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[GodWood]

Grim Intent wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Grim Intent wrote...
 Now I know I made the right decision based on my own sound logic.

Lolno

No you refuse to watch the video? Or no that wasn't Casey Hudson stating that The Reapers are working with Cerberus and that The Illusive Man is behind Cerberus' actions? Cause uh, it's not up for debate bud. It was said from a reliable source. If you won't take someone straight from Bioware's word for it you're delusional. Now I see that the title of the thread seems fitting...

It was lolno at your last sentence silly.

You tossed away the only potential source of information that could help you combat the undefeated exterminators of galaxies that you have no idea how you're going to defeat because of your own selfish morality.

And the whole 'Cerberus is working with the Reapers' is old news man.
This isn't some shocking revelation.

Modifié par GodWood, 25 septembre 2011 - 03:14 .

[Grim Intent]

BlueMagitek wrote...

In the same breath he says you need to discover why that is. And considering it happens regardless of the CB's status, that does not mean giving them the base is the incorrect choice. ~_^

Says you. Again, I know I made the right choice and I can almost guarantee you'll find that when you play ME3 you'll see why. The Illusive Man is a horrible person and I wouldn't be surprised if the CB decision heavily influences events in ME3.Speculation of course in case I had to clarify but only time will tell...

Really though what I'm trying to convey is that it's not up for debate whether or not the Illusive man is or is not the enemy and is or is not working with the Reapers because it's been confirmed that he is. I honestly wouldn't be all that surprised if he was indoctrinated the entire time and is just another pawn in the Reaper's mysterious plans. That of course is just wild speculation as well but we can now definitively put to rest the debate on TIM being the enemy. 

[GodWood]

Grim Intent wrote...
I honestly wouldn't be all that surprised if he was indoctrinated the entire time and is just another pawn in the Reaper's mysterious plans. That of course is just wild speculation

Wild speculation that contradicts the entire plot of the books, comics, novels and ME2.

[BlueMagitek]

No character played by Martin Sheen is horrible. Even when he's only on screen for a few moments! Evidence:



~

And I do say so; considering that Cerberus is meant to encompass 40% of the enemies in ME 3, Cerberus being allied or not based on the CB decision doesn't make any sense. If you're going to fight them regardless, you might as well let them have the base, find out what they can about it, and then take it from them.

He may be an antagonist, but he is the reason that there is a chance to defeat the Reapers, so I wouldn't call him a bad guy.

[Grim Intent]

Grim Intent wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

In the same breath he says you need to discover why that is. And considering it happens regardless of the CB's status, that does not mean giving them the base is the incorrect choice. ~_^

Says you. Again, I know I made the right choice and I can almost guarantee you'll find that when you play ME3 you'll see why. The Illusive Man is a horrible person and I wouldn't be surprised if the CB decision heavily influences events in ME3.Speculation of course in case I had to clarify but only time will tell...

Really though what I'm trying to convey is that it's not up for debate whether or not the Illusive man is or is not the enemy and is or is not working with the Reapers because it's been confirmed that he is. I honestly wouldn't be all that surprised if he was indoctrinated the entire time and is just another pawn in the Reaper's mysterious plans. That of course is just wild speculation as well but we can now definitively put to rest the debate on TIM being the enemy. 

*Sigh...
Sometimes I really wonder about the state of people's minds that post in these forums...
You're hopeless and clearly don't see what's blatantly obvious at this point. Listen kiddo, you can try all you like to justify why you kept the base but the fact remains the same. It is considered a Renegade Action. A pretty serious one considering the amount of points you gain in that alignment for doing so. Maybe you should look up the definition of Renegade before you pursue debate any further...

Here, let me simplify it for you. It's a traitor, an outlaw. Not exactly good things to be labeled as... If you honestly think you made the right decision in keeping the base then I guess your Moral Compass is broken. It's clear that I can't convince any of you otherwise though no matter how many facts I spout in your face to convert you so I give up. I'll just laugh pretty hard when you boot up ME3 and by the end of the game everyone dies and you realize you made some pretty poor decisions through your playthroughs to feel more like a badass and got everyone killed in the process. Meanwhile you'll most likely be left scratching your head as to why it turned out that way...
You sir, are the silly one. 

 

[ddv.rsa]

Grim Intent wrote...

But seriously though, for those of you that think you made the right decision in keeping the base here's proof that you sided with the enemy. In this developer walkthrough you hear straight from Bioware that Cerberus are working for the Reapers.

The problem is that Cerberus never sided with the Reapers until after the suicide mission. At that point there's no reason to think they'll betray you. Humanity is facing the biggest threat of its existence so it seems certain that Cerberus will be a dependable ally against the Reapers. After all, they exist to ensure the survival of humanity. Cerberus reviving Shepard, building the SR2, investigating the attacks, etc all back up this position.

Something big must have changed, and I don't think it's indoctrination. I think the Reapers offered TIM a deal promising the survival of humanity. In that case working with them is (for TIM) the best way to save humanity. But how could Shep have foreseen something like that at the suicide mission?

In any case, if Cerberus allied with the Reapers you can rest assured that saving the collector base does not help them at all. As soon as the deal was struck they could stop reverse engineering Collector tech, the Reapers would be giving it freely.

The only group who can benefit from any research done is the Alliance. Given the magnitude of the decision to work with the Reapers, and how thoroughly intertwined the Alliance and Cerberus are, I'm fairly certain that some operatives will bail and bring the research to the Alliance.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 25 septembre 2011 - 03:48 .

[BlueMagitek]

I'm not the one arguing morality based on what sort of points you get, then boiling the pot and mistaking the Paragon/Renegade decision as a Good/Evil one. That would be you. Heck, paragon actions involve letting terrorists and murderers walk.

Just because an option is listed in blue or red (or result in red or blue points) doesn't make one better or more moral than the other. Each decision has to be looked at individually before you can judge the morality of it. Picking blue because it is automatically the right thing to do is just as bad as choosing red because you think it's more badass or whatever your reasons are.

Aha, someone is certainly salty. And I hear that Renegade players are supposed to be angry. Because as it stands, I have given you a number of reasons to keep the base, which you ignore and simply repeat that because Cerberus is an enemy in ME 3, doing anything to help them is awful and horrendous and can only end poorly. Now, they're going to be an enemy either way, as I stated before, so giving them the base can only benefit you when you take their research and whatever they've collected from the Reapers from them.

[Grim Intent]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I'm not the one arguing morality based on what sort of points you get, then boiling the pot and mistaking the Paragon/Renegade decision as a Good/Evil one. That would be you. Heck, paragon actions involve letting terrorists and murderers walk.

Just because an option is listed in blue or red (or result in red or blue points) doesn't make one better or more moral than the other. Each decision has to be looked at individually before you can judge the morality of it. Picking blue because it is automatically the right thing to do is just as bad as choosing red because you think it's more badass or whatever your reasons are.

Aha, someone is certainly salty. And I hear that Renegade players are supposed to be angry. Because as it stands, I have given you a number of reasons to keep the base, which you ignore and simply repeat that because Cerberus is an enemy in ME 3, doing anything to help them is awful and horrendous and can only end poorly. Now, they're going to be an enemy either way, as I stated before, so giving them the base can only benefit you when you take their research and whatever they've collected from the Reapers from them.

Yeahhh, clearly you haven't read my previous posts... I thoroughly explain why I think it is a bad decision and use plenty of factual information to back my views. Maybe you should read them before you accuse me of ignoring valid points. I'm just saying... It's not so much that I'm ignoring your points. I just think you're wrong and that's okay. That's the beauty of diversity. Everyone has there own opinions and morals. I haven't seen you use many facts at all to base your wild conclusions so yes I tend to ignore them. I used quite a few to base mine around, but feel free to metagame all you want. When ME3 comes out we'll see what Bioware thinks of the matter.

Here's one particular post I made that backs up my views pretty well.

Finally, someone with some sort of intelligible opinion. I understand your views but I still have to disagree. Firstly, if it turns out that Paragon is in fact supposed to represent Idealistic and Renegade Cynical (which you have no real proof of), is that really any better than an immoral choice? I don't see how that being the case would change it's morality. It's wrong because you're taking a risk of endangering lives with the very obvious possibility of gaining absolutely nothing. Realistically, keeping the base wouldn't yield any real results in the short time before the imminent reaper invasion. You can't argue that it's a calculated risk because it's clearly not. Assuming there were blueprints on how to make a reaper, which likely there are not it would take some time to fully understand the technology and make any real use of it given realistic standards. It would take at least a year or more even with the top scientists and brightest minds and that is really stretching it.

To your second and third point on it not being clear if Cerberus is a morally "black" organization and such I also completely disagree. In Mass Effect every encounter detailed gross immoral behavior and even Jacob admits you won't find an organization with a more checkered past. Shepard even goes as far as to illicitly state that he fully expects Cerberus to betray him at some point. If you didn't expect that by the end of the game you clearly weren't paying attention. The Alliance even goes as far as to label them as Terrorists, as does the council (assuming you kept them alive), so I don't know how the eventual betrayal could've been anymore transparent and obvious honestly.

[111987]

[quote]Grim Intent wrote...
Realistically, keeping the base wouldn't yield any real results in the short time before the imminent reaper invasion. You can't argue that it's a calculated risk because it's clearly not. Assuming there were blueprints on how to make a reaper, which likely there are not it would take some time to fully understand the technology and make any real use of it given realistic standards. It would take at least a year or more even with the top scientists and brightest minds and that is really stretching it.[/quote]

This is your factual evidence? You just made all of this up! How can you know it won't yield any results? Shepard doesn't know how close or far away the Reapers are when making the decision to keep or destroy the base. Even if you play 'Arrival' before the Suicide Mission, Kenson says destroying the Alpha Relay could set them back months or even years. Please, don't make stuff up and then pass it across as factual.

Wanna hear some facts? In ME: Retribution, Cerberus has already recovered Reaper nano-technology and did an entire experiment on it and indoctrination. Sure the experiment went very wrong because the Turians attacked their base, but that PROVES they did yield actual results from the Collector Base. The upcoming comic, ME: Invasion also shows new Reaperized creatures Cerberus created using Collector technology, once again proving that they were able to yield real results from it.

And why do you say it is likely there aren't blueprints on Reapers at the Collector Base? THEY WERE LITERALLY BUILDING A REAPER! There is a large probability that there are blueprints on Reapers there, and if they can provide any clues towards their weaknesses (such as way to disable/bypass their shields), it could totally change the outcome of the war.
[/quote]

[ddv.rsa]

111987 wrote...


And why do you say it is likely there aren't blueprints on Reapers at the Collector Base? THEY WERE LITERALLY BUILDING A REAPER! There is a large probability that there are blueprints on Reapers there, and if they can provide any clues towards their weaknesses (such as way to disable/bypass their shields), it could totally change the outcome of the war.

Agreed. The collector base is the first thing we find that might actually be useful against the Reapers.

Someone explain to me the (immediate) military value in saving the Rachni Queen and curing the genophage. All it does is give paragons a warm, fuzzy feeling- possibly at the expense of millions of lives.

[BlueMagitek]

1) You state everything related to Reaper tech leads to indoctrination. I provide evidence to the contrary.
2) You state that even though some Reaper tech is helpful, it has dangers that go along with it. I agree and state that despite that, it should still be used and the CB base should be saved for its potential benefits.
3) You state that Cerberus is the enemy in ME 3; I agree but I do mention that, given what we know of Cerberus, we don't know their motives for doing so and that given all that we know of TIM, he isn't doing it to help the Reapers.
4) I go to sleep and you argue with other people.

When we came back, you assume things about what I have done knowing only that I saved the CB, spared the Rachni, saved the Genophage data & let the Heretics taste the Emperor's justice. That I will be left scratching my head and wondering why everyone around me is dying. My moral compass is broken and I'm doing renegade decisions because they're "badass". Despite my arguments as to why I've done something.

What do you want me to say to your old post that Sand Trout already dissected? Should I just repeat his statements?

Is a cynical choice better than an immoral choice? Really? I know that Balak is a terrorist and a slaver, should I assume that just letting him go is going to prevent him from continuing that line of work? Or take the man who lost a wife on Eden Prime; yes, it is bad that he isn't going to get his wife's body back in a timely fashion, but by studying the strange wounds on her body, we can save other lives and prevent such a thing from happening to another. Now, as for the base, you assume that we'll learn nothing from it in time. Will we learn everything immediately? No. But if nothing else, we'll get a large cache of Collector Technology in addition to Reaper blueprints and whatever other goodies that the Collectors had. Given that the Collector technology is greater than our current standard, that is a good thing.

Cerberus is a terrorist group, yes. But they've also done more than anyone else to combat the Reapers. Even though they're turning into enemies in ME 3, they've still done more than any other organization and they did it when it was crucial. In fact, we know that the Reapers would have won without Cerberus' aid if you've played Arrival.

[Grim Intent]

[quote]111987 wrote...

[quote]Grim Intent wrote...
Realistically, keeping the base wouldn't yield any real results in the short time before the imminent reaper invasion. You can't argue that it's a calculated risk because it's clearly not. Assuming there were blueprints on how to make a reaper, which likely there are not it would take some time to fully understand the technology and make any real use of it given realistic standards. It would take at least a year or more even with the top scientists and brightest minds and that is really stretching it.[/quote]

This is your factual evidence? You just made all of this up! How can you know it won't yield any results? Shepard doesn't know how close or far away the Reapers are when making the decision to keep or destroy the base. Even if you play 'Arrival' before the Suicide Mission, Kenson says destroying the Alpha Relay could set them back months or even years. Please, don't make stuff up and then pass it across as factual.

Wanna hear some facts? In ME: Retribution, Cerberus has already recovered Reaper nano-technology and did an entire experiment on it and indoctrination. Sure the experiment went very wrong because the Turians attacked their base, but that PROVES they did yield actual results from the Collector Base. The upcoming comic, ME: Invasion also shows new Reaperized creatures Cerberus created using Collector technology, once again proving that they were able to yield real results from it.

And why do you say it is likely there aren't blueprints on Reapers at the Collector Base? THEY WERE LITERALLY BUILDING A REAPER! There is a large probability that there are blueprints on Reapers there, and if they can provide any clues towards their weaknesses (such as way to disable/bypass their shields), it could totally change the outcome of the war.
[/quote]
[/quote]

I love how you people ignore the actual facts in that post and pick at the only speculation.. Well bud, I'm just being realistic. Just because they were building something doesn't mean they just kept the blueprints lying around. It's not realistic to think they can produce much of anything and even if they could I don't see TIM as the kind of guy that just goes around sharing his tech with you, the alliance or anyone else unless it's to further his own selfish goals while masquerading under the self-preservation of all humanity. Again,that IS speculation on my part but as a student at SPC studying to become a technical engineer I can tell that from what I know of the subject, realistically it's not feasible that they'd be able to reverse engineer advanced technology timely enough to help help against an imminent reaper invasion. They've already stated that the 3rd game will start out with you standing trial for the events of the arrival dlc so I would put the Reaper invasion at yes, imminent. Now helping cure the genophage that was already well on it's way when you encountered Maelon in Mordin's Loyalty mission and securing an alliance with the new Krogan horde to help fight the reapers would be a reasonable choice in my opinion. It could backfire yes, but I can at least see the great potential aid they would provide against the reapers as shock troops. I'm sorry but I don't see the value in keeping the base and honestly, I would destroy it solely on principle personally given the chance if only for the mass genocide and atrocities that were committed there. I see no good coming out of keeping it and surrendering it to a selfish cynic and morally ambiguous individual with a VERY shady past. Ignore the facts and pick at speculation all you like, because it certainly won't convince me to see your terrible reasoning.

[111987]

[quote]Grim Intent wrote...

I love how you people ignore the actual facts in that post and pick at the only speculation..
[/quote]

And I love how people like you try to pass off your speculations as facts, because nothing you said was factual

[quote]Grim Intent wrote...
Well bud, I'm just being realistic. Just because they were building something doesn't mean they just kept the blueprints lying around. It's not realistic to think they can produce much of anything and even if they could I don't see TIM as the kind of guy that just goes around sharing his tech with you, the alliance or anyone else unless it's to further his own selfish goals while masquerading under the self-preservation of all humanity. Again,that IS speculation on my part but as a student at SPC studying to become a technical engineer I can tell that from what I know of the subject, realistically it's not feasible that they'd be able to reverse engineer advanced technology timely enough to help help against an imminent reaper invasion.
[/quote]

You realize how ridiculous you sound? "Just because they were building something doesn't mean they just kept the blueprints lying around." Seriously? So they're just winging it or something? Going with the flow? Get real.

The Thanix Cannon was developed in 6 months using reverse-engineered Reaper technology. ME3 takes place at least that long after ME2, if not longer (Arrival takes places 6 months after ME2, and ME3 takes place 2 months after Arrival).

When has Mass Effect been about realism?


[quote]Grim Intent wrote...
They've already stated that the 3rd game will start out with you standing trial for the events of the arrival dlc so I would put the Reaper invasion at yes, imminent.
[/quote]

ME3 takes place 2 months after Arrival. And once again, Shepard does not KNOW when the Reapers are going to arrive when making the choice. That is meta-gaming, and has no place here.
[/quote]




[quote]Grim Intent wrote...
Ignore the facts and pick at speculation all you like, because it certainly won't convince me to see your terrible reasoning.
[/quote]

Then how about you actually post some facts?  It might be easier to take you seriously if you do

[Grim Intent]

I'm sorry but if you didn't get the hint that the reaper invasion was imminent after playing the arrival dlc then you're daft. it was implied and that's what i got out of it, and low and behold me3 is announced to be taking place shortly after those events, as is the reaper invasion. BIG SURPRISE! That's not metagaming you moron that's called reading between the lines.
How about those facts about The Illusive Man, his motives, Cerberus' past and whatnot. Not factual enough for you? Again, the part about whether or not the tech can be utilized or not given the time is speculation based on what I know of engineering and such, not fact. However, the bit about Cerberus and the Illusive Man not likely sharing the tech is PRETTY plausible given their past actions.

You give no sound speculation of your own regarding the subject. YOU metagame by quoting things from comics and novels that came out AFTER THE GAME. I base my facts solely on info obtained in the actual games, as I always have because like Halo, other sources of information regardless of the author tend to conflict with canon already laid in the game.

[BlueMagitek]

...no you don't. We don't have any information about Cerberus being the enemy in ME 3 (the crux of your arguments) in ME 2.

[111987]

Grim Intent wrote...

I'm sorry but if you didn't get the hint that the reaper invasion was imminent after playing the arrival dlc then you're daft. it was implied and that's what i got out of it, and low and behold me3 is announced to be taking place shortly after those events, as is the reaper invasion. BIG SURPRISE! That's not metagaming you moron that's called reading between the lines.
How about those facts about The Illusive Man, his motives, Cerberus' past and whatnot. Not factual enough for you? Again, the part about whether or not the tech can be utilized or not given the time is speculation based on what I know of engineering and such, not fact. However, the bit about Cerberus and the Illusive Man not likely sharing the tech is PRETTY plausible given their past actions.

You give no sound speculation of your own regarding the subject. YOU metagame by quoting things from comics and novels that came out AFTER THE GAME. I base my facts solely on info obtained in the actual games, as I always have because like Halo, other sources of information regardless of the author tend to conflict with canon already laid in the game.

Kenson clearly says destroying the Alpha Relay could delay the Reapers months or years. That's all we know in-game regarding the timing. So once again, you are wrong. For all Shepard knows, the 'imminent' Reaper invasion could be in a few years.

I happen to agree that Cerberus is a very shady organization, but once again, when the decision is being made, this is the only organization whom has actually tried to do something about the Reapers. If you ever read the Mission Sumarries, you would know that Cerberus actually wants the galaxy to be strong; for example, they are against a Quarian/Geth War. They have shown total commitment to stopping the Reapers up until that point.

[ddv.rsa]

Grim Intent wrote...
 Now helping cure the genophage that was already well on it's way when you encountered Maelon in Mordin's Loyalty mission and securing an alliance with the new Krogan horde to help fight the reapers would be a reasonable choice in my opinion. It could backfire yes, but I can at least see the great potential aid they would provide against the reapers as shock troops.

I'm still not getting this. What use would Krogan infantry be against Reaper warships?

Besides that, even if the genophage was 100% cured the same day of Mordin's loyalty mission, that doesn't leave enough time to raise, train and equip a new generation of Krogan warriors. All curing the genophage would achieve is more committment from the current (relatively few) krogan warriors, who could fight knowing their species has a future. But again, how are they so useful as to justify a galactic war later on?

[SandTrout]

Krogan are potentially valuable against the Husks and other indoctrinated minions of the Reapers. The Genophage cure is not a means to give the Krogan adequate numbers, it is a means to rally the various clans under your banner and keep them obedient.

[111987]

SandTrout wrote...

Krogan are potentially valuable against the Husks and other indoctrinated minions of the Reapers. The Genophage cure is not a means to give the Krogan adequate numbers, it is a means to rally the various clans under your banner and keep them obedient.

True. But would you trust giving the Genophage cure to a traditionalist like Wreav? I think Wrex could be trusted with it, but Wreav or any successor of his would more than likely renew the Krogan Rebellions, and since the galaxy will be in such a devastated state after the Reaper War...the Krogan just might conquer/enslave/exterminate everyone else.

[ddv.rsa]

SandTrout wrote...

Krogan are potentially valuable against the Husks and other indoctrinated minions of the Reapers. The Genophage cure is not a means to give the Krogan adequate numbers, it is a means to rally the various clans under your banner and keep them obedient.

Fighting husks? The Krogan are tough, but I don't see what makes their warriors particularly more suitable than the Alliance Marines, Turian Legions, Asari Huntresses, etc. Especially considering we're talking about relatively small numbers and not  a horde.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is this: one can't seriously claim that curing the genophage and sparing the Rachni queen are taking risks for the sake of the war effort. It's taking a risk for the sake of morality. Call it for what it is.

[BlueMagitek]

I disagree with you on the subject of the genophage and the Rachni queen.

I don't believe anyone is advocating that the genophage be completely reversed, but tweaked to allow for a more viable population, especially if a majority of the Krogan population is stuck on their homeworld (of death).

As for the Rachni Queen, we know this is literally the first contact between the Rachni and any species. We don't know enough about them to make an informed decision.

[ddv.rsa]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I disagree with you on the subject of the genophage and the Rachni queen.

I don't believe anyone is advocating that the genophage be completely reversed, but tweaked to allow for a more viable population, especially if a majority of the Krogan population is stuck on their homeworld (of death).

What do you disagree with? I'm saying that the curing the genophage results in relatively minimal military gains, you're talking about creating a more viable population- a moral consideration.

[Grim Intent]

Yeah, I would agree that if I hadn't saved Wrex on Virmire I wouldn't have made the same choice in Mordin's loyalty mission. Wreav seemed a little too stuck in his ways and would probably facilitate another rebellion if given a cure. An alliance with Wrex and the Krogan however could greatly aid any marine efforts on the ground fighting the husks, Cerberus and the like. Sure their numbers aren't near what they were but they are brutal warriors and would be powerful allies, even in smaller numbers.

[BlueMagitek]

ddv.rsa wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I disagree with you on the subject of the genophage and the Rachni queen.

I don't believe anyone is advocating that the genophage be completely reversed, but tweaked to allow for a more viable population, especially if a majority of the Krogan population is stuck on their homeworld (of death).

What do you disagree with? I'm saying that the curing the genophage results in relatively minimal military gains, you're talking about creating a more viable population- a moral consideration.

Ah, sorry, fair enough, I didn't read your post carefully enough.

[Kaiser Shepard]

BlueMagitek wrote...

As for the Rachni Queen, we know this is literally the first contact between the Rachni and any species. We don't know enough about them to make an informed decision.

You know their very nature makes them incompatible with the rest of galactic society, so conflict is inevitable...