3618 réponses à ce sujet

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. They want a strong humanity - and that is the only smart stance one can have in light of galactic politics.

But I guess you are too blind to see the difference.

 TIM states at the end of ME2 that he intends to "secure our dominance in the galaxy". Dominance over aliens is not the same as simply wanting humanity to play a strong role

[marshalleck]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. They want a strong humanity - and that is the only smart stance one can have in light of galactic politics.

But I guess you are too blind to see the difference.

 TIM states at the end of ME2 that he intends to "secure our dominance in the galaxy". Dominance over aliens is not the same as simply wanting humanity to play a strong role

It's not the same as preparing gas chambers for the other species either, as some people state to be Cerberus' clear and definite goal. 

Mass Effect 2 shows perfectly well that Cerberus doesn't blindly hate aliens and refuse their aid or expertise when it would be beneficial. Pulletlamer is either smoking crack or played a very different version of ME2 than the rest of us.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 août 2011 - 04:00 .

[Medhia Nox]

@marshalleck - you must have skipped the line where I said it makes total sense to keep the base.

I don't think either choice is wrong - what I do believe is that anyone who thinks their choice is the only right one is an ignorant sod.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Which is stupid any hypoctitical.

If we need to pull our resources and unite the galaxy, then that includes Cerberus - especially since they have been working agaisnt the repaers from the start.

Your assertion the Cerberus "deserves" to be left in the dirt is a product of blind hate, not rational thinking.

Let's say I think asari should be left in the dirt. Or quarians. Care to prove me wrong? How do you judge who "desdrves" it? Why is your judgment so important to take precedence over the safety of the galaxy? What even makes you think you have the right to judge who deserves what?

No, that's my choice, because their successful assignments don't outweigh their failures.

"But they revived Shepard!"

Yeah, but they didn't even attempt to recover his/her body. Liara did all that.

And if there's anyone who can restore the safety of the galaxy, it's certainly not Cerberus.

[Seboist]

HomelessGal wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...
First, I thought mission complete screens said information about the mission. Second: Link or that didn't happen, and third, The Vorcha? Haha, it's amazing where you pull that off...that is, from your sleeve.

These are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head:

http://masseffect.wi...Mission_Summary

http://masseffect.wi...Mission_Summary

Also Tali's recruitment mission.

http://masseffect.wi...i/Dossier:_Tali

TIM's email if Shepard decides to keep Legion.

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Reaper_IFF

Mordin's loyalty mission.

http://masseffect.wi...rdin:_Old_Blood

If the genophage data is kept TIM talks about the Krogans being useful as shock troops against the Reapers and if it's destroyed he talks about needing to recruit the Vorcha.

Since that page doesn't link the summary of the latter(for some odd reason) here's a youtube vid that does.

(41:20)

[Medhia Nox]

And "they revive Shepard" to suit their own ends - not out of any sort of altruism.

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@marshalleck - you must have skipped the line where I said it makes total sense to keep the base.

I don't think either choice is wrong - what I do believe is that anyone who thinks their choice is the only right one is an ignorant sod.

I didn't skip it--just pointing out that you can flip the polarity of the statement and it still works. There is no reason to single out renegades as extremists; paragons can be just as bad.

[TobyHasEyes]

marshalleck wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. They want a strong humanity - and that is the only smart stance one can have in light of galactic politics.

But I guess you are too blind to see the difference.

 TIM states at the end of ME2 that he intends to "secure our dominance in the galaxy". Dominance over aliens is not the same as simply wanting humanity to play a strong role

It's not the same as preparing gas chambers for the other species either, as some people state to be Cerberus' clear and definite goal. 

 It is not the same, but as I say, it is also not the same as wanting to defend humanity

 If England stated it wanted to wipe out everyone who wasn't English, that would be one thing
 If England stated it wanted dominance over everyone who wasn't English, that would be a different thing
 If England stated it wanted the strength to defend England's interests, that would again be a different thing

 The second one option I would regard as the best analogy for Cerberus' aims, and it is morally repugnant enough

[Medhia Nox]

@marshalleck: Can you point me at the threads where people have written: "You're stupid if you don't destroy the base!"

Mind you - individuals will say this, and I disagree with them - though I support their decision to blow it up. I don't think a single "Keep it" has yet admitted that blowing it up might also be viable.

Maybe I glossed over them - but, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they're much more rare than: "Destroy Geth only option!" "Samara is a dangerous zealot - Morinth is a sweetie pie!" and of course "Destroying the base makes you a moron."

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 août 2011 - 04:05 .

[Pzykozis]

SandTrout wrote...

The idea that a completely alien technology can be reverse engineered and understood in little time is absurd but meh, that's broadening the scope of the discussion.

That is because you're assuming 'techno-god' status of the Reapers. If their technology can be reverse engineered, then it's not that much more advanced than our own technology. In fact, it seems like most Reaper tech is largely just bigger and better versions of modern ME tech.

It's not particularly that, though the idea that there is a divide between our tech and teh that's been around for millions of years is there and I think that's a fairly logical conclusion people can beg to differ of course, evidently with the thanix cannon i'm not too well informed on some of the mass effect lore.

It's mostly down to the very fact that reapers and by extension collectors don't think (in the case of the collectors think at all) anywhere close to how we think. Their ways of interfacing with tech would be completely different, not to mention construction techniques etc. It wouldn't be as simple as grabbing a blender and reverse engineering it it'd be more like pre electrical mechanic looking at a modern pc, it's a different architecture completely and would be completely alien, the underlying technological difference aside (I did say it's a factor but not the main point) just the way the whole thing is utilised and interacted with would need a lot of time to figure out as well as perhaps new theories in engineering and even sciences etc to be made (for more enjoyment just give them the tower without a monitor and keyboard etc), none of this is particularly quick.

It's like how Shep randomly knows how to use a collector computer. It's doubtful it has english keys and layout, but meh.

Compound that by a lot if their technology is vastly more advanced, to me it would seem apparant but that's possibly a point of contention.

That's kinda why I'd argue against it, but kind of a side discussion I guess.

[marshalleck]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. They want a strong humanity - and that is the only smart stance one can have in light of galactic politics.

But I guess you are too blind to see the difference.

 TIM states at the end of ME2 that he intends to "secure our dominance in the galaxy". Dominance over aliens is not the same as simply wanting humanity to play a strong role

It's not the same as preparing gas chambers for the other species either, as some people state to be Cerberus' clear and definite goal. 

 It is not the same, but as I say, it is also not the same as wanting to defend humanity

 If England stated it wanted to wipe out everyone who wasn't English, that would be one thing
 If England stated it wanted dominance over everyone who wasn't English, that would be a different thing
 If England stated it wanted the strength to defend England's interests, that would again be a different thing

 The second one option I would regard as the best analogy for Cerberus' aims, and it is morally repugnant enough

The war with Reapers is coming and if we survive, everyone will be scrambling to unlock the secrets of Reaper technology. Those who do so first will be dominant over the others. Humanity can either compete or be crushed under someone else's heel. I'd prefer the former.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Do Cerberus have a  track record of getting results? What you deem to be results seems to be up to interpretation, with a heady amount of trust that Cerberus will come through in the end

Result = usefull knowledge.

Even if the lab blows up and the scientists are killed, if hte knowledge gained fro mthe experiment is saved, if hte expermient made progress - then it's technicly a success.
Sure, it would have been a lot better if the lab doeesn't blow up or the scientists don't die.
It's only a complete wash if you get nothing for your efforts.


 

 Hackett in Arrival states that they are not ready to face the Reapers, that is true. However to highlight the flaw in taking his statement as gospel consider that he makes exactly the same statement if you DO save the Collector Base. If he is in-game gospel, then the Collector base can't be of use either. What he is doing is putting forward a perspective, a fallible perspective analysing the military efforts he is aware of

Arrival takes place shortly after teh SM and CB decission.
You do realise that it takes time for Cerberus to do research and start feeding the Alliance the results?
What's so strange or unexpected about Hackett not saying that they are not ready?

Not to mention, as an high ranking admiral who took part in the battle, his analsysis should hold a heck of a lot of weight. He should know the state of the alliance navy better than anyone.

The point I was making with the 'exploding Mass Relay research' might be better expressed if I put it in this format

You can format it however you want, it stil makes no sesne as the comparison is flawed  on several levels.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 août 2011 - 04:08 .

[TobyHasEyes]

 @ marshalleck

 You state your theory on what will happen post-Reapers as though it is fact. It is no proven fact that we will need to fight to stop other species' dominating us, there is no reason to conclude Council-esque diplomacy won't continue

 I'd prefer to be one of the races fighting for a diplomatic united effort to continue, rather than one who brings about all-out war through a self-fulfilling prophecy

[marshalleck]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 @ marshalleck

 You state your theory on what will happen post-Reapers as though it is fact. It is no proven fact that we will need to fight to stop other species' dominating us, there is no reason to conclude Council-esque diplomacy won't continue

Actually, there are some indicators that disagree with you. Thanix weapon technology, specifically. And the turians' unwillingness to share, even with the salarians and asari.

Additionally, all throughout human history we see what happens when a technologically superior civilization encounters a lesser. The lesser is destroyed and assimilated. As all the species in Mass Effect are archetypes of human cultures and civilizations, I see no reason why I shouldn't believe my theory holds.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 août 2011 - 04:17 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Result = usefull knowledge.

Even if the lab blows up and the scientists are killed, if hte knowledge gained fro mthe experiment is saved, if hte expermient made progress - then it's technicly a success.
Sure, it would have been a lot better if the lab doeesn't blow up or the scientists don't die.
It's only a complete wash if you get nothing for your efforts.

Compared to what they could've gotten from something like the derelict Reaper, I'd say that's a mild failure.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes.

I find it funny that epopel are so clamoring about "UNITING THE GALXY".
"We all have to work together".
Let's make Salarians and Krogans firends.
Let's make Geth and Quarians firends.


EVERYONE UNITE!!.....except for Cerberus..
Hypocrites.

The problem is Cerberus don't wants to befriend with anyone.

Salarians /Krogans and Geth/quarians could put aside their differences to combat the Reapers. Cerberus I very much doubt it, seeing as they hate aliens and want to pass over them.

Cerberus doesn't hate aliens. They want a strong humanity - and that is the only smart stance one can have in light of galactic politics.

But I guess you are too blind to see the difference.

 TIM states at the end of ME2 that he intends to "secure our dominance in the galaxy". Dominance over aliens is not the same as simply wanting humanity to play a strong role

It's not the same as preparing gas chambers for the other species either, as some people state to be Cerberus' clear and definite goal. 

 It is not the same, but as I say, it is also not the same as wanting to defend humanity

 If England stated it wanted to wipe out everyone who wasn't English, that would be one thing
 If England stated it wanted dominance over everyone who wasn't English, that would be a different thing
 If England stated it wanted the strength to defend England's interests, that would again be a different thing

 The second one option I would regard as the best analogy for Cerberus' aims, and it is morally repugnant enough

Dominance is not a evil thing in itself. The strong dominate. This is not to be contested - it's logical enough.
If someone is stronger than you, he will dominate.
The only way to prevent someone from dominating you is to be just as strong, or preferably stronger.

There's nothing morally repugnant about it.
Strength is the best defense.

Or do you assume that the Turians, Asari, Krogan and all the others will not reach for an opportunity to dominate? That's how politics work. Nations look after their own interests and each tries to be on top.
The whole history of humantiy is a testamanet to this simple truth.

[Someone With Mass]

marshalleck wrote...

Actually, there are some indicators that disagree with you. Thanix weapon technology, specifically. And the turians' unwillingness to share, even with the salarians and asari.

Wait, a government that has a secret weapon it don't want to share with anyone? Who would've thought that could happen?

[Pulletlamer]

Seboist wrote...

*link list*

If the genophage data is kept TIM talks about the Krogans being useful as shock troops against the Reapers and if it's destroyed he talks about needing to recruit the Vorcha.

One thing is saying recruiting Vorcha and Krogan informants and the other is saying they're going to recruit Vorcha to combat the Reapers .
But it doesn't say : we must collaborate with vorcha against the Reapers. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie]

Yes they appear on the mission screens, you're right, I apologize for doubting on that. After 6 playthroughs I don't pay attention to mission screens, no. Anyway let's not derrail the thread off-topic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Result = usefull knowledge.

Even if the lab blows up and the scientists are killed, if hte knowledge gained fro mthe experiment is saved, if hte expermient made progress - then it's technicly a success.
Sure, it would have been a lot better if the lab doeesn't blow up or the scientists don't die.
It's only a complete wash if you get nothing for your efforts.

Compared to what they could've gotten from something like the derelict Reaper, I'd say that's a mild failure.

Hey, it's Shepaprd who blew the EZ core and caused the reaper to fall into the star, thus blowing away any research potential with it.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Do Cerberus have a  track record of getting results? What you deem to be results seems to be up to interpretation, with a heady amount of trust that Cerberus will come through in the end

Result = usefull knowledge.

Even if the lab blows up and the scientists are killed, if hte knowledge gained fro mthe experiment is saved, if hte expermient made progress - then it's technicly a success.
Sure, it would have been a lot better if the lab doeesn't blow up or the scientists don't die.
It's only a complete wash if you get nothing for your efforts.


 

 Hackett in Arrival states that they are not ready to face the Reapers, that is true. However to highlight the flaw in taking his statement as gospel consider that he makes exactly the same statement if you DO save the Collector Base. If he is in-game gospel, then the Collector base can't be of use either. What he is doing is putting forward a perspective, a fallible perspective analysing the military efforts he is aware of

Arrival takes place shortly after teh SM and CB decission.
You do realise that it takes time for Cerberus to do research and start feeding the Alliance the results?
What's so strange or unexpected about Hackett not saying that they are not ready?

Not to mention, as an high ranking admiral who took part in the battle, his analsysis should hold a heck of a lot of weight. He should know the state of the alliance navy better than anyone.

The point I was making with the 'exploding Mass Relay research' might be better expressed if I put it in this format

You can format it however you want, it stil makes no sesne as the comparison is flawed  on several levels.

 My point is that from most of the examples of Cerberus' research I quoted, we don't actually have any evidence that they did make any progress, or get useful information. Yet people keep insisting 'though we haven't seen the information from that experiment, or heard of it, we must conclude it was worthwhile because they must have gotten information'. You have no way of knowing

  The point you make regarding Hackett is my point exactly; you say that Cerberus' research has not yet reached him, well then he is not an omniscient declaration that the galaxy has no plans or chances or hope. Just as he doesn't even know what Cerberus is doing, he has no idea what research any of the other species' are up to

 You introduced Hackett's claim to suggest that it was an in-game certainty at the point of the Collector Base mission that the Reapers would win. I am saying his statement doesn't provide that certainty, and that is what we have now both concluded

 Your reasons for why it is a flawed analogy remain inexplicit

[marshalleck]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Actually, there are some indicators that disagree with you. Thanix weapon technology, specifically. And the turians' unwillingness to share, even with the salarians and asari.

Wait, a government that has a secret weapon it don't want to share with anyone? Who would've thought that could happen?

Apparently only the extremely idealistic couldn't see this one coming. 

[Pzykozis]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The more you're explosed and hte more you study such technology, the faster your knowledge base builds and hte faster you research.
How fasst a research on somethign can go is impossible to tell. Amazing breaktroughs cna be achieved in a short time span..or research can dragon on for years.

But all research - evne the one that's dragin along - proviedes data and knowledge.

Now Cerberus has been dealing with repaer tech longer than anyone - which is why they are the perfect candidates for researching the base.

And what other point you are reffering to? You mean the databases?
Well, you coudl ascribe that to bad writing, or Harbringer not realising the danger EDI reprsents.

But even wihout the databses, the CB is a trasure throve of knowledge. Just analyzing the machinery and electronics is bound ot bring a big technolgoy boost.

I'm not arguing that the CB would bring no advances, I'm saying that the advances it will bring would take so long as to have it so that you discover a break through years after everyones already been harvested. Dependant on how long it takes the reapers to do stuff since, they don't have access to the citadel records showing where the races have colonies. But perhaps thats just because I dislike the idea of super EDI to the rescue, and might be giving the reapers more credit than they deserve, i.e. making them more alien than they are.