3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

SandTrout wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Well,we all saw in ww2 when a sleeping giant awakens.I can't imagine what a full scale Earth military industrial complex would be able to crank out with that kind of tech.

To be honest, Earth is occupied, and though I think the shipyards are mostly out-system, I'm sure that a lot of necessary manufacturing that would be required will be denied to us.

However, the Turians, Salarians(I want to see one of their ships!), and Asari are more spread out and more likely to have decentralized industry, thus allowing the necessary production.

Actually since to get to earth you have to go through arcturus station... (The Alliances military and government center...) and Earth, the planet with the majority of human population is currently getting harvested by hundreds of reapers, I would say the Alliance fleet is out of the game if they had not managed to escape somehow.

No sleeping Giant is waiting here, just a bunch of torn up fleets that need to be coordinated. Palaven has fallen. The salarian homeworld is being attacked by reapers, Thessia's status is unkown (although they do not have a standing army)... Its going to take the culmination of all the remaining resources, not the activiating of to stand a chance.

[SandTrout]

Nashiktal wrote...
Actually since to get to earth you have to go through arcturus station... (The Alliances military and government center...) and Earth, the planet with the majority of human population is currently getting harvested by hundreds of reapers, I would say the Alliance fleet is out of the game if they had not managed to escape somehow.

No sleeping Giant is waiting here, just a bunch of torn up fleets that need to be coordinated. Palaven has fallen. The salarian homeworld is being attacked by reapers, Thessia's status is unkown (although they do not have a standing army)... Its going to take the culmination of all the remaining resources, not the activiating of to stand a chance.

The Turians are already in the process of a military buildup in ME2, and they undoubtably have more industrial centers than just Palaven. Even if the Asari don't have a standing army. they are still an economic powerhouse that can be used in order to provide the material. Also, and I man this in all seriousness, we cannot forget the Volus. Those little guys are all about economics, so they probably have significant amounts of heavy industry as well.

In WW2, car factories were converted to tank and airplane factories. Just because a nation isn't currently geared for military production does not mean it cannot be made so in relatively short order.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

How many ships did we loose to Sovereign?

I never counted how many we saw blow up on screen. Several though. That doesn't acount for how many ships we might have lost off-screen.

The point is this: Sovereign did so much damage to the entire FLEET attacking it that they wanted to RETREAT.

Yes, and my point is that in the face of anihilation of our species, those will be considered acceptable losses.

[Inverness Moon]

ThePwener wrote...

Well, now that we know that Cerberus isn't indoctrinated, then the Base is a go. We'll obviously use it once TIM is deaded. HUMAN DOMINANCE!!!!

Wait, did I miss some news?

[SandTrout]

@Inverness Moon,

Cerberus have been stated to make up about 40% of the enemies in the game, and Shepard has stated in certain trailers/demos that the reason that Cerberus troopers are attacking your squad is because they are indoctrinated.

How much of Shepard's statement is in-character speculation is the matter of much in-forum speculation.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Yes, and my point is that in the face of anihilation of our species, those will be considered acceptable losses.

Well I agree. Anything is an acceptable loss if it means the species survives. I was never contesting that.

I was actually getting at the fact that if we can't drastically improve our kill to loss ratio against the Reapers we are not going to survive.

That is your estimate. Mine differs.

[Ieldra]

[quote]Sisterofshane wrote...

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

I have been arguing from two premises:
(A) Our primary objective is to defeat the Reapers
( Survival of intelligent life in the galaxy is more desirable than sticking to a moral principle.
[/quote]

How very Machiavellian of you.  Does the end always justify the means?  Silly enough, the ending of Machivelli's famous book, "The Prince" has a very grim fate for those who practice this.
Machiavelli eventually notices that the very use of such tactics and thinking will ultimately leave said "ruler" vulnerable to the very tactics that placed him into power.[/quote]
The means justified depend on the end. I say that survival of intelligent organic life in the galaxy justifies almost any means.
You may, of course, disagree with the premise. The negation of premise ( would mean: (~ "Sticking to a moral principle is at least as important as the survival of intelligent organic life in the galaxy". 

Now, here's my question to you: Do you really believe this? Or is this just grasping at straws to avoid conceding the point that it might be the best course of action to let Cerberus have the base? Because, well, that's the vibe I get when I hear this argument: use any, really any justification to avoid having to concede that point, as if keeping your hands clean with regard to Cerberus was the most important thing in the universe, more important even than defeating the Reapers.
On the other hand, if you really believe (~, then we have a fundamental disagreement in our value systems. In that case, I'll walk away from this debate and see you hand the galaxy over to the Reapers to avoid helping Cerberus.

[quote]So, a supposition for you, if we do find what we need from the Collector Base, but at the cost of a Galaxy now dominated by Humans and Cerberus, does not this very act potentially lead to our very downfall anyway?  Then what was the point in defeating the Reapers themselves?[/quote]
The point of defeating the Reapers is survival. We'll deal with the fallout after we've secured that. BTW, in which way is a galaxy dominated by humans and Cerberus a downfall? I agree it is a less than optimal state of things, but exactly what is so downfallish about it?

[quote]
[quote] It was my intention to show which arguments will ultimately fail as justification for destroying the base.[/quote]

Just because an argument is morally based and you do not see the reasoning behind it, does not mean the argument itself has failed.  Just that you have merely come to hold a different opinion (based on a different type of morality).[/quote]
Again, you may disagree with premise (. If you accept it, then add the facts, the conclusions follow from it.  If you don't accept it, then be prepared for handing the galaxy to the Reapers because well, not helping Cerberus is so much more important.... /sarcasm-


[quote][quote]
Even so, the reasoning for keeping the base is contained in my refutation of the arguments for destroying the base. It goes as follows:

(1) We are grasping at straws for a means to defeat the Reapers. We have no idea how that might be done.[/quote]

We as *the player* have no idea how that may be done.  I think that may be important to argue here.  This is NOT because the devs have told us that this decision will not come back to haunt us in regards to the ending of ME 3, but rather because the entire story is being told from the main view point of the protaganist, which is Shepard.  To say that no other organization or person has been able to find a way from what we know of as Shepard's view of the universe is just arrogant.  Of course it is safer to assume that giving the base to TIM is the only logical answer, but it's not the only concievable one.[/quote]
We know what Shepard knows. And Shepard doesn't know how to defeat the Reapers. How often must I repeat the obvious: the argument that "there is no evidence that there is no other way" has zero weight unless you can produce evidence of another way. If not, it's just a baseless assumption. The important part is that you decide based on Shepard's knowledge. And Shepard knows what Sovereign was and Shepard can estimate what a fleet of Reapers might be able to do. It is a reasonable expecation that no one knows how to defeat them.

[quote][quote]
(3) Conclusion: to prevent that, we need to either close the technology gap, or obtain some other kind of understanding that will allow us to exploit an aspect of the Reapers to our advantage. 

(4) At the moment, the best chance of getting knowledge about the Reapers in order to do either is in a place where one was to be built, namely the Collector base. It is the best chance because the base is the *only* such place we know of. If you disagree with that, you will have to present a better place to obtain the knowledge.[/quote]

This, as I said before, is *assuming* that this is our best chance.  This has yet to be proven. Knowledge of the enemies technology never worked before (think Protheans).  We also have to utilize other assets in order to stand a chance to defeat the Reapers.  We need to unite the galaxy and come up with some sort of defensive strategy *quick*, because when ME 3 starts, the Reapers are already here.  Perhaps letting TIM have the base makes sense now, but who's to say that the resources (money, manpower) needed to analyze the base would not be of better use elsewhere? [/quote]
As *I* said before, it is the best chance to obtain that knowledge, because it is the only chance that we know of at the moment. If you want to contest that, present a LIKELY alternative!. Yet again (*sigh*): "There is no evidence that there isn't another chance" has zero weight unless you can present a likely candidate for another place or person to obtain it. We need to do all those other things, yes, but that was never mutually exclusive with saving the base. We need to muster every conceivable resource.
As for making sense now: we have to make the decision now. Should it happen that the resources are better spent elsewhere, then we can take them elsewhere then. But if no such opportunity manifests, then we'd have wasted the only chance we had by destroying the base.

[quote]And, say TIM puts all his eggs into one basket and dedicates everything to analyze the base and turns up with nothing? (We know this to be possible because of all the resources he moved into resurrecting ONE person to go up against the collectors).  Then in hindsight, we will all feel a little foolish that our resources weren't put to better use(building up the size of fleet, upgrading the fleet with existing proven tech such as Thannix and EDI).  Heck, forget feeling foolish, we'll all be dead!  Not a risk I'm willing to take.[/quote]
TIM does not finance the Alliance fleet. Nor does he finance the other species' fleets. It is a false dichotomy to claim that upgrading the allied' species fleets can't be done at the same time as studying the base. And if you want TIM to spend his resources elsewhere, yet again: Where exactly? "There is no evidence that there isn't another place" has zero weight unless you can present a likely candidate for another place or person to obtain it. If you cannot, yet again, you are making a bet against fate.

[quote][quote]
(5) What Cerberus will or will not do with the base is insufficient as a moral argument for destroying the base, because the Reapers are the greater evil even if we assume that Cerberus will wipe out every species but humans. In fact it works the other way round: as long as we don't have the slightest inkling of a better way to gain that understanding, we are morally obliged to take the opportunity and keep the base even at the cost of Cerbnerus doing something horrible with it. Disagreeing with this means disagreeing with premise ( aboive.[/quote]

On this we can agree.  It really shouldn't matter with the Reapers knocking down our door.  Even if it leads to the eventual distruction of certain species, allowing organic life to continue and breaking the cycle of extinction is too important to ignore.
But I think that you forget that the possibility of ones' allies turning around and attacking is very demoralizing to other species.  In fact, they may not want to stand up and fight alongside us if they think that we might stab them in the back.  And as I said earlier, it doesn't matter if we have the tech from the base -- we stand no chance against the Reapers if most of the galaxy isn't united in this fight. [/quote]
It works the other way round as well: it doesn't matter if the galaxy is united. If we don't get either a tech upgrade or some other important piece of knowledge that makes a difference, we will stand no chance. Study the base *and* upgrade the fleets if possible. Do a lot of other diplomatic stuff. Shepard is good at that. Have the quarians and the geth make peace. Find some compromise regarding the genophage. Whatever. There is a whole galaxy of resources you can bring to bear if you play it right, completely independent from TIM's resources. Hell, if you don't trust Cerberus, give a copy of the Reaper IFF to the Council and the Alliance and tell them to dislodge Cerberus from the base and study it themselves. (Heh.....how much would you bet that exactly that is what we're called on to do in ME3)

A war economy can do impressive things: did you know that at the height of WWII, the US produced a warplane every 90 minutes? In *one* factory? What it can't do is technological development going beyond the scope of currently known physical principles. That needs either time - or a source of knowledge. 

[quote]The biggest hole in your theory is that you base the outcome of an entire war on only one piece of the puzzle.  Knowledge is not the only thing that can definitively save us from the Reaper Invasion.  If this was the case, then the Salarians would be able to conquer this war all by themselves because they are the most gifted when it comes to winning wars just based upon intelligence.  Knowledge of one's enemy is important, but it isn't the only thing that we will need to worry about when it comes down to defeating the Reapers.
So if one doesn't feel the need to foreswear their moral obligation in order to beat the Reapers, it wouldn't be the end of times.[/quote]
Not exactly. What I am saying is this: we should base our actions on the reasonable expectation that either a tech upgrade of some other piece of knowledge about the Reapers is a necessary, if not sufficient, precondition to winning the war. That it is not enough on its own, that uniting the galaxy or at least a significant part of it is nececssary as well, that I have never contested. What I do contest is this: that we can win against the Reapers without substantial research into them. If we can't, then we cannot afford to throw the only place away we know of where such research can be done.

If you are confident that we can face ten thousand Sovereigns with no new knowledge or a tech upgrade and win, well, I don't know how you can, honestly. That's a bet weighing a moral principle against the death of all intelligent life in the galaxy. How would you feel if faced with ultimate defeat, and the knowledge of not having done everything you can to make survival possible? Would you still feel proud of having stuck to your principles then? Mental inflexibility is not a virtue, you know. It is the hallmark of insanity. 

If faced with defeat, knowing I did not do everything I could've done to ensure survival, I would think: this may be my fault. I may have sacrificed the life of the galaxy on the altar of my moral principles. I would not feel proud of that. If you would, then I'm glad not to live in your Mass Effect timeline.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 août 2011 - 08:47 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Exactly lotion,which is why you can't say "If you blow it up you lose".

True, altough that is the most likely outcome.

Possibly,but it isn't a fact and therefore has no place.

That it is the most likely outcome is a fact. And that is not metagaming. It has a place.

Its like you trying to walk over an old wire and me going "that wire is unlikely to support your weight. If you go out there it will probaly snap" and you going "it's only a probability, therefore it should have no impact on my decision making."

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 août 2011 - 10:32 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Here's my short argument for keeping the Base, have to go now so I can't really go into greater detail about it.

Basically:

• We've got no advantage in terms of Reaper study, we're going in blind.
• Should we win, regardless of what we've done with the Base, the galaxy is going to be littered with Reaper technology.
• We know the base contains Collector technology at the very least. (Assuming it has nothing else of value)

This leaves me with...

Scenario: You kept the Base, it's technology proved valuable but you still lost the war.
Result: Nothing, you're dead. Nobody cares if you've kept the base or not as anybody who might've bothered is dead.

Scenario: You blew up the Base, you don't have the technology and you lose the war.
Result: Everybody's dead.

Scenario: You kept the Base, it's technology proved valuable and you won the war. CB Technology was necessary.
Result: The galaxy is saved, Cerberus is empowered for a brief moment while everybody else is studying Reaper remains. Humans have an advantage through early research.

Scenario: You blew up the Base, you don't have the technology and you won the war. CB Technology was unnecessary.
Result: The galaxy is saved, everybody is studying Reaper technology. Human researchers have as much of an advantage as anyone else when studying, Cerberus (if still around) studies it behind the scenes anyway though won't have a headstart.

Scenario: You kept the Base, it's technology proved valuable and you won the war. CB technology was unnecessary.
Result: The galaxy is saved, you've empowered Cerberus once again for a brief while when everybody is examining the remains. Do you think the lives possibly saved from the base's technology is worth the lives that Cerberus could possibly claim?

Scenario: You blew up the Base, you don't have the technology and you lost the war because CB Technology was necessary.
Result: Everybody dies.

Ect, you get the point.

Worst case scenario (in Shepard's mind from what we've seen) is that an isolated Cerberus research facility (as no other facility knows of the other's existence) consisting of 20-40 individuals is indoctrinated (It doesn't make sense how TIM could be indoctrinated with the way Cerberus operates from what we've been presented so far in the game).

Balancing risk / reward, I decided keeping the Base was the greater alternative to blowing it up. Cerberus might not be too trustworthy, though they've devoted years and billions of credits to defeat the Reapers and they don't have galactic extinction as one of their goals. Therefore, I view them as an ally in the upcoming Reaper invasion.

Good post. I concur with your assemsment.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...
This...
I don't even know how to respond to this...
*Goes cross-eyed*

What did you do to the formating?
My post is perfectly readable..you quoting me..is not...

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Here's my short argument for keeping the Base, have to go now so I can't really go into greater detail about it.

Basically:

• We've got no advantage in terms of Reaper study, we're going in blind.
• Should we win, regardless of what we've done with the Base, the galaxy is going to be littered with Reaper technology.
• We know the base contains Collector technology at the very least. (Assuming it has nothing else of value)

This leaves me with...

Scenario: You kept the Base, it's technology proved valuable but you still lost the war.
Result: Nothing, you're dead. Nobody cares if you've kept the base or not as anybody who might've bothered is dead.

Scenario: You blew up the Base, you don't have the technology and you lose the war.
Result: Everybody's dead.

Scenario: You kept the Base, it's technology proved valuable and you won the war. CB Technology was necessary.
Result: The galaxy is saved, Cerberus is empowered for a brief moment while everybody else is studying Reaper remains. Humans have an advantage through early research.

Scenario: You blew up the Base, you don't have the technology and you won the war. CB Technology was unnecessary.
Result: The galaxy is saved, everybody is studying Reaper technology. Human researchers have as much of an advantage as anyone else when studying, Cerberus (if still around) studies it behind the scenes anyway though won't have a headstart.

Scenario: You kept the Base, it's technology proved valuable and you won the war. CB technology was unnecessary.
Result: The galaxy is saved, you've empowered Cerberus once again for a brief while when everybody is examining the remains. Do you think the lives possibly saved from the base's technology is worth the lives that Cerberus could possibly claim?

Scenario: You blew up the Base, you don't have the technology and you lost the war because CB Technology was necessary.
Result: Everybody dies.

Ect, you get the point.

Worst case scenario (in Shepard's mind from what we've seen) is that an isolated Cerberus research facility (as no other facility knows of the other's existence) consisting of 20-40 individuals is indoctrinated (It doesn't make sense how TIM could be indoctrinated with the way Cerberus operates from what we've been presented so far in the game).

Balancing risk / reward, I decided keeping the Base was the greater alternative to blowing it up. Cerberus might not be too trustworthy, though they've devoted years and billions of credits to defeat the Reapers and they don't have galactic extinction as one of their goals. Therefore, I view them as an ally in the upcoming Reaper invasion.

Good post. I concur with your assemsment.

 The worst case scenario isn't an isolated indoctrinated few scientists just die, or kill a few people. The worst case scenario is that they mishandle the technology so severely that it hampers any other anti-Reaper efforts. In my Shepards' mind, from what he has seen, their mishandling could have huge consequences eg. Overlord and that damn technological apocalypse

 If you are a Shepard that doesn't see the Collector tech as the only possible way of defeating the Reapers (future, less guaranteed-to-failure research elsewhere for example), then what you are faced with is any future efforts likely being hampered by Cerberus' meddling, in a manner which could easily be decisive

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

If we actually had any other advantages over the reapers, that might be true...but we don't.

Actually, we do have a major advantage over the Reapers: Numbers.

Maybe not standing numbers, but we can create more ships to replace any we loose, and we have a total population of likely allies that is in the trillions. The Reapers may have thousands of Dreadnaught-scale vessels, but a Reaper cannot be easily replaced. Any casualties that they take are permanent, while ours are constantly growing.

Once we shift to wartime production footing, we can honestly be looking at pumping out thousands of vessels a year. Even if it takes 5, 10, or even 100 ships to take down a single Reaper, it is possible to out-produce them, and therefor outnumber them, if we can survive long enough.

I'd like to point out Hacketts discussion about the reapers (and Sovereign) in Arrival. He clearly thinks we're not ready for hte reapers and according to what he sez, it does seem Sovereign was extreemly difficult to put down.

Aside from that, you're starting from the assumption that we will be able to easily replace our own losses. If the reapers have any brains at all, the first thing they'll hit will be our shipyards and manufacturing faciltities.

You can't build those overnight and neither can you build dreadnoughts overnight. The reapers just won't stand and wait. It takes time to get the indutry into war-time footing, whihc is why having a large enough standing army to keep the enemy at bay while that happens is cruical.

They have one massive advantage over us - they can always move around as they plase and run away as they please. We can't. They have no static facilities or locations of great importance they must defend.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 août 2011 - 10:49 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

I'm going to reiterate my point about the Collector Base. I saw the CB as an 'Asset I Could Not Control.' It is powerful and dangerous and I would be handing it over to Cerberus. My plan is to get out form under the heel of Cerberus and I don't want them having tech that they have proven in the past unable to control.

Cerberus can't hold the asset. If the reapers want it back, they can just take it anyway. I certainly can't hold it since I'm just one ship and a crew of survivors. Alliance can't hold it. Nobody can.

What makes you so sure? What makes you think you even have to hold it?
YOU CAN BLOW IT UP AT ANY TIME. REMOTE-DETONATED-CHARGE.

And do you honestly think that Cerberus can get any usable intel out of it in the couple of months between now and the Reaper invasion? Do you think they would share it with me? Will we even still be working together?

Shep doesnt' know when the reapers will arrive and how much time we have. Not how fast Cerberus can work.
And there is no reason to think tehy won't be sharing it with you. Survival is in their own interest too.


I blew it up. Sound tactical reasoning. Not the only option. But just about the only one I had where the risks were negligible.

Except for one risk. The most important one. Repaers coming and we are not ready.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...
In WW2, car factories were converted to tank and airplane factories. Just because a nation isn't currently geared for military production does not mean it cannot be made so in relatively short order.

There is a huge difference beween a tank and a warship.

Tooling factorins to churn out tanks is irrelevant, as it's space that's teh vital battlefront, not ground.

Starship cannot be built fast and easily. You like to cite WW2 and us military buildup - but do notice that the US populaace, it's home territory and it's shipyards were never under attack during that war. And that building in space is quite different and propose differetn challenges.

The reapers have space superiority.
You need to hold the shipyards you have (in space), ensure delivery of resources needed to them..all the while fighting an enemy that can outmanouver you, overpower you, run at any time he wants and has no strategic target you can attack to force him to commit....And that same enemy is currently in the process of killing your populace and destroying your infrastructure at an alarming rate.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

The worst case scenario isn't an isolated indoctrinated few scientists just die, or kill a few people. The worst case scenario is that they mishandle the technology so severely that it hampers any other anti-Reaper efforts. In my Shepards' mind, from what he has seen, their mishandling could have huge consequences eg. Overlord and that damn technological apocalypse

 If you are a Shepard that doesn't see the Collector tech as the only possible way of defeating the Reapers (future, less guaranteed-to-failure research elsewhere for example), then what you are faced with is any future efforts likely being hampered by Cerberus' meddling, in a manner which could easily be decisive

There is no guarantee Cerberus wil fail. Especially not so apocalyipticly.
Reapers coming and reaping you if youre not ready is guaranteed.
I'd concern myself with the apocalypse that is guaranteed.

And where is that elsewhere?
I hear people constantly speaking of antoehr resource or another way, but no one has even hinted what that might be.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

The worst case scenario isn't an isolated indoctrinated few scientists just die, or kill a few people. The worst case scenario is that they mishandle the technology so severely that it hampers any other anti-Reaper efforts. In my Shepards' mind, from what he has seen, their mishandling could have huge consequences eg. Overlord and that damn technological apocalypse

 If you are a Shepard that doesn't see the Collector tech as the only possible way of defeating the Reapers (future, less guaranteed-to-failure research elsewhere for example), then what you are faced with is any future efforts likely being hampered by Cerberus' meddling, in a manner which could easily be decisive

There is no guarantee Cerberus wil fail. Especially not so apocalyipticly.
Reapers coming and reaping you if youre not ready is guaranteed.
I'd concern myself with the apocalypse that is guaranteed.

And where is that elsewhere?
I hear people constantly speaking of antoehr resource or another way, but no one has even hinted what that might be.

 You are right that is it not guaranteed that Cerberus will fail, however the odds are against them
 The Reapers coming is guaranteed, that we will not be ready for it is not guaranteed (neither meta-game or in-game)

 While it is true that people refer to there potentially being other resources or plans, without suggesting what that might be, the same is true of Collector base research. You are treating it as though turning it down guarantees the Reapers win; you have turned something baseless into our only hope

 What if in game someone suggests that people should research the effects of exploding mass relays on fleets? Those fleets are, in the long run, worthless if the Reapers are unstoppable, and who knows we might learn something that would help against the Reapers? I would turn down that research option, and say lets try something else

 It's taking the first option put forward to you, no matter how futile it seems, because you have concluded that no othr plan suggested at a later date might work, even though you have no good reason to suggest this one plan could turn something over, other than a rough 'Well it might' attitude

Modifié par TobyHasEyes, 02 août 2011 - 11:17 .

[Pzykozis]

I find... the logic in these arguements to be strange... Logic would dictate sentient machine gods regardless of tech found from the CB would be far too advanced technologically to be bothered by the collector tech which, if you remember the normandy does well in a fight against.

It would also dictate that if the tech in the CB was sufficiently advanced to threaten reapers, then it would be so far beyond current technology and understanding of science as to render it useless to people even if they could reverse engineer it, and somehow weaponise it. Not to mention weaponising such tech in a short time frame is patently absurd.

Also, Harbinger would / should if not completely slly remove data from the databases (still strange that EDI can interact with a foreign interface and beat more advanced tech in firewall wars but alas mary sue.) Since this doesn't seem to have happened the arguement could be made that this in fact is a giant honeypot, the use of which has been alluded to before with the relays etc.

Essentially it'd boil down to the CB being insignificant, unless in swoops an army of friendly reapers, it'd all be futile, claiming the CB would help is wishful thinking.

But since I doubt I'd get my lovecraftian ending unless I tried hard to fail, no doubt logic will unravel and stuff will happen. For myself I destroy it, 'cause I like explosions, and find it inconsequential regardless. Collector tech is not all that much more advanced than current normandy tech and reaper tech would be beyond comprehension. If I could have kept it for myself I might have kept it, it would make a pretty nice castle or maybe a mantel piece, but it's just a fancy ornament.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pzykozis wrote...

I find... the logic in these arguements to be strange... Logic would dictate sentient machine gods regardless of tech found from the CB would be far too advanced technologically to be bothered by the collector tech which, if you remember the normandy does well in a fight against.

It would also dictate that if the tech in the CB was sufficiently advanced to threaten reapers, then it would be so far beyond current technology and understanding of science as to render it useless to people even if they could reverse engineer it, and somehow weaponise it. Not to mention weaponising such tech in a short time frame is patently absurd.

Also, Harbinger would / should if not completely slly remove data from the databases (still strange that EDI can interact with a foreign interface and beat more advanced tech in firewall wars but alas mary sue.) Since this doesn't seem to have happened the arguement could be made that this in fact is a giant honeypot, the use of which has been alluded to before with the relays etc.

Essentially it'd boil down to the CB being insignificant, unless in swoops an army of friendly reapers, it'd all be futile, claiming the CB would help is wishful thinking.

Actually, your logic is comepletely broken.

Not only does the CB contain reper tech (not just Collector tech), but it's been proven reper tech can be reverse-engineered (EDI, Thanix Cannon)

Hence, the whole idea that CB would be useless and nothing can come from it is sheer nonsese that has no solid grounds to stand on.

[jtav]

I think keeping the base is the right thing to do. There is nothing wrong with studying the base per se, and Shepard can't say with certainty that Cerberus would pulp more humans. At worst, as far as Shep knows, we have a repeat of what happened to the IFF team. At best, we gain useful understanding of the Reapers. Yes, empowering Cerberus is bad, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
There is no guarantee Cerberus wil fail. Especially not so apocalyipticly.
Reapers coming and reaping you if youre not ready is guaranteed.
I'd concern myself with the apocalypse that is guaranteed.

And where is that elsewhere?
I hear people constantly speaking of antoehr resource or another way, but no one has even hinted what that might be.

You are right that is it not guaranteed that Cerberus will fail, however the odds are against them

Actually, they are not. Cerberus has a track record of getting RESULTS, which is what matters.

The Reapers coming is guaranteed, that we will not be ready for it is not guaranteed (neither meta-game or in-game)

Hacket in Arival: We're not ready for them.


 While it is true that people refer to there potentially being other resources or plans, without suggesting what that might be, the same is true of Collector base research. You are treating it as though turning it down guarantees the Reapers win; you have turned something baseless into our only hope.

Nope, I have solid gounds for beliveing the base will hlep.
You have no basis for beliving something else will turn up. That difference is rather large.


 What if in game someone suggests that people should research the effects of exploding mass relays on fleets? Those fleets are, in the long run, worthless if the Reapers are unstoppable, and who knows we might learn something that would help against the Reapers? I would turn down that research option, and say lets try something else

:blink:That's...a redicolous research option if I ever heard one.....


 It's taking the first option put forward to you, no matter how futile it seems, because you have concluded that no othr plan suggested at a later date might work, even though you have no good reason to suggest this one plan could turn something over, other than a rough 'Well it might' attitude.

What plan suggested at a lalter date? you're bsing your hopes on something you don't even know is htere...and is actually a future event? And you would rely on that with time being the siiue as it is?

So instead of researching a source of CB tech that you know is here (and have a reasonable expoectation it wil lturn something up)...you rely on another source popping out at a later date ... effectively giving up the advantage that the time between now and then can give you.
You are also hoping that that later date might happen before the reapers arrival... AND you have absolutely NOTHING to base that hope on?
Riiiiight.....

[xXljoshlXx]

Was there anything useful gathered from the derelict reaper other than the IFF(even that backfired)

[Ghost Warrior]

jtav wrote...

I think keeping the base is the right thing to do. There is nothing wrong with studying the base per se, and Shepard can't say with certainty that Cerberus would pulp more humans. At worst, as far as Shep knows, we have a repeat of what happened to the IFF team. At best, we gain useful understanding of the Reapers. Yes, empowering Cerberus is bad, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This.

[Lotion Soronarr]

xXljoshlXx wrote...

Was there anything useful gathered from the derelict reaper other than the IFF(even that backfired)

To identify the IFF the scientist had to study various components of the reaper to determine the purpose.
The scientist did make logs and reports and ther's terminal around.

So I'd say it's highly probable.