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Den of Delusions - The morality discussion topic

Débuté par Kaiser Shepard , juil. 30 2011 01:18

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#876
Seboist
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:06

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Barquiel wrote...

The Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization. Cerberus Operative Jacob Taylor and Shepard call them terrorists.

I suppose everyone uses the "wrong" definition? Stupid Mass Effect universe...


Being branded "terrorist" by an organization who sterilized an entire species and who lets an agent of theirs bomb a refinery to kill hundreds means Cerberus is doing something right.

#877
Medhia Nox
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:10

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@HomelessGal - in the two comics, do Cerberus find pieces of the Collector Base?

#878
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:11

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're basing their ideology and profile on a few remote words and events, while ignoring everything else.

Your bias has been evident from your first post, but you now jsut keep confirming it.


The whole "Cerberus aren't as bad as they look" gag is just wasted, because everyone knows what they've done.


Apparenlty, you don't.

Please, we already know you hate Cerberus with a passion. Your post show that you are unable to emotianlly distance yourself. Thus your entire line of reasnoning is tainted (and your posts confirm it)

#879
Barquiel
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:11

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Seboist wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization. Cerberus Operative Jacob Taylor and Shepard call them terrorists.

I suppose everyone uses the "wrong" definition? Stupid Mass Effect universe...


Being branded "terrorist" by an organization who sterilized an entire species and who lets an agent of theirs bomb a refinery to kill hundreds means Cerberus is doing something right.


Let's hear your perfect solution for the krogan problem.

#880
Guest_The Big Bad Wolf_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:12

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Seboist wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Systems Alliance and the Citadel Council have declared Cerberus to be a terrorist organization. Cerberus Operative Jacob Taylor and Shepard call them terrorists.

I suppose everyone uses the "wrong" definition? Stupid Mass Effect universe...


Being branded "terrorist" by an organization who sterilized an entire species and who lets an agent of theirs bomb a refinery to kill hundreds means Cerberus is doing something right.



You realize Saren made it look like Anderson's fault, right? So the Council didn't know that it was actually Saren's fault.

#881
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:13

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Let's hear yours for the reaper technological dominance....other than hard research?

#882
Guest_HomelessGal_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:13

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@HomelessGal - in the two comics, do Cerberus find pieces of the Collector Base?

Retribution and Invasion both have Cerberus make use of materials they acquired from the base, although it is just vague enough that it could be the intact base or salvage from its remains. A recent interview with Walters has him say that TIM "has the base beyond the Omega-4 relay", so take it as you will.

Modifié par HomelessGal, 02 août 2011 - 09:15 .

#883
Kaiser Shepard
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:16

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Medhia Nox wrote...

What I'd be interested in knowing, from those who destroyed the base:

How many of you factored Cerberus strongly into your decision?

Cerberus, as in the origanisation? Not so much.
Cerberus, as in the Man? Pretty strongly.

Never play into a Chessmaster's hands. Aside from that, it might be a decent power play to the rest of Cerberus, showing the grunts that TIM's wishes are not always our commands. I imagine the symbol of Shepard, Hero of the Citadel, is a stronger one than some Hidden Man anyway.

#884
Humanoid_Typhoon
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:17

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...


I expect you to accept my judgment is sound, and if you don't then you're a moron!

This is pretty much the renegade stance...:blush:


Ahh...you see, but you think that because you accepted my stance as reasonable, that I have to accept yours too.

I don't.
And for that you somehow percieve those that don't as sinister.

Ahh..you see,I stopped taking anything at all you say as relevent days ago.

#885
alperez
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:19

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Ahh...you see, but you think that because you accepted my stance as reasonable, that I have to accept yours too.

I don't.
And for that you somehow percieve those that don't as sinister.


This post really shows exactly what's wrong with Lotion's whole argument.

No matter what contrary evidence, viewpoint or even plain common sense approach you take in arguing with Lotion's pov, your bound to fail for the simple reason, that Lotion believes he alone is right.

In response all i can say is, no Lotion people who don't accept a different pov than their own aren't sinister, there are much better words that can be used to describe such people.

Modifié par alperez, 02 août 2011 - 09:20 .

#886
Someone With Mass
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:20

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Apparenlty, you don't.

Please, we already know you hate Cerberus with a passion. Your post show that you are unable to emotianlly distance yourself. Thus your entire line of reasnoning is tainted (and your posts confirm it)


And I should care, because...?

#887
Medhia Nox
Posté 02 août 2011 - 09:31

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@HomelessGal - well, default Shep for ME 2 was Renegade if I'm not mistaken.

@Barquiel: You're not asking me, but the Krogan "problem" is an interesting one. The "solution" would have been to never elevate the Krogan - they would have never achieved space-flight given their insanely volatile nature.

But - the past of the game is past - and the Council acted wrongly. They allowed fear and desperation to rule over them and convinced themselves that cruel and despotic actions were the only recourse - in this, they were like Cerberus is today.

Then - reeling after the war with the Rachni - they did it again with the genophage. Of course - it's callous to say - but since the technologically advanced species took the Krogan out of their natural habitat - they were responsible for controlling an invasive species.

While the genophage was a terrible idea - it did serve the same purpose we use for culling invasive species on our own planet.

I'm not sure why it was not possible - or, perhaps it was a learning experience - but why they did not force the Krogan back onto their homeworld without a genophage is beyond me. (and I'm talking right after the Rachni war - before the population of Krogan had expanded)

The krogan are incapable of space flight - they're a self-regulating cycle not unlike the Reapers themselves. They advance - then they die off. This time is was a nuclear winter - if the Krogan ever advanced beyond that - it would be biological/chemical weapons - beyond that, something else. The Krogan breed fast because of the ultra-violent nature of their world's habitat. Removal from that habitat should never have been an option.

Unless the Salarian mastery of science does not include biology - I am not sure why they didn't consider such issues as overpopulation by an invasive species. Of course - then we get back to desperation and fear causing irresponsible and despotic behaviors.

At the very least they could have forbid breeding females to leave Tuchanka.

===

So, now - I would simply send the Krogan back to their planet under the leadership of Urdnot Wrex (or Wreav) - give them the cure to the genophage - and allow their species to continue unharmed.

Under Urdnot Wrex - the Krogan species might evolve along moral lines as well as genetic and technological lines. They could overcome their natures - and, with civilization - breeding always declines. In a few hundred years the Krogan might be able to enter the galactic community on their own steam.

Under Wreav - the cycle of Krogan growth and self-annihilation continues. The galactic community never has to worry about the Krogan again because they are a self-regulating species (which all are in their natural environments).

So - the last cruel act I would suggest as the Council is - send all the Krogan home.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 août 2011 - 09:34 .

#888
Shimmer_Gloom
Posté 02 août 2011 - 10:56

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What is going on? Are we questioning the Reaper's, the people who likely created the mass relays in the first place, technological dominance? And we questioning the fact that Cerberus is a terrorist organization?

How did we get the game lore so twisted? How can we even have a decent conversation if we can't even agree to some basic fundamental facts of the argument?

#889
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:08

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alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Ahh...you see, but you think that because you accepted my stance as reasonable, that I have to accept yours too.

I don't.
And for that you somehow percieve those that don't as sinister.


This post really shows exactly what's wrong with Lotion's whole argument.

No matter what contrary evidence, viewpoint or even plain common sense approach you take in arguing with Lotion's pov, your bound to fail for the simple reason, that Lotion believes he alone is right.

In response all i can say is, no Lotion people who don't accept a different pov than their own aren't sinister, there are much better words that can be used to describe such people.


You can't force me to accept something by trying to make me feel guilty. You again whine and complain about me, when that time would be bette spent to work on your arguments.

I don't accept some things because of facts and logic dictate otherwise...not because I said it.

I do see logic in blowing up the base - but only if one starts from a few assumption that are flawed. A logicly sound conclusion, but still flawed on the end, as it's tainted from the start.

Hence why I can't accept your choice as "equal". It is not, plain and simple.
Unless some new evidence comes forth to convince me otherwise.

If you don't like it, you're welecome to leave the thread. I'm not forcing you to read anything of mine.

#890
Shimmer_Gloom
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:18

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@Lotion. There will come a time when you realize how pathetic 'facts' are in the face of real life. Objective Truth is nice ideal but it has no place in reality.

Reality is subjective my friend.

I hope I didn't break your fragile little mind.

#891
Humanoid_Typhoon
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:26

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
 my friend.

I'm not your freind buddy.

#892
Guest_laecraft_*
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:27

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I don't think anyone destroyed the base for the reasons not related to Cerberus. So far, I've seen only "they're evil," "I don't trust them," or "I blew it sky-high, lol, the look at TIM's face!"

There are plenty of people who destroyed the base for a simple, honest satisfaction of seeing TIM upset. "Who's the boss now?!" "Watch this, I quit!" "Oh how long have I waited for this moment" kind of reasoning. They don't like TIM, his authoritative and manipulative attitude, the way he's always in control of everything and doesn't share any of his long-term plans with you, the way he orders you around like you're one of his minions, as if you owe him your life, as if he OWNS you, and who cares that it's for the good of the galaxy when TIM behaves like he owns the place! Forget the Reapers - now is the time to show TIM who's in charge. It's not like the game gives you enough opportunities to do that. Extra cut-scenes with furious TIM!

I respect those people. They aren't trying to cover up their motives or justify them after the fact by some fake noble reason. They're simply enjoying the game. Extra content is always good.

Then again, in-game, they aren't fit to command. The galaxy would be doomed if the things were left to them; they'd pick some booze and some chicks and retreat to the edge of the galaxy to watch the mass destruction; when the Reapers finally get to them, they'd go down with a massive explosion, maybe even taking a Reaper or two with them, and kissing their LI with the unfolding brilliant sky in the background, too bright for the human eyes, before being consumed by a supernova. They like explosions, see. They're flashy.

Then there are people who honestly don't know what to do, but TIM's evil, so if he's upset by something, it must be good, right? And their teammates tell them what to do, too. All of the teammates disapprove of keeping the base afterwards. And the star is BLUE if you destroy the base.

This is settled, then. There's no need to think too much about it, once we figured out what the game wants from us, what it will punish and what it will reward. Besides, blue option always wins, right? There's no need for thinking over the choices. Just press that flashing blue button, and you're in for the gentle ride of win.

Then there are people who think that those who are called "terrorists" are the ultimate evil. There's nothing worse than being associated with people who are branded terrorists; the destruction of all advanced organic life in the galaxy doesn't even come close.

Never mind that Cerberus has never committed any acts of terrorism. The Alliance and the Council say that they are - it must be true. We aren't going to use our own brains to draw conclusions on our own. The government will tell us all we need to know. The alien government. Because such is the law. Cerberus is law-breakers. BAD. There's no need to think any further than this.

Never mind that a government, the morals, and the law are not a value in itself - they're simply instruments of coercion meant to protect the population and the society from destroying itself and collapsing; when the population is gone, the laws are meaningless, and the morals are useless. Would you like a "R.I.P. Milky Way, you were very law-abiding this cycle, we appreciate it" on the new gravestone in the Reapers' collection?

Besides, I've no doubts that the Reapers have their own government too, and they have laws that permit them the extinction of advanced organic life in the galaxy of Milky Way every cycle, and I'm one hundred percent sure that the Reapers declared Shepard a terrorist. So, are you going to stand down now, because you're acting against their law?

The alien government, namely Council, is not meant for humanity's benefit, but for the benefit of the three species in charge. And then some people would speak of "democracy." Wake up, what democracy? Three people rule the entire galaxy. The "lesser species" are not even represented.

When the Council makes a decision, they don't consult anyone. They don't answer to anyone. They just exchange glances and nods. The decisions they make might include: "gentle genocide" of your species, leaving your species to be wiped out by the unknowable alien force, moving their fleet here and there, starting or ending a interstellar war.

If you want your species' problems solved, you beg for an audience and wait humbly to be summoned, hoping that someone will pay attention to your plea. Maybe other species have no pride, no instinct of self-preservation - or maybe they lack the fleet, which is more likely. This is no democracy...it's the Empire.

And it's been working just fine for the aliens all that time, simply because it takes less time to make decisions when they're up to only three people. And the Spectres, the evil minions who follow the Emperors' every whim, sure are efficient at cutting the red tape.

Before that, it's been ONE person ruling the galaxy - the asari. If they'd been all right under the rule of asari for millennia, they'd be just fine under human dominance, too. We'll be benevolent to them - no worse than asari had been, anyway. They'd be even better under humanity than if they'd been left to the Council - they'd be alive.

The empire did a good job at giving a position in the Council to the species who become powerful enough to threaten it. Yet this position didn't give humanity any leverage. It's not enough. We can't even prepare the galaxy to the Reaper invasion. We need more power if we're to protect the galaxy in the future from the similar threats. The ultimate power would be sufficient.

The old Council proved their own incompetence. They nearly got the galaxy destroyed. They must be replaced by someone who can deal with the threat to galactic stability, and not ignore it. And I think humanity just fits the job description.

But the people who refuse to work with Cerberus would rather stand idly by and do nothing while trillions of people are being destroyed around us, because if we do anything, we'd be called "terrorists", and that would be BAD. We can't have that happen to our shiny Paragon image. Better let the galaxy die than have our reputation tainted. And advancement of our own species is BAD. And if humanity were to rule the galaxy, that would be just horrible. Worse that total extinction. Death can be reversed, but human domination is final.

Then there are people, the fearful ones, the "but what if!" kind of people.

What if Cerberus joins the Reapers? (not a single sign that they would, in all the previous games).

What if Cerberus fails the research, they're so incompetent? (We all learn from our mistakes, you know. The more experience you have, the less likely you're to repeat your mistakes. And if their research backfires, then Cerberus would be the first to pay the price and suffer the damage, so why do you care?)

What if Cerberus becomes indoctrinated? (No one is proofed against that, happens to the best of us, see the Arrival. You don't need a base for that, just a Reaper, and there are going to be plenty of them.)

What if they turn against you? The situation might become worse! Worse than the total extinction. It'd be, like, double extinction! We're going to die twice!

Then there's that argument, which is still all about Cerberus, "I'd have kept the base if I could give it to anyone but Cerberus. They're going to use it for evil!"

Whom, precisely, would you rather give the base to? The Council? You must really hate them, then. They're just going to declare that it's the geth tech. They'd wander in without protection and become indoctrinated. It would be a disaster. They don't even believe in Reapers, no reason to be cautious, and nothing you can say, do, or show them is going to convince them.

Maybe you'd rather give the base to the Alliance? They would just blow it up, because it's "an abomination" - whatever that means. And if they try to study it - see the Arrival. They've never dealt with such things before. They were never burnt by the fire. They'd put their bare hands right into it, just to check the temperature. They're going to build their research facility around a strange artefact. Cerberus' been through that. They're less likely to repeat their mistakes.

And even if the entire Cerberus becomes indoctrinated, they're still humans. You can kill humans with bullets, as Shepard proves again and again in ME3. It doesn't matter how empowered they are, they still go down when you shoot at them.

You can't kill the Reapers with bullets. We don't have a weapon to deal with them. We need something. Anything. We're not in a position to be picky. We're teetering on the brink of destruction here. We have only a few months left. Indoctrination of our first line of defense is acceptable price. The deaths of thousands is acceptable price. The tainting of Shepard's reputation is more than acceptable price - nobody dies, and Shepard suffers some isolation and a lot of hatred, but he'll endure. Their own tech, turned against them, would be just perfect. It's the thing that could save us. It's the only thing that truly "happens" in ME2 - we get our hands on their base. We can do nothing else to prepare to the invasion.

You don't even need to like Cerberus to preserve the base. Shepard sure doesn't - neither Paragon nor Renegade one. He issues a warning before he leaves - no matter what conversation options you choose. He's very hostile towards TIM. Doubtless he's already gazing into a divination sphere.

If Cerberus betrays us, it doesn't matter if they have the technology. We can still kill them. They're only organics - flesh and blood, easily destroyed. And intel leaks. Intel always leaks. Especially such highly volatile as Reaper tech. Cerberus will use it, and they will leave a trail, and they will be forced to consult someone else to unravel its secrets, and in this age of information, it will be all over the galaxy in no time. And it might be just enough to turn the tide of the war to our favour.

You will have to fight the indoctrinated anyway, whether you liked them and knew them as organics or not. You'll have to fight a lot of husks. The Reapers will turn plenty of organics against you. Indoctrination is their most insidious weapon, and you can't expect them not to use it. But before Cerberus goes down, if you preserved the tech, they can still save us.

Mind you, I'm relieved that even if Shepard blew it, Cerberus is still here to save the day and salvage some tech from the explosion. It's a good thing that the salvation of the universe does not depend on a single person, who can make grave mistakes like destroying the Collector base.

#893
Humanoid_Typhoon
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:30

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TL;DR
Also,please tell how the decision could not involve Cerberus seeing how the options are

Give it to them
Not give it to them

Also...I respect your faith in TIM and Cerberus,but the simple matter is you only see their failures,so how is it not logical to base a decision of that? You are given sufficient evidence to show that they are collosal failures,or at least always have near-misses.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 02 août 2011 - 11:39 .

#894
Medhia Nox
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:34

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@Iaecraft: So, what you're saying is - you don't agree with (and cannot understand) any other decision but your own. So everyone else is stupid.

One criticism though - you didn't use enough "logic" or "metagaming".

Edit: and come to think of it - if the Reapers did take into account the actions of species they destroyed - I'd love for them to say: "Wow, people who actually tried to do good." vs. "Typical craven animals." 

((Of course - neither group will lose the game - so what is going to be some galactic epitaph is pointless) ) 

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 02 août 2011 - 11:36 .

#895
Shimmer_Gloom
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:39

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
 my friend.

I'm not your freind buddy.


Wait, I was talking to Lotion.  I wasn't...

Oh.  I see what you did there.  Your humor is very understated.  I like it. 

#896
Humanoid_Typhoon
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:40

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@Iaecraft: So, what you're saying is - you don't agree with (and cannot understand) any other decision but your own. So everyone else is stupid.

One criticism though - you didn't use enough "logic" or "metagaming"

((Of course - neither group will lose the game - so what is going to be some galactic epitaph is pointless) ) 

This.

#897
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 02 août 2011 - 11:55

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Lotion. There will come a time when you realize how pathetic 'facts' are in the face of real life. Objective Truth is nice ideal but it has no place in reality.

Reality is subjective my friend.

I hope I didn't break your fragile little mind.


SOME things are subjective..to a point.
Others are not.

Objective Truth is not attenable if you dont' even try. It requires effort to mantain objectivity - most people won't even bother.

Facts are facts. The truth is out there.

#898
Shimmer_Gloom
Posté 03 août 2011 - 12:03

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Lotion. There will come a time when you realize how pathetic 'facts' are in the face of real life. Objective Truth is nice ideal but it has no place in reality.

Reality is subjective my friend.

I hope I didn't break your fragile little mind.


SOME things are subjective..to a point.
Others are not.

Objective Truth is not attenable if you dont' even try. It requires effort to mantain objectivity - most people won't even bother.

Facts are facts. The truth is out there.


The bolded text is an affirmation of faith.  Its a hope that there is something true out there in the den of lies that is the reality prepared for us.  Or did you not watch X Files?

There is a reason that 'objectivity' and 'truth' are philosohpical concepts.  Becuase they are debateble.

The moral of my story is that nobody can be 100% sure of their beliefs.  Unless they are religious tenets.  Which is one of the things that makes religion so atractive, it gives us something 'true' to hold onto while science and history are constantly being rewritten.

But now I'm off topic.

#899
Shimmer_Gloom
Posté 03 août 2011 - 12:05

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Anyway. To have a conversation, or debate with others you need two things:

To agree on the simple facts of the debate (and if it isn't agreed upon at the outset, find them)

And respect other people's opinion as being at least somewhat valid (regardless of if you agree with the opinion)

We seem to be lacking on both counts.

Modifié par Shimmer_Gloom, 03 août 2011 - 12:07 .

#900
Lotion Soronarr
Posté 03 août 2011 - 12:08

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

TL;DR
Also,please tell how the decision could not involve Cerberus seeing how the options are

Give it to them
Not give it to them

Also...I respect your faith in TIM and Cerberus,but the simple matter is you only see their failures,so how is it not logical to base a decision of that? You are given sufficient evidence to show that they are collosal failures,or at least always have near-misses.


Because:

A) they're not only faliures. EDI, Normandy2, Lazarus, human biotics are some of the fully sucesfull ones for starters.

B) Sheppard only gets called in to deal with a experiment gone wrong. He's not called to take a sctroll down a cerberus lab to see a experiemnt gone right. You have a number to compare to nothing.

If I decide to design and build my own boats..and I build 10 of them. 3 of htem sinks and I call you to help me pull them out of the water. Doee that make me a bad ship builder? You only saw the 3 that sank, so how could you tell?

C) Even when the experiment goes wrong, if the data is saved, the experiment is not a wash. Data is knowledge. Knowledge is the purpose of experiments.

D) We have been shown other factions are just as capable of f***-ups. So who's gonna research it? Do you think tehy have better chances?

E) Cerberus has been dealing with reaper tech longer than anyone, so they have the most experience with it. That makes them the best to actually do the research.
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