3618 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

I'm getting fed up with this board's quote function, so I'm just going to type and hopefully it won't come out a confusing mess. 

Regarding the Council prior to humans joining it:

It absolutely proves my point. The Council never acts in any interest but the interest of the big three. Even when they decided in favor of humanity's right to colonize the traverse, they did so because the batarians had a long history of being combative and difficult to leverage. Not to mention their insistence on enslaving the colonies of their neighbors. They didn't do it out of altruism, or care for "fairness" in human colonial rights. They did it because they wanted to use the humans' not inconsiderable military resources as both enforcer, to pacify the traverse itself but also as a buffer against the lawlessness of the Terminus. They were using humanity to pad their own borders without compromising their own military resources. 

When they stopped the turians from mobilizing for full-scale war, it wasn't out of a sense of justice for humanity. At least not primarily. It was because despite the inevitable turian victory, war with Earth at that time would have left huge swaths of the galaxy uninhabitable and exceptionally dangerous for navigation.

Regarding the volus:

It absolutely makes all the difference! Perceptions count for a great deal, and the volus amabassador is quite plainly covetous of humanity's position, which he attempts to cover very poorly with scorn. While his views are probably representative of certain perceptions of humanity, that doesn't mean those perceptions are 100% justified and valid. He's pissed because the volus painted themselves into a corner in becoming a client species of the turian hierarchy, he realizes the disadvantaged position his entire species is in, and he's pissed. And he takes it out on the first/nearest human to cross his path. I say he, and any who share his perspective can just deal with it.  Haters gonna hate. 

Regarding Kai Leng's hatred of aliens:

I never once said Kai Leng isn't extremely hostile toward aliens. His level of contempt for alien species is also exceptional. 

Now here's a question. When the Council does all these things above, they aren't racist. That's the contention, right? But when Cerberus seeks to act in the same way, they're branded racists, and space-N.azis. Why the double standard?

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 01:25 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Thank you for not using the great wall of quote.

[alperez]

marshalleck

Regarding what your saying about the council, i'm sorry but your making the wrong point, your original comment was that the council's displayed institutional racism constantly.

So how exactly is that shown by anything you've said?

Your equating a council's ruling body, treating a race that's not yet on that body as not as important as themselves, as being racist. When in fact its not, its treating a race that hasn't "earned their place" the same as every other race.

So pre getting a seat on the council, humanity are in fact of lesser importance than any of the so called big 3 as you put it and it would only be what happens once we do have a seat on the council, that actually should be taken into account.

In terms of the volus, i think your missing the point i was trying to make, i said that there are races that believe humanity has already been given too much, too soon, the volus ambassador was just an example of this.

Its because of these other races that the council would have to make it pretty clear that humanity doesn't get an even easier ride, whether those other races are right or wrong doesn't even enter the debate.

The mere fact they feel this way has to be something that the council has to take into account when dealing with humanites interests, by taking this into account once again this would not be showing the institutional racism you portrayed in your original argument, it would be showing common sense.

Again on the Kai leng, your orignal argument was that cerberus recruited people based on skill set and moral flexibility not just how they feel about aliens.

My point is that despite whatever skills Kai leng possess it is in fact his hatred of aliens that drives him to do what it is he does, considering he's TIM's go to guy, its as much if not more this trait that TIM was looking for as just his skill set.

[marshalleck]

So if it's not racist when the Council uses other species to further their own interests, why is it racist when Cerberus wants humanity to do the same?

keeping in mind Cerberus, for all their mistakes and bad ideas, never intentionally genetically sterilized an entire species, or stood by and watched with warships on the borders of its space while billions of quarians (including children, and many other who had absolutely nothing to do with any decisions regarding geth) were butchered in their beds.

these two crimes against sentient/sapient life are absolutely inexcusable and unforgivable

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 01:52 .

[SandTrout]

alperez wrote...

What if though in the analogy you present, it was Al qaeda who possessed the more technilogically advanced weapons?

Also in that analogy, what would happen if when Al qaeda decided to strike the people they struck against were either in the midst of fighting an enemy of even superior firepower or in the aftermath of recovering from those attacks.

Again wouldn't either of these scenarios change the playing field considerably.

Al Qaeda's available weapon systems are largely meaningless because the only 'more advanced' weapons that they could potentially get their hands on are nuclear weapons, which would instigate destruction of them as well. While those nutjobs might consider mutal anihilation as a good idea, Cerberus, as an institution, is not that self-destructive. Hell, they havn't even attempted to ram a asteroid into a Batarian planet or relay, yet.

Neither organization, however, has a practical use for truely advanced weapons, such as tanks, warships, fighter jets, and the like, primarily because they lack the logistical support to maintain and preserve those assets. If Al Qaeda got their hands on a true military ship of some sort, the dominant powers, in this case the US, would anihilate it in very short order.

Yes, the context of where and when Cerberus executes an opperation certainly do change the playing field, but the ability to choose that context is why Cerberus must remain a secret, rather than overt, organization. Even if they cause the downfall of some alien government, they are not in a position to take its place. They must settle for choosing the victor, rather than controlling that victor directly. They certainly can influence the course of events, but outright enslavement or subjugation of a species is beyond their means.

That said, Cerberus has not shown any indication that it wants to dominate all other alien species through violent means. If it simply wanted to remove all challengers from humanity's way by any means necessary, then they would have gone Arrival on the Batarians by now. They support diplomacy as much as any one, provided that humanity benefits from it.

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...

So if it's not racist when the Council uses other species to further their own interests, why is it racist when Cerberus wants humanity to do the same?

There are inherent differences between a council made up of all the races being run by the 3 largest of those races, using themselves and other races to further improve the interests of the collective and an unelected or democratic organisation using other species in order to promote their own idealogy above everyone elses.

The turians or the asari or the salarians can't do as they wish in order to make their own races the strongest, they have to answer to each other, whereas cerberus by going outside of anyone's opinion other than their own do not.

As for the 2 examples you give well again its a collective group making those choices and having to live with the consequences of them, not just any singular race making a choice for the benefit of that race only,

Modifié par alperez, 01 août 2011 - 01:57 .

[Someone With Mass]

I think the other races' distrust for humanity is justified pretty easy, considering how the humans pretty much took over everything in less than half a century and acts like they own the place and can get whatever they point at, while other races have been fighting to achieve the same level of status for thousands of years.

[marshalleck]

alperez wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

So if it's not racist when the Council uses other species to further their own interests, why is it racist when Cerberus wants humanity to do the same?

There are inherent differences between a council made up of all the races being run by the 3 largest of those races, using themselves and other races to further improve the interests of the collective and an unelected or democratic organisation using other species in order to promote their own idealogy above everyone elses.

The turians or the asari or the salarians can't do as they wish in order to make their own races the strongest, they have to answer to each other, whereas cerberus by going outside of anyone's opinion other than their own do not.

Except they don't improve the interests of the collective. How have krogan benefited from Council rule? Quarians? Batarians? Volus? Elcor? 

The only ones that benefit are turian, asari, salarian. The rest remain in a precariously neutral limbo at best, and lucky they aren't extinct at worst. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 02:00 .

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think the other races' distrust for humanity is justified pretty easy, considering how the humans pretty much took over everything in less than half a century and acts like they own the place and can get whatever they point at, while other races have been fighting to achieve the same level of status for thousands of years.

Perhaps they should spend less time blaming others, and more time considering how their own methods failed to produce results when humanity showed progress in swift order is achievable. 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I think the other races' distrust for humanity is justified pretty easy, considering how the humans pretty much took over everything in less than half a century and acts like they own the place and can get whatever they point at, while other races have been fighting to achieve the same level of status for thousands of years.

Envy maybe,jealousy absolutely,but I don't get why you wouldn't trust a race for being capable,if anything I would lose trust in the council (if i was an alien)

[Someone With Mass]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Envy maybe,jealousy absolutely,but I don't get why you wouldn't trust a race for being capable,if anything I would lose trust in the council (if i was an alien)

Well, humanity is part of the Council now too.

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Envy maybe,jealousy absolutely,but I don't get why you wouldn't trust a race for being capable,if anything I would lose trust in the council (if i was an alien)

Well, humanity is part of the Council now too.

We'll have to wait and see how that turns out. It's a very recent development in the Council's long history and sometimes it seems pretty shaky. 

[Phaedon]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, it's a mass accelerator, only a giant one.[/quote]
Only because one of the techs it uses happens to do with lowering the mass of an object. It's not comparable at all, because it's fired from the ground, which is completely new for the MEverse (AA weapons that we have heard of are GARDIAN canons), and it fires only once.

The only relevance is that at some point, it lowers the mass of the projectile, dozens of things happen before and after it. 




[quote]Wrong.
You can talk with Hackett and he  implies the OPPOSITE. He implies reapers CAN be hurt with conventional weapons and that indeed sovereing WAS taken down that way.

I'll jsut ignore the rest of your "you cannot hurt reaprs stuff", [/quote]
BS. Hackett's exact words were "It took X to take down Sovereign". You have an exact cutscene that shows that, a) No Alliance ships were in the area, None were firing, c) Sovereign fell, something that shouldn't happen should his shields simply have gone now.

And all you have is "But the cutscene wasn't done properly! Derp!



[quote]the other readers will thank me for it.[/quote]
Yes, they definitely love you.




[quote]no.[/quote]
And again, explain how taking down the shields (without firing projectiles), makes a machine lose control of it's arms.


[quote]You have no way of knowing how long it would take.[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. I know that it takes more than six months.

A) Recover the Human Reaper

Isolate and decipher the technolodgy (Could very well be impossible)

C) Reverse engineer the technolodgy, adapt it to conventional standards.

D) Mass Produce technolodgy

E) Somehow plant it into the Alliance (you have to explain how that would be possible)

F) Recall every ship

G) Change parts for EVERY SINGLE SHIP in the Alliance Navy.

...right.

Not that the problem would lie there anyway, it's not as if, the Alliance is on the run, TIM is hunting you, Cerberus makes up for 40% of your enemies, and the fact that you have yet to point out a single bit of useful technolodgy within the base.



[quote]The Alliance is not alone.[/quote]
Oh, so they are not alone now, are they. Funny, I thought we were talking about human dominance.

Retrofitting every single ship in the galaxy would also take a few months. Cool.


[quote]And yes, using hit and run one could take down reapers one at a time.[/quote]

Problems with that statement: 

• It's not a hit and run because it would take time to defeat a single Reaper,
• You would only have a chance with a single Reaper and that is extremely debatable,
• You would have to have multiple fleets for that hit and run,
• Somehow force the Reaper not to call backup,
• Somehow not receive losses, since considering that the Alliance navy which is supposed to be impressive only has 200 ships, and it took a hit back when they attacked Sovereign.
• Be able to repeat the same strategy, with all of the above conditions multiple thousands of times.

Yeeeeah, no.



[quote]And at no point did  Iever seee a thousand reapers. I counted no more than a hundered, but this is irrelevant as we won't know the exact numbers untill ME3 comes out.[/quote]
I don't care what you saw, because the Reapers were still powering up when the angle changed, but it's not irrelevant at all, because as I said, it is said here that thousands alone are conquering Earth:

Reporter: "Doctor, how exactly are you defining on mass? Are we talking about hundrends of ships here?"

Scientist: "No, we are talking about thousands, actually."

[quote]And you fail to see the point ... bravo...[/quote]Yes, good for you. Maybe you didn't have a point.

You have yet to tell us what that awesome technolodgy that can be used in combination with conventional ones is.


All you have managed to say is "The possibilities are endless!11!one!"


[quote]Your argument is bogus.
So at first it didnt' have anything. Now it has anything, but you can't retrofit ship in time?

Great work. you replace one redicolous argument once the first one fails, wiht another one that fails jsut as miserably.[/quote]
It has some kind of metallic structure. It's obviously not as heavy as an exoskeleton (a huge part of which was located in the Council Chambers last time I checked). The only thing that it does is deflect AR rounds, not exactly impressive. It's definitely not new technolodgy. *yawn*

[quote]Hint - you DON'T nkow what tech is i nthe base +HR. You DON'T know how long it wil ltake to find something usefull and apply it.
Your'e m,akign assumptions based on NOTIHNG.[/quote]
Here's another hint; You are.

You are claiming that the possibilities are endless, and yet you can't think of a single bit of technolodgy. All you do are some constant "what ifs"

And my initial hypothesis has yet to be debunked. Even if the tech from the base makes a single ship as powerful as a Reaper, we are still outnumbered and outsmarted.

The CB does nothing to improve our odds, in no case.



[quote]Exactly how would you gauge that?
Do you perhaps now what informmation the HR got from those sensors? You fouind some terminal in-game that gave you that knowledge?

See tht AWACS? Doesn't look impressive to me. Let's ignore it...[/quote]
Basically, all we got was a big metallic structure firing towards our general direction, and missing pretty badly at times. Why a genetic storage box would have any useful sensor or why sensors will help us detect Reapers (Hint: They are bigger than dreadnaughts, you don't need a super duper sensor to detect them) is beyond me.



[quote]The principles behind the workings are important more than the gun itself.[/quote]
Nope, it's a DEW. It is either a laser or it works like the Thanix canon. And the Thanix canon was actually a main weapon.

[quote]And guns in-game are as powerfull as the difficulty sez they should be. Occulus cuts trough Normandy hull, yet once inside, it can't cut troug ha small container Shep is hiding behind. Explain their suddfen loss of power pls....

for hte love of God, stop using redicolous gameplay arguments....[/quote]
You think that that is impressive? You are kidding yourself, lasers, as DEWs, you can get past the shield of a ship. There is a reason why GARDIAN arrays can take fighters down with one shot. Because they get past their shields and their hull.

That technolodgy already exists, and on a better level. Next.





[quote]I have. Technology is like lego bricks. THINK about that for a second.

I'm not to blame you are only capable of assembling a police station following the blueprints and nothing else...[/quote]
Except that you have not provided a single lego brick and you are still forgetting that no matter the amount og lego bricks, we will always lose in conventional warfare.




[quote]Don't trust the trailers too much., they often show stuff that never appear in the game...[/quote]
BS argument, again.

They got it from the script of the trailer, which if a writer didn't writer, then the lead writer checked before the green light was given.

All you can see in-game is that the closest Reapers are several hundrend, when in the background new ones continue to power up, and then the angle changes to show that multiple others are powering up from a different direction.

If the trailer says that multiple thousand of Reapers are swarming over Europe and Asia (which Casey Hudson confirmed that they were later on an IGN interview session), then they are.


Oh, and according to you, how many ships do the allied navies have?







[quote]
[quote]Lets see them try do that if the galaxy really focuses on them. Cerberus surives because it's in the shadows and doesn't draw much attention to itself.
A few hunderd soldiers are insignificent next to the manpower and firepower of the alliance.[/quote]
That, a) Doesn't stop them from being an army, Releasing WMDs, c) Infiltrating the Alliance, d) Using guerilla tactics and attacking specific targets, e) Conducting political assasinations.[/quote]

[quote]a) a tiny army that will be crushed[/quote]
That's not how shock troopers or hit and run attacks work

[quote] which will triger a full-on galaxy hunt for them (and what Cerberus wouldn't do)[/quote]
They are already on a full-on galaxy hunt you know, and Retribution confirms that all the allied races need to be motivated with to take Cerberus down is intel on where their bases are hidden.


[quote]c) counter-intelligence[/quote]
Yes, what about it? They have already infiltrated the Alliance, and have done several moves to take on political posisitons.


[quote]d) see b[/quote]
And? They have attacked for example, the Migrant Fleet. And the Ascension base.

As long as they don't find where their bases are, they are OK with pissing important people off, again, read Retribution.



[quote]e) teye done 1 or 2 since teh begingi nof Cerberus. Oh yeah..that sure destroyed the Alliance..[/quote]
That's because they haven't made a move yet, because the time is not right.

They have already killed a minister, a Pope, a candidate, etc.






[quote]You said the Alliance has 360.00 soldiers. I demand a source for that rubbish.[/quote]
36000? What.





[quote]You don't need to blockade everything. Just those leading to your space.
[/quote]
Are you serious? Multiple relays can lead to a single system, let alone the nearby systems, let alone all systems of some importance. In the meantime, you leave your planet and colonies unguarded.

[quote]And the races combined do have over a thousand ships.[/quote]
Source.

And no, definitely not after ME3.



[quote]Sauce.[/quote]
A) Gavrug, Vallum War

A): Corporate forces held space superiority at all times, and yet they got their asses handed to them in ground war.

: The Hierarchy controlled space, bombarded every single military facility, and the seperatists still held the Dilulvian Wildlands until the ground campaign began.





[quote]No, they can't. This is redicolous.
That's like saiyng Bill Gates can start producing a navy that can rival the US fleet..and nobody would notice?
Not only wouldn't Cerberus be ableto support such a fleet, he wouldn't be able to build it.

Starships require shipyards and special materials. Cerberus barely managed to build 1 frigate.[/quote]
Source on barely? Shipyards? They have at least one. And more seeing how they constructed an entire fleet. Special materials? They can buy weapons from the black market, looks like they have the rest.

Civilian and military doesn't say much. They could perfectly copy/paste designs from the Alliance and take advantage of them, especially considering that the military part of the Alliance is in a very bad state after the Reaper invasion.

And as I said, they don't even need a fleet.





[quote]It doesn't.[/quote]
Right...

any reasons as to why?





[quote]Name those puppet states-. Adn then look into waht kind of nations they are, their pwoer, their stabiltiy and their leadership type.[/quote]
There have been plenty of puppet states with rigged elections over the past decades, I won't name them of course, or I will be banned, and don't even try to pull the stability card, not after the events of ME3.



[quote]And no, ti can't. You're making this sound like childs play. It's rubbish. Teh Alliance isn't some third-rate unstable little country with a petty dictator.[/quote]
After ME3? Even if they remain democratic and don't switch to martial law instead, they are extremely unstable. They won't have much of an army, for starters.



[quote]It's a strong, powerfull union where decision are made in a parliament.. with hunderds of members. You'd need to get most of hte parliament to your side. Which is redicolous to even thin you'd ever be able to do.[/quote]

...

I hope that you are either joking or you are talking about 2185 and not post-2186.


[quote]You'd think the internal securtiy agencies of the Alliance do nothing? Tehy they will jsut let you do that? Tehy there wouldnt' be a investigation into it? That you could honestly talk people so easily into war, when war means loosing so much (economy, market, political standing in the galaxy)?

Fantasy..pure, fantasy...[/quote]
Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Close your ears and eyes and do that.

Smear campaigns? Done.
Bribes? Done.
High-status political assasinations? Done.
Fake footage? Possible.

Didn't see much of an investigation out of that.




[quote]Take a look out of the window and see the word for what it is, and not what you tihnk or want it to be.[/quote]
You have civilian murderers and child torturers in the parliament? Good for you, I don't.

The sheer idiocy doesn't stop there and you go ahead and say that that is what democracy is supposed to be. You should ask for a refund by the Department of Education.




[quote]A) You're arguing semantics. You know I mean military fleet.[/quote]
Same bull. They can and will if needed build a military fleet if they haven't already, no matter how big it is, it doesn't really matter.

[quote] No, ti's not enough.[/quote]
Except that the codex considers them as an army and so does the dictionary, and shock units can very well fight a war.

[quote]Shipyards are not allowed to build militry-grade ship for anyone but the nation/race. Cerberus doesn't have shipyards. They barely amanged to put together 1 frigate, and they had to hide it by ordering thousands of parts from thousands of suppliers, to avoid raising suspicion.[/quote]Well, thanks for the quick laugh I suppose. What is not allowed and what Cerberus does are pretty far away, last time I checked.

And Cerberus already has at least one shipyard as you reaffirm in the same paragraph, while using an unsourced but melodramatic "barely."


[quote]They can't.[/quote]Source? Where does it say that Cerberus can't support their troops?
[quote]The game. They don't have enough personall and not enough money. A few billions of income might sound like a lot, but is pittance comparatively to how much you need for a fleet.[/b][/quote]You are still not identifying your source specifically and pulling things out of your ass. Not enough personnel? They do in ME3, enough for a commando army, money? Income? Where does it say that all of these front companies make a few billions?
[quote]If you actually thought a bit about the situation ,you'd have never posted the argumetn in the first palce[/quote]You apparently have no idea what the situation is. You speak out of your ass about Cerberus' resources and act as if the Alliance will be stable or powerful post-ME3. 


I won't even touch the fact where you say that the CIA didn't establish any puppet governments in the past decades.





[quote]
[quote]Peacefully? You don't. Reapers don't seem like the negotiating type.

For beyond...the same as I wrote above.[/quote]

You accept then, that the domination of the beyond has to be violent?[/quote]

No. Why should it?[/quote]
"Peacefully? You don't. Reapers don't seem like the negotiating type.

For beyond...the same as I wrote above."

Okay.

Why should it? Because the means are the same, a very specific (potential) WMD called the Collector Base.



[quote]Except the 10 other nations will prevent that by interfereing with THEIR black ops groups.[/quote]
10 other nations don't exist. 3 do. None of them are powerful after the invasion, the turians even lose their homeworld in the process. 

Interfere? How? And how would they know what was going on?


[quote]and yeah..becoming elected.rofl...[/quote]
...you should probably read the SB Dossiers.


[quote]Time, energy and bodies.
That's of course, assuming you can control them in the first place.[/quote]
Tell that to Cerberus in ME: Invasion.

Time and energy is bull, if they work anything like the Dragon's Teeth. Bodies? Easy. Cerberus has had several death camps, creating new ones should be easy.



[quote]That's not a proper army either.
Omega is pretty much a lawless station, and taking some gangsters by surprise is hardly impressive.[/quote]
It isn't? How would it be different for, let's say a listening post? Or a colony? And eventually, when the numbers are enough, stations and major colonies?




[quote]They don't. How do you know Cerberus didn't do extensive check on them before approaching them?[/quote]
Extensive check? Let's take a look, that's not really what you said is it? You said that they can't quickly acquire new operatives. And yeah, I am sure that the check for Gabby was extensive. Or Chakwas.


[quote]Writers can make stupid mistakes too...[/quote]
Or maybe it's part of the plot and you don't want to accept it.



[quote]And by hte time mechs get into action, methinks Cerberus is beyond caring about secrecy.[/quote]
Well, thanks for contradicting and proving yourself wrong.





[quote]Erm...no..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics
AND

http://en.wikipedia....ry_logistics [/quote]You should probably read what you link.

First Page: Logistics involves the integration of information, transportation, inventory, warehousing, material handling, and packaging, and often security. 

Second Page: Design, development, acquisition, storage, distribution, maintenance, evacuation, and disposition of materiel.Transport of personnel.Acquisition or construction, maintenance, operation, and disposition of facilities.Acquisition or furnishing of services.Medical and health service support.[/list]Totally not money and what it can buy you, guys. You need umm...stuff to transport and furnis your troops. yeah, ...stuff, that isn't bought by money... and doesn't have to do with their management.



[quote]I didn't accept anything.Your'e misconstructing and lying again.
And no, I don't recall him ever saying that, espcially not in those words...[/quote]
Say what, out of this:

"Other than the fact that you accepted that the "beyond the Reapers" part would require a violent response? Or that he actually mentioned dominating the Reapers as well?
Or that he believes that humans have a rightful position far above being one of the most powerful Council races?"

?

The first one is from ME2, the other one is from the opening chapters of Ascension and the ending of Evolution.





[quote]You're not adressing my point at all...[/quote]
Yes, yes, I am.

TIM is not out to protect humanity's interest, he is about to place humanity at it's "rightful place", which happens to be above the aliens.




[quote]Your logic, that a transport can match a purpose-designed military warship..is...stunning.[/quote]
Nice try. Actually no, not a nice try:

"Transport ships are used for transport, why exactly would they not have military ships? And where is the evidence that these ships are not mounted with weapons?"

Try replying that again, a) You don't know the capabilities of those ships, They could very well have military ships as well.


[quote]Doesn't change a darn thing really..[/quote]
Horrible evasion, again:

"For starters, BlackWater doesn't have a damn political part, and no sponsored candidates."

They can't take over because they have no motive and no one to take over.


[quote]
And as I said, no, they cannot control the Alliance.
No, they cannot take on the Alliance.[/quote]
You have still to give any reason as to why, so I'll just repost it:

"
Brilliant and eloquent rebuttals aside, I'll repost my argument until you debunk it:
"And how will they do that? The remains of their forces are on the run very early into the Reaper invasion. And as I said, they could very well control the Alliance if they wish."

Especialy the part about the remaining Alliance forces being on the run.



[quote]Not easy. 
If Ceberus can be indoctrinated, so can Asari..or Krogan.[/quote]
Who says that Cerberus got indoctrinated? Shepard thinks so.

And the asari and krogan are an entire species, last time I checked.

[quote]If Saren can join the repaers, so can other turians, including their leadership. Or Asari.

EVERYONE can betray you.[/quote]
Not much point in indoctrinating the leadership when their armies are not under the influence. Or when you actually attack them.

[quote]And the last two lines have absolutely no relevance or impact whatsoever.[/quote]
You wish.

The asari and krogan only have motive to use weapons against the Reapers, they don't have or will have to resist arrest.

The asari and krogan governments aren't Cerberus. They don't abduct children or randomly attack the Migrant Fleet. The only aggression that the krogan show is traditional and it's not towards humans.



[quote]In which case Cerberus has even LESS chance of accomplishin anything.[/quote]
In comparison to a scenario where the Reaper wins and the Alliance dies? Wat.


[quote]
[quote]

You cannot prove to me that alien hate and desire to destroyall other alien is a common trait among cerberus memebers. Heck, you cannot even prove that conquering/enslaving aliesn is Cerberuses goal.[/quote]

You are still missing the point. You claimed that the Lazarus Project members are common Cerberus employees. 
"The Lazarus Cell consists of only 24 members, multiple of which having either been recruited recently or are familiar to Shepard, and their leaders support Shepard for destroying the base."
Also, Cerberus is an ultranationalist group, which supports that humans have a rightful position over the aliens (national socialism). That enough?[/quote]

[quote]No. You simply cannot prove any of your assurtions.[/quote]
You are bad with evasions. Time to learn it.

-Multiple operatives in the Lazarus Cell have been recruited recently. (ME2)
-Multiple operatives in the Lazarus Cell are familiar to Shepard. (ME2)
-Miranda supports Shepard for destroying the base and can quit from Cerberus if she is with you in the Reaper fight. (ME2)
-Jacob doesn't trust TIM and supports you for destroying the base. (ME2)
-Cerberus is a prohuman survivalist and ultranationalist group. (Evolution, Ascension, Retribution, ME1, ME2)
-TIM supports that there is a rightful position for humans. Over the aliens. (Evolution, Ascension)


[quote]He doesn't have to. He can assume .that's enough.[/quote]
Uh, so he assumes that the Reapers are a minor threat compared to what is coming?

And he also assumes that the CB will make humanity prevail over the Reapers.

And over the even greater threat.

You alone admitted that CB by itself won't make humanity prevail over the Reapers, right?





[quote]Because the camera was in their ass[/QUOTE]Cute. But nonsensical. Even if they came in range for dramatic effect, that doesn't explain why they retreated and didn't fire from back then.

 [quote]IIRC, those are missiles. The thin, extreemly fast moving thingies are mass  accelerators. [/quote]Do I really need to tell you that if it is shaped like this, then they are not torpedos? They don't exactly have a propulsion end. No, they are projectiles.

[quote]How would you know? If hte feedback from a destroyed avatar can mess sovereign up, then so can his shields fizzling out. [/quote]Except that if he lost control of the avatar, all of his systems were overwhelmed, because it affected the processing unit. The shields are on a seperate system, like all ships. Unless you claim that the Reapers are technolodgically inferior to conventional ships.

[quote]2) Why did the Alliance stop firing if they didn't realize that the shields were down until the Normandy reported it?


-'And well..ti's a cutsce that wasn't done propery..' Let me get this straight. It doesn't work with your theory and therefore it wasn't done properly?  Real mature.[/quote]Oh and I see that you didn't answer those.



[quote]I disagree. You think CB is useless. I know it's not.
Your'e facepalm-worthy.[/quote]Oh, you "know" it? Who told you so? 
Was it the guy who is attacking you for half of the game in ME3?



[quote]Husks have limbs and manipulatrs. Salvees and indoctrinates alines cna build stuff FOR the reapers. Kinda like the collectors did. Which kinda answers the belwo two questions too.
[/quote]Uh, not it doesn't, because that's not what I asked you. How can you use conventioal technolodgy to recharge the Reapers.
You also didn't answer these:
[quote]Unless you actually destroy the mechanism properly and permanent[/quote][quote]
[/quote][quote]With what materials, where do they come from? And with what energy? Do they have infinite energy? [/quote]


[quote]
[quote]
[quote]If yoI have said what? Your argument makes no sense. IT was YOU claim that you cna create reaper-killing super-weapons with current tech. What you smokin?[/quote]
Oh dear. Your actual quote is: "If you can create super-weapons with normal tech, then you can create EVEN BETTER super-weapons with reaper tech. Hence, researching the CB is not useless."
And you explicitly said that you can not compare the "normals" of one race to another when these two have made no contact.
You actually quote it, lol.[/quote]

[quote]Waht are you smoking?[/quote]You already used that line, it doesn't work, pal.
[quote] And why are you fishing my quotes for something you can use out of context?
Do you even know what I was referencing with that? And you didn't even quote me properly.

not only is that a pathetic attempt, but a rather sloppy one too.[/quote]Heh, that's the entire quote, and you quoted yourself, all I did was to copy/paste the quote again.
Out of context? You state: ""If you can create super-weapons with normal tech, then you can create EVEN BETTER super-weapons with reaper tech. "
No superweapons were created with normal tech. Unless you call the Klendangon race's tech normal, which makes you a hypocrite for calling Someone With Mass over it.




[quote]I have and it makess no sense and it relies on may assumptions.

1) that the missiels are too small for reaper point-defense. Nonsense[/quote]First of, they are undetectable, extremely small and fast, point-defence weapons wouldn't necessarily catch them even if they were detected.
[quote]2) Taht cloacking tech can even be minimized to work o na missile[/quote]It already can to work on armor, making it smaller isn't the issue, the opposite is. The science behind that technolodgy confirms that.
[quote]2) that using cloaking tech doesn't make missiles probitevly expensive, thus rendering your plan moot.
and a probably a few more I've missed.[/quote]Source? You have cloaking tech used multiple times throughout ME2, and considering that a single missile is enough to take out a Reaper, cost is not an issue. 


[quote]Nope, trough the whole conversation, there isn't even a single hint of that theory of yours.[/quote]What entire conversation? All he says that it took multiple fleets to take down a single Reaper. There's a small sentence and that's it.
Unless you claim that Reapers are technolodgically inferior to conventional ships and that they are disabled once you stop their shields.




[quote]I'm a bit tired and too sleepy right now to asnwer the rest of this drivel..

[/quote]
Yeah, sure you are.

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
I think we're having a communication breakdown. I never said Saren embodies the Council; what I said, was he embodies the institutional racism on display by them. It is a character trait that reflects and underscores one of the themes in the game; it's not to say that the Council has officially tasked him with (and condoned) being their highly racist spokesturian. 

This is about Saren and his relationship to the Council, both as a Spectre and as a component of the overarching narrative. It's not about NIhlus. Nihlus is immaterial to the subject at hand.

Then that's irrelevant to the argument because it can't be proven right or wrong.

 No, it's not racist. I never said it was. It is however indicative of a willingness to tolerate and even in some cases (Anderson's Spectre evaluation) handwave Saren's, ahem...less than savory methods, because he gets results that are beneficial to them. 

It never ceases to amuse me how people seem to believe the Council's own BS about being this paragon of morality and egalitarianism. They're as ruthless and pragmatic as any in the galaxy, even Cerberus, and quite a bit moreso than some. 

The Council is definitely renegade, but that doesn't make them racist. Handwave Saren's methods? When? When did Saren tell them how he worked?

[marshalleck]

alperez wrote...

As for the 2 examples you give well again its a collective group making those choices and having to live with the consequences of them, 

Collective decision-making doesn't absolve any or all participants of guilt.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 02:12 .

[Phaedon]

marshalleck wrote...
Attempting to levy heavy sanctions against the Alliance for the Sidon incident, while all but admitting they are all running their own covert AI research programs.

I don't remember that.

And developing AIs with permission is a-okay.

"Synthetic Insights, Ltd.[/b] is one of only four corporations licensed by the Citadel Council to develop artificial intelligence."

Humanity agreed on some rules, failed to follow them and had to be sanctioned.

Refusing to render aid to human colonies under attack by geth, despite having strongly encouraged the SA to colonize worlds in the traverse.

You mean Saren. And they offer you a reason, they are not going to send fleets on the edge of the Trasverse or they'll cause a war with the Terminus.

Refusing to investigate or render aid to colonial abductions by the Collectors.

None of which are Alliance sponsored and all of which are in the Terminus.

etc. etc. I'm sure I could add to this if I dug out the novels and spent some time flipping through them

Well, do so, then.

[SandTrout]

Phaedon wrote...

The Council is definitely renegade, but that doesn't make them racist. Handwave Saren's methods? When? When did Saren tell them how he worked?

Ever read 'Revalation'? Even if Saren doesn't tell them everything he does, some of it has been hard not to notice. They don't ask either, even though they hold responsibility for every action of every Specter by virtue of asigning them that title, privilages, and responsibilities.

[alperez]

SandTrout wrote...
*snip

]

I fear this argument may head in the wrong direction but needs must, we have 2 problems namely (al qaeda as an analogy doesn't rightly fit) and (real world scenarios into mass effect scenarios can be misinterpreted),

If an organisation such as Al Qaeda(cerberus)  with a particular idealogy was in possession of vastly superior technology (Collector base) then surely whatever goal that organisation may have would be that much more easily attainable.

So we have an organisation with a set goal and thats been shown to disregard whatever the cost is to acheive that goal, suddenly being in a position where that goal is within reach, could that not influence a change from secret to overt?

Secondly, if the US (substituting for galaxy here so bear with me) was fighting an enemy of equal or bigger size with superior technology say china (subsituting for reapers) and was either in the process of fighting that enemy or recovering in the aftermath of the fight.

Would it not make Al qaeda's (cerberus) goal of making thier idealogy the dominant one that much easier if they suddenly came along with vastly superior tech?

Now first of all let me be clear i'm not saying cerberus are equivelent of Al qaeda (just continuing on with it as an analogy) and secondly while we may disagree or not with our perceptions of what cerberus ultimate goal is, i'm just trying to portray it as if the goal is more akin to my view of dominance than someone elses.

Basically its hypothetically if cerberus wanted to dominate the galaxy completely.

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...


Collective decision-making doesn't absolve any or all participants of guilt.

There's a big diifference between guilt and racism.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Attempting to levy heavy sanctions against the Alliance for the Sidon incident, while all but admitting they are all running their own covert AI research programs.

I don't remember that.

And developing AIs with permission is a-okay.

Maybe you should dig out the books then. Ambassador Goyle pretty resoundingly calls the whole Council out on their charade. 

And yes, developing AI is okay with permission. The permission of the turians, the asari, and the salarians. Those who have the most to gain and preserve by withholding that permission to others. Funny conicidence, that. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[marshalleck]

alperez wrote...

marshalleck wrote...


Collective decision-making doesn't absolve any or all participants of guilt.

There's a big diifference between guilt and racism.

When the cost is the deaths or sterilization of billions, I don't see how the difference matters. 

[Phaedon]

SandTrout wrote...
Ever read 'Revalation'? Even if Saren doesn't tell them everything he does, some of it has been hard not to notice. They don't ask either, even though they hold responsibility for every action of every Specter by virtue of asigning them that title, privilages, and responsibilities.

Don't ask? Saren sends reports. Some of what he says in there will be fiction. But he'll never want to give a negative impression to the Council.

marshalleck wrote...
Maybe you should dig out the books then. Ambassador Goyle pretty resoundingly calls the whole Council out on their charade. 

And yes, developing AI is okay with permission. The permission of the turians, the asari, and the salarians. Those who have the most to gain and preserve by withholding that permission to others. Funny conicidence, that. 

Sure. Would you give permission to anyone, or someone who has been in the industry or the intergalactic community for a long time and has gained your confidence?

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...


Except they don't improve the interests of the collective. How have krogan benefited from Council rule? Quarians? Batarians? Volus? Elcor? 

The only ones that benefit are turian, asari, salarian. The rest remain in a precariously neutral limbo at best, and lucky they aren't extinct at worst. 

The collective is galatic security, space, the council races, the council themselves, pratically everyone.

Of course the 3 main races benefit more than the others, but the others also benefit to a lesser degree.

The krogans are a seperate issue and its because of their own actions that the council felt forced into doing what they did, the quarians again the same although slightly different.

[SandTrout]

I fear this argument may head in the wrong direction but needs must, we have 2 problems namely (al qaeda as an analogy doesn't rightly fit) and (real world scenarios into mass effect scenarios can be misinterpreted),

I agree 100% I never thought it was a particularly good analogy, but it was better than the NVA one that was being used.

If an organisation such as Al Qaeda(cerberus) with a particular idealogy was in possession of vastly superior technology (Collector base) then surely whatever goal that organisation may have would be that much more easily attainable.

Again, full agreement.

Secondly, if the US (substituting for galaxy here so bear with me) was fighting an enemy of equal or bigger size with superior technology say china (subsituting for reapers) and was either in the process of fighting that enemy or recovering in the aftermath of the fight.

Would it not make Al qaeda's (cerberus) goal of making thier idealogy the dominant one that much easier if they suddenly came along with vastly superior tech?

Would it make it easier? Certainly. Would in be able to make a sudden rise to dominance? Debatable, probably not due to lack of numbers and the probability that the surviving power would still have vastly superior numbers and logistical support.

Now first of all let me be clear i'm not saying cerberus are equivelent of Al qaeda (just continuing on with it as an analogy) and secondly while we may disagree or not with our perceptions of what cerberus ultimate goal is, i'm just trying to portray it as if the goal is more akin to my view of dominance than someone elses.

Basically its hypothetically if cerberus wanted to dominate the galaxy completely.

Again, we agree on the poor analogy. The one that I replaced was far worse, though, IMO. I don't think I have much to argue about, overall here.

Modifié par SandTrout, 01 août 2011 - 02:22 .

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...


 When the cost is the deaths or sterilization of billions, I don't see how the difference matters. 

Maybe because your arguing 2 seperate points.

What the cost is does fit with your argument about guilt, it doesn't however with what your original argument was about, racism.

Its not racist to cause deaths or steralise the krogans, its immoral and questionable yes, but racist no.