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Den of Delusions - The morality discussion topic


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#3551
AlexXIV

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wiggles89 wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

 Thirdly, since preventing births in order to completely or partially destroy a race is genocide, the Genophage qualifies as genocide.


Perhaps, but the genophage might also turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to the Krogan.
It makes going to war unfeasible, which is actually a major blessing. This gives
the Krogan a chance to step back and rethink their culture. Leaders like Wrex have a chance to be heard.

Oh no, I agree that the Genophage was probably for the best. However, as Godwood argued, it's useful to mention the Genohpage in response to anti-Cerberus Council supporters.

It's probably good to mention to those who are too idealistic. But I for one don't idealize the Council, as I don't idealize democracy as such. They are flawed concepts. But they are better than the alternative. Which is a dictatorship. Or anarchy.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:49 .


#3552
GodWood

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Barquiel wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
Spectres are everything but secret.

As are secret police.
Seriously if you're going to say 'the Council doesn't have secret police' at least know what secret police are

Spectres are known. Basically everyone knows you're spectre. You can't operate in secrecy -> spectres are no secret police.

People knew of the Gestapo.
People knew if you were in the Gestapo (they had their own uniform)
∴The Gestapo weren't secret police?

#3553
AlexXIV

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GodWood wrote...

I'm racist?

I don't know, and I didn't say that. I worded it the way I did on purpose.

My point is, if you judge others, use the same measure for yourself. It's easy to see other people's faults, harder to see your own, naturally considering the location of your eyes. I think calling a Council that consists of 4 different races racist is a bit silly. They are 4 different races. If the Council was racist it would only consist of one race. So obviously race alone is not their reason for not allowing other races in. Also they had resentments against humans in the Council as well, but they could be convinced. I think Any race has a chance to be part of the Council 'when they are ready'. I admit that the fact that the council decides when they are ready is a bit ... unfortunate ... but who else is supposed to decide it? The Reapers? No, I don't think so.

#3554
AlexXIV

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GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
Spectres are everything but secret.

As are secret police.
Seriously if you're going to say 'the Council doesn't have secret police' at least know what secret police are

Spectres are known. Basically everyone knows you're spectre. You can't operate in secrecy -> spectres are no secret police.

People knew of the Gestapo.
People knew if you were in the Gestapo (they had their own uniform)
∴The Gestapo weren't secret police?

Yes but name one nation that doesn't have a secret police. You could as well name the FBI or CIA or whatever they are called in other nations.

#3555
Barquiel

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GodWood wrote...

People knew if you were in the Gestapo (they had their own uniform)


That's news to me. I thought they wore SS uniforms.

Modifié par Barquiel, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:19 .


#3556
AlexXIV

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Barquiel wrote...

GodWood wrote...

People knew if you were in the Gestapo (they had their own uniform)


That's news to me. I thought they wore SS uniforms.

No the SS was semi-military, while the Gestapo worked civil only. So it depends certain suits, like formal wear may not look too much different. I think Gestapo is known for long black leather coats.

#3557
SkittlesKat96

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wiggles89 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

A racist political body that used an entire race as cannon fodder, committed genocide on said race, and employs a secret police force has the moral high ground over Cerberus?


Well, it's a good thing that the council did none of these things.

First, the Council judges individuals on the basis of race, which is what racist political bodies do. Secondly, it used the krogan as cannon fodder against the rachni. Thirdly, since preventing births in order to completely or partially destroy a race is genocide, the Genophage qualifies as genocide. Fourthly, the Spectres is unquestionably a secret police force.


1. Indeed.

2. Iirc the Krogan weren't really forced to fight the Rachni and they actually enjoyed fighting the Rachni but I might be wrong (I do know though that they became saviours of the galaxy afterwards and were very well rewarded.) So I'm not sure if that point is valid.

3. Fair enough (it doesn't seem like the Council/Citadel government has learnt its lesson either from it.)

4. This is debatable but yes I think the Spectres can be considered as 'Secret police' because:

1. They serve the interests of a somewhat authoritarian government.
2. They act beyond the law and they have the traits of many previous real life secret police groups.
3. Spectres keep their operations completely secret and for the most part they are reasonably secretive. Many secret police that exist now (FBI, CIA etc.) are only partially secret along with many disbanded secret police groups in the past.

So yeah, Spectres are secret police

#3558
Kaiser Shepard

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Now how did this get to SS and Gestapo uniforms?

#3559
Barquiel

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Now how did this get to SS and Gestapo uniforms?


We discussed if spectres are a secret police ^_^

#3560
Seboist

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Spectres are absolutely a secret police force. There's a CDN story of Tela Vasir wiping out the members of a "wikileaks" like organization.

#3561
Destroy Raiden_

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Spectors are the U.S version of a czar they only answer to, are elected by, and are approved by the president to do work he can't get done via legal channels do to sensitivity, political or social disapproval except replace president with the council and czars with spectors. Specotrs do what they want so long as the council feels its advances or doesn't clash with their agenda.

#3562
SandTrout

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111987 wrote...

If you don't seperate the cured Krogan from the general population, they will become instant targets.

I disagree with that assessment, but the worst case scenario here is that the Krogan don't get cured, which is a zero, not a negative. In any case, these cured Krogan are more likely to be a vital resource that the other clans wish to recruit, not destroy.

You seem to think that the Alliance will have an unprecedented amount of control over this cure and it's distribution, considering that the Salarians will be the ones to make it. It might not even be Shepard or the Alliance's decision to begin with. And in your galaxy where the Alliance is controlling the rest of the galaxy, I could easily see the Salarian STG releasing the cure as a tactic against their human oppressors.

If we don't control the cure, then we should destroy it, but so far as we know, Shepard and Mordin are the only two with significant access to the data that might result in the cure, and my guess would be that Mordin would approve, or be dead and gone (he's pushing 50) by the time we start this initiative. Due to their possible access to the Genophage, we might consider allying with the Salarians, so that we keep our project under control. It is more important that the Krogan don't have the cure than the specifics of who does. No one wan't the Krogan to become too powerful.

Also, the Krogan replicating the cure are not necesarrily part of the solution. Just listen to the Clanspeaker from Clan Weryloc.

Weryloc was not capable of manufacturing a cure, they were only smart enough to get someone who could.

Finally, you are greatly overestimating the influence of the U.S in the world. Alliances with =/= power over the country. If the U.S tried to control those countries, the U.S would fall to pieces. It's just logistics; a single nation cannot effectively govern that much territory, with that many people, especially when those people do not support you. We've already seen the beginnings of this, with the Human-Turian arms race if you kill the Council. And this is with humanity playing it nice right now. If you try to exert too much control, things will not end well for you. There are less than 15 billion humans in the Mass Effect galaxy. There are trillions or organics in total. You simply can't control them all.

Control and power are not always exercised though force. The US has a huge amount of economic and military power to leverage other nations diplomatically.

Also, we don't necessarily need to take everyone under our wing at once, in any case. First, we take in the weak and crippled species; we take the ones who want our protection, but don't want to put up with the Council's BS (Quarians, Krogan, Vorcha). Just because they are client species does not mean that the arangement is not mutally beneficial. We aid the Quarians with resettling a world in exchange for their technical and naval skills. We serve as better masters for the Vorcha in exchange for their service in reconstruction and other hazardous jobs. We help the Krogan work their way past the genophage in exchange for their warriors.

#3563
111987

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SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

If you don't seperate the cured Krogan from the general population, they will become instant targets.

I disagree with that assessment, but the worst case scenario here is that the Krogan don't get cured, which is a zero, not a negative. In any case, these cured Krogan are more likely to be a vital resource that the other clans wish to recruit, not destroy.

You seem to think that the Alliance will have an unprecedented amount of control over this cure and it's distribution, considering that the Salarians will be the ones to make it. It might not even be Shepard or the Alliance's decision to begin with. And in your galaxy where the Alliance is controlling the rest of the galaxy, I could easily see the Salarian STG releasing the cure as a tactic against their human oppressors.

If we don't control the cure, then we should destroy it, but so far as we know, Shepard and Mordin are the only two with significant access to the data that might result in the cure, and my guess would be that Mordin would approve, or be dead and gone (he's pushing 50) by the time we start this initiative. Due to their possible access to the Genophage, we might consider allying with the Salarians, so that we keep our project under control. It is more important that the Krogan don't have the cure than the specifics of who does. No one wan't the Krogan to become too powerful.

Also, the Krogan replicating the cure are not necesarrily part of the solution. Just listen to the Clanspeaker from Clan Weryloc.

Weryloc was not capable of manufacturing a cure, they were only smart enough to get someone who could.

Finally, you are greatly overestimating the influence of the U.S in the world. Alliances with =/= power over the country. If the U.S tried to control those countries, the U.S would fall to pieces. It's just logistics; a single nation cannot effectively govern that much territory, with that many people, especially when those people do not support you. We've already seen the beginnings of this, with the Human-Turian arms race if you kill the Council. And this is with humanity playing it nice right now. If you try to exert too much control, things will not end well for you. There are less than 15 billion humans in the Mass Effect galaxy. There are trillions or organics in total. You simply can't control them all.

Control and power are not always exercised though force. The US has a huge amount of economic and military power to leverage other nations diplomatically.

Also, we don't necessarily need to take everyone under our wing at once, in any case. First, we take in the weak and crippled species; we take the ones who want our protection, but don't want to put up with the Council's BS (Quarians, Krogan, Vorcha). Just because they are client species does not mean that the arangement is not mutally beneficial. We aid the Quarians with resettling a world in exchange for their technical and naval skills. We serve as better masters for the Vorcha in exchange for their service in reconstruction and other hazardous jobs. We help the Krogan work their way past the genophage in exchange for their warriors.


All fair points. I personally think there will be unknown variables in Mass Effect 3 that could mess up your grand plans for humanity, but that's just my personal opinion.

#3564
SandTrout

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111987 wrote...

All fair points. I personally think there will be unknown variables in Mass Effect 3 that could mess up your grand plans for humanity, but that's just my personal opinion.

I'm fully aware even the best laid plans do not survive contact with the enemy, but knowing your goal lets you adjust your plans as needed.

A guy can dream, can't he?:innocent:

#3565
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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SandTrout wrote...

111987 wrote...

All fair points. I personally think there will be unknown variables in Mass Effect 3 that could mess up your grand plans for humanity, but that's just my personal opinion.

I'm fully aware even the best laid plans do not survive contact with the enemy, but knowing your goal lets you adjust your plans as needed.

A guy can dream, can't he?:innocent:

Aww and I was just about to start playing "Imperial March"!

Only we'd be better than the empire! Because we'd be the first amongst....mostly equals instead of "Humanity is superior aliunz iz teh suxor"!

#3566
Kaiser Shepard

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Anyone got any suggestions for a new subject to discuss?

#3567
Seboist

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Anyone got any suggestions for a new subject to discuss?


To kill or not to kill Shiala?

#3568
Kaiser Shepard

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Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Anyone got any suggestions for a new subject to discuss?


To kill or not to kill Shiala?

Sounds good to me. But should we contain the question to just her or the rest of the colonists as well?

#3569
Seboist

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Anyone got any suggestions for a new subject to discuss?


To kill or not to kill Shiala?

Sounds good to me. But should we contain the question to just her or the rest of the colonists as well?


Either works for me.

#3570
ddv.rsa

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Shiala had it coming. Even if she was indoctrinated by the time you find her on Feros, she started off following Benezia and Saren willingly.

She tried to kill Shepard, participated in an attack on a human colony, and she may still be indoctrinated. A few soft words don't excuse all of that.

#3571
AlexXIV

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ddv.rsa wrote...

Shiala had it coming. Even if she was indoctrinated by the time you find her on Feros, she started off following Benezia and Saren willingly.

She tried to kill Shepard, participated in an attack on a human colony, and she may still be indoctrinated. A few soft words don't excuse all of that.

Will you condemn everyone who made a mistake, even if they regret and try to make up for it?

#3572
Yakko77

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Seboist wrote...

Spectres are absolutely a secret police force. There's a CDN story of Tela Vasir wiping out the members of a "wikileaks" like organization.



That's.... kind of cool actually!

:devil:

#3573
Seboist

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In my canon femshep playthrough the only thing that prevented Shiala from swallowing a bullet and having her carcass thrown down the hole the Thorian fell as punishment for serving Saren was her offering to work in the service of humans. My womanizer Sheploo on the other hand spared her because he was hoping to tap that ass at a later time and place. :P

Unfortunately for her my pseudo-canon femshep has no tolerance for aliens who act against humans and she ended up kicked down the hole "300" style.

#3574
ddv.rsa

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AlexXIV wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Shiala had it coming. Even if she was indoctrinated by the time you find her on Feros, she started off following Benezia and Saren willingly.

She tried to kill Shepard, participated in an attack on a human colony, and she may still be indoctrinated. A few soft words don't excuse all of that.

Will you condemn everyone who made a mistake, even if they regret and try to make up for it?


Of course not. It depends on the scale of the mistake. Personally I find Shiala beyond redemption.

#3575
111987

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ddv.rsa wrote...

Shiala had it coming. Even if she was indoctrinated by the time you find her on Feros, she started off following Benezia and Saren willingly.

She tried to kill Shepard, participated in an attack on a human colony, and she may still be indoctrinated. A few soft words don't excuse all of that.


Weren't Benezia and her followers trying to stop Saren at first?