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[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

[So now just imagine the NVA is the US Navy SEALs and now you have Cerberus.

Exactly. I don't get why Lotion still tries to deny it.

Also, from  N7 OPS: masseffect.bioware.com/me3/n7ops/enemies/

"Cerberus Trooper:

Fearless, disciplined and unrelenting, Cerberus Assault Troopers are the backbone of the Illusive Man's army. Outfitted with custom-designed armor and rifles, these well-equipped soldiers function with determined precision. The first to rush in to a fight, the assault troopers are often supported by more powerful units on the battlefield. As the galaxy crumbles, their loyalty to Cerberus only grows more absolute."

There you have the official source. Now let's leave the army topic.

So when you have an army of Navy SEALs fighting hundreds of phantom wars...

And when your opponent has a hunderd time more navy seals fighting against you...
With orbital support. And popular support. And better logistic...

[SandTrout]

First off, Phaedon is being obstinate and is drinking his own kool-ade. Lotion is being abrasive, but is using actual logic in his arguments, if you ignore the smilies and insults.

Secondly, the NVA comparison to Cerberus in not valid. Cerberus has enough money to fun 1k employees, some of which are soldiers, but the NVA had vastly more people, multiple nations supplying it, and it still did not defeat the US military. South Vietnam did not fall until after the US pulled the vast majority of its troops out, essentially abandoning it because of political pressure back home.

A closer(but still poor) analogy would be to strategically compare Cerberus to Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda can instigate things and cause political changes within nations it can recruit from, but is not really a reasonable threat to the sovereignty of developed western nations, and is only capable of painful, but strategically meaningless, attacks. Likewise, Cerberus can influence political aspects of the Alliance, and may be a headache for other species, but it can hardly be considered a threat to the overall stability of any alien nation that is not already near a tipping point.

As for the Salarian STG hero 'ending a war with a single shot', we do not know the background there, and if a single shot managed to start or end a war, then there was without a doubt, more going on than just that single shot. Similar to how the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand triggered WW1, there was a whole lot more going on in the back ground than one guy getting killed and throwing everyone into a frenzy of war.

P.S. Also, unconventional warefare has never won a war on its own. It is only ever effective when it augments a conventional force. SEALs do not take on regiments, they strike Command and Control, Supply Lines, and train local forces.

Modifié par SandTrout, 31 juillet 2011 - 08:12 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


And yes, they universe crumbled because of it...No, wait, the universe hardly acknowledges their resistance.

Adn yes...Cerberus super-spies that can infiltrate everywhere and do evrything. Sabotage hunderds of ships? Puh-lease.
Cerberus would be lucky if it manages to dealy 2-3 ships.

Cerberus is turning into an all power Chuck Norris around here it seems - tehy do anything to anyone with ease!

Well, that'd contradict the point in being a secret organization, now wouldn't it?

By the way. Disabling/destroying ships? It's not that hard. You'd be surprised how easy things can break during FTL.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


And yes, they universe crumbled because of it...No, wait, the universe hardly acknowledges their resistance.

Adn yes...Cerberus super-spies that can infiltrate everywhere and do evrything. Sabotage hunderds of ships? Puh-lease.
Cerberus would be lucky if it manages to dealy 2-3 ships.

Cerberus is turning into an all power Chuck Norris around here it seems - tehy do anything to anyone with ease!

Well, that'd contradict the point in being a secret organization, now wouldn't it?

By the way. Disabling/destroying ships? It's not that hard. You'd be surprised how easy things can break during FTL.

and you'd be surprised to know that militaries of hte word have those thing called...SECURITY MEASURES.

Really...

First the silly "Cerberus can take over any government!" BS and now this. What do you think their opposition is? Stones? That they don't have counter-espionage and security measures? That Cerberus is the only organization that doese that sort of stuff?

If these things were so easy, everyone would be doing them constantly. No one would go to war, because their spies would disable/sabotage the enemy war machines compeltely..And they would take over their governments!
History is full of wars that ended like thi- .. oh wait... it's not!

[Pulletlamer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

[So now just imagine the NVA is the US Navy SEALs and now you have Cerberus.

Exactly. I don't get why Lotion still tries to deny it.

Also, from  N7 OPS: masseffect.bioware.com/me3/n7ops/enemies/

"Cerberus Trooper:

Fearless, disciplined and unrelenting, Cerberus Assault Troopers are the backbone of the Illusive Man's army. Outfitted with custom-designed armor and rifles, these well-equipped soldiers function with determined precision. The first to rush in to a fight, the assault troopers are often supported by more powerful units on the battlefield. As the galaxy crumbles, their loyalty to Cerberus only grows more absolute."

There you have the official source. Now let's leave the army topic.

So when you have an army of Navy SEALs fighting hundreds of phantom wars...

And when your opponent has a hunderd time more navy seals fighting against you...
With orbital support. And popular support. And better logistic...

Still do we agree it's an army, or not?

Also TIM is an information trader, plus Cerberus has operatives infiltrated on the high-rankings of the Alliance, which means plenty logistic support. Even more important when you actually know what your enemy is going to do.

How many guns you have in your base doesn't matter if I know where to put a bomb and blow it up. Or those hundred navy seals you're calling can be misguided or forced to follow orders an infiltrated Cerberus officer can say.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...

First off, Phaedon is being obstinate and is drinking his own kool-ade. Lotion is being abrasive, but is using actual logic in his arguments, if you ignore the smilies and insults.[/quote]

I can understand poeple not liking my tone (especially when I run into a wall of un-logic)
But what's everyone's problem with the smileys?
They are there for a purose folks...

And besides, they make my posts prettier...wheeeeeee:wizard:

[/quote]

[AlanC9]

Seriously, Lotion.... are you actually twelve? I thought I was joking before, but I'm not certain anymore.

Not that there's anything wrong with being twelve.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

and you'd be surprised to know that militaries of hte word have those thing called...SECURITY MEASURES.

Really...

First the silly "Cerberus can take over any government!" BS and now this. What do you think their opposition is? Stones? That they don't have counter-espionage and security measures? That Cerberus is the only organization that doese that sort of stuff?

If these things were so easy, everyone would be doing them constantly. No one would go to war, because their spies would disable/sabotage the enemy war machines compeltely..And they would take over their governments!
History is full of wars that ended like thi- .. oh wait... it's not!

Wow, you are taking things so wrong and so out of proportion, there's no reason to even comment on any of the BS you're constantly spitting out, because it's always "LOLZ, i r rite and ur not".

The Alliance was infiltrated by Cerberus a long time ago. That's why they got away with killing admirals. That's how they know about the Alliance's secret projects.

And I don't think I've ever said that Cerberus can conquer entire races or anything. Just that they're more trouble than they're worth, and that they can do some serious damage if they want to.

Then again, until you can grasp the concept behind guerilla warfare (which you obviously can't at the moment), I think this conversation isn't going anywhere.

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Phaedon wrote...


Oh, actually, no, you are wrong.

He defeated a nation with a single shot. Unless you say that he comitted genocide, then that nation was disbanded or surrendered.

And for your argument to stand, you would really really really rather he just had that nation surrender. 

SAUCE.

tioehrwise it's rubbish.

If you try to base all that on jsut one line, then its' rubbish.

First off, you are -and I am being honest here- making progressively less sense with any post and your logic breaks even further.

Anyway, the "SAUCE" is here:

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The NVA comparison is not really that good. However, from a historical point, the NVA stalemated the US Military. The war was unwinnable. That's why the US left. Same thing is happening in Afghanistan. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Now back to ME and morality and a little about how Cerberus operates: Cerberus may be able to support a private military of about 1000. However, they can buy politicians, they can put their own people in power (Terra Firma Party), and take over the Alliance that way. Not a single shot has to be fired. Propaganda is the sharpest and strongest weapon of Cerberus.

TIM is all about "the end justifies the means" without regard to anything justifying the end. He is ruthless. Yet he believes himself to be good. The total renegade Shepard is the same way. Saren believed himself to be good up until he realized what he had done.

Propaganda is the same as indoctrination. It is lies repeated over and over and over again. The bigger the lie, the more likely the people will believe it. That is how Cerberus operates through their surrogates.

The Reapers just do it differently. They indoctrinate by invading the mind. The results are the same except they happen faster. They are extremely efficient at it. Cerberus studies Reaper indoctrination, but for what purpose? To defeat the Reapers or for their own ends? Once this method is learned, once the Reapers are defeated (if they are), does Cerberus then turn it on our own or the rest of the races in the galaxy? I think they would.

If you adopt the methods of your enemy you have not truly defeated them. You have become them. There are times when the end can justify the means, but only if there is something to justify the end.

The idea of "sacrificing humanity's soul" is symbolic, not religious. The Shepard who says that does not believe the means would justify the end.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:13 .

[SandTrout]

Propaganda is the same as indoctrination. It is lies repeated over and over and over again. The bigger the lie, the more likely the people will believe it. That is how Cerberus operates through their surrogates.

Which is why I like to practice loud, vicious denunciation of lies. If people are hearing two things yelled that are mutually exclusive, they will be forced to check the facts themselves.

In any case, I generally agree that Cerberus can significantly influence the Alliance, but it the premise that it can take over any alien culture on its own is pretty far fetched.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

SandTrout wrote...
In any case, I generally agree that Cerberus can significantly influence the Alliance, but it the premise that it can take over any alien culture on its own is pretty far fetched.

I was getting at that they could use the knowledge of Reaper type indoctrination to do that to ensure human dominance in the galaxy. And remember to TIM, Cerberus IS Humanity.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

TIM is all about "the end justifies the means" without regard to anything justifying the end. He is ruthless. Yet he believes himself to be good.

So I was right..........TIM IS Lex Luthor!

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:18 .

[SandTrout]

Phaedon

First off, you are -and I am being honest here- making progressively less sense with any post and your logic breaks even further.

To be honest, you have not made a whole lot of sense from the beginning. You claim that 1 line, in a military motivational speech, is proof that Cerberus is a threat to all alien cultures, even though we know nothing about the context, or even the event in question.

[SandTrout]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I was getting at that they could use the knowledge of Reaper type indoctrination to do that to ensure human dominance in the galaxy. And remember to TIM, Cerberus IS Humanity.

So your premise is that giving TIM access to the CB is giving him a jump-start on indoctrination, and with a monopoly on that technology, he could forcefully dominate alien species?

[Someone With Mass]

SandTrout wrote...
To be honest, you have not made a whole lot of sense from the beginning. You claim that 1 line, in a military motivational speech, is proof that Cerberus is a threat to all alien cultures, even though we know nothing about the context, or even the event in question.

Then again, give Cerberus' background and goal, there's not much wiggle room.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

SandTrout wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I was getting at that they could use the knowledge of Reaper type indoctrination to do that to ensure human dominance in the galaxy. And remember to TIM, Cerberus IS Humanity.

So your premise is that giving TIM access to the CB is giving him a jump-start on indoctrination, and with a monopoly on that technology, he could forcefully dominate alien species?

Forcefully is not the word I'd use. Subtly is the word I'd use. It would be by infiltration. Cerberus indoctrinated members of other races carrying small indoctrination devices and planting them in key places. The maintenance person places one in the office of one of the Asari government officials, for example.

Since we don't know the condition of the HR embryo, there is a possibility and a very good one that giving him the CB could do just that. The opportunity to study indoctrination further. Understanding how it works might allow them to develop a counter, but it also gives them a weapon. Knowing human nature, it would be used as a weapon.

And it would be completely consistent with the Cerberus Mission Statement. "Our mission is to ensure Human dominance in the galaxy. Nothing more. Nothing less." -- TIM in the initial conversation with Shepard. He is careful not to say "by any means necessary." But that is implied by other Cerberus operation in ME1, Pragia (although he allegedly didn't know the EXTENT of the experiements conducted), and others.

I also acknowledge that at this point, without having ME3 out, pretty much anything we're discussing is pure conjecture.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:40 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

@shotgun
Is there anything humans can't use as a weapon?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

TIM is all about "the end justifies the means" without regard to anything justifying the end. He is ruthless. Yet he believes himself to be good.

So I was right..........TIM IS Lex Luthor!

Absolutely!

And no, there isn't anything that humans can't turn into a weapon, or at least attempt to turn into a weapon.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Eranen wrote...
which brings to mind what sovereign said in ME1  "you evolve along the lines we design" (or something like that). 

What sovereign said was: "Your civilisation is based on the technology of the mass relays, OUR technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

Which is kinda how I feel about keeping the base might not make a difference. The base is THEIR technology so I doubt we can surprise the reapers by using technology THEY invented. We need something different, we need something new. That's how I think about it.

This argument is always met by:they didn't intend on anyone getting to the base so it is off the beaten path.

[SandTrout]

I have no doubt that TIM would be willing to indoctrinate the heads of alien nations, but I would point out that this advantage will probably be short-lived. In the wake of the Galactic war, there is going to be a lot of Reaper technology laying around everywhere, and I imagine that most governments will be studying indoctrination, both as a tool and to develop ways to protect against it.

This would be a high priority for just about any nation, I would think, so while Cerberus may get a jump-start on everyone else, it will be a limited advantage after the war.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

This may be a bit off topic,but post-war would all of the salvaged reaper tech throw the galactic economy off balance?

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:48 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlanC9 wrote...

Seriously, Lotion.... are you actually twelve? I thought I was joking before, but I'm not certain anymore.

Not that there's anything wrong with being twelve.

If you can't make jokes at your own expense, you got no sense of humor.

Lighten up people. Life is too short, enjoy it a little

And if you have to ask..no, I'm 30.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

and you'd be surprised to know that militaries of hte word have those thing called...SECURITY MEASURES.

Really...

First the silly "Cerberus can take over any government!" BS and now this. What do you think their opposition is? Stones? That they don't have counter-espionage and security measures? That Cerberus is the only organization that doese that sort of stuff?

If these things were so easy, everyone would be doing them constantly. No one would go to war, because their spies would disable/sabotage the enemy war machines compeltely..And they would take over their governments!
History is full of wars that ended like thi- .. oh wait... it's not!

Wow, you are taking things so wrong and so out of proportion, there's no reason to even comment on any of the BS you're constantly spitting out, because it's always "LOLZ, i r rite and ur not".

The Alliance was infiltrated by Cerberus a long time ago. That's why they got away with killing admirals. That's how they know about the Alliance's secret projects.

And I don't think I've ever said that Cerberus can conquer entire races or anything. Just that they're more trouble than they're worth, and that they can do some serious damage if they want to.

Then again, until you can grasp the concept behind guerilla warfare (which you obviously can't at the moment), I think this conversation isn't going anywhere.

"Infiltrated" and "in control" are two compeltely different things.

And maybe it wasn't you, but some poeple did start with Cerberus enslaving other races BS.
Can Cerberus be trouble? Yes. Huge trouble? No.
Every other faction or race in the ME universe could cause infinitely more trouble.