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[marshalleck]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...


The Cerberus Threat Chart. But enough about that.

But seriously, to me there is enough info to mark Cerberus as terrorists. Remember what happened to Kahoku (or whatever his name was)?

Yes. And that you invoke this as evidence to substantiate a charge of terrorism just proves how correct I am about "terrorism" being devoid of any clear definition. It's an ill-defined buzzword to slander an opponent with when you want a third party to not look too closely at what the "terrorist" is saying or doing. 

Did you know that there is no universally agreed definition of terrorism? So it can still apply.

That's a load of degenerate subjectivist nonsense. Following this line of reasoning I could say anything I want about anyone and never have to justify any of it, because to me, what I said is perfectly accurate. 

You pedophile.

[Zulu_DFA]

marshalleck wrote...

"Terrorist" and "terrorism" have become emotional buzzwords used to invoke irrational feelings of panic and terror by the very people who bandy the terms about. 

Frankly, this real life situation about "terrorism" is reflected in-game. The Codex explicitly states that Cerberus has been branded a "terrorist and seditionist" organization by the Systems Alliance.

So, if the paragon players want to roleplay their Shepards as honest victims of the ANN propaganda, who are we, renegade players, to reproach them for that?

[Pulletlamer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

My point is that they're still the same xenophobic organization they were before, during, and after working with aliens.

Which means, they're not willing to accept aliens as equals, and I doubt they would actively cooperate with alien races to bring down the Reapers. Cerberus is more of working his own way.

That is frankly, bunk. Cerberus worked with aliens in prior to ME2 and during ME2. You are blatantly ignoring their actions and making up your own portrayal of what they've done.

You're full of it, in other words.

You're blatantly ignoring all the experiments they've done to other races in the galaxy:

Like rachni and thorian creepers, project overlord...

Not to mention nearly all their operatives are xenophobic (from Miranda's words), like Kai Leng.

Also they attacked a ship of the Quarian Fleet, killed it's crew and used it to infiltrate another quarian ship.

Just because they've cooperating on some specific situations with aliens  (and I wouldn't dare even say so, because they mostly gave the instructions and the aliens did the job, like Liara & Feron), doesn't mean they wouldn't dare to let them die or sacrifice them to the Reapers.

The one that is ignoring their past actions and their ideology here is you.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 02 août 2011 - 05:53 .

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Remember what happened to Kahoku?

He died of natural causes.

Indeed. Death is a natural result of being eaten by rachni. 

Actually, depending on the order you enter the bases, you can find his body with the thorian creepers.  Not that it matters, because the end of assignment text notes that he wasn't attacked by what he was caged with. Rather, he has needle-marks on his arm.

[marshalleck]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

"Terrorist" and "terrorism" have become emotional buzzwords used to invoke irrational feelings of panic and terror by the very people who bandy the terms about. 

Frankly, this real life situation about "terrorism" is reflected in-game. The Codex explicitly states that Cerberus has been branded a "terrorist and seditionist" organization by the Systems Alliance.

So, if the paragon players want to roleplay their Shepards as honest victims of the ANN propaganda, who are we, renegade players, to reproach them for that?

A fair point, but I don't think The BBW framed his accusation in those terms. His charge was that Cerberus were terrorists by their actions, which I still disagree with. 

If The BBW wants to amend his argument to the effect that he's referring to Cerberus as terrorists because that's what an in-game organization has classified them as, it's fine. It's certainly true and I wouldn't contend the point, because obviously the codex and other references in game would prove me wrong. That said, it still doesn't mean that the classification of Cerberus as such in-game is justified...it's just politics, as usual. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 août 2011 - 05:57 .

[alperez]

SandTrout wrote...

For a detailed version of Ieldra's Reason 6, see my first post on this thread, on the first page. It is my main reason for blowing up the base.

BTW< Alperez, I would like to say that discussing the topic with you is much more pleasant than most of the internet. You understand Ieldra's point, even if you disagree with her conclusions.

Sorry for how long it's taken me to respond, (unfortunately i had to visit a dentist that made the one from the marathon man seem like a nice guy).

Ieldra as always makes the points so well that its more to Ieldra's credit than mine why i understand them.

[marshalleck]

didymos1120 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Remember what happened to Kahoku?

He died of natural causes.

Indeed. Death is a natural result of being eaten by rachni. 

Actually, depending on the order you enter the bases, you can find his body with the thorian creepers.  Not that it matters, because the end of assignment text notes that he wasn't attacked by what he was caged with. Rather, he has needle-marks on his arm.

Oh really? I didn't know about the creeper business. That's awesome. And yes, you're right, I'd forgotten that he was likely dead or dying already when he was tossed to whatever creatures they left him with.

[Pulletlamer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

You're blatantly ignoring all the experiments they've done to other races in the galaxy:

Like rachni and thorian creepers, project overlord...

Which mean what? 

I didn't say Cerberus wouldn't sacrifice other races to the Reapers. Frankly, I'd be pleased if they did. I'm certainly going to sacrifice other races to the Reapers if I get the chance. Saving humanity is my goal and saving anyone else is just a side effect of that.

Towards that end though, I'm willing to work with anyone and everyone and I won't sacrifice them if that in any way jeopardizes humanity.

That's how Cerberus looks at it too. They're a rational group. Some would say, too rational.

Then don't say they would cooperate with aliens to begin with---you're constantly switching bewteen contradictroy points. <_<

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why would they have a problem with it? It apparently wasn't a bit enough issue for the Council for them to arrest Shepard or withhold Spectre status.

It wasn't a big enough deal for the Alliance to arrest Shepard either.

It seems like nobody has that serious a problem with it.

With exinction on their door I should hope the galaxy is willing to set aside their political differences and interests and forge a temporary alliance to defeat the forces arrayed to consume them all.

Cerberus are, despite their supposed biggotry and fanatacism, willing to put aside their immediate goals and work with their enemies. Even at their own expense at times.

So far as I can see Cerberus is the most reasonable bunch in the galaxy. The only ones willint to take a proactive approach and reach out to others as well as take the fight to the enemy.

Funny enough, they were about to arrest Shepard on sight, but Hackett denied the permission.

And we don't know if the rest of the galaxy is doing anything. Just because the Alliance refuses to help some puny colonies that aren't even a part their protective space, or the Council is denying the existence of the Reapers doesn't mean everything is just dead still.

Weapon advancements still happens all the time, ships are built to the brink of allowance and secrets are kept everywhere.

[alperez]

laecraft wrote...


This statement is quintessential Paragon. Tell me, why do trillions of people have to die so that you can uphold your personal morals? This is extremely egoistic. Not all life forms have the same moral system that you do. And I'm pretty sure that all of them value their own lives more than your morality. In fact, I'm sure that none of them give a damn about Shepard's morality as long as their lives are not in danger because of it.

Trillions of dead are not going to care that Shepard has a shiny image of a Paragon. The fate of the galaxy depends on your choices. You don't have a right for morality anymore. The stakes are too high to take such things into account. You're just one person. Your personal comfort, your peace of mind, your clean consciousness, your soul, your humanity simply don't matter. And if you choose all of those things over the lives of all advanced organic species in the galaxy, then you're the ultimate evil.

Technically oef course your correct my statement is qunintessentialy paragon, that doesn't make it untrue though.

In real life there are lines in the sand that some people would not cross no matter what, its what seperates a war criminal from a general just doing their job or a civilised society from an anarchic one.

If Shepard is supposed to be a representation of You the player, then surely Shepard should also represent your morality as well?

You say the galaxy won't care if Shepard loses his morality as long as he wins, i say in losing his morality everyone loses.

As for the fact that choosing my morality over the lives of every organic species well 2 points.

1. thats based on the assumption that the morality of the choice i make causes the deaths of those species (something you can't say with any degree of certainty based on the choice i make)

2. If it was a guranteed choice that destroying the base = death to everyone and my own morality still made me make the choice then you would be correct, the problem is that its not.

[Someone With Mass]

Pulletlamer wrote...

You're blatantly ignoring all the experiments they've done to other races in the galaxy:

Like rachni and thorian creepers, project overlord...

Not to mention nearly all their operatives are xenophobic (from Miranda's words), like Kai Leng.

Also they attacked a ship of the Quarian Fleet, killed it's crew and used it to infiltrate another quarian ship.

Just because they've cooperating on some specific situations with aliens  (and I wouldn't dare even say so, because they mostly gave the instructions and the aliens did the job, like Liara & Feron), doesn't mean they wouldn't dare to let them die or sacrifice them to the Reapers.

The one that is ignoring their past actions and their ideology here is you.

And let's not forget project DOORWAY and project TRAPDOOR.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

One Admiral denying a lower ranking Alliance officer the ability to go and arrest Shepard proves my point.

The issue is so non-existent for the Alliance that they'll let Hackett sweep the whole thing under the rug. They'll even let him visit Shepard's ship and agree to leave Cerberus alone so Cerberus can save their ass.

That's because Shepard is operating within Terminus space.

And the rest of the Citadel races jumped at the chance of ridding the galaxy of Cerberus.

Just because there aren't any public killings, sabotages or arrests doesn't mean nothing's going on, either.

[AlanC9]

alperez wrote...
If Shepard is supposed to be a representation of You the player, then surely Shepard should also represent your morality as well?

That's hardly necessary. Many of my Shepards have different moral outlooks from my personal one.

[alperez]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*snipped*

Balancing risk / reward, I decided keeping the Base was the greater alternative to blowing it up. Cerberus might not be too trustworthy, though they've devoted years and billions of credits to defeat the Reapers and they don't have galactic extinction as one of their goals. Therefore, I view them as an ally in the upcoming Reaper invasion.

Dave you'll have to forgive me for paraphrasing your post, but it was this last part that interested me and that i wanted to comment on.

I can completely understand and accept this argument and can see why it makes sense that this is the approach and choice you made.

I disagree with it completely, (the choice, not the logic or the reasoning) but that's only because i came to a different conclussion.

[marshalleck]

HomelessGal wrote...

Largely unrelated, but since we do have the board's foremost political, military, and terrorism experts in one place:

2171 - Pope Clement XVI assassinated via rosary beads coated 
with sodium nonacetate and dimethyl sulfoxide. Death attributed to age 
and heart failure. Replacement, Pope Leo XIV, has eschatological beliefs
in-line with militarizing humanity; forgiving attitude to salarians re:
genophage proves useful for strategic alliances against turians.

How does this work, anyway?

I'm not really sure. We know the salarians initially developed the genophage to be used incidentally on small populations, to function as a deterrent and disincentivize further aggression from the krogan. When the turians got hold of it however, they unleashed it in its full capacity on the entire population of the species, following their traditional military paradigm of all-out thorough warfare with the intent to defeat the opponent utterly and permanently. Perhaps the intent with Cerberus there was to drive a wedge between salarian and turian leadership by exploiting some remnant of bitterness over the matter? Or perhaps it was to buddy up with the salarians in order to benefit from their intelligence experts. I don't know.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 août 2011 - 06:22 .

[Pulletlamer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

...but they have and will cooperate with aliens when cooperation benefits them. I'm not saying or implying anyting contradictory.

I wouldn't dare say so much.

From wikipedia:

Definition:

"Cooperation or co-operation is the process of working or acting together, which can be accomplished by both intentional and non-intentional agents. In its simplest form it involves things working in harmony, side by side, while in its more complicated forms, it can involve something as complex as the inner workings of a human being or even the social patterns of a nation. It is the alternative to working separately in competition. Cooperation can also be accomplished by computers, which can handle shared resources simultaneously, while sharing processor time."

Now here's the interesting part:

"Even if all members of a group would benefit if all cooperate, individual self-interest may not favor cooperation. The prisoner's dilemma codifies this problem and has been the subject of much research, both theoretical and experimental. "

I'm no expert, but, working to defeat a same goal but for self-interest is not cooperation.

Which means, they would not be cooperating with aliens,they would be froming a temporary alliance with the aliens. They're still willing to go against them.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 02 août 2011 - 06:18 .

[AlanC9]

marshalleck wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Did you know that there is no universally agreed definition of terrorism? So it can still apply.

That's a load of degenerate subjectivist nonsense. Following this line of reasoning I could say anything I want about anyone and never have to justify any of it, because to me, what I said is perfectly accurate. 

You pedophile.

But if it's realy true that "'Terrorist' and 'terrorism' have become emotional buzzwords used to invoke irrational feelings of panic and terror by the very people who bandy the terms about, " then isn't BBW just following the current usage standard?

[Medhia Nox]

What I'd be interested in knowing, from those who destroyed the base:

How many of you factored Cerberus strongly into your decision?

[alperez]

marshalleck wrote...

It is certainly your right to believe in idealistic daydreaming and play your Shepard as such. I think it makes more sense to assume and prepare for the worst. Then when all the other aliens get together to hold hands and sing kumbaya, it will be surprise and big sigh of relief.

Because we know that's what always happens, right?

So by keeping the base your insinuating that your preparing for the worst, when in actuality your not, your preparing for the best.

The worst would surely be that you've found something incredibly powerful in the base, hand this incredibly powerful thing over to people you believed you coudl rely on, only to find that they screw you and instead of just worrying about the reapers, you now also have another problem, one that you actually strengthened yourself.