3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Grim Intent]

man, this topic is getting pretty heated. let's change the subject and keep the flame wars kindled!
what did you guys think about the rachni queen decision? did you spare or destroy the rachni queen?
personally, i spared her and in me2 she spoke through an asari on illium and said she would help when the time comes. good decision on my part? if she lives up to her word i think so. oh, and for anyone that thought the rachni were dangerous i believe the ones that fought in the war were indoctrinated.. i believe it is alluded to at some point in either me1 or me2 but i can't quite remember..

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nothing with you involved is fun...

Quit trolling already. You are not interesting. You are not contributing anything. You're just being a boring, irritating douche.

This is too funny. 

[Arkitekt]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Whereas those who support Cerberus have a solid reputation for respectful debate with those they disagree with?

I'll challenge you to find  where Dave has made similar unprovoked personal attacks like SWM does regularly.

Smudboy's thread is filled with his trollish regurgitation. Still stinking.

[Arkitekt]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Considering your tendency to insult anybody who supports Cerberus due to your petty vendetta, I assume he (and anybody else who supports Cerberus) knows how it feels to be on the "receiving end" of your repetitive posts.

My petty vendetta? The whole galaxy will be a better place with Cerberus gone. No more idiots who jeopardizes the safety of communications networks or preforms sadistic experiments because they think it's somehow necessary to inject a soldier with thresher acid, even if they can get even better results if they started behaving like a modern scientist instead of someone who's stuck in the 40's with no way of analyzing the particles of the acids instead.

Not to mention that they're trying to play God by detonating eezo refineries to try and get some human biotics by killing dozens of ordinary humans. Just because they think they should challenge every race in every field with their sloppy guesswork.

I show no respect for Cerberus supporters, because they deserve none.

Don't misunderstand a game for real life. Everyone's entitled to a moral decision in this case. Bioware presented Cerberus with sufficient moral ambiguity for the choice not to be blatantly obvious. If you show no respect for someone who feels slightly different than you, aren't you being just intolerant?

I understand Lord's motives to keep the CB, and I accept them. I don't agree but that's a quite different tone. For me it's sufficiently good evidence that Bioware did a good job to ensure people would choose their path differently.

[Arkitekt]

Grim Intent wrote...

man, this topic is getting pretty heated. let's change the subject and keep the flame wars kindled!
what did you guys think about the rachni queen decision? did you spare or destroy the rachni queen?
personally, i spared her and in me2 she spoke through an asari on illium and said she would help when the time comes. good decision on my part? if she lives up to her word i think so. oh, and for anyone that thought the rachni were dangerous i believe the ones that fought in the war were indoctrinated.. i believe it is alluded to at some point in either me1 or me2 but i can't quite remember..

Indoctinated Rachni are to be found in ME3. So the only info missing is if whether there are some Rachni that escaped it and are willing to help. Surely it would be more interesting.

[Grim Intent]

i hope so because i remember the brood warriors in me1 being pretty tough to take down. having rachni on our side would be a great help and i hear that their ships are quite advanced.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I could care less what the redicolous label for the decision is. Real-life has no such labels, and I do not let them control me. Morals? Moral compass? Dont' make me laugh....

Keeping the base is the most logical decision. The smartest decision one can make at that point. It's made for the benefit of the whole galaxy.
Regardless of how it plays out, that is one thing that is without doubt.

Now, when the galaxy is burning around you, I'm sure you can take comfort in knowing you fed your own broken ego.

Keeping the base would be a smart decision if you could keep it under control or maybe Council or be it only Alliance control. But handing it to Cerberus, a supposed illegal/terrorist organisation? Well shady at least. I would say that this is quite the leap of faith. Even if they are doing the right thing in ME2, and even if Shep owes them his/her life. And even if Liara gave Shep's body to them (something I still can't understand).

It makes no real difference. You think the Alliance or council are better? Their scientists havn't been shown to be any more competent in that regard.
Leap of faith? No, not really. Ceberus up untill that point fought the reapers and worked in the interested of humantiy wihout exception. Over 20 years of consistent behavior. Assuming they'd betray everyone is a leap of faith in this case. Why would they?

And assuming they do betray you - then the technology would still be there, where you could reach it. Cerberus would research it, document it. And you could take it from them. Far easier and better than trying to take it from the reapers, no?

Either way, by saving the base, you ensure the data/technology is still out there.

Yes I think the Council and Alliance are better. Maybe not technologically, but they have the morale higher ground. For example because they are actually elected from the people to do what they do. While Cerberus is going mostly unchecked. I didn't find TIM very trustworthy. He is hiding info from Shep all the time and for the most part playing him along. If it had been my personal choice, I'd have taken the Normandy from Cerberus, waved goodbye and rejoined the Alliance fleet right after Omega (as in after picking up Garrus). I think my Shep would have found a way to stop the Collectors without Cerberus. After all Shep didn't need Cerberus in ME1 either. I personally feel dirty for having been forced to work with Cerberus. I understand opinions on this can be different, but oh well, this is my point of view.

However, I could not recall one reason why to trust Cerberus. They never do anything for you without asking something in return, and the whole deal with the Collectors, well it's self-purpose. TIM doesn't do it to do anyone a favor and also not to save some colonists. It just happens to be so that executing his plan saves some colonists so he can act like he cares. But I am pretty sure if his plan would ask for sacrificing colonists, he wouldn't give a second thought on them and just do it. He wants the Reaper Base from start, that's what I think. The whole money he invests in Shepard and the new Normandy is not because he is such a loving and caring person. It's simply a cheap price for the Collector Base. And that's why he doesn't get it ... from me, anyway.

It is not really about them being pro-human or about their experiments. I also think that small sacrifices for the greater good are in order, even necessary at times. What really irks me about Cerberus and TIM is that you (aka Shep) are a puppet with strings attached for the illusive man and have to dance for him. So I cross him whenever I get the chance, even before the Collector Base. So logically, there is no way he gets it from me.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:23 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

AlexXIV wrote...

Yes I think the Council and Alliance are better. Maybe not technologically, but they have the morale higher ground.

Say what now? I don't recall Cerberus having done something at least half as horrible as the Genophage.

For example because they are actually elected from the people to do what they do. While Cerberus is going mostly unchecked. I didn't find TIM very trustworthy. He is hiding info from Shep all the time and for the most part playing him along.

You can't deny that it gets results.

If it had been my personal choice, I'd have taken the Normandy from Cerberus, waved goodbye and rejoined the Alliance fleet right after Omega (as in after picking up Garrus). I think my Shep would have found a way to stop the Collectors without Cerberus. After all Shep didn't need Cerberus in ME1 either. I personally feel dirty for having been forced to work with Cerberus. I understand opinions on this can be different, but oh well, this is my point of view.

Well, good for you.

However, I could not recall one reason why to trust Cerberus. They never do anything for you without asking something in return, and the whole deal with the Collectors, well it's self-purpose. TIM doesn't do it to do anyone a favor and also not to save some colonists. It just happens to be so that executing his plan saves some colonists so he can act like he cares. But I am pretty sure if his plan would ask for sacrificing colonists, he wouldn't give a second thought on them and just do it. He wants the Reaper Base from start, that's what I think. The whole money he invests in Shepard and the new Normandy is not because he is such a loving and caring person. It's simply a cheap price for the Collector Base. And that's why he doesn't get it ... from me, anyway.

As if ther Council isn't mostly just a self-serving alliance; the only reason it's there is because all three races benefit from being united over and against the rest of the galaxy. 

It is not really about them being pro-human or about their experiments. I also think that small sacrifices for the greater good are in order, even necessary at times. What really irks me about Cerberus and TIM is that you (aka Shep) are a puppet with strings attached for the illusive man and have to dance for him. So I cross him whenever I get the chance, even before the Collector Base. So logically, there is no way he gets it from me.

You weren't made a Spectre because of the Council's goodwill either, they simply used you to cover up their latest embarrassing mistake. Nothing more, nothing less.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:38 .

[AlexXIV]

I didn't say that the Council/Alliance are perfect. Just better than Cerberus. Yes, Cerberus gets results. So do the Reapers. At least they did for the last couple million years. I mean if I wanted to join the most competent side, I'd pick the Reapers. Nothing Cerberus accomplished can even remotely compare to the Reapers and without Shepard, Cerberus wouldn't even have had succeeded with the Collectors, etc. They get results because of Shepard. Well with the exception of resurrecting Shepard maybe. That's one point I have to give them. But it is silly in itself for many reasons imo.

I don't like the turian councilor more than anyone, but at least I can give him benefit of doubt on his intentions. Meaning, silly as he is, he is probably having the good of the whole galaxy on his mind. And I didn't like being puppet for the Council much either. But as I said at least they are elected. And not some privately funded organisation in which the best way to climb to the top is probably to be the most ruthless. I mean that's why Cerberus is getting results. There is nothing they wouldn't do to further their goals. Of which, I am convinced, defeating the Reapers, isn't their top priority.

[TobyHasEyes]

 Yah boo to Rachni
 Yah boo to Cerberus
 Yah boo to Council
 Yah boo to Genophage

 Every group but x (the one you support) is evil and corrupt
 Those who disagree are either terrorist / genetically weak / Nazee / bestial

 Yawn to all the morality threads on here. I actually really like good debate, but debate is not simply bashing on diatribe against another to see which outlasts the other

[Barquiel]

wiggles89 wrote...

A racist political body that used an entire race as cannon fodder, committed genocide on said race, and employs a secret police force has the moral high ground over Cerberus?

Well, it's a good thing that the council did none of these things.

[AlexXIV]

wiggles89 wrote...

Yes I think the Council and Alliance are better. Maybe not technologically, but they have the morale higher ground.

A racist political body that used an entire race as cannon fodder, committed genocide on said race, and employs a secret police force has the moral high ground over Cerberus?

Over Cerberus is the key word, yes. Mordin explains what he did and why. The Rachni were about to do the Reaper's job for them. And they didn't sterilize the Krogans afterwards, they kept their birth rate in check. Which is a good thing considering they would have done the same thing as the Rachni. A lot of Pro-Cerberus people actually justify their means, say that sacrifice is necessary, etc., but still hold it against the Council. So that just sounds like propaganda. Because basically they hold things against the Council, but support the same things if Cerberus did it. That's kind of telling me there are other reasons behind their opinions.

[AlexXIV]

wiggles89 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

A racist political body that used an entire race as cannon fodder, committed genocide on said race, and employs a secret police force has the moral high ground over Cerberus?

Well, it's a good thing that the council did none of these things.

First, the Council judges individuals on the basis of race, which is what racist political bodies do. Secondly, it used the krogan as cannon fodder against the rachni. Thirdly, since preventing births in order to completely or partially destroy a race is genocide, the Genophage qualifies as genocide. Fourthly, the Spectres is unquestionably a secret police force.

They don't do anything different from what any government would do in their place. Shepard kills 300000 Batarians ... genocide? Yes the Council used the Krogans. What were their options? Do you know one? The difference between the good and the bad is not when there is no choice. It is when there is a choice and you pick the one choice that is the more morale one or the other, more efficient but amorale.

[Barquiel]

wiggles89 wrote...
First, the Council judges individuals on the basis of race, which is what racist political bodies do.

When exactly did this happen?

wiggles89 wrote...
Secondly, it used the krogan as cannon fodder against the rachni.

After 100 years of war, the krogan were needed in the Rachni Wars as reinforcements...not as cannon fodder.

wiggles89 wrote...
Thirdly, since preventing births in order to completely or partially destroy a race is genocide, the Genophage qualifies as genocide.

The Genophage doesn't kill the krogan, their culture kills them. Ask Wrex.

wiggles89 wrote...
Fourthly, the Spectres is unquestionably a secret police force.

Spectres are everything but secret.

[GodWood]

AlexXIV wrote...
A lot of Pro-Cerberus people actually justify their means, say that sacrifice is necessary, etc., but still hold it against the Council. So that just sounds like propaganda. Because basically they hold things against the Council, but support the same things if Cerberus did it. That's kind of telling me there are other reasons behind their opinions.

I as a renegade often point out the 'atrocities' of the Council to paragons, however I do wholeheartedly support some of the past actions of the Council (Rachni + genophage).
The only reason I at least present these things in a negative light is to show that the organization they're defending is just as 'black' as the organization they're condemning.

However I cannot support their racist governing policies and I assume paragons only do out of sense of maintaining the status quo OR (as commonly observed lately) because of their asari supremism.

Barquiel wrote...
Spectres are everything but secret.

As are secret police.
Seriously if you're going to say 'the Council doesn't have secret police' at least know what secret police are.

Modifié par GodWood, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:22 .

[111987]

SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

Those two or three still need a fertile female to reproduce though. It doens't matter if they're cured if the one bearing their children isn't.

I'm sure there is a reasonable Krogan female out there somewhere, such as the Urdnot Female Clan leader, who is helping Wrex along.

You won't have enough fertile Krogan to sustain a population.

Are you tolling me? I'm not isolating the cured krogan from the general population, and the already are enough firtile(ish) female krogan to sustain the population, if they would just stop killing each other off.

Plus, it's only a matter of time before the cure is leaked, or stolen, or replicated by the Krogan.

The Krogan that are capable of replicating the cure are not a problem, they are part of the solution.

Oh and on an unrelated note, what is this nonsense about where the Alliance has made every other race a client species? That would absolutely NEVER work....it'd be like if the U.S or China tried to rule the entire world. Doesn't matter how powerful they are, it would just never work.

Really? Because the US already holds a great amount of power over several nations including Canada, England, Iraq, Taiwan, Japan, Isreal, pretty much every NATO nation, and I'm sure a few others that I just can't think of right now. Also, the ME galaxy is already under a similar system execpt with the incompotent Council instead of the Alliance.

If you don't seperate the cured Krogan from the general population, they will become instant targets.

You seem to think that the Alliance will have an unprecedented amount of control over this cure and it's distribution, considering that the Salarians will be the ones to make it. It might not even be Shepard or the Alliance's decision to begin with. And in your galaxy where the Alliance is controlling the rest of the galaxy, I could easily see the Salarian STG releasing the cure as a tactic against their human oppressors.

Also, the Krogan replicating the cure are not necesarrily part of the solution. Just listen to the Clanspeaker from Clan Weryloc.

Finally, you are greatly overestimating the influence of the U.S in the world. Alliances with =/= power over the country. If the U.S tried to control those countries, the U.S would fall to pieces. It's just logistics; a single nation cannot effectively govern that much territory, with that many people, especially when those people do not support you. We've already seen the beginnings of this, with the Human-Turian arms race if you kill the Council. And this is with humanity playing it nice right now. If you try to exert too much control, things will not end well for you. There are less than 15 billion humans in the Mass Effect galaxy. There are trillions or organics in total. You simply can't control them all.

Modifié par 111987, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:28 .

[AlexXIV]

GodWood wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

Yes I think the Council and Alliance are better. Maybe not technologically, but they have the morale higher ground.

A racist political body that used an entire race as cannon fodder, committed genocide on said race, and employs a secret police force has the moral high ground over Cerberus?

Over Cerberus is the key word, yes. Mordin explains what he did and why. The Rachni were about to do the Reaper's job for them. And they didn't sterilize the Krogans afterwards, they kept their birth rate in check. Which is a good thing considering they would have done the same thing as the Rachni. A lot of Pro-Cerberus people actually justify their means, say that sacrifice is necessary, etc., but still hold it against the Council. So that just sounds like propaganda. Because basically they hold things against the Council, but support the same things if Cerberus did it. That's kind of telling me there are other reasons behind their opinions.

I as a renegade often point out the 'atrocities' of the Council to paragons, however I do wholeheartedly support some of the past actions of the Council (Rachni + genophage).
The only reason I at least present these things in a negative light is to show that the organization they're defending is just as 'black' as the organization they're condemning.

However I cannot support their racist governing policies and I assume paragons only do out of sense of maintaining the status quo OR (as commonly observed lately) because of their asari supremism.

Well the Council consists of 4 races. Asari, turians, salarians and humans. They don't allow the other races in because they don't deem them fit for the job. It is not much different than condemning undemocratic countries in the real world. If you don't share common goals or values, then you can't work together. Nobody keeps the other races from making their own council, but obviously they don't fare too bad under Council jurisdiction.

I never did read anywhere on the Citadel or anywhere else a sign that said 'no volus allowed' or something like that. The only ones they maybe dislike are Quarians because they created the Geth. And the cop who actually had prejudice against the Quarian is a human. I don't see that any of the council races is more racist than humans. Asari actually mate different races and if they treat people badly then those Asari who mate other Asari. Salarians are also quite open minded if you asked me. The only aliens who actually come even close to 'human' racism are the turians. And they are racists because they think like humans, but are actually aliens? How dare they.

Sorry but people who play the racist card should at least ... you know ... not be racists themselves. Alien racism is not worse than human racism. Unless you only want to regard from a subjective human point of view.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:35 .

[ddv.rsa]

wiggles89 wrote...

 Thirdly, since preventing births in order to completely or partially destroy a race is genocide, the Genophage qualifies as genocide.

Perhaps, but the genophage might also turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to the Krogan.
It makes going to war unfeasible, which is actually a major blessing. This gives the Krogan a chance to step back and rethink their culture. Leaders like Wrex have a chance to be heard. 

People say the genophage is killing the Krogan- that simply isn't true. Krogan can live for a thousand years, have a rapid breeding cycle, and give birth to entire clutches at a time. 1/1000 young surviving birth is hardly a death sentence. Their population could still be growing steadily, if not for their ignorant and bloodthirsty culture.

Instead of krogan and their sympathisers reviling the genophage they should be grateful for it. Without it they would have been exterminated like the Rachni. Considering they started the war it was a mercy they didn't even deserve. If the Krogan ****** away their second chance and drive themselves to extinction, they have only themselves to blame.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Barquiel]

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
Spectres are everything but secret.

As are secret police.
Seriously if you're going to say 'the Council doesn't have secret police' at least know what secret police are.

Spectres are known. Basically everyone knows you're spectre. You can't operate in secrecy -> spectres are no secret police. Or do you think MFS agents were public figures?

[GodWood]

AlexXIV wrote...
Well the Council consists of 4 races. Asari, turians, salarians and humans. They don't allow the other races in because they don't deem them fit for the job.

..............!

I never did read anywhere on the Citadel or anywhere else a sign that said 'no volus allowed' or something like that. The only ones they maybe dislike are Quarians because they created the Geth. And the cop who actually had prejudice against the Quarian is a human. I don't see that any of the council races is more racist than humans. Asari actually mate different races and if they treat people badly then those Asari who mate other Asari. Salarians are also quite open minded if you asked me. The only aliens who actually come even close to 'human' racism are the turians. And they are racists because they think like humans, but are actually aliens? How dare they.

I'll admit this is half-arsed of me (I am busy) but here's a thread that basically summarises my issues with the Council. (page 2, Dean's posts)

Sorry but people who play the racist card should at least ... you know ... not be racists themselves. Alien racism is not worse than human racism. Unless you only want to regard from a subjective human point of view.

I'm racist?

[sponge56]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

My petty vendetta?

Yes, your petty vendetta. The petty vendetta which makes you incapable of realizing everything you just wrote has been answered countless times through multiple threads which you took part in, you just refuse to accept the answer and when your logic is flawed (and you get called out on it) you resort to insults and say something along the lines of "I don't care what some armchair idiots on the internet think".

Replace "armchair idiots" with "twerp" for variety, those tend to be your favorites.

I show no respect for Cerberus supporters, because they deserve none.

You show no respect to anybody who disagrees with you, that's why they "deserve" none.

Take some chill pills everyone. Nom nom nom