3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Okay I understand why people answer the way they do and make choices in the game the way they do. Its only a game.

But put your self honestly in Shepard's shoes... pretend for one second you actually ran into this. Would you allow Archer to keep doing this to David? Think of it as a RL scenario.

RL?....Then my Shep would have shot Gavin Archer....put him out of his brothers misery.

The question was posed for you. Not Shep. Just in the same role. Murdering the doc, no matter how right it seems, is not the real world answer...at least for most well adjusted individuals.

No...I would not allow Gavin Archer to continue his experiment...as to what lengths I would go to stop him....that would depend on how easily he backs down...my one objective would remain to stop him....as far as I am concerned, like some un-named criminal acts in RL....there are those that forfeit their own rights in what they choose to do to others.

[JGDD]

Golden Owl wrote...

No...I would not allow Gavin Archer to continue his experiment...as to what lengths I would go to stop him....that would depend on how easily he backs down...my one objective would remain to stop him....as far as I am concerned, like some un-named criminal acts in RL....there are those that forfeit their own rights in what they choose to do to others.

How easily he backs down is already a given. We're dealing with the confines of the game setting but facing it in a RL scenario. I should also add that I'm not stopping him because of what he did to his brother. That damage is done. I'm stopping him because he admits they do not understand what they are dealing with. Which, personally, is far more dangerous than him cramming tubes and wires into the kid.

[eye basher]

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

[111987]

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

[Omega4RelayResident]

111987 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

^ This

[Kaiser Shepard]

111987 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

So you play Overlord after recuiting Legion from the derelict Reaper? Interesting...

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 02 septembre 2011 - 03:18 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Seboist wrote...

Izhalezan wrote...

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Nothing.... I had Legion with me during that mission and he said nothing either.... just that David can Communicate with the Geth in their own language.

Yeah, i found it a little odd that Legion added nothing to Overlord but Archer going "Hes not gonna be mad, is he bro?"

That's just part of the broader issue of squadmates not having voiced dialogue in the DLCs.

Really? because Kasumi would not STFU during Firewalker... every time a scan was done or the VI said something she had something to add... for a stealthy thief she does not quite understand the value of silence

[111987]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

111987 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

So you play Overlord after recuiting Legion from the derelict Reaper? Interesting...

Well, on most of my playthroughs, because I didn't have access to DLC's for about 6 months after I got the game, so I did all the DLC's last.

[JGDD]

General rambling follows...

Part of the Overlord problem is how BW presented it. They went for the GASP! factor at the end with David doing his best Clockwork Orange impersonation. But who's to say a comfortable setting using an isolation tank wouldn't have worked as well? However, as is, the result is a direct emotional response from the player. Neat trick, but some of us can see through these mirages of the yarn being told and still play pragmatically.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

111987 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

So you play Overlord after recuiting Legion from the derelict Reaper? Interesting...

Well at least one profile you would have to since the DLC came out so much later than the game release.

[Omega4RelayResident]

I personally found it ironic as well when Joker kinda foreshadowed the Project Overlord mission during the Collector assault on the Normandy

Joker: "This is all Joker's fault. What a tool he was. I have to spend all day computing pi because he plugged in the Overlord."

[Golden Owl]

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

I gather then that you will putting your hand up first as a happy experimentee when they come looking again?....Let us know how you go.

[Seboist]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

General rambling follows...

Part of the Overlord problem is how BW presented it. They went for the GASP! factor at the end with David doing his best Clockwork Orange impersonation. But who's to say a comfortable setting using an isolation tank wouldn't have worked as well? However, as is, the result is a direct emotional response from the player. Neat trick, but some of us can see through these mirages of the yarn being told and still play pragmatically.

Yeah, it's clear they were going for shock value. What they did was more dramatic than say, David strapped to a chair and with some VR like helmet on his head.

[JGDD]

Seboist wrote...

Yeah, it's clear they were going for shock value. What they did was more dramatic than say, David strapped to a chair and with some VR like helmet on his head.

It's too bad they didn't take the HAL9000 route with David. Having him calmly talking to you on your way to B.S.U. would have been more of a mind bender for your final decision. Ah well, the things that could have been...

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

Taht's all assumiogn you

a) Talked to Legion about it
have him in your party at all
c) Trust it on it's word

All 3 a big if's. He's the only allegedly "True" geth we've seen. (even tough tehy should consstitue 95% of all geth).
So yeah. I'm not big on trusting anything that toaster sez.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

Taht's all assumiogn you

a) Talked to Legion about it
have him in your party at all
c) Trust it on it's word

All 3 a big if's. He's the only allegedly "True" geth we've seen. (even tough tehy should consstitue 95% of all geth).
So yeah. I'm not big on trusting anything that toaster sez.

As I stated in a subsequent post, I played Overlord after beating all the other missions in the games, kept Legion, and talked to him. And I don't have a reason not to trust him.

I acknowledge though that if you do Overlord before recruiting Legion, it becomes a more difficult situation. Thankfully for my playthroughs, these difficulties did not manifest themselves.

[Seboist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Taht's all assumiogn you

a) Talked to Legion about it
have him in your party at all
c) Trust it on it's word

All 3 a big if's. He's the only allegedly "True" geth we've seen. (even tough tehy should consstitue 95% of all geth).
So yeah. I'm not big on trusting anything that toaster sez.

Indeed, the fact that they kill anybody who ventures into their space and that they didn't care that their heretic brothers were helping the reapers unleash armageddon until it inconvenienced them doesn't win them any trust points in my book. They can only be trusted to be allies against the Reapers and nothing more.

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

111987 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

Back in the old days doctors experimented on people sacrificed babies to develop new treatments back then those people were called monsters because by every right they were but now those treatments that were developed have saved millions of lives.Somtimes in order to fight evil you need to use another kind of evil there comes a time when you have to sacrifice in order to gain that's what it means when they say''the ends justify the means''.

You're right, sometimes that is necesarry. But that isn't the case here. From talks with Legion, we realize we don't even need to control the Geth; they wish no harm to organics and are even willing to ally with organics to fight the Reapers.

So you play Overlord after recuiting Legion from the derelict Reaper? Interesting...

And he (she?) believe Legion's unverifiable claims, and is sufficiently disauded from believing the Geth will ever change their minds and or be in a war with organics in the future?

Interesting interesting. I mean, sure, the Geth were peaceful and isolationist for three hundred years until a good number of them decided not to be. But surely the rest will never change their mind again in the future, right?

[TMA LIVE]

Even if Legion is right about the Geth not wanting war with organics, you have to prepare for the possibility of eventually going to war with them. Because the second they do, and you didn't take steps to prepare for it, you risk losing said war. Thus there's nothing wrong with preparing for a war that might never happen.

However, in the case of Overlord, the way Cerberus is preparing is to completely take over the entire Geth population by using a Human AI under their control. Making them nothing but tools, and tools they can use "for humanity". Then add in the fact of what would happen if they lost control over David again. Then add in the fact that Cerberus can control more then just Geth, and do their own technological apocalypse against their enemies.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 02 septembre 2011 - 02:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Overlord isn't a direct-control of the Geth, it's an appeal to their religious inclinations. A Messiah with a Face, not a chain: they follow because of wanting to, not because they're compelled to.

Geth without religious inclinations (you know, the type Legion is) wouldn't be vulnerable to the sort of appeal Overlord was.

[Ynneas]

In-character, my Shepard chose to free David, because I play a veyr paragon Shep and he wouldn't aprove torturing an innocent person, even if it was supposedly for greater good. True, sometimes you have to choose the lesser evil, like in Arrival where you must sacrifice 300 000 batarian lives to stop the Reapers from using the Alpha Relay (had it not been done, those batrians would've died anyway, and the rest of the galaxy would be doomed aswell). But what Cerberus keeps doing is not the same. They don't even try looking for ways to save everybody, but instead take the easiest way and claim their actions must be justified because they ultimately save lives, because sacrifice is necessary to attain happiness. My Shepard doesn't believe in that. He believes that one should atleast try to find a way to save everybody, and that you can't protect humanity if to do so you must become the very thing you want to protect them from. Maybe he's wrong, but nobody can say he din't try.

Out of character, it's a bit more complicated, but ultimately, I decided that the choise I made was the correct one. Aside from the ethical concerns, the risks involved were just too great. They wanted results quickly so they just strapped David to the machine without knowign what exactly would happen, and look at the results. His mind wasn't able to handle the strain, the geth went berzerk and he almost managed to upload his programming to the extranet and start taking over machines across the galaxy. Sure, they might've been able to get him under control, but there's no quarantee and, this being Cerberus, you can bet they'd just keep pushing their limits and loose control again, and next time there might not be a Shepard to save the day. As Gavin put it, man's reach exeeded his grasp. There's just too many unknown factors and risks involved.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Bottom line these are the two scenarios I believe are involved when it comes to reading into Project Overlord.

1) BioWare put in this DLC to show you the lengths that Cerberus will go... and that nothing is out of the realm of possibility. Okay I get it Cerberus will put its everything into putting Humanity into the dominant position in the Galaxy. This mission basically perma-seals your trust or distrust in TIM.

So basically if you are a supporter of Cerberus this mission shows you that they are capable of achieving any goals and will be valuable to fight the Reapers. All the Cerberus shock-troop experiments they were running means that Cerberus might be able to mind control some forms of life against the Reapers... so far Geth, Thorian Creepers, Husks, and Rachni were used.

I hope that for all of you Cerberus supporters out there there will be an option in ME3 to stop TIM from assimilating Reaper tech into humanity. The Reapers got their start somehow. More than likely by some ambitious creature much like TIM. If Reaper tech still exists in the galaxy at the end of ME3 there is a chance that Humanity would become the "New Reapers" and start the cycle all over again. Its a benign hypothesis is all but I dont want BioWare to ruin the game for you by telling you "Opps you just effed up bro!"

I know why my anti-Cerberus brethren feel the way they do and I applaud you for it. Overlord is the final push that would send me over the edge. I wouldnt rush back to Earth for the trial... between EDI and Miranda I am sure I could find some secret Cerberus instalations on my way back to Earth.

Shep: "Garrus have the scanner probes been filled with explosives?"

Garrus: "Affirmative Shepard."

Shep: "Time to go cripple Cerberus with some orbital bombardment!"

2) The second reason I believe BioWare gave us Project Overlord was to difinitively show us that with out a doubt Cerberus is a bunch of space N@zis.

Casey Hudson: "Hey Mac did you finish that DLC story we were talking about?"

Mac Walters: "Sure did... I cant believe people actually liked Cerberus after all we showed them of what they are capable of."

CH: "Well there are foolish people out there... sometimes you have to spell it out for them."

MW: "I dont like being this blatant in my writting though."

CH: "It doesnt matter... I wonder how many people will support Cerberus after this DLC is released."

MW: "God I hope none... and if after this there still are some I hope they burn in hell!"

CH: "Dont worry about that we are setting up a self destruct device in the disk of ME3 just for those special people."

MW: " 8O "

Oh wait sorry I got carried away... so those are the two reasons I saw for releasing Overlord.

And remember I dont want anything bad to happen to you Cerberus supporters...

<.<

>.>

At all..... XD

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 02 septembre 2011 - 07:20 .

[SpiffySquee]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Deliberately trying to rob your own people of an advantage is treason.

Deliberately allowing one of your own people to suffer cruel and unusual punishment can also be considered treason:?

[Omega4RelayResident]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Deliberately trying to rob your own people of an advantage is treason.

Deliberately allowing one of your own people to suffer cruel and unusual punishment can also be considered treason:?

Yup