3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think keeping the base is the right thing to do. There is nothing wrong with studying the base per se, and Shepard can't say with certainty that Cerberus would pulp more humans. At worst, as far as Shep knows, we have a repeat of what happened to the IFF team. At best, we gain useful understanding of the Reapers. Yes, empowering Cerberus is bad, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This.

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

[Pzykozis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, your logic is comepletely broken.

Not only does the CB contain reper tech (not just Collector tech), but it's been proven reper tech can be reverse-engineered (EDI, Thanix Cannon)

Hence, the whole idea that CB would be useless and nothing can come from it is sheer nonsese that has no solid grounds to stand on.

Fair enough... I missed the part about thanix being reaper, just thought it was turian tech... I'd argue against the logic of the series in that case. Give todays quantum entanglement devices to people a hundred years ago and see what comes of it within a short timeframe. The idea that a completely alien technology can be reverse engineered and understood in little time is absurd but meh, that's broadening the scope of the discussion.

You did outright ignore many of my other points though.

[SandTrout]

The idea that a completely alien technology can be reverse engineered and understood in little time is absurd but meh, that's broadening the scope of the discussion.

That is because you're assuming 'techno-god' status of the Reapers. If their technology can be reverse engineered, then it's not that much more advanced than our own technology. In fact, it seems like most Reaper tech is largely just bigger and better versions of modern ME tech.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

That's because Cerberus deserves to left in the dirt. They have no part in humanity's future whatsoever.

[Someone With Mass]

SandTrout wrote...
That is because you're assuming 'techno-god' status of the Reapers. If their technology can be reverse engineered, then it's not that much more advanced than our own technology. In fact, it seems like most Reaper tech is largely just bigger and better versions of modern ME tech.

And yet, no-one/so few understands Prothean technology...

[TobyHasEyes]

 Do Cerberus have a  track record of getting results? What you deem to be results seems to be up to interpretation, with a heady amount of trust that Cerberus will come through in the end

 Their work in ME1 regarding experimenting with rachni was successfuly in so far as they got rachni samples, but up until now all we saw as a result of that was dead soldiers. Their work on Dragons Teeth was successful in so far as they turned people into Husks, however as the scientists involved also became Husks that then had to be killed as well, to judge that as a good result you have to trust that Cerberus got something useful from that. Overlord was a successful in so far as they got connected to that Geth collective mindset, but the results that we can see (without trusting that Cerberus will come good in the end) was dead soldiers and a potential technological apocalypse

 I won't deny that they resurrected Shepard successfully, or that their methods to create biotic humans resulted in biotic soldiers (as well as many dying from cancer, but as a pure results method in a Reaper situation as repugnant as it is that has to count as a result). But I will contend the extent to which we can then paint them as an organisation with a reputation of getting the job done successfully..

 Hackett in Arrival states that they are not ready to face the Reapers, that is true. However to highlight the flaw in taking his statement as gospel consider that he makes exactly the same statement if you DO save the Collector Base. If he is in-game gospel, then the Collector base can't be of use either. What he is doing is putting forward a perspective, a fallible perspective analysing the military efforts he is aware of

The point I was making with the 'exploding Mass Relay research' might be better expressed if I put it in this format

 Illusive Man: Wait Shepard, before you stop me exploding Mass Relays, consider the potential. Exploding a Mass Relay having lured Reapers to them could potentially destroy them. 

 Shepard: What are the chances of that being successful? How could you know?

 Illusive Man: Mass Relays are Reaper technology, and are more powerful than we truly understand. We have done risky research before and have gotten results. Without this, we have no other plans, no other chances. Don't discard this opportunity!

 Shepard: So you don't know if it would?

 Illusive Man: It is a risk, a calculated risk. And if it doesn't work, then we haven't dented our chances of defeating the Reapers, as currently we have none. Don't give up this opportunity on baseless hopes that some better plan might turn up

 My Shepard: You haven't got any solid theories on how this could actually help, only on how this could go wrong. Yes I have no reason to think that another plan will come along, but your plan is only likely to result in destroying any other attempts to stop the Reapers - (leaves)

 Your Shepard: My God you're right. We have no chances as it is, no plans. If there is even the slightest chance that this could save us, (stern face) I have no choice - (exploding Mass Relays ensues)

[TobyHasEyes]

Pzykozis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, your logic is comepletely broken.

Not only does the CB contain reper tech (not just Collector tech), but it's been proven reper tech can be reverse-engineered (EDI, Thanix Cannon)

Hence, the whole idea that CB would be useless and nothing can come from it is sheer nonsese that has no solid grounds to stand on.

Fair enough... I missed the part about thanix being reaper, just thought it was turian tech... I'd argue against the logic of the series in that case. Give todays quantum entanglement devices to people a hundred years ago and see what comes of it within a short timeframe. The idea that a completely alien technology can be reverse engineered and understood in little time is absurd but meh, that's broadening the scope of the discussion.

You did outright ignore many of my other points though.

 Although the Thanix Cannon succesfully achieves nothing in helping us stop the Reapers, we have no precedent for any research on Reaper tech turning up something that would stop them

[Pulletlamer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

[Seboist]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

You clearly didn't pay any attention to TIM's mission complete notes as he talks about needing the Quarians,Geth,Krogan and Vorcha for the Reaper war.

[Someone With Mass]

By the way, retrofitting all the ships to carry new weapons will take a very long time. Especially with the dreadnoughts, considering that their main guns are their spines.

[Medhia Nox]

It's amazing what some of you invent - I supply a video detailing every visual kill. It's 5 cruisers that Sovereign destroys on screen.

Sovereign - is not - in the fight. He does not enter the fight until his fornication with the Citadel tower is disturbed.

If you want to invent a huge swath of destruction - then invent it as your claim to why you did what you did.

I'll say that "off screen" Sovereign was doing needlepoint - because, well - we're not shown that he was NOT doing needlepoint.

This entire argument is invented by people who want to make Renegade choices and want to be applauded for them.

There's nothing wrong with keeping the base- it's pragmatic and I understand the choice to do so.

The affirmation that destroying it is completely, utterly, and inexcusably wrong just reveals the type of personalities that play Renegades.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 août 2011 - 03:27 .

[Someone With Mass]

Seboist wrote...

You clearly didn't pay any attention to TIM's mission complete notes as he talks about needing the Quarians,Geth,Krogan and Vorcha for the Reaper war.

It's more about them serving as his personal shock troopers, which we all can live without.

[TobyHasEyes]

Seboist wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

You clearly didn't pay any attention to TIM's mission complete notes as he talks about needing the Quarians,Geth,Krogan and Vorcha for the Reaper war.

 Cerberus can play a part of pooling resources, but they don't want to befriend anyone; just ally with them for as long as the Reapers are a threat. So while I am happy for them to fight the Reapers with everyone else, they have no place in a united future

[Pulletlamer]

Seboist wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

You clearly didn't pay any attention to TIM's mission complete notes as he talks about needing the Quarians,Geth,Krogan and Vorcha for the Reaper war.

First, I thought mission complete screens said information about the mission. Second: Link or that didn't happen, and third, The Vorcha? Haha, it's amazing where you pull that off...that is, from your sleeve.

[Seboist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think keeping the base is the right thing to do. There is nothing wrong with studying the base per se, and Shepard can't say with certainty that Cerberus would pulp more humans. At worst, as far as Shep knows, we have a repeat of what happened to the IFF team. At best, we gain useful understanding of the Reapers. Yes, empowering Cerberus is bad, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This.

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

These bleeding hearts are the same ones that have no qualms with their Shepard being part of a brutal secret police force of an alien racial caste good ol' boys club while proclaiming how moral and self-rightous they are.

Hypocrisy is just part of the package ya know.

[TobyHasEyes]

Seboist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think keeping the base is the right thing to do. There is nothing wrong with studying the base per se, and Shepard can't say with certainty that Cerberus would pulp more humans. At worst, as far as Shep knows, we have a repeat of what happened to the IFF team. At best, we gain useful understanding of the Reapers. Yes, empowering Cerberus is bad, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This.

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

These bleeding hearts are the same ones that have no qualms with their Shepard being part of a brutal secret police force of an alien racial caste good ol' boys club while proclaiming how moral and self-rightous they are.

Hypocrisy is just part of the package ya know.

 This isn't a Council vs Cerberus thread, take it elsewhere

[Seboist]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think keeping the base is the right thing to do. There is nothing wrong with studying the base per se, and Shepard can't say with certainty that Cerberus would pulp more humans. At worst, as far as Shep knows, we have a repeat of what happened to the IFF team. At best, we gain useful understanding of the Reapers. Yes, empowering Cerberus is bad, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

This.

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

These bleeding hearts are the same ones that have no qualms with their Shepard being part of a brutal secret police force of an alien racial caste good ol' boys club while proclaiming how moral and self-rightous they are.

Hypocrisy is just part of the package ya know.

 This isn't a Council vs Cerberus thread, take it elsewhere

I like how you're trying to dictate what is and isn't appropriate on a morality thread given the OP:

As per Javier's instructions, here is new topic to discuss the Collector
Base decision and other moral aspects of the Mass Effect universe. The
title is a nod to a post Arcian made in the old topic, in which he said
it would blend well with the Renegade content of the topic. In a twist
of irony, I've decided to name the new topic just that, since I feel
that one's own views ultimately decide which side is the delusional one.

So no I won't take it elsewhere.

[TobyHasEyes]

 Okay, it is a change of topic but fair play, let's go back over all the pro Cerberus / anti Council arguments again

 Which the last time boiled down to Saphra Deden stating that by definition all sentient beings acted in self interest, and that it is impossible for anyone to put somebody else's interests before their own

 And me stating that that is wholly inaccurate

 Ideally the Spectre's should be reformed, as a system they should have to be better supervised and their morally dubious actions should only be regarded as permissable if it is judged that it was definately necessary

 I don't think there is any solid evidence that the current Council is a racial caste old boys club, their claim that a species' can only join the Council if they have been shown to put the interets of the galaxy ahead of their own narrow interests explains their membership and actions; a more skeptical view could also explain their actions but that is little suprise as a skeptical interpretation of events is always possible

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The affirmation that destroying it is completely, utterly, and inexcusably wrong just reveals the type of personalities that play Renegades.

The affirmation that keeping it is completely, utterly, and inexcusably wrong just reveals the type of personalities that play Paragons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

That's because Cerberus deserves to left in the dirt. They have no part in humanity's future whatsoever.

Which is stupid any hypoctitical.

If we need to pull our resources and unite the galaxy, then that includes Cerberus - especially since they have been working agaisnt the repaers from the start.

Your assertion the Cerberus "deserves" to be left in the dirt is a product of blind hate, not rational thinking.

Let's say I think asari should be left in the dirt. Or quarians. Care to prove me wrong? How do you judge who "desdrves" it? Why is your judgment so important to take precedence over the safety of the galaxy? What even makes you think you have the right to judge who deserves what?

[TobyHasEyes]

As per Javier's instructions, here is new topic to discuss the Collector
Base decision and other moral aspects of the Mass Effect universe. The
title is a nod to a post Arcian made in the old topic, in which he said
it would blend well with the Renegade content of the topic. In a twist
of irony, I've decided to name the new topic just that, since I feel
that one's own views ultimately decide which side is the delusional one.

 But lets interrupt that debate to consider
    - do Krogans have free will?
    - is ME2 Shepard the same Shepard he was before his death-and-resurrection?
    - should the Council races ideally join together to fund all Volus enviro-suits?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. They want a strong humanity - and that is the only smart stance one can have in light of galactic politics.

But I guess you are too blind to see the difference.

[Ghost Warrior]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. They want a strong humanity - and that is the only smart stance one can have in light of galactic politics.

But I guess you are too blind to see the difference.

Yes,but that doesn't matter anymore,since they will be one of the biggest enemies in ME3.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pzykozis wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually, your logic is comepletely broken.

Not only does the CB contain reper tech (not just Collector tech), but it's been proven reper tech can be reverse-engineered (EDI, Thanix Cannon)

Hence, the whole idea that CB would be useless and nothing can come from it is sheer nonsese that has no solid grounds to stand on.

Fair enough... I missed the part about thanix being reaper, just thought it was turian tech... I'd argue against the logic of the series in that case. Give todays quantum entanglement devices to people a hundred years ago and see what comes of it within a short timeframe. The idea that a completely alien technology can be reverse engineered and understood in little time is absurd but meh, that's broadening the scope of the discussion.

You did outright ignore many of my other points though.

The more you're explosed and hte more you study such technology, the faster your knowledge base builds and hte faster you research.
How fasst a research on somethign can go is impossible to tell. Amazing breaktroughs cna be achieved in a short time span..or research can dragon on for years.

But all research - evne the one that's dragin along - proviedes data and knowledge.

Now Cerberus has been dealing with repaer tech longer than anyone - which is why they are the perfect candidates for researching the base.

And what other point you are reffering to? You mean the databases?
Well, you coudl ascribe that to bad writing, or Harbringer not realising the danger EDI reprsents.

But even wihout the databses, the CB is a trasure throve of knowledge. Just analyzing the machinery and electronics is bound ot bring a big technolgoy boost.