Feh on semantic arguments. Total waste of time and energy. Just move on.
As to the question of morality, the Rachni Queen is not comparable to the Collector's Base. Saving the Rachni Queen is quite possibly a huge tactical military benefit for humanity (though paragon). Blowing up the Collector's Base is purposefully destroying a potential military asset for the "greater good" (though also paragon).
Apples and Oranges. Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard could have equally viable reasons for sparing the Rachni. Not so for the Collector's Base.
Both Rachni queen or Collector base situation are same to me, both can be good or bad thing. Because there is no way to know which direction it goes in future.
You seem to look like "knowledge" as military benefit, is worth of saving in all cases?
Lets make example, you find place where some mad doctor has invented a lot of new ways to torture people. Now do you still think that it's more important the learn the knowledge or destroy it to prevent it to be used?
Point of course was that while knowledge in generaly is good thing, not every knowledge is good. Because some knowledge can be used to do bad things. So, sometimes it's moral decission, is this knowledge good to keep or will it be used bad ways. Also every technolgy knowledge affects also what direction we go, so it's also question is this direction where we want to go.
That's a RL example. **** (really, rhymes with Yahtzee is edited, it's a legitimate historical reference point?) doctors did horrible experiments on humans, and a lot of that information later was utilized in medical treatments. I'm not making a value judgement on that, I'm saying that both Paragon and Renegade POV have validity during that stage in the plot. I was merely commenting on the different between the Base and the Rachni since in the latter, the creature was still alive you would literally be the person committing or not committing the genocide at that point.
By the way, if you can dismiss the rachni to be dangerous so easily and so quickly, then by that logic, I can do the same with Cerberus. It works both ways.
That's a RL example. **** (really, rhymes with Yahtzee is edited, it's a legitimate historical reference point?) doctors did horrible experiments on humans, and a lot of that information later was utilized in medical treatments.
This is a popular notion, but it's not true. The vast majority of it was of no use whatsoever, for various reasons. A big one being that a lot of it just wasn't very, well, scientific. In addition to being exceedingly cruel, it was also quite often sloppy and incompetent and poorly documented. So far, only some data from experiments on freezing and hypothermia and the effects of phosgene gas have really contributed anything of significance to modern medicine.
That's a RL example. **** (really, rhymes with Yahtzee is edited, it's a legitimate historical reference point?) doctors did horrible experiments on humans, and a lot of that information later was utilized in medical treatments.
This is a popular notion, but it's not true. The vast majority of it was of no use whatsoever, for various reasons. A big one being that a lot of it just wasn't very, well, scientific. In addition to being exceedingly cruel, it was also quite often sloppy and incompetent and poorly documented. So far, only some data from experiments on freezing and hypothermia and the effects of phosgene gas have really contributed anything of significance to modern medicine.
Not going to get into it, and not going to argue about it. I referenced it once, and moving on.
As to the OP and morality, believing that any example of the BIG renegade/paragon choices is black and white is a thinking error.
As to the OP and morality, believing that any example of the BIG renegade/paragon choices is black and white is a thinking error.
If you mean not every choises is totally black or white, nothing ever is. In every choises there is allways good and bad in it. How ever, how people sees them can vary a lot. Some people see like black or white choises are "all" gray choises, because they have lost ability see thing as clear lines or other perspective, others have losed they ability see that not everyting is black and white. Depending who you self are, gray or black/white person. Many times people invent excuses to support they choises, like they are "good" no matter what they choose. So, they make them acceptable, because they want those choises. It's little like people bending they moral to fit they own needs.
I disagree to a point. I would imagine a paragon shep, no matter his or her motives, would question the wisdom of sparing the Rachni. I doubt it would be as simple as "well, I did it, so it must have been the right thing to do."
Maybe it would be, but I doubt it. I don't suggest that constant second guessing would be going on, but I also don't think those big decisions would be completely rationalized once they are made.
I envision more like "well, I am doing this because I think it's the right call, god I hope I'm right."
I envision more like "well, I am doing this because I think it's the right call, god I hope I'm right."
I don't do that allways.
I sometimes do choises so that even if the choises ends to be bad in future I would still make it, because it was still the right choise to make. Because not every right choise have to be beneficial.
I gave the Rachni a second chance by sparing them. I gave the Council a second chance by saving them. I even gave the heretic Geth a second chance by rejoining them with the rest of the Geth.
I gave TIM and Cerberus a second chance by working with them, but throughout the game TIM seemed to try everything possible to kill Shepard. Effectively tipping the Collector's off about Horizon, leading him into a trap with the Collector ship. I gave TIM more than enough chances, and he repeatedly blew it. The Collector Base, while a potentially invaluable asset, was not something I could trust TIM with. The Council or the Alliance perhaps, but not TIM after his repeated attempts to lure Shepard into danger. Maybe TIM had his reasons, but I don't trust him with something as potentially powerful as the Base. In the right hands it could be a decisive weapon, but in the wrong hands it could be far too dangerous and as far as I'm concerned (at least with my main Shep) TIM's hands are the wrong hands.
Tipping the Collectors oof about Horizon was way to lure them there. How else do you plan to catch the Collectors if you don't know where they are? You got to draw them out. That was a smart move by TIM.
TIM isnt' trying to kill Sheppard at all. That would be stupid - he spetn 4 billion dollas and a lot of effort to bring him back. No, he's not shy of sending you into danger or putting you into dangerous situations, if he thinks the risk is worth it. For him, Sheppard is expendable. If it can save humantiy, everyone is. Everything TIM does is a calcualted risk. At no time did he try to get Shep killed.
For example, if you hate TIM, you will disbelief everythnig he sez and not treat anything as factual. While at the same time, you will treat everything the Rachnii queen sez as a fact, becasue you feel simpathy for her plight.
Actually, if I don't trust TIM, that means I won't immediately believe everything he says and just take his word for it. Cynicism and doubts can be a good thing sometimes.
And the rachni queen is an entirely different situation, because she's the last of her species. TIM is not. Just because the krogans commited genocide on the rachni before doesn't make it right to do it again.
It's not a different siutaiton. It makes no difference that she' is the last of her kind. None whatsoever.
That does not change even in the slightest the danger factor.
You keep talking about the right and wrong of killing her, insted of hte right and wrong of unleashing the rachni on the galaxy. Is it moraly right to risk the safety of the galaxy - millions of lives - just to bring back an already extinct species?
As I said before. Cerberus is much like Blackwater. If you think Blackwater can take over the US, then you're delluding yourself. Cerberus cannot take over any nation, race or planet.
No, but they can still do serious damage. As they have been very close to do many times before.
If they can't even handle something like a dead Reaper or the geth without getting themselves killed and nearly jeopardize the entire mission/galaxy (that Reaper would've been a great source of technology and information if Cerberus wasn't formed of a band of incompetent and lobotomized clowns), then why the hell should I think they can handle something like the Collector base?
Galaxy can survive anything Cerberus throws at it with ease...the reapers? not so much.
And the derelict reaper? The Geth? You talk about them like it's something simple, that anyone could pull off.
Firrst of all, there's no known countermesure to indoctrination. Not to mention no one even knew the DR was indoctrinating. So how would anyone else do better? Please, enlighten me....
Secondly, you can find poeple who push thing too far everywhere. There was a mission in ME1 in which the alliance lsot control of a VI for example. Experiment backfires happen to everyone. Except the Asari arne't callign you to clean up their mess, so you don't witness it.
That's a RL example. **** (really, rhymes with Yahtzee is edited, it's a legitimate historical reference point?) doctors did horrible experiments on humans, and a lot of that information later was utilized in medical treatments. I'm not making a value judgement on that, I'm saying that both Paragon and Renegade POV have validity during that stage in the plot. I was merely commenting on the different between the Base and the Rachni since in the latter, the creature was still alive you would literally be the person committing or not committing the genocide at that point.
You got a poitn there...but tehre's also another point to make.
Would ouo sacrifice your ease of mind for the safety of the galaxy? How many spare the rachnii queen just to keep their hands clean (which is a rather selfish thing, considering the impilcations)
It's not a different siutaiton. It makes no difference that she' is the last of her kind. None whatsoever.
That does not change even in the slightest the danger factor.
You keep talking about the right and wrong of killing her, insted of hte right and wrong of unleashing the rachni on the galaxy. Is it moraly right to risk the safety of the galaxy - millions of lives - just to bring back an already extinct species?
It just shows that I'd rather trust the last queen of a species' words more than TIM's.
Galaxy can survive anything Cerberus throws at it with ease...the reapers? not so much.
And the derelict reaper? The Geth? You talk about them like it's something simple, that anyone could pull off.
Firrst of all, there's no known countermesure to indoctrination. Not to mention no one even knew the DR was indoctrinating. So how would anyone else do better? Please, enlighten me....
Secondly, you can find poeple who push thing too far everywhere. There was a mission in ME1 in which the alliance lsot control of a VI for example. Experiment backfires happen to everyone. Except the Asari arne't callign you to clean up their mess, so you don't witness it.
1. Overlord. You point is invalid.
2. Yes, anyone with a brain can salvage that derelict Reaper. Just use mechs that are immune to indoctrination. If there's a sign of danger, no normal scientist would throw themselves into the fire. No scientists that actually know how to use their brains, anyway.
3. Cerberus is asking their experiments to backfire, because they have little to no safeguards installed. None that are quick and effective, anyway.
Rogue VIs happens all the time. It's not something you can predict. Cerberus is messing with something beyond VIs and are just asking to be slaughtered.
You are assuming that every military decision is made without any semblance of a gamble or calculated risk. Yeah, saving the Rachni could have dire consequences and plunge the galaxy into another costly war that it can ill afford.
It could also give you an incredible ally, possibly more powerful than any other force in the galaxy (including humanity).
The choice was made quickly, and under duress. You had a choice, and one way or another, you walked out of there with +28 paragon or renegade points. All I'm saying is that the concept of a superior military advantage could have entered into a paragon shep's mind as easily as renegade.
You can't make decisions with foresight of the consequences. You make the best choice you can, for the reasons you think are best. If it goes to hell... deal with it then (and who knows, maybe in ME3 saving the Rachni DOES have dire consequences).
As I said before...actively guaging the risks and benefist is cruicail.
As you say..with the rachnii queen - you get a powerfull ally...or a powerfull enemy. Even worse if they get indoctrinated again...Point is, the nagatives are just as big as the possitives (if not worse, as hte galaxy can ill-afford a war). A 100 rachni ships on your side, or 100 rachni ships against you. It evens out.
With the CB...the best positive is that all your allies get ehnaced with the tech from the base.. A massive boost. The negative? Only Cerberus gets enhanced with it and turns agaisnt you.
In this case the bonus (hunderds, if not thousands of enhnaced ships on your side) far outweigh the negative (enhnaced cerberus troopers agasint you..Cerberus doesn't have a navy)
Futhermore, regarding trust. TIM's goals are compatible with defense agasint the reapers. He wants a strong humanity, so there's no reason to believe he wouldn't share research data with the Alliance. To not do so would undermine his own goals, and Cerberus goals. Also, he Revived Shep, gaving a ship and crew, helping him out agasint the Collectors and reapers. He's been anything if not consistent. Thus he has given me no reason to mistrust him.
With the Rchnii Queen there is nothing to gauge with, as there is no previous interaction.
Galaxy can survive anything Cerberus throws at it with ease...the reapers? not so much.
And the derelict reaper? The Geth? You talk about them like it's something simple, that anyone could pull off.
Firrst of all, there's no known countermesure to indoctrination. Not to mention no one even knew the DR was indoctrinating. So how would anyone else do better? Please, enlighten me....
Secondly, you can find poeple who push thing too far everywhere. There was a mission in ME1 in which the alliance lsot control of a VI for example. Experiment backfires happen to everyone. Except the Asari arne't callign you to clean up their mess, so you don't witness it.
1. Overlord. You point is invalid.
The Galaxy surived the Geth. What actually happened in Overlord? No great catastrophy.
2. Yes, anyone with a brain can salvage that derelict Reaper. Just use mechs that are immune to indoctrination. If there's a sign of danger, no normal scientist would throw themselves into the fire. No scientists that actually know how to use their brains, anyway.
That makes no sense. How do you stufy the effects of indoctrination on humans wihout exposing humans to it? How do you nkow which device is safe to study and whihc not? And lastly, there's planety ofscientist who would throw themselves into the fire, if they belives their sacrifice was worth somethin.
3. Cerberus is asking their experiments to backfire, because they have little to no safeguards installed. None that are quick and effective, anyway.
Where do you get that they have no safeguards installed? As I said before, experimetns backfire. Lab accidents happen, even with many safeguards.
Rogue VIs happens all the time. It's not something you can predict. Cerberus is messing with something beyond VIs and are just asking to be slaughtered.
Ah..so everyone esle who f*** up is excused? and how do you know others arne't messing with dangerous stuff? Turians have been also messing with reapers tech!
Weaksauce argument!
Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 31 juillet 2011 - 02:26 .
It's not a different siutaiton. It makes no difference that she' is the last of her kind. None whatsoever.
That does not change even in the slightest the danger factor.
You keep talking about the right and wrong of killing her, insted of hte right and wrong of unleashing the rachni on the galaxy. Is it moraly right to risk the safety of the galaxy - millions of lives - just to bring back an already extinct species?
It just shows that I'd rather trust the last queen of a species' words more than TIM's.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote... Teh kill ration is jsut an example. It doesn't change the issue.[/quote] No, your kill ratio DOESN'T exist. You couldn't kill Reapers with conventional weapons before, you can't now. For starters, there is no new conventional weapon on the HR.
[quote]If I expends LESS resources and lives to take out a single repaer, then that IS making a difference.[/quote]
Guess what.
It. Doesn't.
At no point did conventional weaponry take a Reaper down, and there is no reason for that to change. You never needed MORE resources to destroy a Reaper.
It doesn't make a single difference.
[quote]Absolutely yes. Odds change with the weapon tech.
If it takes 20 shots to take down a reaper shield instead of 50, then the odds have gone way up. [/quote] As much as you like to evade the facts, it doesn't take 50 shots to take down a Reaper. All we know is that it takes more than two big fleets.
For all we know, Reapers have a regeneration program for their shields which means that theoretically, conventional weaponry could never take them down.
Conventional weaponry never took a Reaper out. Improved conventional weaponry won't do anything either.
And here's (another) major hole in your theory. You claim that Cerberus works alone and that they can not create a navy, and yet you expect advanced conventional weaponry (that doesn't exist in the base) to be equipped over all major fleets so that they have a chance to take a single Reaper down.
How does that work exactly, I wonder.
[quote]I'm not kidding. Since your understanding of technolgoiy is laughable.
Technology ins't a infelxible rod. Technology (and knowledge) is like lego bricks - the more you have it, the more different things you can cobble together, even those that aren't immediately obvious. As history has shown us, many inventions and devices made for one purpose, made advancement possible in may other areas. Tech designed for war found compeltely different use in every-day applications, and vice-versa.
You don't actualylhave to find a reper shield emmiter to find tech that can be used to improve your own shield emmiters. (and just because the HR didnt' have a kinetic barrier active, doesn't mean it didn't have some components for it installed, or that they weren't stored somewhere in the base)[/quote] Uh, that's not how it works.
There is very specific technolodgy attached on the Reaper. None of which, at any point can defeat (combined with conventional tech or not) a Reaper.
Bettter canons doesn't mean anything when canons can't do anything to a Reaper. Combined tech only offers improvements, you need brand new tech to come out of the base, something that doesn't exist.
Oh, and guess what. I'll be generous and say that the size of the lavra was 100m. The size of an actual Reaper is 2 kilometers. The purpose of the lavra component is to store genetic material.
Not only is there nothing to suggest that the Human Reaper had a kinetic barrier generator, but there is, in fact, evidence to suggest that there wasn't such thing. Generators create ME fields, which should be able to protect the HR at any time, that didn't happen, did it?
Oh, and you let a radioactive pulse destroy the Collectors, no? You might want to research it's effects.
[quote]I told you - pretty much ehanced everything. Shield, weapons, power transfer efficiency, alloys, construction ,etc, etc... The possiblities are endless.[/quote] No, the possibilies are quite finite.
Conventional weapons, power transfer efficiency and alloys already exist. And they have no effect on a shielded Reaper, as we can see.
Whether they are improved or not, doesn't change the fact that fundamentally they can't touch a single Reaper, let alone several.
That position is fundamentally contradicted by my very initial point. No matter how useful the improvements are: a) The ships will always have less damage potential, protection, reaction time than the Reapers, The Reaper fleet will at all times outnumber you.
[quote]It does. Because it's a game and some liberties are therefore taken. Remeber how rare mages are uspposed to be in the DA setting? But even if we assume the game is 100% accurate in representing that, it's still just a few hunderd soldiers tops.[/quote] A few specialized hundreds of soldiers are as much an army as you need them to be, especially for guerilla warfare, terrorism or assisations.
And you have no point. If the story tells you that Cerberus sent brigades of commandos to several planets, then they did. They obviously have the supplies and the troops for these actions.
[quote]The galaxy has a sea of soldiers. Humans themselves have an army compromising 3% of ppopulation (IIRC) and that population is 12 billion. Add to that number the turans, asari, krogan, salarians and all the others....then do the math.[/quote] First of, someone working for the military is not necessarily a soldier, and that still doesn't make them billions. You should probably do the math. The Alliance currently has only 360.000 operatives. Not even a million.
[quote]And yes..Navy. Cerbers has no warships. Cruisers and Dreadnoughts are something only races have the infrastructure and reasources to build (and are allowed to) What's Cerberus gonan do with a bunch of transport ships against hunderds of warships? Even with enhanced weaposn and shield and armor, they'd be blown away in seconds.
Again, look up LOGISTICS..[/quote] That contradicts your logic, you said yourself, that if if Cerberus acquires the CB tech, they can improve the kill ratio. Now, how does that work?
And no, you don't need a single ship to win a war. Guerilla warfare, political assasinations and infiltration are enough, with the presence of course of kill squads when things get tough.
[quote]1. Tim doesn't want to take over the galaxy.[/quote] He wants human domination, though Shepard is sure that he wants Cerberus domination. So there.
[quote]2. The Alliance is pretty much a democracy. TIM can't go to war agaisnt the galaxy, even if he could somehow completely infliltrate the vast political sctruture, which in itself is silly. That apparatus is too large and it's not like that apparatus doesn't defned itself from infiiltration. And he'd never get the popular support to boot. Cerberus does have some ties with the Alliance military-industrial complex tough..[/quote] You have no idea how this works, do you? How about you read up some SB entries.
Cerberus has already done smear campaigns on candidates to ensure that their own sponsored candidate gets to power, political assasinations, and bribes. That's all they need.
[quote]But assuming Cerberus really coudl get popular support...then it's not really Cerberus anymore, it IS humantiy at that point.[/quote] Except that even if the elections are not set up, Cerberus can plant lies, propaganda and do smear campaigns, so that's definitely not what democracy is about.
[quote]3. And no, Cerberus can't whip up a fleet and army just like that, base or no base. Ships aren't built overnight and require a huge investment in resources. Army requires an upkeep. Again logistics, logistics, logistics, logistics. There is absolutely, positively NO way Cerberus can whip up a navy or army that would present any credible threat to any nation. [/quote] Yes, repeat the word logistics, when there is an entire game and a comic that already contradict you.
Cerberus does have a fleet already, the money to create a bigger one, and a lot of commandos. And they don't even need them.
That's what everyone keeps telling you. But you don't want to listen. All they need to do is kill some unwanted people, bribe here and there, do smear campaigns, and they can have a puppet government in no time.
[quote]4. How else to secure human domination? By making sure humanity is #1 economicly, politicly and military. domination does not reaure war, or taking over or ensalving anyone. It happens if you have enough power automaticly. Every nation wants to dominate. It is natural.[/quote] Uh-huh, nice try trying to evade my point.
How does one ensure human domination over the Reapers, peacefully? And beyond them?
[quote]You can't take over a nation wihout an army.[/quote] Uh, yes you can.
A single STG agent made a nation surrender.
And it doesn't even need to be their army.
[quote]I don't recall dragons teeth in the CB. But let's for a second assume your'e right. It still changes nothing. Producing husks (whih are rather pathetic foot soldiers) requires resources and time. And it still only one base. Other races[/quote] And you are obviously wrong.
The CB is the only CB of course, and it has husks, and produces scions. Oh, and resources? They already have what seems to be a fleet of rogue husks in ME3.
Oh, and pathetic foot soldiers? Tell that to Aria's men in Invasion, or her personally in Incursion, or the human ground forces in ME3.
[quote]Those they screened before. Their recruitment pool is a lot smaller and the speed of recruitment much smaller, since tehy have to watch out for their secrecy. Normal army has a recruitign poster and commercials - and anyone can join. Cerberus has to hide it's recruitment and pick candidates carefully (one snitch and your entire cell can be gone) [/quote] Source? Actually, no, don't even try. The Lazarus Cell, Joker, Chakwas, Ken, Gabby and the rest say that you are wrong. They weren't screened before, they were screened at that time, exactly. Hell, they only recruited Ken because he attracted their attention.
And secrecy? BS. They have no problem with deploying 15 feet tall mechs, and they shouldn't. Why should they maintain secrecy a little before a Reaper invasion?
[quote]Money is not logistics...[/quote] Logistics has everything to do with money and where you invest it.
[quote]And while Cerberus has a lot of it, Lazarus and Normady 2 nearly drained them. It was a huuge investement on their part.[/quote] And apparently no one cared about them. Either way, source.
[quote]I wantechedhhte video. You covered nothing and are full of BS.[/quote] No, you didn't "wattechedhthe" video. TIM openly admits wanting to secure human domination against the Reapers and beyond. How peaceful domination over the Reapers is possible is beyond me.
Also, Cerberus' manifesto has been described as "anti-alien", TIM believes that the aliens stop humanity from it's rightful position (How I love national socialism) when in fact, humanity was one of the most powerful species with a seat on the Council. Read Ascension.
[quote]You call a transport ship a navy? [/quote] A single transport ship? Are you serious? They have a full transport fleet and nowhere is it mentioned if those ships actually have weapons or if they are the only Cerberus fleet. In any case, TIM can obviously produce fleets.
[quote]What happens when the alliance is on to Cerberus? When the Council races set up miitary patrols and checkpoints? How will you deliver your troops then?[/quote] And how will they do that? The remains of their forces are on the run very early into the Reaper invasion. And as I said, they could very well control the Alliance if they wish.
[quote]Again, we're takign about Cerberius invading planets. It stands no chance to even get close, lt alone land and deply troops. Al ltheri ships would be blown out of hte sky.[/quote] Derpity derp. No we are not, and no they wouldn't.
We are talking about Cerberus establishing violent Cerberus domination over the other races which could be done even without the commandos, and no, no ships would be shot down from the sky. The Reapers are attacking key defensive positions.
[quote]Do you think it can be moved easily..or at all? The base is several kilometers in length. It's choke full of equipment.[/quote]
...yes and? They could very easily take the HR apart and move him elsewhere within months with the current technolodgy that we have, never mind the mass effect fields and lowering the mass of objects to transfer them easily.
[quote]Ever hear of a pardon?[/quote] Ever heard of it being given to terrorists most of their operations not having anything to do with the Reaper threat? Oh, and I thought that you were talking about secrecy?
[quote]It very well could. Again, you misundertant what domination is. The US is a a dominant force in the world today. I dont' see slave collars on me..do you?[/quote] Uh, no it isn't. Their economy has the greatest debt of human history, whether they have the most powerful military in the world is extremely debatable, and the EU nations as a whole have greater diplomatic power because they can cast multiple votes.
[quote]Very bad Bio wariting b.t.w.[/quote]And if that's your logic, I'll just claim that those are precisely your average Cerberus operatives. PROVE ME WRONG.[/quote] Easy. The Lazarus Cell consists of only 24 members, multiple of which having either been recruited recently or are familiar to Shepard, and their leaders support Shepard for destroying the base. Definitely your average cell, huh.
Instead, you have operatives who willingly went ahead and: a) Abducted and experimented on children, Attacked the Alliance and the Migrant Fleet, c) Were OK with forcing an autistic person into becoming a supercomputer that is restrained in a horrendous manner, d) Are admitted racists (Kai Leng and his squad), do I need to go on?
[quote]Reapers and beyond....what is the beyond? How do you know there aren't other dangers in the galaxy, even worse than the reapers?[/quote]Better yet, how does TIM know that they are? When the Reapers apparently don't. Please, don't be hillarious.
[quote]And again, domination doesn't mean that everyone else is your salve or dead.[/quote] Uh-huh, tell us about the peaceful Reaper domination which I just mentioned.
[quote]Sauce that the Arcturus fleet even HAS dreadnoughts. Humans have very few DN's as far as I recall....And it still changes nothing.[/quote]Other than the part that it was confirmed by devs that the 5th Fleet had dreadnaughts that ended up being cut due to technical issues? Not that you see the entire fleet anyway, no more than ten cruisers are shown in a single scene.
[quote]You didnt..[/quote]Hint: Every projectile that is not a disruptor torpedo is mass accelerated.
Even the ones from pistols. No allied force has a superweapon that can fire like the Klendangon canon did.
It's basically the same with saying, "oh hey, a pistol has mass accelerated projectiles. And guess what, the superweapon had mass accelerated projectiles too!"
And last time I checked, the superweapon only fired once, and it didn't even kill a single Reaper. Tough luck defeating them with that.
[quote]No direct correleation.[/quote]Oh, get out if you can't accept that your argument was defeated.
Seconds (or at the same time?) that Shepard defeats the avatar, you can see the shields malfuctioning.
The camera zooms out, not a single Alliance ship in the area. Not a single projectile fired towards Sovereign.
Sovereign starts to fall.
First ship to come close is the Normandy, which notes that the shields are down.
You then see from a distance several cruisers firing at it.
The camera changes it's angle again and shows that these cruisers are just within the area inside the arms, unlike the initial attack.
The Normandy moves in and causes the falling Sovereign to fall.
[quote]I have and I'm not convinced. Youre proof is not proof, it's specualtion.[/quote] Except that you have a video showing that there are no Alliance ships around Sovereign, and you don't see a single projectile being shot during the few seconds before the shields malfunction and Sovereign falls, no one fires for several seconds, until after the Normandy moves in and reports that the Reaper's shields are down.
Seriously? What a pitiful argument.
[quote]Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish. Such baseless claims I have not seen for ages. Do you know how one ensures dominance? BY BEING STORNGER THAN THE OTEHR GUY! Since when does that automaticly imply killign the other guy? [/quote] Human dominance against the Reapers. Think before you rage.
[quote]They're going to use your own captured bases and resources to repair and re-chanrge. Tehy dont' have to come back. And while you're fleet are wasting their time prancing about in vacuum, the reapers will sterilize your worlds.[/quote]Oh, that's delightful, how exactly will the Reapers use our bases considering that they have no...hands? And yes, they do need to come back to dark space. The cycle sort of breaks if they don't. If you disable the Citadel relay, they'll have to go back...on foot. Not very good considering that they have already lost energy.
[quote]Not to mention that dark space is jsut that..dark space.. sapce between galaxies. There's nothing there. the reapers chill there because nobody will find them there.[/quote] Maybe, maybe not. They still somehow need to repair themselves and recharge, something impossible with incombatible equipment, all you need to do is send a recon drone anyway, hardly a waste of time, and destroying the Citadel Relay could very well cancel their next cycle.
[quote]If you can create super-weapons with normal tech, then you can create EVEN BETTER super-weapons with reaper tech. Hence, researching the CB is not useless.[/quote]Hint: You can not create superweapons with 2185 tech. You said it yourself, I think that it was something in the lines of:
"Hahah comparing two civilizations with each other that have made no contact :lol::lol::lol::lol:"
Well, I think I got the smiley part right at least.
And fyi, the remains of Sovereign were the remains of a 2km Reaper being, and look how that turned out. But noooo, a 100m component obviously carries more technolodgy.
[quote]When did you personally go into the lab to clear the sitation for any governmental agency? [/quote][/quote]The enly reason you know about Cerberus lab accidents is because you went into those labs. I dont' think the governmental agencies would want you in their labs. And history is full of lab mishaps.... [/quote] Except that scientists work with much more...explosive and dangerous technolodgy every single day, and most of it is not "supah seccrit".
And I'll try to forget about how you claimed that hundrends of scientists die on secret scientific projects. Oh, and by the way, those secret projects eventually go public. I have yet to see a report on such idiotic scientists.
[quote]How do you know it's even feasable, or that it's really undetectable by the reapers?[/quote]Uh, if it's emissions are not detectable and it is invisible, it can't be detectable, especially if it is going to be microscopic, which means that the Reapers can not shoot it down either. And it's perfectly feasible, all you need to do is split the atom, heh.
It's something definitely looking into, and it definitely carries more certainty and less what ifs than...guess what, the CB.
[quote]The shield collapsed under the barrage. Interstingly enough, if you talk to Hackett about it, he at no point even hints that their weapons were completely ineffective - no does he mention that without Sheppard, they would have never been able to take down Sovereign.The armor too took a beating from the entire fleet. The hit from the normandy and the bombers was the "Coup De grace"[/quote]The shield did not collapse under the barrage, it's on video. No shots were fired before or during the collapse of the shield. And according to my plan, I don't even need for the shields to collapse.
And you don't ever talk to Hackett during the Battle of the Citadel which makes your argument BS.
The armor did take a beating, not from the entire fleet of course, considering that part of it was destroyed, but even if it did, their firepower would never match the firepower of a futurstic atomic bomb.
[quote]They don't have to block anything..you assuem you can force them to even pay attention to your singnals.And your spam attack? at best it will annoy them...good work, you just pissed them off even more....[/quote]Yes, as I said, you have no idea how signals or sensors work. They will need to block your signals from their sensors in order to not receive them, and having to block signals from sensors one by one can definitely take a lot of their processing power, and hey, what stops me from sending billions of signals at all times in the general location?
[quote]Then you did a p** poor investigaion. [/quote] Yet another excellent rebuttal, a component of a Reaper that stores genetic material is obviously more important than unknown technolodgy....because. Yes, that's why, because.
Pleeease.
[quote]Sez who?[/quote] "Except that it is likely that the SB has already found it. And no, I wouldn't spend any time, Shepard is a soldier, don't be silly. And no, Prothean tech is much less complicated than Reaper one."
Just because you can't defend an argument, don't throw generic punchline responses. Reaper technolodgy is the product of billions of years of technolodgical evolution, not the Prothean one, which in the 2140s was deciphered by humanity and lead them to the discovery of the mass effect.
[quote]And how does that trump over reaper tech being superior?[/quote] Oh, but I don't want to use it as a weapon. It could very well be an evacuation device, remember, the SB wanted to save his own ass with it, not anyone else's. Assigning a team of scientists is definitely worth it.
[quote Who's to say that the gun and barrier weren't supposed ot be installed later? Who's to say they aren't in the base storae somewhere, sjut waiting? And if it didn't have any protection, then why can you only hurt it by shooting at a specific spot? You DO have a reaper..reaper larva is still a reaper. TI still has reper tech in it.[/quote] Who says that it was supposed to be installed later? Actually, don't even bother, the lavra was built step by step, otherwise, they wouldn't need to collect humans before creating the Reaper. Notice how they were harvesting humans while creating the genetic material holder component.
And please, the HR's "armor" just doesn't take damage from ARs, which makes sense, any ship's armor wouldn't. You actually have a whole Reaper with an exoskeleton, againt a little component of the Reaper without an exoskeleton. You call that protection?
[quote]Nononononononononono. Utterly wrong. How the hell do you come to the conclusion that it doesn't offer anything usefull?? It's jsut...incomprehensible.[/quote]...because i...t didn't provide anything useful? It turned humans into goo and stored it into a component that fired petty GARDIAN lasers at you and had lame protection.
[quote]The mechanical "frame" of the HR was built on that base. Al lthe toehr extras too. Teh gun it shoots at you.. Teh sensory units.. al lthe mechanical bits and pieces that make it move around and do stuff - all of those were built at hte bese - tehy didn't jsut spring full formed out of vacuum. The idea that all of the reaper tech in the CB was jsut for making goo is redicolous. Utterly rediclous.[/quote] rofl
The mechanical frame? Not unless the Reaper is 100 m long and not 2km long. And that doesn't make it useful. The gun that shoots you? I have already talked about it, it's nothing special, the lasers of three Occuli have the same effect as it, and it is overall less powerful than the GARDIAN array of a Reaper or a cruiser. The mechanical bits that make it move that were "built at hte bese"? Yeah, what about them? It's a moving superstructure, what's up with that?
[quote]wat? I dont' understand your point here at all... [/quote] Uh...
1) Shutting down mass relays kind of slows the Reapers down. Why would the Reapers do that again?
2) Shooting relativistic objects from mass relays kind of defeats the point of harvesting.
Why would they even do that? They are literally living warships.
Spies cannot take over nations. TIM cerantly doesn't have the funds for that (especialyo since any nation he would go up agaisnt has a thousand time more funds), and I didn't seem him buy and hearts and minds...
"These include the Ever Alert, who kept armies at bay with hidden facts; another, known as the Silent Step, was so successful he once defeated a nation with a single shot."
assasination. Pft. Big deal.
Tell me, did that spy also take over the same nation? no.. well, we have nothing to talk about then..
Unless it specificly states they the nation surrendered, then it's nothing definite.. (and what nation would be pathetic neough to surrender so easily?)
The Galaxy surived the Geth. What actually happened in Overlord? No great catastrophy.
Oh, nothing. Cerberus scientists were only about to let a very dangerous VI loose on the extranet, because they couldn't just disable the communications remotely.
2. Yes, anyone with a brain can salvage that derelict Reaper. Just use mechs that are immune to indoctrination. If there's a sign of danger, no normal scientist would throw themselves into the fire. No scientists that actually know how to use their brains, anyway.
That makes no sense. How do you stufy the effects of indoctrination on humans wihout exposing humans to it? How do you nkow which device is safe to study and whihc not? And lastly, there's planety ofscientist who would throw themselves into the fire, if they belives their sacrifice was worth somethin.
Wow, that's 1930's science right there. How about trying to analyze what it is first, before throwing people into the furnace? People that could've helped in more ways than one if they weren't indoctrinated since they're scientists, by the way.
3. Cerberus is asking their experiments to backfire, because they have little to no safeguards installed. None that are quick and effective, anyway.
Where do you get that they have no safeguards installed? As I said before, experimetns backfire. Lab accidents happen, even with many safeguards.
Again. Overlord. Could've stopped that failure from the start if they'd just isolated everything before procceeding to work on the VI they had little to no knowledge about how it'd behave. And Jack. Oh, boy, could've they have had more safeguards, like disabling her biotic amplifiers. Would've avoided a disaster.
Rogue VIs happens all the time. It's not something you can predict. Cerberus is messing with something beyond VIs and are just asking to be slaughtered.
Ah..so everyone esle who f*** up is excused? and how do you know others arne't messing with dangerous stuff? Turians have been also messing with reapers tech!
Weaksauce argument!
If you mean the events with the Reaper artifact on Pavalen, then please point me to where I said that everyone that's messing with tehcnology they have no idea of how it works except Cerberus are excused. The turians screwed up big time too.
Your "arguments" seems to always be "rofl that didnt happen u fail lolz", which is getting pretty tiresome.
Lotion Soronnar wrote... Sauce.. which nation? When and where?
Unless it specificly states they the nation surrendered, then it's nothing definite.. (and what nation would be pathetic neough to surrender so easily?)
Oh, actually, no, you are wrong.
He defeated a nation with a single shot. Unless you say that he comitted genocide, then that nation was disbanded or surrendered.
And for your argument to stand, you would really really really rather he just had that nation surrender.
Wow, holy wall of text Batman. Phaedon, that was brutal. For the sake of mine eyes, please parcel.
Lotion, you are being very closed minded here. You are clinging very hard to a stark black and white reality when I would wager there are very few decisions any player made (through their Shepard's) that they feel 100% about one way or they other.
There is no positive equaling the negative, there is no 100 ships for or against us. The results will be what they are, and you have to deal with the consequences you actually have rather than the consequences you may have incurred.
Worrying about what might have happened with any particular scenario isn't realistic or useful, you only get to deal with the actual morality you are presented with. We don't know what the Rachni will do in ME3, but we do that it isn't fair to question the morality of someone who chooses to spare them until we actually know what the consequences end up being.
TL:DR = You can't judge people for what their actions might have caused. You can say they were reckless, didn't think things through, etc etc, but you can't call them immoral until you know that the Rachni actually cause harm if spared. Same with blowing up the collector's base. We just don't know yet, all we have are Shep's motives, not results.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote... Teh kill ration is jsut an example. It doesn't change the issue.[/quote]
No, your kill ratio DOESN'T exist. You couldn't kill Reapers with conventional weapons before, you can't now. For starters, there is no new conventional weapon on the HR.
[quote]If I expends LESS resources and lives to take out a single repaer, then that IS making a difference.[/quote]
Guess what.
It. Doesn't.
At no point did conventional weaponry take a Reaper down, and there is no reason for that to change. You never needed MORE resources to destroy a Reaper.
It doesn't make a single difference.[/quote]
And I say ti does. You have no proof conventional weaponry can't kill a repaer - in fact, we know mass accelerators cna kill them (the derelict reaper) If reapers cannot even be hurt at all, why doesn't no one in the game acknowledge that?
[quote] [quote]Absolutely yes. Odds change with the weapon tech.
If it takes 20 shots to take down a reaper shield instead of 50, then the odds have gone way up. [/quote]
As much as you like to evade the facts, it doesn't take 50 shots to take down a Reaper. All we know is that it takes more than two big fleets.
For all we know, Reapers have a regeneration program for their shields which means that theoretically, conventional weaponry could never take them down.
Regeneration only works if the rate of regeneration is greater then the drain. Death of a thousand cuts.... Conventional weaponry can work.
Conventional weaponry never took a Reaper out. Improved conventional weaponry won't do anything either.
Again, sez who?
And here's (another) major hole in your theory. You claim that Cerberus works alone and that they can not create a navy, and yet you expect advanced conventional weaponry (that doesn't exist in the base) to be equipped over all major fleets so that they have a chance to take a single Reaper down.
How does that work exactly, I wonder. By feeding tech data and any advancecements to the Allaicne. Then the Alliance retrofits and modifies their ships. Reper tech can be used to icrese effectivens of existing technolgoy and weapons. Hence, advanced conventional weaponry. [/quote]
[quote] [quote]I'm not kidding. Since your understanding of technolgoiy is laughable.
Technology ins't a infelxible rod. Technology (and knowledge) is like lego bricks - the more you have it, the more different things you can cobble together, even those that aren't immediately obvious. As history has shown us, many inventions and devices made for one purpose, made advancement possible in may other areas. Tech designed for war found compeltely different use in every-day applications, and vice-versa.
You don't actualylhave to find a reper shield emmiter to find tech that can be used to improve your own shield emmiters. (and just because the HR didnt' have a kinetic barrier active, doesn't mean it didn't have some components for it installed, or that they weren't stored somewhere in the base)[/quote] Uh, that's not how it works.
There is very specific technolodgy attached on the Reaper. None of which, at any point can defeat (combined with conventional tech or not) a Reaper.
Bettter canons doesn't mean anything when canons can't do anything to a Reaper. Combined tech only offers improvements, you need brand new tech to come out of the base, something that doesn't exist.
Oh, and guess what. I'll be generous and say that the size of the lavra was 100m. The size of an actual Reaper is 2 kilometers. The purpose of the lavra component is to store genetic material.
Not only is there nothing to suggest that the Human Reaper had a kinetic barrier generator, but there is, in fact, evidence to suggest that there wasn't such thing. Generators create ME fields, which should be able to protect the HR at any time, that didn't happen, did it?
Oh, and you let a radioactive pulse destroy the Collectors, no? You might want to research it's effects.[/quote]
Yes, that's exactly how it works.. dear lord..... Have you any idea what advancement and innovation is? Nope, apparently you don't.
Technolgoy interacts in many unexpected ways. I don't need an alien gun to create a better gun. I can find an alien microwave, and use technolgoy from that to create a better gun. Or a new gun. Or something else entirely.
And yes..teh larva that clearly has mettalic components, sensory equipemnt and a gun, has NO technoligy inside...despite it beign a frikkin terminator with a extra goo tank.
Congrats for not actuallyy debunking anything I said....
[quote] [quote]I told you - pretty much ehanced everything. Shield, weapons, power transfer efficiency, alloys, construction ,etc, etc... The possiblities are endless.[/quote] No, the possibilies are quite finite.
Conventional weapons, power transfer efficiency and alloys already exist. And they have no effect on a shielded Reaper, as we can see.
Whether they are improved or not, doesn't change the fact that fundamentally they can't touch a single Reaper, let alone several.
That position is fundamentally contradicted by my very initial point. No matter how useful the improvements are: a) The ships will always have less damage potential, protection, reaction time than the Reapers, The Reaper fleet will at all times outnumber you.[/quote]
The possibilites are endless. I'm not to blame your mind cannot count past 10.
a) you may have less damage and protection, but this is where tactics come in. Devide the reapers, flank them, focus fire. Smaller armies can sometimes carry home a victory.
We don't know the exact number of hte reaper fleet. Speculation. And you can stil lfight back by using guerilla tactics.
[quote] [quote]It does. Because it's a game and some liberties are therefore taken. Remeber how rare mages are uspposed to be in the DA setting? But even if we assume the game is 100% accurate in representing that, it's still just a few hunderd soldiers tops.[/quote] A few specialized hundreds of soldiers are as much an army as you need them to be, especially for guerilla warfare, terrorism or assisations.
And you have no point. If the story tells you that Cerberus sent brigades of commandos to several planets, then they did. They obviously have the supplies and the troops for these actions.[/quote]
Lets see them try do that if the galaxy really focuses on them. Cerberus surives because it's in the shadows and doesn't draw much attention to itself. A few hunderd soldiers are insignificent next to the manpower and firepower of the alliance.
[quote] [quote]The galaxy has a sea of soldiers. Humans themselves have an army compromising 3% of ppopulation (IIRC) and that population is 12 billion. Add to that number the turans, asari, krogan, salarians and all the others....then do the math.[/quote]
First of, someone working for the military is not necessarily a soldier, and that still doesn't make them billions. You should probably do the math. The Alliance currently has only 360.000 operatives. Not even a million.[/quote]
Sauce? Your claim is hilarious...that the entire humanity ha ssuch a small army. China alone has a bigger army TODAY.
[quote] [quote]And yes..Navy. Cerbers has no warships. Cruisers and Dreadnoughts are something only races have the infrastructure and reasources to build (and are allowed to) What's Cerberus gonan do with a bunch of transport ships against hunderds of warships? Even with enhanced weaposn and shield and armor, they'd be blown away in seconds.
Again, look up LOGISTICS..[/quote] That contradicts your logic, you said yourself, that if if Cerberus acquires the CB tech, they can improve the kill ratio. Now, how does that work?
And no, you don't need a single ship to win a war. Guerilla warfare, political assasinations and infiltration are enough, with the presence of course of kill squads when things get tough.[/quote]
This is space. To get to any planet you need to use Mass Relays. Which can be blockaded. Yes, you need ships to win space wars. Space is the ultimate high gorund. If you're not holding it, you're not holding the planet. It's that simple.
And no contradiction there either. Civilain ships cannot match military ships - neither in training, nor experience, nor firepower. A few cerberus ships can't do squat agaisnt a fleet. Too big a size differece, too big a numbers difference.
[quote] [quote]1. Tim doesn't want to take over the galaxy.[/quote] He wants human domination, though Shepard is sure that he wants Cerberus domination. So there.[/quote]
Human dominatiosn DOES NOT equal enslaving other races.
[quote] [quote]2. The Alliance is pretty much a democracy. TIM can't go to war agaisnt the galaxy, even if he could somehow completely infliltrate the vast political sctruture, which in itself is silly. That apparatus is too large and it's not like that apparatus doesn't defned itself from infiiltration. And he'd never get the popular support to boot. Cerberus does have some ties with the Alliance military-industrial complex tough..[/quote]
You have no idea how this works, do you? How about you read up some SB entries.
Cerberus has already done smear campaigns on candidates to ensure that their own sponsored candidate gets to power, political assasinations, and bribes. That's all they need.[/quote]
Adn that's not enough. Tehre's a limit to how many candidates or politicians you can "rig" at once. There's a limti to what you can do for a small organization like Cerberus. Heck, entire nations tried to ursurp countries using such methods, and failed. And what about populat support? how do you think he'd get the people of hte Alliance to follow?
[quote] [quote]But assuming Cerberus really coudl get popular support...then it's not really Cerberus anymore, it IS humantiy at that point.[/quote] Except that even if the elections are not set up, Cerberus can plant lies, propaganda and do smear campaigns, so that's definitely not what democracy is about.[/quote]
That's exactly what democracy is about. And who even cares? If most of the humanity is behind him, then it IS humanity by definition.
[quote] [quote]3. And no, Cerberus can't whip up a fleet and army just like that, base or no base. Ships aren't built overnight and require a huge investment in resources. Army requires an upkeep. Again logistics, logistics, logistics, logistics. There is absolutely, positively NO way Cerberus can whip up a navy or army that would present any credible threat to any nation. [/quote] Yes, repeat the word logistics, when there is an entire game and a comic that already contradict you.
Cerberus does have a fleet already, the money to create a bigger one, and a lot of commandos. And they don't even need them.
That's what everyone keeps telling you. But you don't want to listen. All they need to do is kill some unwanted people, bribe here and there, do smear campaigns, and they can have a puppet government in no time.[/quote]
Nothing contradicts me. You're talking nonsese that even a 1st grader would know not to say.
Cerberus doesn't have a fleet, it doesn't have a real army, it doesn't the the faciltities ot create OR support it. It doesn't have the support, it doesn't have the resources.
And no, it can't just "create puppet government" like that. So simple. So easy. Which is why KGB and CIA rule hte world...right?
[quote] [quote]4. How else to secure human domination? By making sure humanity is #1 economicly, politicly and military. domination does not reaure war, or taking over or ensalving anyone. It happens if you have enough power automaticly. Every nation wants to dominate. It is natural.[/quote] Uh-huh, nice try trying to evade my point.
How does one ensure human domination over the Reapers, peacefully? And beyond them?[/quote]
Peacefully? You don't. Reapers don't seem like the negotiating type.
For beyond...the same as I wrote above.
[quote] [quote]You can't take over a nation wihout an army.[/quote] Uh, yes you can. [/quoteg
No, you can't. Especially not if 10 other neighbouring nations don't want you there.
[quote] [quote]I don't recall dragons teeth in the CB. But let's for a second assume your'e right. It still changes nothing. Producing husks (whih are rather pathetic foot soldiers) requires resources and time. And it still only one base. Other races[/quote] And you are obviously wrong.
The CB is the only CB of course, and it has husks, and produces scions. Oh, and resources? They already have what seems to be a fleet of rogue husks in ME3.
Oh, and pathetic foot soldiers? Tell that to Aria's men in Invasion, or her personally in Incursion, or the human ground forces in ME3.[/quote]
I am obviously right. Producing requires resources and time. Other races have many station and shipyards, not one. tehy have many recruiting stations and vast militaries.
Cerberus cannot make an army that could seriously threaten the galaxy. It is simply impossible.
[quote] [quote]Those they screened before. Their recruitment pool is a lot smaller and the speed of recruitment much smaller, since tehy have to watch out for their secrecy. Normal army has a recruitign poster and commercials - and anyone can join. Cerberus has to hide it's recruitment and pick candidates carefully (one snitch and your entire cell can be gone) [/quote] Source? Actually, no, don't even try. The Lazarus Cell, Joker, Chakwas, Ken, Gabby and the rest say that you are wrong. They weren't screened before, they were screened at that time, exactly. Hell, they only recruited Ken because he attracted their attention.
And secrecy? BS. They have no problem with deploying 15 feet tall mechs, and they shouldn't. Why should they maintain secrecy a little before a Reaper invasion?[/quote]
Source? Common sense and logic. It's how cell-based organizations that try to stay under the radar operate BY NECESSITY.
Of course, in the game Cerberus does diplay it's logo openly, but hey... its just bad game deisgn. and agian, story and gameply segragation.
[quote] [quote]Money is not logistics...[/quote] Logistics has everything to do with money and where you invest it.[/quote]
It's more than just money, which you obviously cannot grasp.
[quote] No, you didn't "wattechedhthe" video. TIM openly admits wanting to secure human domination against the Reapers and beyond. How peaceful domination over the Reapers is possible is beyond me.[/quote]
I did watch the video. You're strething the sentance to ludocrisy. Dominance can be achieved in several ways. Where does he say he plans to dominate both in the exactly same way?
You got nothing. Your sentance is not proof.
[quote] Also, Cerberus' manifesto has been described as "anti-alien", TIM believes that the aliens stop humanity from it's rightful position (How I love national socialism) when in fact, humanity was one of the most powerful species with a seat on the Council. Read Ascension.[/quote]
discribed by WHOM? Wanthing to be the top dog is now wrong and ayn race does it. IF you think the Asari leadership doesn't want ot dominate..or that teh turian or salarian or all others dont' want to dominate...you're delluding yourself.
Every nation looks out for it's own interests. Every nations wants ot be first.
[quote] [quote]You call a transport ship a navy? [/quote] A single transport ship? Are you serious? They have a full transport fleet and nowhere is it mentioned if those ships actually have weapons or if they are the only Cerberus fleet. In any case, TIM can obviously produce fleets.[/quote]
Missing a s at the end of ship...typo.
Anyway, trasnport ships cannot match miltiary ships. You cannot produce a dreadnought just like that any more you can produce a carrier today.
As I said again - Cerberus is like Blackwater. If you think Blackwater (cerberus) can take on the US (Alliance) and hte rest of hte world (Council race..whichwoul be stronger than that, but what the heck), then you're living in a land of fantasy.
[quote] [quote]What happens when the alliance is on to Cerberus? When the Council races set up miitary patrols and checkpoints? How will you deliver your troops then?[/quote] And how will they do that? The remains of their forces are on the run very early into the Reaper invasion. And as I said, they could very well control the Alliance if they wish.[/quote]
BS.
[quote] [quote]Again, we're takign about Cerberius invading planets. It stands no chance to even get close, lt alone land and deply troops. Al ltheri ships would be blown out of hte sky.[/quote] Derpity derp. No we are not, and no they wouldn't.
We are talking about Cerberus establishing violent Cerberus domination over the other races which could be done even without the commandos, and no, no ships would be shot down from the sky. The Reapers are attacking key defensive positions.[/quote]
Yes they would. It's so pointelss for Cerberus to even try and establish dominion while the reapers evade. Who are they going to dominate over? a dead galaxy? The'll be reaped too. And they are and reamin a small risk, copared to every OTHER potential risk in the galaxy.
Adn if you're so concerned about the security risk the Cererus presents..why arne't you conerned with the securtiy risk others present? What if hte Asari turn on you? Far, FAAAR worse thany Cerberus....or Krogan? Or Salarains? Let's face it, they have just as much reason to betray you as Cerberus.
[quote] [quote]Ever hear of a pardon?[/quote] Ever heard of it being given to terrorists most of their operations not having anything to do with the Reaper threat? Oh, and I thought that you were talking about secrecy?[/quote]
Secrecy will not be an issue of the reapers win. Adn yes, pardon for saving hte Galaxy? Defiantely.
[quote]It very well could. Again, you misundertant what domination is. The US is a a dominant force in the world today. I dont' see slave collars on me..do you?[/quote] Uh, no it isn't. Their economy has the greatest debt of human history, whether they have the most powerful military in the world is extremely debatable, and the EU nations as a whole have greater diplomatic power because they can cast multiple votes.
[quote] [quote]Very bad Bio wariting b.t.w.[/quote]And if that's your logic, I'll just claim that those are precisely your average Cerberus operatives. PROVE ME WRONG.[/quote] Easy. The Lazarus Cell consists of only 24 members, multiple of which having either been recruited recently or are familiar to Shepard, and their leaders support Shepard for destroying the base. Definitely your average cell, huh.
Instead, you have operatives who willingly went ahead and: a) Abducted and experimented on children, Attacked the Alliance and the Migrant Fleet, c) Were OK with forcing an autistic person into becoming a supercomputer that is restrained in a horrendous manner, d) Are admitted racists (Kai Leng and his squad), do I need to go on?[/quote]
Yes, you do.
You cannot prove to me that alien hate and desire to destroyall other alien is a common trait among cerberus memebers. Heck, you cannot even prove that conquering/enslaving aliesn is Cerberuses goal.
[quote] [quote]Reapers and beyond....what is the beyond? How do you know there aren't other dangers in the galaxy, even worse than the reapers?[/quote]Better yet, how does TIM know that they are? When the Reapers apparently don't. Please, don't be hillarious.[/quote]
You don't have to know. Be prepared.
[quote] [quote]You didnt..[/quote]Hint: Every projectile that is not a disruptor torpedo is mass accelerated.
Even the ones from pistols. No allied force has a superweapon that can fire like the Klendangon canon did.
It's basically the same with saying, "oh hey, a pistol has mass accelerated projectiles. And guess what, the superweapon had mass accelerated projectiles too!"
And last time I checked, the superweapon only fired once, and it didn't even kill a single Reaper. Tough luck defeating them with that.[/quote]
You missed hte point. Masss accelerators clearly CAN pierce reaper shield. It's just a matter of power or volume of fire.
[quote] [quote]No direct correleation.[/quote]Oh, get out if you can't accept that your argument was defeated. [/quote]
I won't, because it wasn't.
[quote] [/b]Except that you have a video showing that there are no Alliance ships around Sovereign, and you don't see a single projectile being shot during the few seconds before the shields malfunction and Sovereign falls, no one fires for several seconds, until after the Normandy moves in and reports that the Reaper's shields are down.
Seriously? What a pitiful argument.[/quote]
You dont' have to see them in the video. It's not liek ships have to be kissing the sovereigns ass to be in range to shoot it. Also, mass accelerated projectiles tend ot be redicolously fast. And well..ti's a cutsce that wasn't done propery..
[quote] [quote]Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish. Such baseless claims I have not seen for ages. Do you know how one ensures dominance? BY BEING STORNGER THAN THE OTEHR GUY! Since when does that automaticly imply killign the other guy? [/quote] Human dominance against the Reapers. Think before you rage.[/quote]
If you are stronger then you can also take out a potential threat. Do some thinking yourself.
[quote] [quote]They're going to use your own captured bases and resources to repair and re-chanrge. Tehy dont' have to come back. And while you're fleet are wasting their time prancing about in vacuum, the reapers will sterilize your worlds.[/quote]Oh, that's delightful, how exactly will the Reapers use our bases considering that they have no...hands? And yes, they do need to come back to dark space. The cycle sort of breaks if they don't. If you disable the Citadel relay, they'll have to go back...on foot. Not very good considering that they have already lost energy.[/quote]
Husks..indoctrination...other stuff. So yeas, they can easiyl supply of your worlds.
And disableing the Citadel? They have all the time in the world to re-establish the connection while they extermiante the last pockets of resistance. Heck, they cna take their sweet time to build a completely new Citadel...
[quote] [quote]If you can create super-weapons with normal tech, then you can create EVEN BETTER super-weapons with reaper tech. Hence, researching the CB is not useless.[/quote]Hint: You can not create superweapons with 2185 tech. You said it yourself, I think that it was something in the lines of:
"Hahah comparing two civilizations with each other that have made no contact :lol::lol::lol::lol:"
Well, I think I got the smiley part right at least.
And fyi, the remains of Sovereign were the remains of a 2km Reaper being, and look how that turned out. But noooo, a 100m component obviously carries more technolodgy.[/quote]
I have said what? Your argument makes no sense. IT was YOU claim that you cna create reaper-killing super-weapons with current tech. What you smokin?
[quote]
And I'll try to forget about how you claimed that hundrends of scientists die on secret scientific projects. Oh, and by the way, those secret projects eventually go public. I have yet to see a report on such idiotic scientists. [/quote]
What goes public is only what's allowed to go public.
[quote] [quote]How do you know it's even feasable, or that it's really undetectable by the reapers?[/quote]Uh, if it's emissions are not detectable and it is invisible, it can't be detectable, especially if it is going to be microscopic, which means that the Reapers can not shoot it down either. And it's perfectly feasible, all you need to do is split the atom, heh.
It's something definitely looking into, and it definitely carries more certainty and less what ifs than...guess what, the CB.[/quote]
I meant the missile, genius!
[quote] [quote]The shield collapsed under the barrage. Interstingly enough, if you talk to Hackett about it, he at no point even hints that their weapons were completely ineffective - no does he mention that without Sheppard, they would have never been able to take down Sovereign.The armor too took a beating from the entire fleet. The hit from the normandy and the bombers was the "Coup De grace"[/quote]The shield did not collapse under the barrage, it's on video. No shots were fired before or during the collapse of the shield. And according to my plan, I don't even need for the shields to collapse.
And you don't ever talk to Hackett during the Battle of the Citadel which makes your argument BS.
The armor did take a beating, not from the entire fleet of course, considering that part of it was destroyed, but even if it did, their firepower would never match the firepower of a futurstic atomic bomb.[/quote]
You talk to Hacket in arrival..you can talk about Sovereign. He seems mighty sure the Alliance can take on a repaer, but not many of them.
[quote] [quote]They don't have to block anything..you assuem you can force them to even pay attention to your singnals.And your spam attack? at best it will annoy them...good work, you just pissed them off even more....[/quote]Yes, as I said, you have no idea how signals or sensors work. They will need to block your signals from their sensors in order to not receive them, and having to block signals from sensors one by one can definitely take a lot of their processing power, and hey, what stops me from sending billions of signals at all times in the general location?[/quote]
you have no idea how the reapers work OR how communicatiosn work apparently...
[quote] [quote]Then you did a p** poor investigaion. [/quote] Yet another excellent rebuttal, a component of a Reaper that stores genetic material is obviously more important than unknown technolodgy....because. Yes, that's why, because.
Pleeease.[qutoe]
because it doesn't only do that. You fail.
[quote] [quote]Sez who?[/quote] "Except that it is likely that the SB has already found it. And no, I wouldn't spend any time, Shepard is a soldier, don't be silly. And no, Prothean tech is much less complicated than Reaper one."
Just because you can't defend an argument, don't throw generic punchline responses. Reaper technolodgy is the product of billions of years of technolodgical evolution, not the Prothean one, which in the 2140s was deciphered by humanity and lead them to the discovery of the mass effect.[/quote]
It's you who can't defend an argument here.
[quote] Who says that it was supposed to be installed later? Actually, don't even bother, the lavra was built step by step, otherwise, they wouldn't need to collect humans before creating the Reaper. Notice how they were harvesting humans while creating the genetic material holder component.[/quote]
You cannot prove anything here. You have no idea what tech is in the reaper core and hte base. NONE.
[quote] [quote]Nononononononononono. Utterly wrong. How the hell do you come to the conclusion that it doesn't offer anything usefull?? It's jsut...incomprehensible.[/quote]...because i...t didn't provide anything useful? It turned humans into goo and stored it into a component that fired petty GARDIAN lasers at you and had lame protection.[/quote]
You are again blinded by your inabiltiy to think. Technolgy isn't just a laser. Just because you don't see anything usefull, doesn't mean there aren't things that are more usefull than your pethetic mind could possibly imagine!
[quote] [quote]The mechanical "frame" of the HR was built on that base. Al lthe toehr extras too. Teh gun it shoots at you.. Teh sensory units.. al lthe mechanical bits and pieces that make it move around and do stuff - all of those were built at hte bese - tehy didn't jsut spring full formed out of vacuum. The idea that all of the reaper tech in the CB was jsut for making goo is redicolous. Utterly rediclous.[/quote] rofl
The mechanical frame? Not unless the Reaper is 100 m long and not 2km long. And that doesn't make it useful. The gun that shoots you? I have already talked about it, it's nothing special, the lasers of three Occuli have the same effect as it, and it is overall less powerful than the GARDIAN array of a Reaper or a cruiser. The mechanical bits that make it move that were "built at hte bese"? Yeah, what about them? It's a moving superstructure, what's up with that?[/quoteg
You're so full of BS.
Finding out inner workings of hte reaper tech, evne if it might be weaker tech, still enables you huge leaps forward in technology. speaking relaisticly, just the hand of that human reaper would be a treasure throve of information.
[quote] [quote]wat? [b]I dont' understand your point here at all... [/quote] Uh...
1) Shutting down mass relays kind of slows the Reapers down. Why would the Reapers do that again?
2) Shooting relativistic objects from mass relays kind of defeats the point of harvesting.
Why would they even do that? They are literally living warships. [/quote]
How does that makes em LESS of the masters over the technolgoy they invented?
Retour en haut
The Reaper fleet will at all times outnumber you.
[/quote]
:lol:
