3618 réponses à ce sujet

[CamlTowPetttingZoo]

I destroy the base every time even though I see that there may be possible benefits. I don't see how in 6 months to a years time Cerberus is supposed to get a large enough crew together to start deciphering everything on that ship. Then at the same time they are supposed to start creating enough weapons to work against the reapers and then implement them into the field all while the invasion is happening. If he does accomplish all this, is he then going to allow aliens access to weapons that could be used against humans if we somehow do defeat the reapers?

If keeping that base and giving it to TIM means that we automatically win then I guess all my Shepard's will be screwed. Every time I come to that choice I stop and think, is this a good idea, do I trust this base to do more good then harm, do I trust TIM, do I trust the technology after the derelict reaper, do I allow the colonists to have died in vain or do I take this and hope to avenge them in some way?

That base could hold secrets, it could just as easily screw us over, we don't know. I'm willing to eliminate the possibility of a lot of things backfiring with that thing before it has the chance to.

[BlueMagitek]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

As for the Rachni Queen, we know this is literally the first contact between the Rachni and any species. We don't know enough about them to make an informed decision.

You know their very nature makes them incompatible with the rest of galactic society, so conflict is inevitable...

Conflict may come, yes.  But we know that Rachni are excellent workers and should be great at working in places with awful conditions, and given that humanity was the race that let them return to strength when other races wished for their extermination, well.... 

On the chance that it completely backfires, well, that's what the God Emperor is for.

[111987]

CamlTowPetttingZoo wrote...

I destroy the base every time even though I see that there may be possible benefits. I don't see how in 6 months to a years time Cerberus is supposed to get a large enough crew together to start deciphering everything on that ship. Then at the same time they are supposed to start creating enough weapons to work against the reapers and then implement them into the field all while the invasion is happening. If he does accomplish all this, is he then going to allow aliens access to weapons that could be used against humans if we somehow do defeat the reapers?

If keeping that base and giving it to TIM means that we automatically win then I guess all my Shepard's will be screwed. Every time I come to that choice I stop and think, is this a good idea, do I trust this base to do more good then harm, do I trust TIM, do I trust the technology after the derelict reaper, do I allow the colonists to have died in vain or do I take this and hope to avenge them in some way?

That base could hold secrets, it could just as easily screw us over, we don't know. I'm willing to eliminate the possibility of a lot of things backfiring with that thing before it has the chance to.

To be fair, the Turians came up with the Thanix Cannon in 6 months, so I think they could definitley salvage something by the time the Reapers arrive. I don't have a problem with your other points though

[GuardianAngel470]

It's a little late, but I just thought I'd post my morality poll in here to help with context about the community. Feel free to vote if you haven't as I never closed it.

http://social.biowar...94/polls/19358/

[SandTrout]

111987 wrote...

True. But would you trust giving the Genophage cure to a traditionalist like Wreav? I think Wrex could be trusted with it, but Wreav or any successor of his would more than likely renew the Krogan Rebellions, and since the galaxy will be in such a devastated state after the Reaper War...the Krogan just might conquer/enslave/exterminate everyone else.

Who said anything about necessarily handing the cure over to the Krogan? I intend to retain possession and only apply it selectively to those who are not as aggressive as most of the species. Wrex woud definitely be cured, but I would not apply it en-mass, as the results would be another series of Krogan Rebellions. By being highly selective about which Krogan we apply it to, we can funcionally remove the Blood Rage from most of the population. I might consider handing it over to Wrex if he agrees with my plan for remolding the Krogan. None of my playthroughs have Wreave, so that's not really an issue for me.

@Kaiser,

What aspect of the Rachni make them any more incompatable with galactic society than any other species?

[111987]

SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

True. But would you trust giving the Genophage cure to a traditionalist like Wreav? I think Wrex could be trusted with it, but Wreav or any successor of his would more than likely renew the Krogan Rebellions, and since the galaxy will be in such a devastated state after the Reaper War...the Krogan just might conquer/enslave/exterminate everyone else.

Who said anything about necessarily handing the cure over to the Krogan? I intend to retain possession and only apply it selectively to those who are not as aggressive as most of the species. Wrex woud definitely be cured, but I would not apply it en-mass, as the results would be another series of Krogan Rebellions. By being highly selective about which Krogan we apply it to, we can funcionally remove the Blood Rage from most of the population. I might consider handing it over to Wrex if he agrees with my plan for remolding the Krogan. None of my playthroughs have Wreave, so that's not really an issue for me.

@Kaiser,

What aspect of the Rachni make them any more incompatable with galactic society than any other species?

Wrex's clan is working on unifying all of the Krogan clans though. If you give it to Urdnot, all the other clans are going to get the cure whether you like it or not.

Selectively choosing which Krogan to unsterlize would never work...how could you possibly do that? Interview every Krogan on Tuchanka? Their aggression is a part of their culture, a part of who they are. Even Wrex is aggressive, and he's considered a dangerous radical. The vast majority of Krogan are the kind of Krogan whom you deem unworthy to cure.

[SandTrout]

111987 wrote...

Wrex's clan is working on unifying all of the Krogan clans though. If you give it to Urdnot, all the other clans are going to get the cure whether you like it or not.

Selectively choosing which Krogan to unsterlize would never work...how could you possibly do that? Interview every Krogan on Tuchanka? Their aggression is a part of their culture, a part of who they are. Even Wrex is aggressive, and he's considered a dangerous radical. The vast majority of Krogan are the kind of Krogan whom you deem unworthy to cure.

You seem to think that we have to cure every krogan that we are going to cure at the same time, or that we have to distribute it 'evenly'. This is not so.

We simply take the Krogan as a client species, and if one is capable of demonstrating that they are able to control themselves (as Wrex is able to), then we can consider that Krogan for curring. I'm not talking about curring millions or even Thousands, here. I'm talking about curring dozens. Eventually, the cure will diffuse through the population, but because those that have traits that inhibit their mindless aggression will be the primary beneficiaries, we are promoting desirable traits within the population, similar to how domestication works.

This is not a project which will be completed in a single lifetime, it is a trans-generational plan, even for the Krogan.

[Nashiktal]

Wait, could we reclarify how the genophage works again?

Its a bit conflicting at times isn't it? I could have sworn it went after female krogan.

[111987]

SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wrex's clan is working on unifying all of the Krogan clans though. If you give it to Urdnot, all the other clans are going to get the cure whether you like it or not.

Selectively choosing which Krogan to unsterlize would never work...how could you possibly do that? Interview every Krogan on Tuchanka? Their aggression is a part of their culture, a part of who they are. Even Wrex is aggressive, and he's considered a dangerous radical. The vast majority of Krogan are the kind of Krogan whom you deem unworthy to cure.

You seem to think that we have to cure every krogan that we are going to cure at the same time, or that we have to distribute it 'evenly'. This is not so.

We simply take the Krogan as a client species, and if one is capable of demonstrating that they are able to control themselves (as Wrex is able to), then we can consider that Krogan for curring. I'm not talking about curring millions or even Thousands, here. I'm talking about curring dozens. Eventually, the cure will diffuse through the population, but because those that have traits that inhibit their mindless aggression will be the primary beneficiaries, we are promoting desirable traits within the population, similar to how domestication works.

This is not a project which will be completed in a single lifetime, it is a trans-generational plan, even for the Krogan.

Then you run into a whole host of other problems. Will the other, traditional Krogan not care that some of their own are being cured and not them? The cured Krogan could easily become targets of the non-cured Krogan. Also, how could you possibly screen billions of Krogan, and get a fair and accurate assessment of their character. Once they realize what we're looking for, they could just game the system.

[Nashiktal]

111987 wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

Wrex's clan is working on unifying all of the Krogan clans though. If you give it to Urdnot, all the other clans are going to get the cure whether you like it or not.

Selectively choosing which Krogan to unsterlize would never work...how could you possibly do that? Interview every Krogan on Tuchanka? Their aggression is a part of their culture, a part of who they are. Even Wrex is aggressive, and he's considered a dangerous radical. The vast majority of Krogan are the kind of Krogan whom you deem unworthy to cure.

You seem to think that we have to cure every krogan that we are going to cure at the same time, or that we have to distribute it 'evenly'. This is not so.

We simply take the Krogan as a client species, and if one is capable of demonstrating that they are able to control themselves (as Wrex is able to), then we can consider that Krogan for curring. I'm not talking about curring millions or even Thousands, here. I'm talking about curring dozens. Eventually, the cure will diffuse through the population, but because those that have traits that inhibit their mindless aggression will be the primary beneficiaries, we are promoting desirable traits within the population, similar to how domestication works.

This is not a project which will be completed in a single lifetime, it is a trans-generational plan, even for the Krogan.

Then you run into a whole host of other problems. Will the other, traditional Krogan not care that some of their own are being cured and not them? The cured Krogan could easily become targets of the non-cured Krogan. Also, how could you possibly screen billions of Krogan, and get a fair and accurate assessment of their character. Once they realize what we're looking for, they could just game the system.

I agree. Limited "reward" use of a genophage cure would cause more problems than any potential solution.

Not to mention such limited application of the cure would do nothing for the krogan as a species. So anyone reciving the "cure" would probably not agree to take it. After all, what point is there in having a son when said son will be alone?

[ddv.rsa]

SandTrout wrote...

You seem to think that we have to cure every krogan that we are going to cure at the same time, or that we have to distribute it 'evenly'. This is not so.

We simply take the Krogan as a client species, and if one is capable of demonstrating that they are able to control themselves (as Wrex is able to), then we can consider that Krogan for curring. I'm not talking about curring millions or even Thousands, here. I'm talking about curring dozens. Eventually, the cure will diffuse through the population, but because those that have traits that inhibit their mindless aggression will be the primary beneficiaries, we are promoting desirable traits within the population, similar to how domestication works.

This is not a project which will be completed in a single lifetime, it is a trans-generational plan, even for the Krogan.

That's a nice idea in theory, but once a cure is developed it is out of your hands. Who would decide who controls the cure? How would that authority explain playing God to the galactic media? How would they prevent the cure from reaching the black market?

If you're going to cure the genophage, you'd better do it ready to accept the worst case scenario: a full cure distributed to all Krogan.

[SandTrout]

111987 wrote...

Then you run into a whole host of other problems. Will the other, traditional Krogan not care that some of their own are being cured and not them? The cured Krogan could easily become targets of the non-cured Krogan. Also, how could you possibly screen billions of Krogan, and get a fair and accurate assessment of their character. Once they realize what we're looking for, they could just game the system.

Stop talking about screening billions of kronan. I'm not even considering that approach. I would treat the whole thing like knighting. If someone does something of note, then they are granted the honor, and certain Krogan Leaders, like Wrex, can volunteer names for us to consider. Get away from the idea that everything must be done like in a beurocrac, because I as specifically trying to avoid that.

As for the possibility of 'tradionalist' starting a war against those we have cured, I'm counting on the Alliance Military being available to put down any such rebellions, meaning that those aggresive enough to attack will be removed from the gene-pool that much faster. Also, the idea of a Krogan 'gaming the system' actually intrinsically implies that that Krogan is capable of suppressing their violent tendencies in order to gain what they want, which is exactly the trait that we are trying to cultivate within the Krogan. By forcing them to go through peaceful means, we can inherently rely on the bad apples weeding themselves out.

[111987]

SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

Then you run into a whole host of other problems. Will the other, traditional Krogan not care that some of their own are being cured and not them? The cured Krogan could easily become targets of the non-cured Krogan. Also, how could you possibly screen billions of Krogan, and get a fair and accurate assessment of their character. Once they realize what we're looking for, they could just game the system.

Stop talking about screening billions of kronan. I'm not even considering that approach. I would treat the whole thing like knighting. If someone does something of note, then they are granted the honor, and certain Krogan Leaders, like Wrex, can volunteer names for us to consider. Get away from the idea that everything must be done like in a beurocrac, because I as specifically trying to avoid that.

As for the possibility of 'tradionalist' starting a war against those we have cured, I'm counting on the Alliance Military being available to put down any such rebellions, meaning that those aggresive enough to attack will be removed from the gene-pool that much faster. Also, the idea of a Krogan 'gaming the system' actually intrinsically implies that that Krogan is capable of suppressing their violent tendencies in order to gain what they want, which is exactly the trait that we are trying to cultivate within the Krogan. By forcing them to go through peaceful means, we can inherently rely on the bad apples weeding themselves out.

So a Krogan has to prove themselves somehow? Who and how can that be judged? A good, peaceful Krogan could easily not do anything of particular note throughout its life, but it would still be worthy of being cured.

The aggresive Krogan is like, the entire Krogan population. We've seen TWO peaceful Krogan out of dozens or hundreds in game. Wrex, and Mr. Thax's assistant.

You can't weed out something that is a part of their nature. You'll be left with a handful of Krogan.

[SandTrout]

ddv.rsa wrote...

That's a nice idea in theory, but once a cure is developed it is out of your hands. Who would decide who controls the cure?

The Alliance controls the cure.

How would that authority explain playing God to the galactic media?

By playing on their fears of another set of Krogan rebellions.

How would they prevent the cure from reaching the black market?

That is a valid concern, but limited in scope. As long as the means to produce the cure are securly guarded, then any black market leaks are going to be limited to however much is stolen, which might be a few dozen doses, and probably 1 or 2. The Krogan that we don't want to administer the cure to will likely be too impatient to reverse-engineer the cure, while those that are pacient enough, are exactly the kind of Krogan we want to apply it to, anyways.

If you're going to cure the genophage, you'd better do it ready to accept the worst case scenario: a full cure distributed to all Krogan.

Fair enough, but we can respond, violently if necessary, to an uncontrol distribution of the cure before Krogan population levels rise to unmanageable levels.

[ddv.rsa]

We can discuss systems deciding how to distribute the cure all day. That doesn't change the fact that it could well be completely outside our control.

[ddv.rsa]

SandTrout wrote...Fair enough, but we can respond, violently if necessary, to an uncontrol distribution of the cure before Krogan population levels rise to unmanageable levels.

That would be a pointless and preventable waste of human life. Tell me, what is your justification for curing the genophage? Do you see it as beneficial in the war against the Reapers, or do you just want to correct something you see as morally wrong?

[SandTrout]

111987 wrote...

So a Krogan has to prove themselves somehow? Who and how can that be judged? A good, peaceful Krogan could easily not do anything of particular note throughout its life, but it would still be worthy of being cured.

True, but I'm not looking to cure every worthy krogan. We only need a few to start the process. Also, with Wrex as an example, we can look for those Krogan which succeed through more thoughtful means, or those who succeed as businessmen.

The aggresive Krogan is like, the entire Krogan population. We've seen TWO peaceful Krogan out of dozens or hundreds in game. Wrex, and Mr. Thax's assistant.

Also, the Mechanic. But that's fine. We'll cure those 2 or 3. We don't need to do it all at once, or even publicly.

You can't weed out something that is a part of their nature. You'll be left with a handful of Krogan.

You're entirely missing the point. I'm not taking a negative course of eradicating every krogan that is unable to suppress their aggression. I am taking the possitive course of rewarding those that are capable of controlling themselves and allowing them to repopulate at a much greater rate than their more aggressive counterparts.

There is no way that this will result in being left with only a 'handfull' of Krogan unless their is an uncontrolled population boom, in which case we'll probably just need to erradicate them entirely.

[SandTrout]

ddv.rsa wrote...

That would be a pointless and preventable waste of human life. Tell me, what is your justification for curing the genophage? Do you see it as beneficial in the war against the Reapers, or do you just want to correct something you see as morally wrong?

I see the Genophage cure as a means to rally the Krogan under my banner durring the Galactic War, and then using it to mold them into an effective client-species of an ascended Alliance that replaces the Council. I also would want to take in the Quarians, Vorcha, Volus, and Elcor as client species in a similar manner.

I'd be open to admiting the Turians and Geth, but I don't have any particularly good leverage to use on those two.

[Aeowyn]

Grim Intent wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

In the same breath he says you need to discover why that is. And considering it happens regardless of the CB's status, that does not mean giving them the base is the incorrect choice. ~_^

Says you. Again, I know I made the right choice and I can almost guarantee you'll find that when you play ME3 you'll see why. The Illusive Man is a horrible person and I wouldn't be surprised if the CB decision heavily influences events in ME3.Speculation of course in case I had to clarify but only time will tell...

Stop passing off opinions as facts please. We don't know anything about the CB decision yet, we don't even know WHY TIM has sided with the Reapers. 

Also, did you even play Arrival? Kenson said that destroying the Alpha relay could slow the Reapers down by months or even years. Calling someone stupid because they didn't metagame is....well, quite silly. 

[SandTrout]

Even if something turns out to be a mistake, the moral weight of the decision does not change. The moral weight of a decision can only be determined by that was known by the decision maker at the time.

[111987]

SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

So a Krogan has to prove themselves somehow? Who and how can that be judged? A good, peaceful Krogan could easily not do anything of particular note throughout its life, but it would still be worthy of being cured.

True, but I'm not looking to cure every worthy krogan. We only need a few to start the process. Also, with Wrex as an example, we can look for those Krogan which succeed through more thoughtful means, or those who succeed as businessmen.

The aggresive Krogan is like, the entire Krogan population. We've seen TWO peaceful Krogan out of dozens or hundreds in game. Wrex, and Mr. Thax's assistant.

Also, the Mechanic. But that's fine. We'll cure those 2 or 3. We don't need to do it all at once, or even publicly.

You can't weed out something that is a part of their nature. You'll be left with a handful of Krogan.

You're entirely missing the point. I'm not taking a negative course of eradicating every krogan that is unable to suppress their aggression. I am taking the possitive course of rewarding those that are capable of controlling themselves and allowing them to repopulate at a much greater rate than their more aggressive counterparts.

There is no way that this will result in being left with only a 'handfull' of Krogan unless their is an uncontrolled population boom, in which case we'll probably just need to erradicate them entirely.

Those two or three still need a fertile female to reproduce though. It doens't matter if they're cured if the one bearing their children isn't.

You won't have enough fertile Krogan to sustain a population. Plus, it's only a matter of time before the cure is leaked, or stolen, or replicated by the Krogan.

Oh and on an unrelated note, what is this nonsense about where the Alliance has made every other race a client species? That would absolutely NEVER work....it'd be like if the U.S or China tried to rule the entire world. Doesn't matter how powerful they are, it would just never work.

[ddv.rsa]

SandTrout wrote...
I see the Genophage cure as a means to rally the Krogan under my banner durring the Galactic War, and then using it to mold them into an effective client-species of an ascended Alliance that replaces the Council. I also would want to take in the Quarians, Vorcha, Volus, and Elcor as client species in a similar manner.

I'd be open to admiting the Turians and Geth, but I don't have any particularly good leverage to use on those two.

But what could the Krogan really contribute to the war effort? Infantry? All races have infantry, most better trained, equiped and more numerous than the Krogan. Not to mention the fact that curing the genophage could antagonise the Salarians and Turians- two genuinely useful allies.

And if a full genophage cure gets out, you'd be lucky to have the Alliance as a client race of the Krogan. The only way to counter them would be the Rachni, and god help the galaxy if the two ever joined forces.

[SandTrout]

111987 wrote...

Those two or three still need a fertile female to reproduce though. It doens't matter if they're cured if the one bearing their children isn't.

I'm sure there is a reasonable Krogan female out there somewhere, such as the Urdnot Female Clan leader, who is helping Wrex along.

You won't have enough fertile Krogan to sustain a population.

Are you tolling me? I'm not isolating the cured krogan from the general population, and the already are enough firtile(ish) female krogan to sustain the population, if they would just stop killing each other off.

Plus, it's only a matter of time before the cure is leaked, or stolen, or replicated by the Krogan.

The Krogan that are capable of replicating the cure are not a problem, they are part of the solution.

Oh and on an unrelated note, what is this nonsense about where the Alliance has made every other race a client species? That would absolutely NEVER work....it'd be like if the U.S or China tried to rule the entire world. Doesn't matter how powerful they are, it would just never work.

Really? Because the US already holds a great amount of power over several nations including Canada, England, Iraq, Taiwan, Japan, Isreal, pretty much every NATO nation, and I'm sure a few others that I just can't think of right now. Also, the ME galaxy is already under a similar system execpt with the incompotent Council instead of the Alliance.

[SandTrout]

ddv.rsa wrote...

But what could the Krogan really contribute to the war effort? Infantry? All races have infantry, most better trained, equiped and more numerous than the Krogan. Not to mention the fact that curing the genophage could antagonise the Salarians and Turians- two genuinely useful allies.

Actually, the Krogan infantry is probably more effective, man-for-man, and at least as well equiped as any other nation's. Remember that every single Krogan is probably a battle-hardened veteran of the varrious conflicts between the clans, and they are still allowed to develop ground-vehicles and infantry weapons, it is only a navy that they have been denied.

And if a full genophage cure gets out, you'd be lucky to have the Alliance as a client race of the Krogan. The only way to counter them would be the Rachni, and god help the galaxy if the two ever joined forces.

This is a valid concern, but a Krogan population explosion would be recognized and counteracted more more quickly than it was before the Krogan Rebellions. The biggest problem with the Krogan Rebellions was that the Council allowed the Krogan population to expand, unchecked, for several centuries. Since we have the benefit of knowing what will happen if we allow that kind of growth again, we can prempt it so that the Krogan only gain mabe a couple of decades of population growth before we bring down the hammer.

Also, the Turians established a stalemate with the Krogan, and judgeing by the outcome of the FCW, humans are more effective warfighters than the turians (though less disciplined), meaning that we likely would be able to defeat the Krogan, especially with the backing of other allies, such as the Vorcha and Elcor, and the advantage of prempting the numbers that the Turians had to face during the Rebellions.

[ddv.rsa]

SandTrout wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

But what could the Krogan really contribute to the war effort? Infantry? All races have infantry, most better trained, equiped and more numerous than the Krogan. Not to mention the fact that curing the genophage could antagonise the Salarians and Turians- two genuinely useful allies.

Actually, the Krogan infantry is probably more effective, man-for-man, and at least as well equiped as any other nation's. Remember that every single Krogan is probably a battle-hardened veteran of the varrious conflicts between the clans, and they are still allowed to develop ground-vehicles and infantry weapons, it is only a navy that they have been denied.

Only a navy? That's all that really counts against the Reapers. But for the sake of the argument let's say they are most effective infantry. Are infantry really in such short supply as to warrant opening a can of worms like the genophage cure?

I'm willing to bet that even without curing the genophage, you could still leverage Grunt and Wrex to get some Krogan warriors.