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[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spies cannot take over nations.
TIM cerantly doesn't have the funds for that (especialyo since any nation he would go up agaisnt has a thousand time more funds), and I didn't seem him buy and hearts and minds...

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/STG

"These include the Ever Alert, who kept armies at bay with hidden facts; another, known as the Silent Step, was so successful he once defeated a nation with a single shot."

[Lotion Soronarr]

Gabey5 wrote...

cerberus is full of morons, the alliance is full of morons... they would have been indoctrinated

If there was a reaper indcotriantion device in the CB..wihout some kind of protection, anyone would eventually get indoctrinated.

Yet, you cannot learn how to fight indoctrination without studying it. And you know when the reapers come, they're going to use it agaisnt you. So you might as well go ahead and research any reaper tech.

In that context, is letting several scientist become indoctrinated (which will take week or moths) a high price to pay?
You should get something out of that research before they're fully gone, and maybe even find a way to prevent indoctrination.

[xXljoshlXx]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Which do you think is more amoral destroying the heretics or rewriting them?

that would kinda depend if you consider the geth to be truly sentient in the first place....

And since we're talking about choices.

If you choose to blow up the base...how do you jsutify saving the Rachnii queen? Teh rachnii are a even greater threat to the gaalxy if tehy double-cross you than Cerberus ever will be.

One of the main reason i asked about the heretic situation is it is a similar situation to the collector base

-Valuable Asset against reapors

-Trust can factor in your decision

-Moral involvement

The rachni decision also fits 

I'm wondering if people contradicted theirselves(I know i did.)

Modifié par xXljoshlXx, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Spies cannot take over nations.
TIM cerantly doesn't have the funds for that (especialyo since any nation he would go up agaisnt has a thousand time more funds), and I didn't seem him buy and hearts and minds...

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/STG

"These include the Ever Alert, who kept armies at bay with hidden facts; another, known as the Silent Step, was so successful he once defeated a nation with a single shot."

assasination. Pft. Big deal.


Tell me, did that spy also take over the same nation? no.. well, we have nothing to talk about then..

[efrgfhnm_]

SandTrout wrote...

Ouch.. Why is the only reason to destroy the base "self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism"? Not trusting Ceberus, who do turn out to betray you later, how is that blubbering idealism?

Because there is no indication that in ME2 that TIM is going to betray you in the near future. This is one of the reasons that the reveal that 40% of ME3's enemies were Cerberus caused such a shock in the community, one that we are still attempting to resolve.

Note that this is a morality discussion, so discussing facts that were not available in the context of the decision is poor form.

Ok then, Cerberus didn't exactly have a good track record in ME2, did they? While they didn't give indications of betraying by then, they did show many signs of being totally incompetent. In ME they accidentally let loose rachni. They are shown to be infiltrated by traitors, their projects constantly fail and cause deaths of not only project members, but potentially civillians. The Illusive Man has also been shown to be unaware of what operatives are doing, resulting in them going behind his back. The betrayal shouldn't have been such a big surprise, considering the fact that almost all the endings, even when the base is saved, result in Shep being very confrontational, and saying that he doesn't need his help etc.
And if you read the books, betrayal is almost over done, whic should give you even less reason to trust TIM and Ceberus

Modifié par efrgfhnm , 31 juillet 2011 - 11:38 .

[Someone With Mass]

SandTrout wrote...

Ouch.. Why is the only reason to destroy the base "self-rightous arrogance and blubbering idealism"? Not trusting Ceberus, who do turn out to betray you later, how is that blubbering idealism?

Because there is no indication that in ME2 that TIM is going to betray you in the near future. This is one of the reasons that the reveal that 40% of ME3's enemies were Cerberus caused such a shock in the community, one that we are still attempting to resolve.

Note that this is a morality discussion, so discussing facts that were not available in the context of the decision is poor form.

A shock?

I saw that event coming a mile away. Not only because I read the books, where "betrayal" is the name of the game, but also because someone at BioWare clealy got a hard-on the size of the Leaning Tower in Pisa for Cerberus.

[Lotion Soronarr]

xXljoshlXx wrote...
One of the main reason i asked about the heretic situation is it is a similar situation to the collector base

-Valuable Asset against reapors

-Trust can factor in your decision

-Moral involvement

The rachni decision also fits 

I'm wondering if people contradicted theirselves

Oh they do..they do.

Bias tends to twist how one evaluates data. Or should I say, weighs data.

For example, if you hate TIM, you will disbelief everythnig he sez and not treat anything as factual. While at the same time, you will treat everything the Rachnii queen sez as a fact, becasue you feel simpathy for her plight.

Thus, one must distance oneself from the objects of the debate, which is not an easy thing to do.


I confess, I did save the rachnii queen on my playtrough...I'm regreting I did that now, as my mercy overpowered my risk/benefit analysis..

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

assasination. Pft. Big deal.


Tell me, did that spy also take over the same nation? no.. well, we have nothing to talk about then..

He defeated an entire nation.

What part of that is your gullible mind unable to understand?

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

For example, if you hate TIM, you will disbelief everythnig he sez and not treat anything as factual. While at the same time, you will treat everything the Rachnii queen sez as a fact, becasue you feel simpathy for her plight.

I don't see how "Hates TIM" inevitably means "Digs Rachni".  Not everyone goes pure Paragon or pure Renegade.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

assasination. Pft. Big deal.


Tell me, did that spy also take over the same nation? no.. well, we have nothing to talk about then..

He defeated an entire nation.

What part of that is your gullible mind unable to understand?

Poetic expresion? Overblowing stuff? did those ever occur to you.

Not to mention that you cna ...technicly defeat a nation.. If you kill a despotic leader and he is replaced by another, who basicly changes the country. It's technicly a new nation..possibly even with a new flag, name and anthem.

But you didn't really take that nation over or defeat it. It sjtu re-organzed itself.

[Lotion Soronarr]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

For example, if you hate TIM, you will disbelief everythnig he sez and not treat anything as factual. While at the same time, you will treat everything the Rachnii queen sez as a fact, becasue you feel simpathy for her plight.

I don't see how "Hates TIM" inevitably means "Digs Rachni".  Not everyone goes pure Paragon or pure Renegade.

Example man.
Never said everyone who does 1 aboutmaticly does 2. That would really be reaching and making too braod a generalization.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Absolutely yes. Odds change with the weapon tech.

If it takes 20 shots to take down a reaper shield instead of 50, then the odds have gone way up.

That is, if the Reaper, or any of its brethren don't shoot you down after the first shot, in which case, it's pointless either way.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:31 .

[Phaelducan]

Feh on semantic arguments. Total waste of time and energy. Just move on.

As to the question of morality, the Rachni Queen is not comparable to the Collector's Base. Saving the Rachni Queen is quite possibly a huge tactical military benefit for humanity (though paragon). Blowing up the Collector's Base is purposefully destroying a potential military asset for the "greater good" (though also paragon).

Apples and Oranges. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard could have equally viable reasons for sparing the Rachni. Not so for the Collector's Base.

[xXljoshlXx]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

xXljoshlXx wrote...
One of the main reason i asked about the heretic situation is it is a similar situation to the collector base

-Valuable Asset against reapors

-Trust can factor in your decision

-Moral involvement

The rachni decision also fits 

I'm wondering if people contradicted theirselves

Oh they do..they do.

Bias tends to twist how one evaluates data. Or should I say, weighs data.

For example, if you hate TIM, you will disbelief everythnig he sez and not treat anything as factual. While at the same time, you will treat everything the Rachnii queen sez as a fact, becasue you feel simpathy for her plight.

Thus, one must distance oneself from the objects of the debate, which is not an easy thing to do.


I confess, I did save the rachnii queen on my playtrough...I'm regreting I did that now, as my mercy overpowered my risk/benefit analysis..

I really hope the poeple who were consitant get rewarded and the people who werent are punished

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Poetic expresion? Overblowing stuff? did those ever occur to you.

Not to mention that you cna ...technicly defeat a nation.. If you kill a despotic leader and he is replaced by another, who basicly changes the country. It's technicly a new nation..possibly even with a new flag, name and anthem.

But you didn't really take that nation over or defeat it. It sjtu re-organzed itself.

Yes, but in the time of disarray, someone can move troops in to secure critical parts of the nation.

A nation's body isn't as important as its head.

[xXljoshlXx]

Phaelducan wrote...

Feh on semantic arguments. Total waste of time and energy. Just move on.

As to the question of morality, the Rachni Queen is not comparable to the Collector's Base. Saving the Rachni Queen is quite possibly a huge tactical military benefit for humanity (though paragon). Blowing up the Collector's Base is purposefully destroying a potential military asset for the "greater good" (though also paragon).

Apples and Oranges. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard could have equally viable reasons for sparing the Rachni. Not so for the Collector's Base.

You can make a paragon one for keepng the base

By the keeping the base the people who were captured by the collectors mean something and helped you out in the end instead of destroying the base making their deaths worthless

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Poetic expresion? Overblowing stuff? did those ever occur to you.

Not to mention that you cna ...technicly defeat a nation.. If you kill a despotic leader and he is replaced by another, who basicly changes the country. It's technicly a new nation..possibly even with a new flag, name and anthem.

But you didn't really take that nation over or defeat it. It sjtu re-organzed itself.

Yes, but in the time of disarray, someone can move troops in to secure critical parts of the nation.

A nation's body isn't as important as its head.

Only if you have enough troops to actually do the job...and and surive any outside involvment (like other nations having issues with what youre doing)


As I said before. Cerberus is much like Blackwater. If you think Blackwater can take over the US, then you're delluding yourself.
Cerberus cannot take over any nation, race or planet.

[Phaelducan]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Feh on semantic arguments. Total waste of time and energy. Just move on.

As to the question of morality, the Rachni Queen is not comparable to the Collector's Base. Saving the Rachni Queen is quite possibly a huge tactical military benefit for humanity (though paragon). Blowing up the Collector's Base is purposefully destroying a potential military asset for the "greater good" (though also paragon).

Apples and Oranges. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard could have equally viable reasons for sparing the Rachni. Not so for the Collector's Base.

You can make a paragon one for keepng the base

By the keeping the base the people who were captured by the collectors mean something and helped you out in the end instead of destroying the base making their deaths worthless

No life to spare with the base though. With the Rachni paragon shep is doing the goody goody thing to preserve the species, with the base the damage is already done and those people are already dead. There is no greater good to preserve at that point, it's just utilizing resources that have already been gained at a blood price (which I view as the Renegade interpretation, not Paragon).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaelducan wrote...

Feh on semantic arguments. Total waste of time and energy. Just move on.

As to the question of morality, the Rachni Queen is not comparable to the Collector's Base. Saving the Rachni Queen is quite possibly a huge tactical military benefit for humanity (though paragon). Blowing up the Collector's Base is purposefully destroying a potential military asset for the "greater good" (though also paragon).

Apples and Oranges. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard could have equally viable reasons for sparing the Rachni. Not so for the Collector's Base.

And if hte Rachnii betray you? Or if they get indoctrinated?
You just unleashed an entier army on the galaxy - an army far larget than anything Cerberus can hope for. And an army that has warships to boot.

I quote:
The rachni were alarmingly powerful, having massive strength in
numbers, and extremely hostile. Negotiation with the rachni was
impossible; their leaders, the rachni queens, dwelt in deep underground nests, on worlds so hostile no one could survive them.
This period saw the Citadel races fight a losing war against the rachni for nearly a century

The combined citadel races...a loosing war. Let that simmer in your head a bit.


You have to take all possible outtcomes of any decision into consideration.
If you compltely dismiss the negative consequences othe Racnii choice and at the same time overblow the negative consequences of the CB choice.... how can you claim rationality?

[Candidate 88766]

I gave the Rachni a second chance by sparing them.
I gave the Council a second chance by saving them.
I even gave the heretic Geth a second chance by rejoining them with the rest of the Geth.

I gave TIM and Cerberus a second chance by working with them, but throughout the game TIM seemed to try everything possible to kill Shepard. Effectively tipping the Collector's off about Horizon, leading him into a trap with the Collector ship. I gave TIM more than enough chances, and he repeatedly blew it. The Collector Base, while a potentially invaluable asset, was not something I could trust TIM with. The Council or the Alliance perhaps, but not TIM after his repeated attempts to lure Shepard into danger. Maybe TIM had his reasons, but I don't trust him with something as potentially powerful as the Base. In the right hands it could be a decisive weapon, but in the wrong hands it could be far too dangerous and as far as I'm concerned (at least with my main Shep) TIM's hands are the wrong hands.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:44 .

[Lumikki]

Phaelducan wrote...

Feh on semantic arguments. Total waste of time and energy. Just move on.

As to the question of morality, the Rachni Queen is not comparable to the Collector's Base. Saving the Rachni Queen is quite possibly a huge tactical military benefit for humanity (though paragon). Blowing up the Collector's Base is purposefully destroying a potential military asset for the "greater good" (though also paragon).

Apples and Oranges. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard could have equally viable reasons for sparing the Rachni. Not so for the Collector's Base.

Both Rachni queen or Collector base situation are same to me, both can be good or bad thing. Because there is no way to know which direction it goes in future.

You seem to look like "knowledge" as military benefit, is worth of saving in all cases?

Lets make example, you find place where some mad doctor has invented a lot of new ways to torture people. Now do you still think that it's more important the learn the knowledge or destroy it to prevent it to be used?

Point of course was that while knowledge in generaly is good thing, not every knowledge is good. Because some knowledge can be used to do bad things.  So, sometimes it's moral decission, is this knowledge good to keep or will it be used bad ways. Also every technolgy knowledge affects also what direction we go, so it's also question is this direction where we want to go.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:56 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

For example, if you hate TIM, you will disbelief everythnig he sez and not treat anything as factual. While at the same time, you will treat everything the Rachnii queen sez as a fact, becasue you feel simpathy for her plight.

Actually, if I don't trust TIM, that means I won't immediately believe everything he says and just take his word for it. Cynicism and doubts can be a good thing sometimes.

And the rachni queen is an entirely different situation, because she's the last of her species. TIM is not. Just because the krogans commited genocide on the rachni before doesn't make it right to do it again.

And I have already stated my opinion on the matter, so if you can stop bringing that crap up and come forth with things that are actually relevant to the topic at hand, that'd be great.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As I said before. Cerberus is much like Blackwater. If you think Blackwater can take over the US, then you're delluding yourself.
Cerberus cannot take over any nation, race or planet.

No, but they can still do serious damage. As they have been very close to do many times before.

If they can't even handle something like a dead Reaper or the geth without getting themselves killed and nearly jeopardize the entire mission/galaxy (that Reaper would've been a great source of technology and information if Cerberus wasn't formed of a band of incompetent and lobotomized clowns), then why the hell should I think they can handle something like the Collector base?

[xXljoshlXx]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

For example, if you hate TIM, you will disbelief everythnig he sez and not treat anything as factual. While at the same time, you will treat everything the Rachnii queen sez as a fact, becasue you feel simpathy for her plight.

Actually, if I don't trust TIM, that means I won't immediately believe everything he says and just take his word for it. Cynicism and doubts can be a good thing sometimes.

And the rachni queen is an entirely different situation, because she's the last of her species. TIM is not. Just because the krogans commited genocide on the rachni before doesn't make it right to do it again.

And I have already stated my opinion on the matter, so if you can stop bringing that crap up and come forth with things that are actually relevant to the topic at hand, that'd be great.

You mean the arguement that has gotten nowhere and won't get anywhere?
Which is why I'm trying to get other input on other morality decision because this won't go anywhere

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

As per Javier's instructions, here is new topic to discuss the Collector Base decision and other moral aspects of the Mass Effect universe. The title is a nod to a post Arcian made in the old topic, in which he said it would blend well with the Renegade content of the topic. In a twist of irony, I've decided to name the new topic just that, since I feel that one's own views decide which side is the delusional one.

Please keep the insults to a minumum this time, guys, or Jav will have to swoop in on us again. And swooping... well, swooping is bad.

The previous topic can be found here.

 
 I want to see what people have to say on other decisons the current one is stuck 

[Phaelducan]

You are assuming that every military decision is made without any semblance of a gamble or calculated risk. Yeah, saving the Rachni could have dire consequences and plunge the galaxy into another costly war that it can ill afford.

It could also give you an incredible ally, possibly more powerful than any other force in the galaxy (including humanity).

The choice was made quickly, and under duress. You had a choice, and one way or another, you walked out of there with +28 paragon or renegade points. All I'm saying is that the concept of a superior military advantage could have entered into a paragon shep's mind as easily as renegade.

You can't make decisions with foresight of the consequences. You make the best choice you can, for the reasons you think are best. If it goes to hell... deal with it then (and who knows, maybe in ME3 saving the Rachni DOES have dire consequences).