3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HomelessGal wrote...

"They were ok with the apocalypse until it turned out they would also be inconvenienced"

That has just gone in my list of favorite quotes.

[JGDD]

True. But Geth do not think like organics. So perhaps it made sense to them in some way not comprehensible to us. I don't know, but I'm not holding it against them until I know more.

[Omega4RelayResident]

The Geth split into two factions correct? You have True Geth (Legion's) faction and the Heretics.

Legion said that the Heretics wanted Reaper technonology and that is why they sided with the Reapers in ME1. Legion never said that the Heretics were indoctrinated... not one hint was dropped that the Geth can even become indoctrinated.

I think that the Geth will be incredible ally's in ME3. If they can not become indoctrinated that is going to be a huge plus. After all Geth do have the ability override any hacking attempts made against their mobile platforms. The Heretics used Reaper technology to create the "brainwashing virus" that they were going to use against the True Geth, I can rationally deduce that this only is plausible because the Heretics know how Geth minds work and that "was" the only way to indoctrinate the Geth.

I used the virus to reprogram the Heretics to join the True Geth once again. It was the Paragon choice after all. Legion deleted all copies of the original Virus. Having the Heretics join Legion's Geth might give the Geth the collective perspective that organics were wronged by the Heretics and now its time to make amends. On the other hand the downside is that Legion's Geth might see the Heretics being correct and they end up joining the Reapers after all.

I am willing to take the chance based on what the Geth possible future. Having the Heretics join Legion's Geth brings them closer to completing their upload to their "Dyson Sphere" project. If humanity has the Geth on their side with a big as all hell "Death Star" on their hands... that will make a huge dent in the war effort. If you think about it... all Geth uploaded to a planet sized sphere... more than likely has weapons... and they are organic friendly... Reapers are gonna be hurting after that... big time.

Based on those decisions and speculations I sent Project Overlord back to the Alliance so that they could take care of him. I never ever truster Cerberus... in game or out of game... I do not want Cerberus to have a way to control Geth. It was also the Paragon choice so I might as well stick with it. Hopefully the Alliance can help the dude. Also the guy was perpetually crying... I cant let Cerberus continue what they were doing to him. I need to have faith that Legion fell in love with me and wont let me down in ME3.

[BlueMagitek]

You can't really judge an option just because it's the Paragon option. >_>

Heck, letting Balak go is a paragon option. Letting Fist go is paragon. Making an entire assignment worthless is a paragon option. You should choose your options based on what you (or your Shepard, really) believes is right, not because it's blue or red.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Come on everybody, chill out. ~_^

So, did we go over the Overlord decision? Given Legion, I think it's best that we don't do it; while being able to control / communicate with Geth is significant, it would likely attract the ire of the Geth. I don't think they'd take kindly to an organic race with the ability to control them, especially given their history with the Quarians.

The moment those geth chose to follow Sovereign, they gave up any and all 'rights' I would otherwise consider them to have.

So what you are saying is that once a race becomes indoctrinated they lose the right to live?

Matriarch Benezia = No rights for Asari
Saren Arturius = No rights for Turians
Dr. Quian, The whole Arrival DLC = No rights for Humans
Virmire = No rights for Krogan

By your logic you leave the universe to the Hannar, Salarians, Elcor, and the Volus..... um what?

[Omega4RelayResident]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You can't really judge an option just because it's the Paragon option. >_>

Heck, letting Balak go is a paragon option. Letting Fist go is paragon. Making an entire assignment worthless is a paragon option. You should choose your options based on what you (or your Shepard, really) believes is right, not because it's blue or red.

Those options were not Blue or Red...they were white along the right side of the conversation wheel my main Shep is in all honesty all the way Paragon with only a few Renegade choices. My Shep fights for freedom and peace... if there is a peacefull solution then he takes it. Experimentation on people for my Shep and my self personally is wrong. IN GAME Kaidan Alenko told me of the crap he had to go through with the L2 implants and I felt bad for him. I saw what they did to Jack in the Teltin facility. We dont need another "Subject Zero" all pissed off that can control the Geth. My Paragon Shep did not allow Garus to take the shot on Sidonis for example not because I dont care if Sidonis dies or not, but because I do not want Garus to become what he hates.

In addition Legion showed me the value of Geth and how the Geth are. In ME2 Legion was absolutely the biggest plot twist I never saw comming. During the American Civil War would you apply the fact that all Americans are "bad" because of the actions of the South? Or would you understand that everyone has the capability for all things good or bad?

Dont get me wrong I have one Shep profile that is all Renegade and that is the "no loose ends" profile. I dont make choices just because they are blue. I have another Shepard profile that is MOSTLY Paragon.... when it comes to politics and such but in that one that Shep also realizes some people are too dangerous to let live.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 30 août 2011 - 03:51 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Come on everybody, chill out. ~_^

So, did we go over the Overlord decision? Given Legion, I think it's best that we don't do it; while being able to control / communicate with Geth is significant, it would likely attract the ire of the Geth. I don't think they'd take kindly to an organic race with the ability to control them, especially given their history with the Quarians.

The moment those geth chose to follow Sovereign, they gave up any and all 'rights' I would otherwise consider them to have.

So what you are saying is that once a race becomes indoctrinated they lose the right to live?

Matriarch Benezia = No rights for Asari
Saren Arturius = No rights for Turians
Dr. Quian, The whole Arrival DLC = No rights for Humans
Virmire = No rights for Krogan

By your logic you leave the universe to the Hannar, Salarians, Elcor, and the Volus..... um what?

Not how I said " those geth", not all geth. Also, they were the only ones to specifically choose to follow Sovereign, whereas Benezia tried to keep Saren from the inevitable path of destruction but ended up indoctrinated. Indoctrination isn't a willing choice, there's the main difference.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Heretics weren't indoctrinated though....

[111987]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

*snip*

I am willing to take the chance based on what the Geth possible future. Having the Heretics join Legion's Geth brings them closer to completing their upload to their "Dyson Sphere" project. If humanity has the Geth on their side with a big as all hell "Death Star" on their hands... that will make a huge dent in the war effort. If you think about it... all Geth uploaded to a planet sized sphere... more than likely has weapons... and they are organic friendly... Reapers are gonna be hurting after that... big time.

Just want to point out a Dyson Sphere is not like a Death Star; they do not traditionally have weapons as far as I believe. Personally I don't want all the Geth uploading into their megastructure until after the Reapers are defeated; otherwise, we just lost a MASSIVE army. Unless that megastructure can hack Reapers, or take out their shields or something, they better put a hold on their transcendence.

[Kaiser Shepard]

 Note how I said "they were the only ones to specifically choose to follow Sovereign" 

A question for those who chose the the Paragon decision in Overlord: what aspect of the project made you come to the conclusion that the plug needed to be pulled, the means that is forcing another human to 'merge' with a VI or the ends that is dominating other sentients/sapients?

[Golden Owl]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

 Note how I said "they were the only ones to specifically choose to follow Sovereign" 

A question for those who chose the the Paragon decision in Overlord: what aspect of the project made you come to the conclusion that the plug needed to be pulled, the means that is forcing another human to 'merge' with a VI or the ends that is dominating other sentients/sapients?

The shere cruelty and abuse of an autistic man floored me...I hadn't cried at all during any ME scenes, but I lost it on that one...was frozen in shock the first time I saw it....surely there must have been a better way than the extreme cruelty and abuse he was going through...you did see the way he was trussed up right?...the arms, the eyes, his begging for quiet?....I have no problem with encouraging him to communicate with the Geth and looking for a solution to the Geth problem...but that was just NO!...That was a whole new level of sickness.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 31 août 2011 - 06:42 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

@ Humanoid_Typhoon

Yes you are right the Heretics joined Sovereign of their own accord... from what Legion said True Geth choose not to follow Sovereign... which seems like they can not be indoctrinated at all... the Heretics joined because Sovereign promised them a quick and easy path to their end goal.

@ 111987

True a Dyson Sphere theoretically would not have weapons... however I assume the Geth would arm it because they know the "old machines" are comming and they would have to defend them selves. Hence the "Death Star" refrence. If they dont arm themselves against the Reapers even just to defend themselves then I have lost all faith in the fact that an AI could be superior to an organic when it comes to thought processes. I envisioned it to be like Galactus comming to help organics instead of destroying them.

@ Golden Owl

I feel the same way... I mean I learned about the sick s*** the N@zis did to children with experimentation in school... specifically twins and such. That was on the same exact level. I have no problem with Cerberus being declared the space N@zis in the ME universe. Subject Zero... Overlord... Paul Grayson... Rachni Shock Troop experiment... all of it is some sick s***. I realy want to get a chance to put a bullet in between TIM's baby blues.

EDIT: Apparently N@zis is a word that gets censored. WTF. Its in the Dictionary and History books. Grow the f*** up moderators. We are having an intelligent conversation here. No one is being offensive.

@ Kaiser Shepard

Everything I have done in ME2 told me it was the right choice. First of all on my main Shep profile I never replay it... I think about what I would do and I do it. I do not try to go through logistics to control the outcome in ME3. My main is far too sacred to be controlled in such a way.

When Legion told me about the history and plans of true Geth I found that they have a right to cooexist with us. Legion also said that it is racist to treat the geth the same way you would treat an organic race. You can not apply the same rules to each race... examples:

Speaking impersonally and politely with the Hannar
Headbutting a Kroagan is an appropriate form of communication
Rewritting millions Geth concious minds is far more "humane" than actually destroying all of them

So basically if I re-wrote the Heretics into re-joining the true Geth there is no need to controll the Geth any more. Legion seems to be fascinated by Shepard. It also seems like Legion is up front and honest with Shep. If he asked me if I believe he has a soul I could honestly tell him "Yes". I could not break Legion's trust in me by allowing project Overlord to go on.

Also do I realy want to let Cerberus control the Geth? If the Geth were hostile... maybe. Hovever not at the cost of a person's suffering. Besides project Overlord was technically communicating with the Geth... in the effort to establish control. We dont know if the control was absolute, if the Geth were just trying to help the poor guy, or even if Project Overlord was only capable of controling machines. I actually had Legion with me during the entire mission and not once did he cut in to tell me there was still a Geth conciousness inside of those mobile platforms. For all we know those could have been long dead shells of the Geth and the AI inside was dead, or even just incapable of sentient thought. After all they did find the Geth ship crashed... if that ship had been there for 100 years already who knows how degraded the AI processes were... those could have been "autistic" Geth in there that Overlord was controlling or communicating with.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 31 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[JGDD]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

A question for those who chose the the Paragon decision in Overlord: what aspect of the project made you come to the conclusion that the plug needed to be pulled, the means that is forcing another human to 'merge' with a VI or the ends that is dominating other sentients/sapients?

Neither...it was the initial answer the doc gave to Shep when he asked what was going on there. Mans reach exceeding his grasp. There may have been some gains to come from the experiment, but it seems pretty apparent that for the time being they need to pursue other avenues of research before they attempt these kinds of tests. They put the cart before the horse.

If I'm forced to choose between the two given examples I'd pick the latter. We still do not know the exact motives of the Geth as a whole and I'd gamble on learning more before making what could be an unrecoverable change. Humans have always experimented on other humans and David's role, while grim, is nothing new.

Modifié par justgimmedudedammit, 31 août 2011 - 05:16 .

[Seboist]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

A question for those who chose the the Paragon decision in Overlord: what aspect of the project made you come to the conclusion that the plug needed to be pulled, the means that is forcing another human to 'merge' with a VI or the ends that is dominating other sentients/sapients?

Neither...it was the initial answer the doc gave to Shep when he asked what was going on there. Mans reach exceeding his grasp. There may have been some gains to come from the experiment, but it seems pretty apparent that for the time being they need to pursue other avenues of research before they attempt these kinds of tests. They put the cart before the horse.

If I'm forced to choose between the two given examples I'd pick the latter. We still do not know the exact motives of the Geth as a whole and I'd gamble on learning more before making what could be an unrecoverable change. Humans have always experimented on other humans and David's role, while grim, is nothing new.

That's how it was with me in my canon shepard playthrough. She/I were worried about the risks primarily with David's treatment being a secondary concern.

In retrospect after clearly thinking things through without the sudden shock and emotions keeping David in Overlord is the better choice and thankfully I have my pseudo-canon Shepard for that.

[JGDD]

Seboist wrote...

In retrospect after clearly thinking things through without the sudden shock and emotions keeping David in Overlord is the better choice and thankfully I have my pseudo-canon Shepard for that.

I do the same. The game is there to be explored fully and I'm not so egotistical to believe that only one outcome is the proper outcome. Like it to pay off in ME3 with the imported saves and different dialogue based on the choices, too.

[nitefyre410]

Golden Owl wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

 Note how I said "they were the only ones to specifically choose to follow Sovereign" 

A question for those who chose the the Paragon decision in Overlord: what aspect of the project made you come to the conclusion that the plug needed to be pulled, the means that is forcing another human to 'merge' with a VI or the ends that is dominating other sentients/sapients?

The shere cruelty and abuse of an autistic man floored me...I hadn't cried at all during any ME scenes, but I lost it on that one...was frozen in shock the first time I saw it....surely there must have been a better way than the extreme cruelty and abuse he was going through...you did see the way he was trussed up right?...the arms, the eyes, his begging for quiet?....I have no problem with encouraging him to communicate with the Geth and looking for a solution to the Geth problem...but that was just NO!...That was a whole new level of sickness.

 

Oh i was so angry  being one of the four brothers  I was like "How can you do that your Brother"    but once I calmed down some  and Kudos to Archer voice actor  -  Archer I believe regretted what he did   and  him living with  guilt  its more punishment than anything that I can inflict on him.   David and  in some ways Archer are nothing more than victims of TIM and the list is getting  rather long.   TIM  seems to get people around him that he knows in the end will  cave to his pressure for resaults and not push back..  Does that absolve Archer  in the words of Jamie Foxx  in Law Abiding Citizen -  **** NO.     My Shepard  shut overlord down - sent  TIM and nice  email saying **** you and one day is he going to go a bridge far and I'm going to be there to nail his ass to wall. 
 

[Omega4RelayResident]

Okay I understand why people answer the way they do and make choices in the game the way they do. Its only a game.

But put your self honestly in Shepard's shoes... pretend for one second you actually ran into this. Would you allow Archer to keep doing this to David? Think of it as a RL scenario.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 31 août 2011 - 07:53 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Okay I understand why people answer the way they do and make choices in the game the way they do. Its only a game.

But put your self honestly in Shepard's shoes... pretend for one second you actually ran into this. Would you allow Archer to keep doing this to David? Think of it as a RL scenario.

Philosophical discussion. Interesting.

While it is true that Shepard has killed countless enemies without a blink of an eye, to me the choice is clear. Save David. What was being done to him was an atrocity. It was more than "just another Cerberus screw up" that you were cleaning up. This is a living breathing human. He was autistic, and was probably "persuaded" (lied to) to go into that equipment. All for the advancement of science. You also have moments, like to give that sick Batarian a dose of medigel, or that Salarian at the Dantius tower a dose, perhaps not killing those Batarians after they release Mordin's assistant, not killing Maelon. Sidonis? Even Samara would go along with Garrus.

Yes there is a galaxy at stake. The Reapers are coming. Yet, if you fail here and choose to sacrifice the innocent like this, it makes you a monster. If becoming a monsters is what it is going to take to "save the galaxy" then perhaps we don't deserve to survive.

Or as Samara said on the SM: "If you adapt the methods of your enemy you have not truly defeated them." An interesting paraphrase of Nietzsche "When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." You have become them. TIM has become the enemy. Even Miranda can see this.

Maybe I'm reading Overlord wrong, but I see a direct tie in with the SM. I believe TIM wants the CB for one purpose. To build a Reaper, and instead of using goo to make the brain  of the reaper, to use this instead (a human VI interface) and build the reaper around it, and knowing TIM there would be a control chip implanted, as if that would do any good long term. One person should not have that much power. They would continue to perform the experiments on David seeing how many program platforms he could handle without a psychotic break, which would mean a psychotic break would have to happen and you'd have another Cerberus screw up.

So does your Shepard believe totally that the end justifies the means regardless of what awaits at the end? Or does your Shepard believe that only sometimes the end can justify the means, but only if there is something to justify the end?

And this is why I blew up the base except on one playthrough.

Now I know someone is going to go to Arrival on this. Sacrificing 300,000 Batarians is the same thing. But think, those 300,000 Batarians were to be spiked and turned into husks by the arriving Reaper fleet that was only a few minutes from that system. They were dead anyway. Your suit recording of you trying to reach the Batarians might help you in your trial, though.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Remember what you said to TIM when you decided to blow up the CB?

"I wont let the Reaper threat compromise who I am"

I want to save as many people in the Galaxy as I can... but I wont become a monster to do it.

[JGDD]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Okay I understand why people answer the way they do and make choices in the game the way they do. Its only a game.

But put your self honestly in Shepard's shoes... pretend for one second you actually ran into this. Would you allow Archer to keep doing this to David? Think of it as a RL scenario.

Wouldn't be much different from the canon choice I made in the game. He was sent to academy for treatment.

One glaring omission from the game was the third choice. Put them both down. Harsh? Yes. Viable option? Very much so. Archer continuing with these experiments is almost a given. David being traumatized as much as he has been...would be mercy to end his suffering. Would I have taken this path for canon? Probably not. For ng+ I certainly would have.

[Urazz]

JukeFrog wrote...

Personally I found destroying the base to be more insulting to the memory of the colonists than keeping it.

For me it was more of a matter of can I trust the Illusive Man with the base or not.  I don't so I destroyed it.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Urazz wrote...

JukeFrog wrote...

Personally I found destroying the base to be more insulting to the memory of the colonists than keeping it.

For me it was more of a matter of can I trust the Illusive Man with the base or not.  I don't so I destroyed it.

THIS

[Omega4RelayResident]

Im sure you can