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[Barquiel]

Someone With Mass wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Actually, there are some indicators that disagree with you. Thanix weapon technology, specifically. And the turians' unwillingness to share, even with the salarians and asari.

Wait, a government that has a secret weapon it don't want to share with anyone? Who would've thought that could happen?

Garrus isn't a turian admiral or something...and he has the plans. The technology isn't a big secret, I think.

[TobyHasEyes]

marshalleck wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 @ marshalleck

 You state your theory on what will happen post-Reapers as though it is fact. It is no proven fact that we will need to fight to stop other species' dominating us, there is no reason to conclude Council-esque diplomacy won't continue

Actually, there are some indicators that disagree with you. Thanix weapon technology, specifically. And the turians' unwillingness to share, even with the salarians and asari.

Additionally, all throughout human history we see what happens when a technologically superior civilization encounters a lesser. The lesser is destroyed and assimilated. As all the species in Mass Effect are archetypes of human cultures and civilizations, I see no reason why I shouldn't believe my theory holds.

 There is no suggestion that Thanix technology was going to be used to establish human dominance. The indicators to disagree with you are that diplomatic entities such as the Council exist at all; rather than attack the Salarians the Asari joined with them, and neither group has since set about wiping out a lesser

 Additionally in human history there have been alliances between stronger countries and weaker countries, and there has been moral progression and greater diplomatic efforts in recent times which don't merit being ignored

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

My point is that from most of the examples of Cerberus' research I quoted, we don't actually have any evidence that they did make any progress, or get useful information. Yet people keep insisting 'though we haven't seen the information from that experiment, or heard of it, we must conclude it was worthwhile because they must have gotten information'. You have no way of knowing

Actually, we do know that the scientists send report and updates to TIM. We also cna find ddata logs and terminals with messages and notes. What? You think that people who work in labs dont' store any data on the research they're doing on the computers they use?

  The point you make regarding Hackett is my point exactly; you say that Cerberus' research has not yet reached him, well then he is not an omniscient declaration that the galaxy has no plans or chances or hope. Just as he doesn't even know what Cerberus is doing, he has no idea what research any of the other species' are up to

 You introduced Hackett's claim to suggest that it was an in-game certainty at the point of the Collector Base mission that the Reapers would win. I am saying his statement doesn't provide that certainty, and that is what we have now both concluded.

He's not omniscent - yet how knows the Alliance military, and is well informed on the military matters of the galaxy. He should know the numebrs and power of the Turan, Asari and other races fleets, as an admiral. And he knows Sovereigns strength.
So his analyisis that the galaxy is not ready - in it's current state - is something that should be considered rather accurate.
Something might happen later to change this state, but at the current point in time, when Hackett gives you the analysis, this should hold true.

Now, do other species have some secret project on their own? I don't know. Nothing has been said or hinted in that regard, so  I couldn't say. But we are going to need every advantage we can muster to beat the reapers. The more secret projects we have, the better.

 Your reasons for why it is a flawed analogy remain inexplicit

Becasue it's not comparable to hte CB in many cruical aspects.
Basicly, apples and oranges.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Hey, it's Shepaprd who blew the EZ core and caused the reaper to fall into the star, thus blowing away any research potential with it.

It was Cerberus that forced them into that situation to begin with. 

[marshalleck]

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

[TobyHasEyes]

@ Lotion Soronnar

 It is not universal law that the strong dominate, nor is it a law of logic that it is always to their advantage to dominate

 The reason we have evolved as social beings with co-dependence is that survival pressures meant at some point there was a strong benefit to co-operation. That evolutionary history has left us with emotive responses against actions which, though they may benefit me as an individual, would harm others, That is why there are numerous examples in great apes and ourselves of people sacrificing their own interests and even life for others

 Strength may be the best defence, but there is strength in unity. 

 That the whole history of humanity tesitifies to that real politik view is an outdated view, grossly outdated. I don't think you are being stupid for assuming that the other races will attempt to dominate, but I disagree that it is a necessary truth that they will

[Someone With Mass]

Barquiel wrote...

Garrus isn't a turian admiral or something...and he has the plans. The technology isn't a big secret, I think.

Garrus had connections.

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

According to Bioware writers it does.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@marshalleck: Can you point me at the threads where people have written: "You're stupid if you don't destroy the base!"

Mind you - individuals will say this, and I disagree with them - though I support their decision to blow it up. I don't think a single "Keep it" has yet admitted that blowing it up might also be viable.

Maybe I glossed over them - but, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say they're much more rare than: "Destroy Geth only option!" "Samara is a dangerous zealot - Morinth is a sweetie pie!" and of course "Destroying the base makes you a moron."

Pretty much all of FishScout's posts say that keeping the base is viable.he blew the base and presented a sound argument for it,but he accepts saving the base.

[TobyHasEyes]

marshalleck wrote...

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

 Except that if alien groups attempt to put forward diplomatic efforts to re-establish an alliance of peaceful races, you will either
 a) have already attacked them and ruined the chances of it working, or
  decide that as you are strong you have the chance to secure your dominance

 It is one thing to prepare for the worst, but then an organisation takes every opportunity to take advantage of the worst they never settle for a better situation

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

According to Bioware writers it does.

Yep. Paladins ****ting rainbows and group hugs.

Ugh. Why do I even bother with Bioware anymore.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

There is no suggestion that Thanix technology was going to be used to establish human dominance. The indicators to disagree with you are that diplomatic entities such as the Council exist at all; rather than attack the Salarians the Asari joined with them, and neither group has since set about wiping out a lesser

 Additionally in human history there have been alliances between stronger countries and weaker countries, and there has been moral progression and greater diplomatic efforts in recent times which don't merit being ignored

Existance of the Council is irrelevant. Heard about NATO? Or EU?
Very democratic and riheous, wouldnt' you say?

Yet the memebr don't have even nearly the same ammount of power, and some can easily dominate others.
Dominance extends beyond jsut hte military dominance - political or economica, or cultural - all of these are viable.

If country A can force country B to sign treatires/documents that are in the interest of country A, but not B, then A is dominating B.

[Barquiel]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Garrus isn't a turian admiral or something...and he has the plans. The technology isn't a big secret, I think.

Garrus had connections.

no doubt

But I think it's save to assume that the STG or the asari have better connections than an ex c-sec cop. He isn't a super spy

[marshalleck]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

 Except that if alien groups attempt to put forward diplomatic efforts to re-establish an alliance of peaceful races, you will either
 a) have already attacked them and ruined the chances of it working, or
  decide that as you are strong you have the chance to secure your dominance

 It is one thing to prepare for the worst, but then an organisation takes every opportunity to take advantage of the worst they never settle for a better situation

An alliance of peaceful races? The Council? 

Oh, they really worked you over, didn't they? 

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

My point is that from most of the examples of Cerberus' research I quoted, we don't actually have any evidence that they did make any progress, or get useful information. Yet people keep insisting 'though we haven't seen the information from that experiment, or heard of it, we must conclude it was worthwhile because they must have gotten information'. You have no way of knowing

Actually, we do know that the scientists send report and updates to TIM. We also cna find ddata logs and terminals with messages and notes. What? You think that people who work in labs dont' store any data on the research they're doing on the computers they use?

  The point you make regarding Hackett is my point exactly; you say that Cerberus' research has not yet reached him, well then he is not an omniscient declaration that the galaxy has no plans or chances or hope. Just as he doesn't even know what Cerberus is doing, he has no idea what research any of the other species' are up to

 You introduced Hackett's claim to suggest that it was an in-game certainty at the point of the Collector Base mission that the Reapers would win. I am saying his statement doesn't provide that certainty, and that is what we have now both concluded.

He's not omniscent - yet how knows the Alliance military, and is well informed on the military matters of the galaxy. He should know the numebrs and power of the Turan, Asari and other races fleets, as an admiral. And he knows Sovereigns strength.
So his analyisis that the galaxy is not ready - in it's current state - is something that should be considered rather accurate.
Something might happen later to change this state, but at the current point in time, when Hackett gives you the analysis, this should hold true.

Now, do other species have some secret project on their own? I don't know. Nothing has been said or hinted in that regard, so  I couldn't say. But we are going to need every advantage we can muster to beat the reapers. The more secret projects we have, the better.

 Your reasons for why it is a flawed analogy remain inexplicit

Becasue it's not comparable to hte CB in many cruical aspects.
Basicly, apples and oranges.

 The crucial aspects are that it is untested research which people try to justify the need for because

 - though we don't know if it will work, we have to take the chance
 - we currently have no other plans, so we have to try whatever we can
 - even though attempting this research could easily impede other efforts, we don't know if there will be other efforts so lets try this

[Seboist]

marshalleck wrote...

Seboist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

According to Bioware writers it does.

Yep. Paladins ****ting rainbows and group hugs.

Ugh. Why do I even bother with Bioware anymore.

We Renegades are gluttons for punishment apparently.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

No,most renegades here are zealots that refuse to accept any choice but their own as logical,no matter how good the argument.

[Seboist]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

No,most renegades here are zealots that refuse to accept any choice but their own as logical,no matter how good the argument.

When we finally see a logical argument we'll concede.

[TobyHasEyes]

marshalleck wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

 Except that if alien groups attempt to put forward diplomatic efforts to re-establish an alliance of peaceful races, you will either
 a) have already attacked them and ruined the chances of it working, or
  decide that as you are strong you have the chance to secure your dominance

 It is one thing to prepare for the worst, but then an organisation takes every opportunity to take advantage of the worst they never settle for a better situation

An alliance of peaceful races? The Council? 

Oh, they really worked you over, didn't they? 

 An alliance of races not interested in one-species dominance, or in all out warfare against peaceful species. Sounds like the current Council to me

[marshalleck]

Seboist wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

No,most renegades here are zealots that refuse to accept any choice but their own as logical,no matter how good the argument.

When we finally see a logical argument we'll concede.

 I won't let fear compromise who I am!

*blows up the base*

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Someone With Mass]

Barquiel wrote...

no doubt

But I think it's save to assume that the STG or the asari have better connections than an ex c-sec cop. He isn't a super spy

Yeah, but still. Unless you want to do trial and error, you need the schematics for the weapon, and I don't think those are so easy for outsiders to get.

[TobyHasEyes]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

There is no suggestion that Thanix technology was going to be used to establish human dominance. The indicators to disagree with you are that diplomatic entities such as the Council exist at all; rather than attack the Salarians the Asari joined with them, and neither group has since set about wiping out a lesser

 Additionally in human history there have been alliances between stronger countries and weaker countries, and there has been moral progression and greater diplomatic efforts in recent times which don't merit being ignored

Existance of the Council is irrelevant. Heard about NATO? Or EU?
Very democratic and riheous, wouldnt' you say?

Yet the memebr don't have even nearly the same ammount of power, and some can easily dominate others.
Dominance extends beyond jsut hte military dominance - political or economica, or cultural - all of these are viable.

If country A can force country B to sign treatires/documents that are in the interest of country A, but not B, then A is dominating B.

 Comparable to the previous situation in Europe, the EU is much better. You are right that the power is not evenly split, but EU legislative dominance is in no way similar to the dominance which existed in Europe prior to the EU

 In the past, country A would attack country B until they relented and did what was in the interest of country A
 In the EU, country A can try to force country B to do something that is not in their interest, and country B can leave the EU. Yes they lose the associated perks, but it is the kind of option not available in a past system where people just invaded each other

[TobyHasEyes]

Seboist wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

No,most renegades here are zealots that refuse to accept any choice but their own as logical,no matter how good the argument.

When we finally see a logical argument we'll concede.

 This is why debating moral matters on these forums isn't what it could be, people get unnecessarily combative and when a good point is made against them they tend to change the subject, or just leave

 If you comb over my past comments, you will see that I am willing to concede where I think an opposite argument to my own has weight, is thought - through and reasonable, even if I think it is ultimately the wrong choice

 And you so rarely get that back, it really makes it not worth it