3618 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Phaedon wrote...

We do not know anything about this 'single shot' or how much of it is hyperbole.
It is not a valid point of argument. See my WW1 example for how 'one shot' is rarely the full scope of the issue.

The hell? Are you suggesting that the ministers of the nation were looking for a chance to surrender themselves? Okaaaay.

Actually, it wouldn't be the first time that something similar has happened in history, and you are suggesting that a powerful, stable nation was brought to its knees because it lost 1 politician, general, or whatever.... My actual point is that you are presenting something that we know nothing about as proof of Cerberus's status as threat to existing galactic government. While your conclusion may or may not be right, this piece of evidence is BS.

[Phaedon]

SandTrout wrote...
Actually, it wouldn't be the first time that something similar has happened in history, and you are suggesting that a powerful, stable nation was brought to its knees because it lost 1 politician, general, or whatever.... My actual point is that you are presenting something that we know nothing about as proof of Cerberus's status as threat to existing galactic government. While your conclusion may or may not be right, this piece of evidence is BS.

It's a perfectly valid example of it happenning. Maybe the nation wasn't stable, but do you think that the Alliance will be powerful or stable after the invasion? They won't have much of a military force for starters.

For further proof, read my other post.

Modifié par Phaedon, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

Two things I like to point out.

First, it's virtually impossible (and stupid) to block a mass relay, because of the drift that's a couple of thousand kilometers. And you'd just put your own ships in danger, because a hit with something that travels at that speed won't end pretty.

Second, Pel and Kai Leng are clearly racist in the books. And they both work/worked for Cerberus.

[marshalleck]

Saren is clearly racist and he worked for the Council.

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:41 .

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

Saren is clearly racist and he worked for the Council.

He was racist towards humans (and with good reasons. Hell, I agree with him in some cases), while most Cerberus members just hates everything that isn't human.

And Cerberus is hiring people because of their xenophobia.

The Council just sees the Spectres as their instruments and more than likely don't care about the Spectres' racial viewpoints as long as they can get the job done.

[marshalleck]

Oh please, Saren was an embodiment of the institutional racism constantly on display by the Council. You're just too blinded by your self-hating antihuman angst to see or admit it.

And I'm pretty sure to be recruited by Cerberus you have to possess some pretty elite skills and a certain moral flexibility, not just be some inbred hick racist of the Terra Firma garden variety (unless your entire purpose is to be some political sock puppet for TIM)

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 juillet 2011 - 11:55 .

[Phaedon]

Oh boy. A quote by Carl Sagan used to support ultranationalism.

marshalleck wrote...

Oh please, Saren was an embodiment of the institutional racism constantly on display by the Council. You're just too blinded by your self-hating antihuman angst to see or admit it.

Yeah, that's a nice theory, I suppose that Nihlus was secretly racist as well. Or that Saren advanced within the turian military too, because he was racist. Or that Saren was openly racist in front of the council.

And I'm pretty sure to be recruited by Cerberus you have to possess some pretty elite skills and a certain moral flexibility, not just be some inbred hick racist of the Terra Firma garden variety (unless your entire purpose is to be some political sock puppet for TIM)

Racism is definitely a motive by some, and racism comes along with moral flexibility, so...

Modifié par Phaedon, 01 août 2011 - 12:00 .

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

Oh boy. A quote by Carl Sagan used to support ultranationalism.

I'm a sucker for irony.

Yeah, that's a nice theory, I suppose that Nihlus was secretly racist as well. Or that Saren advanced towards the turian military too, because he was racist. Or that Saren was openly racist in front of the council

You're typing words here, and individually I understand them, but when strung together as you have, none of it makes sense. Try again.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 12:01 .

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...

Oh please, Saren was an embodiment of the institutional racism constantly on display by the Council. You're just too blinded by your self-hating antihuman angst to see or admit it.

And I'm pretty sure to be recruited by Cerberus you have to possess some pretty elite skills and a certain moral flexibility, not just be some inbred hick racist of the Terra Firma garden variety (unless your entire purpose is to be some political sock puppet for TIM)

There's a big difference between institutional racism constantly on display by the council as you put it and a council trying to keep order by not allowing one side have its own way all the time, especially in a galaxy where some races believe humanity already has been given preferential treatment and an easier ride.

While it s true that to be recruited by cerberus an elite skill set is one of the probable guidelines, its also true that pro human standpoints are even a bigger one, considering what we've heard about Kai leng it actually can be suggested that those who are inbred hick racists may actually be the ones Cerberus trusts most.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...


[quote]
Now back to ME and morality and a little about how Cerberus operates: Cerberus may be able to support a private military of about 1000. However, they can buy politicians, they can put their own people in power (Terra Firma Party), and take over the Alliance that way. Not a single shot has to be fired. Propaganda is the sharpest and strongest weapon of Cerberus.[/quote]

No, they cna't. One can't take over humanity like that. That sounds like plan by somce cheap cartoonish villain. One of those that speak of "taking over the world" as if it was as simple and mundane as buying bread at the bakery...

Cerberus buy a ppolitician? There are others with more money. What about those you can't buy? What about those that take your money, but stop returning your calls? Or get discredited soon after?

Each nation has it's representative in the Alliance. And each nations intelligence and security would be guarding them. Cerberus would have to get the majority of them on it's side - mission impossible.

The political arena is a cluserf***. Too many interestest, too many currents gnawing at eachother. Cerberus is just another player.
One doesn't have to look any futher than our own history - when has any illegial black ops group managed to take over a vast union of nations?[/quote][/quote]

They can't? I didn't say it would be overnight, did I? No. I didn't. This is straight out of Goebbels' and Stalin's playbook, and is being employed by large corporations to "influence" or shall I cut to the chase, bribe politicians today, which is why the world is in such a mess.

Campaign contributions get laundered through PACs so that the public doesn't know who exactly is sponsoring which political movement. It is so easy to do these days. Once they take the money they're owned. Stop returning the calls they sometimes can end up in prison or dead.

[quote][quote]
TIM is all about "the end justifies the means" without regard to anything justifying the end. He is ruthless. Yet he believes himself to be good. The total renegade Shepard is the same way. Saren believed himself to be good up until he realized what he had done. [/quote]

It seems to me he does it only if he thinks its necessary. As he said it himself "no one wants to make these kinds of decisions, but sometimes we have to".
Ruthless, yes. But people in those kind of positions have to be.
I don't really consider TIM evil...more neutral. He's trying to protect humanity, and doesn't consider human sacrifices to be too high a price to pay[/quote][/quote]

Sounds like someone trying to justify his own actions in his own mind. You and I have totally different ideas about what is evil and what is neutral. That bit you added about the protecting humanity and doesn't consider human sacrifices to be too high a price tells me he has no regard for human life or alien life. Only his own personal power over it. His willingness to sacrifice Horizon to "entrap" the Collectors for example. He is evil and a demagogue.

[quote][quote]
If you adopt the methods of your enemy you have not truly defeated them. You have become them. There are times when the end can justify the means, but only if there is something to justify the end.

The idea of "sacrificing humanity's soul" is symbolic, not religious. The Shepard who says that does not believe the means would justify the end.
[/quote]

I always play Paladins and Lawfull Good kinda guys, eheever possible. And yet I consider Sheppards sentance laughable.

[/quote]

That was just bad writing, but they didn't want to have a long cutscene/conversation between the two of them, so it got shortened to that.

FYI, I usually play rogues, rangers, and assassins.

[alperez]

SandTrout wrote...

A closer(but still poor) analogy would be to strategically compare Cerberus to Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda can instigate things and cause political changes within nations it can recruit from, but is not really a reasonable threat to the sovereignty of developed western nations, and is only capable of painful, but strategically meaningless, attacks. Likewise, Cerberus can influence political aspects of the Alliance, and may be a headache for other species, but it can hardly be considered a threat to the overall stability of any alien nation that is not already near a tipping point.

What if though in the analogy you present, it was Al qaeda who possessed the more technilogically advanced weapons?

Also in that analogy, what would happen if when Al qaeda decided to strike the people they struck against were either in the midst of fighting an enemy of even superior firepower or in the aftermath of recovering from those attacks.

Again wouldn't either of these scenarios change the playing field considerably.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
You're typing words here, and individually I understand them, but when strung together as you have, none of it makes sense. Try again.

Doesn't look like you are a sucker for irony, then.

With the use of Sarcam Removal Spray ™, you get the following.

-Nihlus is pretty open-minded about humanity, and goes as far as Saren does, and well, he happens to be a turian. And a Spectre.

-Saren was a relatively high-ranking turian officer. He didn't become a Spectre because he was racist.

-Saren has been known to not disclose all of his motivations and methods in the reports that he sends to the Council.

Modifié par Phaedon, 01 août 2011 - 12:08 .

[marshalleck]

alperez wrote...

There's a big difference between institutional racism constantly on display by the council as you put it and a council trying to keep order by not allowing one side have its own way all the time,

Agreed. It's sickening how they're always ensuring the big three always come out on top, and how quickly they're willing to throw an entire species under a bus to protect their own interests. See: krogan, quarian, batarian, human. But this is old material, no sense diving in head first yet again. 

especially in a galaxy where some races believe humanity already has been given preferential treatment and an easier ride.

Yeah, you mean like all the aggro racist batarians we meet? Or the profoundly racist Saren?

While it s true that to be recruited by cerberus an elite skill set is one of the probable guidelines, its also true that pro human standpoints are even a bigger one, considering what we've heard about Kai leng it actually can be suggested that those who are inbred hick racists may actually be the ones Cerberus trusts most.

And what exactly have you heard which leads you to draw this conclusion? Because from what I've seen, TIM seems to mostly want people who are committed to the cause, yes, but more importantly willing to do what's necessary to get results. Even if the results are comically stereotypical villainous ineptitude and mayhem.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

Doesn't look like you are a sucker for irony, then.

With the use of Sarcam Removal Spray ™, you get the following.

-Nihlus is pretty open-minded about humanity, and goes as far as Saren does, and well, he happens to be a turian. And a Spectre.

-Saren was a relatively high-ranking turian officer. He didn't become a Spectre because he was racist.

-Saren has been known to not disclose all of his motivations and methods in the reports that he sends to the Council.

-I don't see why you're bringing Nihlus into this. I was talking about Saren. You know, the big bad from the first game? Not all turians are the same bro, you racist. 

-relevance? Saren was still a hardcore racist working for the Council, who often turned a blind eye to his actions because he got results. Sound familiar?

-see above

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
-I don't see why you're bringing Nihlus into this. I was talking about Saren. You know, the big bad from the first game? Not all turians are the same bro, you racist.

You are claiming that Saren is the embodiment of the Council, but why not Nihlus?

-relevance? Saren was still a hardcore racist working for the Council, who often turned a blind eye to his actions because he got results. Sound familiar?

-see above

Actually, Saren's morality is completely irrelevant if the Council didn't hear about his methods (to a full extent, at least). Your argument would be valid if they perfectly knew that he hated humans and that that affected his work.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
[quote]You have no proof conventional weaponry can't kill a repaer - in fact, we know mass accelerators cna kill them (the derelict reaper)[/quote]
I do, and you are wrong. 

It took two of the biggest  fleets, the Citadel and the Arcturus one and they couldn't even take a single Reaper down. Harming a Reaper fleet is not even debatable. Hence why your claims about harming a Reaper fleet in the past, and harming it in the future with conventional weapons is absolutely absurd.

And no, a mass accelerator canon never took down a Reaper, but a superweapon using to some extent, mass effect technolodgy. There is a difference to them. The kind of difference that differentiates conventional weapons to WMDs and superweapons.[/quote]

No, it's a mass accelerator, only a giant one.



[quote]
[quote]If reapers cannot even be hurt at all, why doesn't no one in the game acknowledge that?[/quote]
Because you never ask anyone? Jeez. You have faced a single Reaper, who could not be taken down by two of the biggest fleets in the galaxy.

At no point in the game is it suggested that Reapers can be harmed, even with the prolonged use of conventional weaponry. Because as you have seen, the prolonged sustained fire by two big fleets could not even take down a single Reaper. At what point will you have two fleets facing a single Reaper.[/quote]

Wrong.
You can talk with Hackett and he  implies the OPPOSITE. He implies reapers CAN be hurt with conventional weapons and that indeed sovereing WAS taken down that way.

I'll jsut ignore the rest of your "you cannot hurt reaprs stuff", the other readers will thank me for it.



[quote]
[quote]Again, sez who?[/quote]
The lore says so. According to it, 2180-era conventional weaponry failed to take down a Reaper. It took two fleets and they couldn't do it. [/quote]

no.


[quote]
[quote]
By feeding tech data and any advancecements to the Allaicne. Then the Alliance retrofits and modifies their ships.
Reper tech can be used to icrese effectivens of existing technolgoy and weapons. Hence, advanced conventional weaponry.
[/quote]
Well, good, I hoped you would say that. First off, Cerberus researching the HR, and the Alliance retrofitting all of their vessels would take a significant amount of time, probably years.

Even so, the Alliance, supposedly having a big navy, have no more than 200 vessels, only 8 of which are dreadnaughts.

The Reapers have thousands of forces, maybe hundrends of thousands. 

In a war, direct confrontantion or not (hide and seek), the Alliance fleet has the same chance of succeeding. Zero.[/quote]

You have no way of knowing how long it would take.

The Alliance is not alone.

And yes, using hit and run one could take down reapers one at a time.

And at no point did  Iever seee a thousand reapers. I counted no more than a hundered, but this is irrelevant as we won't know the exact numbers untill ME3 comes out.




[quote]
[quote]Yes, that's exactly how it works.. dear lord.....
Have you any idea what advancement and innovation is? Nope, apparently you don't.[/quote]
Yes, and as I said, nothing on the HR can achieve a significant result in combination with older technolodgies, that's what exactly what I said.

[quote]Technolgoy interacts in many unexpected ways. I don't need an alien gun to create a better gun. I can find an alien microwave, and use technolgoy from that to create a better gun. Or a new gun. Or something else entirely.[/quote]
And you are wrong again, of course, considering that there is no such thing as microwave weaponry -on a large scale at least- today or in the 2180s, you would have to create technolodgy from scratch, otherwise the microwave is useless.[/quote]

And you fail to see the point ...
bravo...





[quote]
[quote]And yes..teh larva that clearly has mettalic components, sensory equipemnt and a gun, has NO technoligy inside...despite it beign a frikkin terminator with a extra goo tank.

Congrats for not actuallyy debunking anything I said....[/quote]

That's exactly what it is, and that's exactly why you are so wrong.

It has metallic components - So what? It doesn't have an exoskeleton, and even if it is a super-duper alloy, which there is nothing to suggest that there is, no fleet can retrofit their ships with it, they'll have to create new ones from scratch. In a few months that is. Oh well. Tough luck.[/quote]

Your argument is bogus.
So at first it didnt' have anything. Now it has anything, but you can't retrofit ship in time?

Great work. you replace one redicolous argument once the first one fails, wiht another one that fails jsut as miserably.

Hint - you DON'T nkow what tech is i nthe base +HR. You DON'T know how long it wil ltake to find something usefull and apply it.
Your'e m,akign assumptions based on NOTIHNG.


[quote]
Sensors? - Ships have them to, did you see anything over the HR which you would consider impressive?[/quote]

Exactly how would you gauge that?
Do you perhaps now what informmation the HR got from those sensors? You fouind some terminal in-game that gave you that knowledge?

See tht AWACS? Doesn't look impressive to me. Let's ignore it...


[quote]
A gun? - Yes, good luck with that. You would have been better off listening what I have been saying over and over again, but you want to disprove yourself...by yourself. Well, I can't really complain. Even if the "gun" was compatible with any ship, you are forgetting the fact that as a main weapon, it sucks. It has less firepower than a Thanix canon, which can only make frigates have the firepower of a cruiser. Not impressive. In fact, it has similar firepower, to three Occuli fighters. Believe me, it doesn't stand a chance to a complete GARDIAN array. It is absolutely useless as a defensive weapon too.[/quote]

The principles behind the workings are important more than the gun itself.

And guns in-game are as powerfull as the difficulty sez they should be. Occulus cuts trough Normandy hull, yet once inside, it can't cut troug ha small container Shep is hiding behind. Explain their suddfen loss of power pls....

for hte love of God, stop using redicolous gameplay arguments....




[quote]
[quote]The possibilites are endless. I'm not to blame your mind cannot count past 10.[/quote]
Well, sure the "possibilities are endless" is a nice punchline, no matter that it carries no depth or in fact you have repeated it twice, offering no explanation as to why it can lead to "infinite new technolodgies". [/quote]

I have. Technology is like lego bricks. THINK about that for a second.

I'm not to blame you are only capable of assembling a police station following the blueprints and nothing else...




[quote]
And we do know the number of the Reaper fleet. The live action trailer says that they are "thousands", that means that the minimum amount of Reapers that could be over Earth would be 2000. If the entire Alliance fleet was around Earth that time -let's forget the fact that Earth's forces are on the run, btw- you would have 200 vessels of varied efficiency.[/quote]


Don't trust the trailers too much., they often show stuff that never appear in the game...




[quote]
[quote]Lets see them try do that if the galaxy really focuses on them. Cerberus surives because it's in the shadows and doesn't draw much attention to itself.
A few hunderd soldiers are insignificent next to the manpower and firepower of the alliance.[/quote]
That, a) Doesn't stop them from being an army, Releasing WMDs, c) Infiltrating the Alliance, d) Using guerilla tactics and attacking specific targets, e) Conducting political assasinations.[/quote]

a) a tiny army that will be crushed
which will triger a full-on galaxy hunt for them (and what Cerberus wouldn't do)
c) counter-intelligence
d) see b
e) teye done 1 or 2 since teh begingi nof Cerberus. Oh yeah..that sure destroyed the Alliance..






[quote]
[quote]Your claim is hilarious...that the entire humanity ha ssuch a small army. China alone has a bigger army TODAY.[/quote]
"Billions" ≥ 2.000.000.000

Try again.[/quote]

You said the Alliance has 360.00 soldiers. I demand a source for that rubbish.





[quote]This is space.
To get to any planet you need to use Mass Relays. Which can be blockaded.[/quote]
There are hundrends of Mass Relays, that's a fact, one of them is the number #314, remember? You can not blockade every single one linking to your system or nearby ones with sufficient ships.[/quote]

You don't need to blockade everything. Just those leading to your space.
And the races combined do have over a thousand ships.


[quote]
[quote]Yes, you need ships to win space wars. Space is the ultimate high gorund. If you're not holding it, you're not holding the planet. It's that simple.[/quote]
CDN says that you are wrong in two occasions.[/quote]

Sauce.




[quote]
[quote]And no contradiction there either. Civilain ships cannot match military ships - neither in training, nor experience, nor firepower. A few cerberus ships can't do squat agaisnt a fleet.
Too big a size differece, too big a numbers difference.[/quote]

Basically the same BS, but with more. Not only does Cerberus not need a fleet, they can easily infiltrate the Alliance, but you also fail to understand that civilian doesn't go past the lack of "SSV"

They can easily produce military-grade ships if they want to do so.[/quote]

No, they can't. This is redicolous.
That's like saiyng Bill Gates can start producing a navy that can rival the US fleet..and nobody would notice?
Not only wouldn't Cerberus be ableto support such a fleet, he wouldn't be able to build it.

Starships require shipyards and special materials. Cerberus barely managed to build 1 frigate.




[quote]
[quote]Human dominatiosn DOES NOT equal enslaving other races.[/quote]
It does when you mention "domination over the Reapers" in the same sentence.[/quote]

It doesn't.




[quote]
[quote]Adn that's not enough. Tehre's a limit to how many candidates or politicians you can "rig" at once. There's a limti to what you can do for a small organization like Cerberus.
Heck, entire nations tried to ursurp countries using such methods, and failed. And what about populat support? how do you think he'd get the people of hte Alliance to follow?[/quote]

Failed? Do you have any idea how many puppet govs exist today, alone? Popular support? Smear jobs, campaigns, people of the Alliance following? Propaganda, fake provokations.

Not enough? BS. All that they need is to get into the parliament in an important position and create fake situations where the aliens are provoking humans. A frigate, for example, destroyed, and it's (fake) records showing that it was a turian cruiser. [/quote]

Name those puppet states-. Adn then look into waht kind of nations they are, their pwoer, their stabiltiy and their leadership type.

And no, ti can't. You're making this sound like childs play. It's rubbish. Teh Alliance isn't some third-rate unstable little country with a petty dictator.
It's a strong, powerfull union where decision are made in a parliament.. with hunderds of members. You'd need to get most of hte parliament to your side. Which is redicolous to even thin you'd ever be able to do.

You'd think the internal securtiy agencies of the Alliance do nothing? Tehy they will jsut let you do that? Tehy there wouldnt' be a investigation into it? That you could honestly talk people so easily into war, when war means loosing so much (economy, market, political standing in the galaxy)?

Fantasy..pure, fantasy...






[quote][quote]
That's exactly what democracy is about. 
And who even cares? If most of the humanity is behind him, then it IS humanity by definition.[/quote]


You are so ignorant ("that's what democracy is about") and immature ("who cares if the masses are manipulated") that I can't even fathom.

Read a book about democracy next time, and get a conscience, as well as an interest  as to if the people governing you are criminals.[/quote]

Take a look out of the window and see the word for what it is, and not what you tihnk or want it to be.



[quote]
[quote]Cerberus doesn't have a fleet, it doesn't have a real army, [/quote]
a) Any collection of ships is a fleet, An army of commandos is real enough and it is all that Cerberus needs.

A) You're arguing semantics. You know I mean military fleet.
No, ti's not enough.

[quote]it doesn't the the faciltities ot create OR support it.[/quote]Source.

Shipyards are not allowed to build militry-grade ships
 for anyone but the nation/race. Cerberus doesn't have shipyards. They barely amanged to put together 1 frigate, and they had to hide it by ordering thousands of parts from thousands of suppliers, to avoid raising suspicion.


[quote]It doesn't have the support,[/quote]They can create the support.

They can't.


[quote]it doesn't have the resources.[/quote]Source.

The game. They don't have enough personall and not enough money. A few billions of income might sound like a lot, but is pittance comparatively to how much you need for a fleet.

[quote]And no, it can't just "create puppet government" like that. So simple. So easy. Which is why KGB and CIA rule hte world...right?[/quote]
If you actually studied recent history you would think twice before posting that. >.>

If you actually thought a bit about the situation ,you'd have never posted the argumetn in the first palce

[/quote]





[quote]
[quote]Peacefully? You don't. Reapers don't seem like the negotiating type.

For beyond...the same as I wrote above.[/quote]

You accept then, that the domination of the beyond has to be violent?[/quote]

No. Why should it?




[quote]
[quote]No, you can't. Especially not if 10 other neighbouring nations don't want you there.[/quote]
You can take over the nation by becoming elected, or assasinating the previous governemnt and installing a puppet government.[/quote]

Except the 10 other nations will prevent that by interfereing with THEIR black ops groups.

and yeah..becoming elected.rofl...


[quote]
Uh... what kind of resources does it take to produce husks, and how did the Collectors find them?[/quote]

Time, energy and bodies.
That's of course, assuming you can control them in the first place.


[quote]
[quote]Cerberus cannot make an army that could seriously threaten the galaxy. It is simply impossible.[/quote]
They accidentally created one that almost killed the de facto leader of Omega and her troops.[/quote]

That's not a proper army either.
Omega is pretty much a lawless station, and taking some gangsters by surprise is hardly impressive.




[quote]
[quote]Source? Common sense and logic. It's how cell-based organizations  that try to stay under the radar operate BY NECESSITY.[/quote]
Do I even need to say again, that Ken, Gabby, Joker, Chakwas contradict you?[/quote]

They don't. How do you know Cerberus didn't do extensive check on them before approaching them?


[quote]
[quote]Of course, in the game Cerberus does diplay it's logo openly, but hey... its just bad game deisgn. and agian, story and gameply segragation.[/quote]
Oh yeah, sure. No matter that concept art is based on writers' description of a character/location/concept.

And dropping 15 feet tall mechs, with logo or not = secrecy
Cool.[/quote]

Writers can make stupid mistakes too...
And by hte time mechs get into action, methinks Cerberus is beyond caring about secrecy.



[quote]
[quote]It's more than just money, which you obviously cannot grasp.[/quote]Logistics is money and everything that you can buy with money.[/quote]

Erm...no..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics
AND
http://en.wikipedia....itary_logistics




[quote]
[quote]I did watch the video. You're strething the sentance to ludocrisy. Dominance can be achieved in several ways. Where does he say he plans to dominate both in the exactly same way?

You got nothing. Your sentance is not proof.[/quote]

Other than the fact that you accepted that the "beyond the Reapers" part would require a violent response? Or that he actually mentioned dominating the Reapers as well?
Or that he believes that humans have a rightful position far above being one of the most powerful Council races?[/quote]

I didn't accept anything.Your'e misconstructing and lying again.
And no, I don't recall him ever saying that, espcially not in those words...




[quote]
[quote]Wanthing to be the top dog is now wrong and ayn race does it. IF you think the Asari leadership doesn't want ot dominate..or that teh turian or salarian or all others dont' want to dominate...you're delluding yourself.

Every nation looks out for it's own interests. Every nations wants ot be first.[/quote]

You obviously missed the "rightful" part, humanity already being either the most powerful, or one of the most powerful Council races.[/quote]

You're not adressing my point at all...



[quote]
[quote]Anyway, trasnport ships cannot match miltiary ships. [/quote]Transport ships are used for transport, why exactly would they not have military ships? And where is the evidence that these ships are not mounted with weapons?[/quote]

Your logic, that a transport can match a purpose-designed military warship..is...stunning.


[quote]
[quote]As I said again - Cerberus is like Blackwater.
If you think Blackwater (cerberus) can take on the US (Alliance) and hte rest of hte world (Council race..whichwoul be stronger than that, but what the heck), then you're living in a land of fantasy.[/quote]

For starters, BlackWater doesn't have a damn political part, and no sponsored candidates.[/quote]

Doesn't change a darn thing really..


[quote]
Brilliant and eloquent rebuttals aside, I'll repost my argument until you debunk it:
"And how will they do that? The remains of their forces are on the run very early into the Reaper invasion. And as I said, they could very well control the Alliance if they wish."[/qutoe]

And as I said, no, they cannot control the Alliance.
No, they cannot take on the Alliance.



[quote]
[quote]Adn if you're so concerned about the security risk the Cererus presents..why arne't you conerned with the securtiy risk others present? What if hte Asari turn on you? Far, FAAAR worse thany Cerberus....or Krogan? Or Salarains?
Let's face it, they have just as much reason to betray you as Cerberus.[/quote]


Easy. The Asari and the Krogan are also being attacked.
I am also a friend with the leader of the krogan homeworld.
I never supplied asari or krogan with potential WMDs, and I never will, at least idividually.
The asari and the krogan are not wanted. 
They are also not terrorists, and they haven't shown unjustified violence towards other species for centuries.[/quote]

Not easy.
If Ceberus can be indoctrinated, so can Asari..or Krogan.
If Saren can join the repaers, so can other turians, including their leadership. Or Asari.

EVERYONE can betray you.

And the last two lines have absolutely no relevance or impact whatsoever.



[quote]
...which is why we are discussing about a scenario where the Reapers fail and the Alliance survives...[/quote]

In which case Cerberus has even LESS chance of accomplishin anything.


[quote]
[quote]

You cannot prove to me that alien hate and desire to destroyall other alien is a common trait among cerberus memebers. Heck, you cannot even prove that conquering/enslaving aliesn is Cerberuses goal.[/quote]

You are still missing the point. You claimed that the Lazarus Project members are common Cerberus employees. 
"The Lazarus Cell consists of only 24 members, multiple of which having either been recruited recently or are familiar to Shepard, and their leaders support Shepard for destroying the base."
Also, Cerberus is an ultranationalist group, which supports that humans have a rightful position over the aliens (national socialism). That enough?[/quote]

No. You simply cannot prove any of your assurtions.


[quote]
[quote]You don't have to know. Be prepared.[/quote]So, basically, TIM...can't know?[/quote]

He doesn't have to. He can assume .that's enough.





[quote]
[quote]You dont' have to see them in the video. It's not liek ships have to be kissing the sovereigns ass to be in range to shoot it. Also, mass accelerated projectiles tend ot be redicolously fast. And well..ti's a cutsce that wasn't done propery..[/quote]Oh, I see it now.
-"It's not liek ships have to be kissing the sovereigns ass to be in range to shoot it" Why did they go kiss his ass in the initial phase, though?

Because the camera was in their ass

- "Also, mass accelerated projectiles tend ot be redicolously fast" No they are not, this is your BS. We can see them throughout the cutscenes, reaching their targets rather slowly. 

IIRC, those are missiles. The thin, extreemly fast moving thingies are mass  accelerators.

Oh and newsflash:
1) Your shields going down doesn't make you fall, losing control over your arms does,

How would you know? If hte feedback from a destroyed avatar can mess sovereign up, then so can his shields fizzling out.

2) Why did the Alliance stop firing if they didn't realize that the shields were down until the Normandy reported it?


-'And well..ti's a cutsce that wasn't done propery..' Let me get this straight. It doesn't work with your theory and therefore it wasn't done properly?  Real mature.[/quote]



[quote]
[quote]If you are stronger then you can also take out a potential threat.
Do some thinking yourself.[/quote]

There you go, you said it. You think that the CB can ensure human dominance over the Reapers, good job.
At no point can the CB make humanity strong enough to defeat the Reapers. That's facepalm-worthy.[/quote]

I disagree. You think CB is useless. I know it's not.
Your'e facepalm-worthy.



[quote]
[quote]Husks..indoctrination...other stuff. So yeas, they can easiyl supply of your worlds.[/quote]Supply what? Energy? Do you think you can just plug them in? That's the big idea?

Husks have limbs and manipulatrs. Salvees and indoctrinates alines cna build stuff FOR the reapers. Kinda like the collectors did. Which kinda answers the belwo two questions too.

[quote]And disableing the Citadel? They have all the time in the world to re-establish the connection while they extermiante the last pockets of resistance.[/quote]Unless you actually destroy the mechanism properly and permanently.
[quote]Heck, they cna take their sweet time to build a completely new Citadel...[/quote]With what materials, where do they come from? And with what energy? Do they have infinite energy? 



[quote]
[quote]
[quote]If yoI have said what? Your argument makes no sense. IT was YOU claim that you cna create reaper-killing super-weapons with current tech. What you smokin?[/quote]
Oh dear. Your actual quote is: "If you can create super-weapons with normal tech, then you can create EVEN BETTER super-weapons with reaper tech. Hence, researching the CB is not useless."
And you explicitly said that you can not compare the "normals" of one race to another when these two have made no contact.
You actually quote it, lol.[/quote]

Waht are you smoking? And why are you fishing my quotes for something you can use out of context?
Do you even know what I was referencing with that? And you didn't even quote me properly.

not only is that a pathetic attempt, but a rather sloppy one too.




[quote]
[quote]I meant the missile, genius![/quote]...
So did, I, Einstein. Go back and read my quote again.[/quote]

I have and it makess no sense and it relies on may assumptions.

1) that the missiels are too small for reaper point-defense. Nonsense
2) Taht cloacking tech can even be minimized to work o na missile
2) that using cloaking tech doesn't make missiles probitevly expensive, thus rendering your plan moot.
and a probably a few more I've missed.


[quote]
[quote]You talk to Hacket in arrival..you can talk about Sovereign.[/quote]Only in your wildest dreams.The question is named "The Reapers"[/quote]

Doesn't matter what the quetion is named, he does talk about sovereign.


[quote]
[quote]He seems mighty sure the Alliance can take on a repaer, but not many of them.[/quote]He says that it took the Destiny Ascension and multiple fleets to take down a Reaper. Which did happen, after Shepard took his shields down.
Unless the shields are somehow connected to the control of the arms, you are wrong, even if the Alliance fired a single projectile before, during or after the shields failed.[/quote]

Nope, trough the whole conversation, there isn't even a single hint of that theory of yours.




I'm a bit tired and too sleepy right now to asnwer the rest of this drivel..

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

You are claiming that Saren is the embodiment of the Council,

Nope.

As for why not Nihlus, because Nihlus has nothing to do with the conversation. 

Actually, Saren's morality is completely irrelevant if the Council didn't hear about his methods (to a full extent, at least). Your argument would be valid if they perfectly knew that he hated humans and that that affected his work.

The point is, they didn't care what his convictions were because he excelled at making their problems disappear. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 12:21 .

[DarkDragon777]

He just thinks that because Saren had a substantial impact on galactic events, while Nihlus did not. Saren was made to look like he represented the council, as he was claimed to be "the top spectre" or something along those lines.

[alperez]

marshalleck

So where exactly do the council big 3 as you put it show their own bias towards humanity?

As for the aggresive racist batarians or saren, well one's dead and the other don't really care what anyone else thinks about them so it wasn't really those i was talking about.

It was more the volus ambassador's comments that show just how humanity is viewed in the galaxy.

Considering Kai Leng is TIM's goto guy and considering his backstory, he's a pretty good example of just the kind of people cerberus recruits.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Wrong.
You can talk with Hackett and he  implies the OPPOSITE. He implies reapers CAN be hurt with conventional weapons and that indeed sovereing WAS taken down that way.

I'll jsut ignore the rest of your "you cannot hurt reaprs stuff", the other readers will thank me for it.

Where does Hackett say this, exactly?

And if Sovereign's shields went down because of the fire from the fleet (which is funny, because it looked more like the fleet was retreating and all the ships around Sovereign were reduced to scrap) then it would've been just that. If the shields caused an overload, he could've just rerouted it to non-critical systems, and then fight on without shields. The Normandy SR2's shields went down during the initial attack on the Collector ship past the O4R, but the whole system wasn't fried. The mass effect field generators just went offline. 

And since there were no ships neither near or shooting at Sovereign at the time, I'm going with the avatar option.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
Nope. 

As for why not Nihlus, because Nihlus has nothing to do with the conversation.

...what kind of logic is that? Nihlus is irrelevant because you didn't mention him?

 The point is, they didn't care what his convictions were because he excelled at making their problems disappear. 

Proof? Not saying that you are wrong, but that's not racist either.

[marshalleck]

alperez wrote...

marshalleck

So where exactly do the council big 3 as you put it show their own bias towards humanity?

Attempting to levy heavy sanctions against the Alliance for the Sidon incident, while all but admitting they are all running their own covert AI research programs. 

Refusing to render aid to human colonies under attack by geth, despite having strongly encouraged the SA to colonize worlds in the traverse. 

Refusing to investigate or render aid to colonial abductions by the Collectors. 

etc. etc. I'm sure I could add to this if I dug out the novels and spent some time flipping through them

As for the aggresive racist batarians or saren, well one's dead and the other don't really care what anyone else thinks about them so it wasn't really those i was talking about.

It was more the volus ambassador's comments that show just how humanity is viewed in the galaxy.

The volus. The species which signed away its sovereignty and then pisses and moans about having no say in matters of galactic politics? Yeah, it makes perfect sense that their ambassador would hold a huge grudge against a species which refuses to cower and grovel, and is rewarded with influence and a certain amount of prestige for their efforts.

Considering Kai Leng is TIM's goto guy and considering his backstory, he's a pretty good example of just the kind of people cerberus recruits.

Kai Leng is an exceptional individual in every regard; he's essentially portrayed as the anti-Shepard. Cerberus and humanity could only be so lucky if the common grunt was of his caliber. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 12:36 .

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Nope. 

As for why not Nihlus, because Nihlus has nothing to do with the conversation.

...what kind of logic is that? Nihlus is irrelevant because you didn't mention him?

Sorry Phaedon, I missed this post earlier. 

I think we're having a communication breakdown. I never said Saren embodies the Council; what I said, was he embodies the institutional racism on display by them. It is a character trait that reflects and underscores one of the themes in the game; it's not to say that the Council has officially tasked him with (and condoned) being their highly racist spokesturian. 

This is about Saren and his relationship to the Council, both as a Spectre and as a component of the overarching narrative. It's not about NIhlus. Nihlus is immaterial to the subject at hand.

Proof? Not saying that you are wrong, but that's not racist either.

No, it's not racist. I never said it was. It is however indicative of a willingness to tolerate and even in some cases (Anderson's Spectre evaluation) handwave Saren's, ahem...less than savory methods, because he gets results that are beneficial to them. 

It never ceases to amuse me how people seem to believe the Council's own BS about being this paragon of morality and egalitarianism. They're as ruthless and pragmatic as any in the galaxy, even Cerberus, and quite a bit moreso than some. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 12:55 .

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...


Attempting to levy heavy sanctions against the Alliance for the Sidon incident, while all but admitting they are all running their own covert AI research programs. 

Refusing to render aid to human colonies under attack by geth, despite having strongly encouraged the SA to colonize worlds in the traverse. 

Refusing to investigate or render aid to colonial abductions by the Collectors. 

etc. etc. I'm sure I could add to this if I dug out the novels and spent some time flipping through them

 
The first 2 were prior to humanities seat on the council (if i'm right) so by treating humanity the same as every other race who don't have a council seat, this proves your argument how exactly?

As for the collector argument, there is an ingame explanation as to why thats the case, so again how does this prove your argument?

The volus. The species which signed away its sovereignty and then pisses and moans about having no say in matters of galactic politics? Yeah, it makes perfect sense that their ambassador would hold a huge grudge against a species which refuses to cower and grovel, and is rewarded with influence and a certain amount of prestige for their efforts.

It doesn't make a difference what the volus did or did not do, its an indication of the attitude that some races have towards humanity, so the council's big 3 as you put it would have to take this attitude into account dealing with humanity, which again goes against what you imply in your original statement.

Kai Leng is an exceptional individual in every regard; he's essentially portrayed as the anti-Shepard. Cerberus and humanity could only be so lucky if the common grunt was of his caliber. 

He's also someone with a genuine hatred of aliens which again goes against the point your trying to make.