3618 réponses à ce sujet

[DDG4005]

My Paragon Shepard always destroyed the base (except for my first playthrough).  I just don't see how keeping technology that dangerous will benefit the galaxy in the fight against the Reapers.

It's wishful thinking that anything in that damn base can be used against its creators.  I don't buy the "ends justifies the means" jargon either.  Handing the Collector base over to Cerberus means they will be more powerful in ME3 (not saying they'll be invincible) and since they'll be hunting Shepard why give them an advantage?  Besides, I don't think the solution to destroying the Reapers will be found in the Collector base but on Mars since the Protheans had an outpost there. I suspect they uncovered a means to defeating the Reapers but were unable to implement it due their population being hunted to extinction by them.  The Collector base is just that: a base.  Keeping it will not yield a victory against the Reapers.

[silentassassin264]

I generally save it. The Reapers built the Mass relays and all that stuff to shape the way civilizations grew but they never intended on their pawns getting the knowledge at that base. We can find out how Reapers are made and can be more easily destroyed with that and the never intended for us to know. We get to break out of the plan they set for us. My Paragons that destroyed it would have still kept it if it was not for the fact that Cerberus was getting it...though technically only the Normandy can still go through the relay so Cerberus still can't reach it without you escorting them. I guess the devs forgot that part.

[JGDD]

SpiffySquee wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Deliberately trying to rob your own people of an advantage is treason.

Deliberately allowing one of your own people to suffer cruel and unusual punishment can also be considered treason:?

Care to elaborate on how you get treasonous ties from the given scenario?

[SpiffySquee]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Deliberately trying to rob your own people of an advantage is treason.

Deliberately allowing one of your own people to suffer cruel and unusual punishment can also be considered treason:?

Care to elaborate on how you get treasonous ties from the given scenario?

Trea·son
noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

Unless the purpose of an alliance solider has changed drastically, part of their duty is to protect their own people. For example:

I am an American Soldier.I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

First three lines of the American soldier's creed. By leaving David there in the hands of brutal and inhuman treatment you are betraying the trust and confidence placed by civilians upon soldiers. Thus, it fits the third meaning of the word Treason.

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[JGDD]

SpiffySquee wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Deliberately trying to rob your own people of an advantage is treason.

Deliberately allowing one of your own people to suffer cruel and unusual punishment can also be considered treason:?

Care to elaborate on how you get treasonous ties from the given scenario?

Trea·son
noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

Unless the purpose of an alliance solider has changed drastically, part of their duty is to protect their own people. For example:

I am an American Soldier.I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

First three lines of the American soldier's creed. By leaving David there in the hands of brutal and inhuman treatment you are betraying the trust or confidence placed by civilians upon soldiers. Thus, it fits the third meaning of the word Treason.

That's fine and dandy if you are an Alliance soldier. In the given scenario, as I asked about, you are not an Alliance soldier. You were never reinstated as one even after talking to Anderson. Treason, in this specific case, is a non-issue.

If it makes you feel any better, this particular case, at best, is felonious in nature. And even that can be a stretch if the experiment was taking place outside of the Citadel/Alliance borders. It's nothing more than a pure emotional decision if you stick to what is presented to you in-game.

[Seboist]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

That's fine and dandy if you are an Alliance soldier. In the given scenario, as I asked about, you are not an Alliance soldier. You were never reinstated as one even after talking to Anderson. Treason, in this specific case, is a non-issue.

If it makes you feel any better, this particular case, at best, is felonious in nature. And even that can be a stretch if the experiment was taking place outside of the Citadel/Alliance borders. It's nothing more than a pure emotional decision if you stick to what is presented to you in-game.

Not only that but if Shepard is a Spectre then s/he answers to the Council not the Alliance.

[111987]

Seboist wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

That's fine and dandy if you are an Alliance soldier. In the given scenario, as I asked about, you are not an Alliance soldier. You were never reinstated as one even after talking to Anderson. Treason, in this specific case, is a non-issue.

If it makes you feel any better, this particular case, at best, is felonious in nature. And even that can be a stretch if the experiment was taking place outside of the Citadel/Alliance borders. It's nothing more than a pure emotional decision if you stick to what is presented to you in-game.

Not only that but if Shepard is a Spectre then s/he answers to the Council not the Alliance.

Wouldn't handing over David to Cerberus, thus giving them a means of communicating/controlling the Geth, be an act of treason against the Council, oh which humanity is a part?

[SpiffySquee]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Deliberately trying to rob your own people of an advantage is treason.

Deliberately allowing one of your own people to suffer cruel and unusual punishment can also be considered treason:?

Care to elaborate on how you get treasonous ties from the given scenario?

Trea·son
noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign.
2. a violation of allegiance to one's sovereign or to one's state.
3. the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

Unless the purpose of an alliance solider has changed drastically, part of their duty is to protect their own people. For example:

I am an American Soldier.I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

First three lines of the American soldier's creed. By leaving David there in the hands of brutal and inhuman treatment you are betraying the trust or confidence placed by civilians upon soldiers. Thus, it fits the third meaning of the word Treason.

That's fine and dandy if you are an Alliance soldier. In the given scenario, as I asked about, you are not an Alliance soldier. You were never reinstated as one even after talking to Anderson. Treason, in this specific case, is a non-issue.

If it makes you feel any better, this particular case, at best, is felonious in nature. And even that can be a stretch if the experiment was taking place outside of the Citadel/Alliance borders. It's nothing more than a pure emotional decision if you stick to what is presented to you in-game.

Suppose you got me there

What I said was in response to Saphra Deden stating that taking an advantage away from your people is treason. Though, under your scenario I guess it would not be either. If he is no longer an alliance member he has no ties to them and the first 2 definitions would not apply to him either.

A thought just occurred to me. Was Shepard ever decommissioned?  The alliance did not admit Shepard was dead and even used him as a poster boy for six months. I would think there would be no public discharge as that would be a dead give away he was... um... dead. So... if Shep was never decommissioned, would he not still be an alliance soldier?

Modifié par SpiffySquee, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[SpiffySquee]

Seboist wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

That's fine and dandy if you are an Alliance soldier. In the given scenario, as I asked about, you are not an Alliance soldier. You were never reinstated as one even after talking to Anderson. Treason, in this specific case, is a non-issue.

If it makes you feel any better, this particular case, at best, is felonious in nature. And even that can be a stretch if the experiment was taking place outside of the Citadel/Alliance borders. It's nothing more than a pure emotional decision if you stick to what is presented to you in-game.

Not only that but if Shepard is a Spectre then s/he answers to the Council not the Alliance.

True. I was arguing that if what Saphra said could be considered treason, then so could leaving him. As was pointed out, neither would be treason :happy:

[JGDD]

111987 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Not only that but if Shepard is a Spectre then s/he answers to the Council not the Alliance.

Wouldn't handing over David to Cerberus, thus giving them a means of communicating/controlling the Geth, be an act of treason against the Council, oh which humanity is a part?

Not necessarily. The council values Shepard's ability to make decisions in the field with whatever data is available. Potentially defeating the reaper with the info gleaned from these tests is one way to play it out. Also, it should be noted that Shep's Spectre status was largely symbolic in ME2. They frankly didn't want to deal with him/her at this time.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

111987 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

That's fine and dandy if you are an Alliance soldier. In the given scenario, as I asked about, you are not an Alliance soldier. You were never reinstated as one even after talking to Anderson. Treason, in this specific case, is a non-issue.

If it makes you feel any better, this particular case, at best, is felonious in nature. And even that can be a stretch if the experiment was taking place outside of the Citadel/Alliance borders. It's nothing more than a pure emotional decision if you stick to what is presented to you in-game.

Not only that but if Shepard is a Spectre then s/he answers to the Council not the Alliance.

Wouldn't handing over David to Cerberus, thus giving them a means of communicating/controlling the Geth, be an act of treason against the Council, oh which humanity is a part?

Council said working with Cerberus was treason by itself,can't imagine giving them a potential superweapon would be any less treasonous

[111987]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

111987 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Not only that but if Shepard is a Spectre then s/he answers to the Council not the Alliance.

Wouldn't handing over David to Cerberus, thus giving them a means of communicating/controlling the Geth, be an act of treason against the Council, oh which humanity is a part?

Not necessarily. The council values Shepard's ability to make decisions in the field with whatever data is available. Potentially defeating the reaper with the info gleaned from these tests is one way to play it out. Also, it should be noted that Shep's Spectre status was largely symbolic in ME2. They frankly didn't want to deal with him/her at this time.

But Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council. Working with them temporarily to end a threat against human colonies is a very different matter than strengthening them by potentially giving them control of the entire Geth forces. Maybe it's just me, but if I was the Council and I found out about Shepard giving Cerberus potential control over the Geth, I'd be pretty pissed.

[JGDD]

SpiffySquee wrote...

A thought just occurred to me. Was Shepard ever decommissioned?  The alliance did not admit Shepard was dead and even used him as a poster boy for six months. I would think there would be no public discharge as that would be a dead give away he was... um... dead. So... if Shep was never decommissioned, would he not still be an alliance soldier?

Hrmm...

This kind of thing falls into meta-gaming territory and has never been fully disclosed to us, the player. I see the point you are making but we do have one person that knows for a fact Shepard was spaced with badly damaged suit. Joker watched it happen before his very eyes and that must carry some weight towards an Alliance decision of his status whether MIA or KIA.

It's probably one of those things that we'll never know for certain.

[Seboist]

Was Shepard even part of the Alliance military anymore after becoming a Spectre? S/he could outright reject requests from Admiral Hackett and didn't seem bound to him or any other Alliance brass.

[JGDD]

111987 wrote...

But Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council. Working with them temporarily to end a threat against human colonies is a very different matter than strengthening them by potentially giving them control of the entire Geth forces. Maybe it's just me, but if I was the Council and I found out about Shepard giving Cerberus potential control over the Geth, I'd be pretty pissed.

The Council has made it clear you are nothing more than a nuisance right now and should go play in left field. They do not know (currently) what you are really up against and do not care. As long as you don't make trouble directly for them it's just peachy and you can carry on with whatever it is you are doing. Should be mentioned you can forego the Spectre status as well and pretty much play by your own rules here.

[111987]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

111987 wrote...

But Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council. Working with them temporarily to end a threat against human colonies is a very different matter than strengthening them by potentially giving them control of the entire Geth forces. Maybe it's just me, but if I was the Council and I found out about Shepard giving Cerberus potential control over the Geth, I'd be pretty pissed.

The Council has made it clear you are nothing more than a nuisance right now and should go play in left field. They do not know (currently) what you are really up against and do not care. As long as you don't make trouble directly for them it's just peachy and you can carry on with whatever it is you are doing. Should be mentioned you can forego the Spectre status as well and pretty much play by your own rules here.

Once again, I reiterate that they would care if you handed over potential control of the Geth to a group they officially are opposed. This could be seen as an act of treason.

However, if you are not a Spectre, then this issue is moot. There is no treason involved.

[111987]

Seboist wrote...

Was Shepard even part of the Alliance military anymore after becoming a Spectre? S/he could outright reject requests from Admiral Hackett and didn't seem bound to him or any other Alliance brass.

Shepard was still Alliance. If you choose the paragon options in the conversation with Admiral Mikhailovich (or however you spell his name), Shepard say's he is still part of the Alliance.

[JGDD]

111987 wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

111987 wrote...

But Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council. Working with them temporarily to end a threat against human colonies is a very different matter than strengthening them by potentially giving them control of the entire Geth forces. Maybe it's just me, but if I was the Council and I found out about Shepard giving Cerberus potential control over the Geth, I'd be pretty pissed.

The Council has made it clear you are nothing more than a nuisance right now and should go play in left field. They do not know (currently) what you are really up against and do not care. As long as you don't make trouble directly for them it's just peachy and you can carry on with whatever it is you are doing. Should be mentioned you can forego the Spectre status as well and pretty much play by your own rules here.

Once again, I reiterate that they would care if you handed over potential control of the Geth to a group they officially are opposed. This could be seen as an act of treason.

However, if you are not a Spectre, then this issue is moot. There is no treason involved.

I'll just toss another wrench in your plans...pretty sure you are assuming the original Council with the current arguement. What happens if you let them burn? You aren't even granted a discussion with the new members. A human lead council. Changes things doesn't it?

Modifié par justgimmedudedammit, 02 septembre 2011 - 10:26 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

111987 wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

111987 wrote...

But Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council. Working with them temporarily to end a threat against human colonies is a very different matter than strengthening them by potentially giving them control of the entire Geth forces. Maybe it's just me, but if I was the Council and I found out about Shepard giving Cerberus potential control over the Geth, I'd be pretty pissed.

The Council has made it clear you are nothing more than a nuisance right now and should go play in left field. They do not know (currently) what you are really up against and do not care. As long as you don't make trouble directly for them it's just peachy and you can carry on with whatever it is you are doing. Should be mentioned you can forego the Spectre status as well and pretty much play by your own rules here.

Once again, I reiterate that they would care if you handed over potential control of the Geth to a group they officially are opposed. This could be seen as an act of treason.

However, if you are not a Spectre, then this issue is moot. There is no treason involved.

Yeah, if you aren't a spectre you aren't commiting treason, you're just an enemy of the state,which is just as fun.

[111987]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

111987 wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

111987 wrote...

But Cerberus is an avowed enemy of the Council. Working with them temporarily to end a threat against human colonies is a very different matter than strengthening them by potentially giving them control of the entire Geth forces. Maybe it's just me, but if I was the Council and I found out about Shepard giving Cerberus potential control over the Geth, I'd be pretty pissed.

The Council has made it clear you are nothing more than a nuisance right now and should go play in left field. They do not know (currently) what you are really up against and do not care. As long as you don't make trouble directly for them it's just peachy and you can carry on with whatever it is you are doing. Should be mentioned you can forego the Spectre status as well and pretty much play by your own rules here.

Once again, I reiterate that they would care if you handed over potential control of the Geth to a group they officially are opposed. This could be seen as an act of treason.

However, if you are not a Spectre, then this issue is moot. There is no treason involved.

I'll just toss another wrench in your plans...pretty sure you are assuming the original Council with the current arguement. What happens if you let them burn? You aren't even granted a discussion with the new members. A human lead council. Changes things doesn't it?

...if you read my whole post, you would know that I just said that.

"However, if you are not a Spectre, then this issue is moot. There is no treason involved."

[JGDD]

111987 wrote...

...if you read my whole post, you would know that I just said that.

"However, if you are not a Spectre, then this issue is moot. There is no treason involved."

I did read it...just glossed over it. Sorry about that, I should have worded it differently. Was just trying to throw in another perspective of how to deal with the Council.

[111987]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

111987 wrote...

...if you read my whole post, you would know that I just said that.

"However, if you are not a Spectre, then this issue is moot. There is no treason involved."

I did read it...just glossed over it. Sorry about that, I should have worded it differently. Was just trying to throw in another perspective of how to deal with the Council.

No problem. Sorry that I came off as rude; that was uncalled for.

But yes, you are right, if you do not work for the Council than you can pretty much do whatever you want without it being treason. It makes you an enemy of the state, but it isn't treason.

[Bad King]

Archer was driven by time constraints to conduct the Overlord experiment in an unethical way. Had he been given sufficient time by TIM, he wouldn't have put David into that ridiculous machine (it was never explained what the hell that clockwork orange style device was even for or how it furthered the experiment in any way).

At the end of Overlord, it's likely that TIM realised the potential in the project and will be willing to give Gavin Archer more time. So it's possible that Overlord is run in a more ethical way once it's over, considering also that Gavin Archer admits remorsefully that he treated his brother unethically.

Hold on, what am I saying? Cerberus is eval!!!11111!!!!!! thers no way theyd treet david good!!!11111!!!!!

Modifié par Bad King, 02 septembre 2011 - 11:28 .

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

Archer was driven by time constraints to conduct the Overlord experiment in an unethical way. Had he been given sufficient time by TIM, he wouldn't have put David into that ridiculous machine (it was never explained what the hell that clockwork orange style device was even for or how it furthered the experiment in any way).

At the end of Overlord, it's likely that TIM realised the potential in the project and will be willing to give Gavin Archer more time. So it's possible that Overlord is run in a more ethical way once it's over, considering also that Gavin Archer admits remorsefully that he treated his brother unethically.

Hold on, what am I saying? Cerberus is eval!!!11111!!!!!! thers no way theyd treet david good!!!11111!!!!!

TIM was telling one big fib about David getting the best medical care Cerberus could provide!!!!