3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

lol if you build three boats that sink you are a really crappy shipbuilder. Boats need to at least float. At the very least.

This seems to be Cerberus's problem by the way. Sure we violate human and alien rights all the time... but look at the other stuff we do!

Its that first part that people have a problem with. So. Yeah. That was actually an excellent analogy Lotion!

No, youi actaully fail here horribly.

If I'm a self-thought ship builder, having 7 out of 10 boat designs ending up being sucesfull means I'm doing something right.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

TL;DR
Also,please tell how the decision could not involve Cerberus seeing how the options are

Give it to them
Not give it to them

Also...I respect your faith in TIM and Cerberus,but the simple matter is you only see their failures,so how is it not logical to base a decision of that? You are given sufficient evidence to show that they are collosal failures,or at least always have near-misses.

Because:

A) they're not only faliures. EDI, Normandy2, Lazarus, human biotics are some of the fully sucesfull ones for starters.

Sheppard only gets called in to deal with a experiment gone wrong. He's not called to take a sctroll down a cerberus lab to see a experiemnt gone right. You have a number to compare to nothing.

If I decide to design and build my own boats..and I build 10 of them. 3 of htem sinks and I call you to help me pull them out of the water. Doee that make me a bad ship builder? You only saw the 3 that sank, so how could you tell?

C) Even when the experiment goes wrong, if the data is saved, the experiment is not a wash. Data is knowledge. Knowledge is the purpose of experiments.

D) We have been shown other factions are just as capable of f***-ups. So who's gonna research it? Do you think tehy have better chances?

E) Cerberus has been dealing with reaper tech longer than anyone, so they have the most experience with it. That makes them the best to actually do the research.

I want you to read what I wrote,and then read what you wrote,then I want you to absorb what was said especially the part about the near misses,you base your argument against blowing up the base on Cerberus' potential sucesses,which besides the 3 that didn't have any chance of negative outcome,you as a player have yet to see,so tell me o master of all things logical,why I can't base my decision on what I as Shepard have seen.

What you seen has to be put into context. That's why.

You know Cerberus has had sucess in exerpiments. You know Cerberus had some "failures". You are only sent to see the faliures.
Knowing that, you cannot use only the faliures to base your judgement on, even moreso because you don't know the ratio.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

@Lotion. There will come a time when you realize how pathetic 'facts' are in the face of real life. Objective Truth is nice ideal but it has no place in reality.

Reality is subjective my friend.

I hope I didn't break your fragile little mind.

SOME things are subjective..to a point.
Others are not.

Objective Truth is not attenable if you dont' even try. It requires effort to mantain objectivity - most people won't even bother.

Facts are facts. The truth is out there.

The bolded text is an affirmation of faith.  Its a hope that there is something true out there in the den of lies that is the reality prepared for us.  Or did you not watch X Files?

There is a reason that 'objectivity' and 'truth' are philosohpical concepts.  Becuase they are debateble.

The moral of my story is that nobody can be 100% sure of their beliefs.  Unless they are religious tenets.  Which is one of the things that makes religion so atractive, it gives us something 'true' to hold onto while science and history are constantly being rewritten.

But now I'm off topic.

So, in absence of facts and good arguments you have now resorted to to attacking the defintions and concepts of "proof", "fact" and "truth", etc..?
Hm..why do I see this as a sign of desperation?<_<

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

TL;DR
Also,please tell how the decision could not involve Cerberus seeing how the options are

Give it to them
Not give it to them

Also...I respect your faith in TIM and Cerberus,but the simple matter is you only see their failures,so how is it not logical to base a decision of that? You are given sufficient evidence to show that they are collosal failures,or at least always have near-misses.

Because:

A) they're not only faliures. EDI, Normandy2, Lazarus, human biotics are some of the fully sucesfull ones for starters.

Sheppard only gets called in to deal with a experiment gone wrong. He's not called to take a sctroll down a cerberus lab to see a experiemnt gone right. You have a number to compare to nothing.

If I decide to design and build my own boats..and I build 10 of them. 3 of htem sinks and I call you to help me pull them out of the water. Doee that make me a bad ship builder? You only saw the 3 that sank, so how could you tell?

C) Even when the experiment goes wrong, if the data is saved, the experiment is not a wash. Data is knowledge. Knowledge is the purpose of experiments.

D) We have been shown other factions are just as capable of f***-ups. So who's gonna research it? Do you think tehy have better chances?

E) Cerberus has been dealing with reaper tech longer than anyone, so they have the most experience with it. That makes them the best to actually do the research.

I want you to read what I wrote,and then read what you wrote,then I want you to absorb what was said especially the part about the near misses,you base your argument against blowing up the base on Cerberus' potential sucesses,which besides the 3 that didn't have any chance of negative outcome,you as a player have yet to see,so tell me o master of all things logical,why I can't base my decision on what I as Shepard have seen.

What you seen has to be put into context. That's why.

You know Cerberus has had sucess in exerpiments. You know Cerberus had some "failures". You are only sent to see the faliures.
Knowing that, you cannot use only the faliures to base your judgement on, even moreso because you don't know the ratio.

But I can base it on the sucesses...which I have yet to see...right.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

This is exactly why anything you say should immediately be disregarded...you have made it quite clear you are beyond reasoning,and quite frankly have no idea what you are talking about.

[Ieldra]

To stay within the shipbuilding analogy:

The problem with Cerberus is not their failure rate. It is that it's their idea to test the floatability of a new ship by filling it with people and sending it out into a deep ocean, where anyone else would have used ballast and stayed near the coast until basic functionality was assured.

I think this is a great problem with the presentation of Cerberus. Even if you are a completely ruthless scientist, you wouldn't waste lives like that, even if only for practical reasons. And btw, the comparison with real-world scenarios in WWII is flawed, because there the death of the subjects was the point and any "scientific" - if you can call it that - benefits were pleasant side effects.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

@Humaniod_Typhoon

Meh, they claimed that the technical advances occurred in between ME1 and ME2. That disqualifies it from retcon status, and I just consider it a game mechanic though (like the biotic 'bolts' that act like physical objects), and largely ignore it for lore purposes, similar to ignoring space-ships making noise in sci-fi movies.

Seems like a stupid idea but my point still stands. How can you trust a guy with tech like what was at the Collector's Base if he does crap like that to you? In the military, you basically have no choice... in ME2, Shep was basically like a badass mercenary/James Bond that could make his own decisions.

You don't need to trust him in any general sense. All you need to do is have faith in TIM's desire to save his own butt.

What about that one dudes Jacob loyalty mission,they were there for 8+ years...I suppose this is just an isolated incident. Carry-on.

Given that he had it pretty snazzy on that planet, what exactly is strange there?


But really, all I see here is a a lot of irratioanl Cerberus/TIM hate. I can sorta understand where it's coming from - heck, Cerberus isn't something I'd tolerate, were it not for hte reapers.

However, all the reasons for not giving the base over are a load of rubbish.

TIM has NO reasons whatsoever to turn on you and EVERY reason to use the base agasint the reapers. Cerberus is an anti-repaer, pro-human organization. They have been working to thwart the reapers from day 1. They have been wokring with Shep agasint the Collectors, and very sucesfully.
TIM has proven to be more usefull than the Council in that regard.

Indoctrination? No one is safe from it and you're gonna have to face it sooner or later. Better sooner, on your own terms - you can learn how to fight it hopefully.

I can go on all day...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

You don't need to trust him in any general sense. All you need to do is have faith in TIM's desire to save his own butt.

That, and his ability to do so without things backfiring in the usual Cerberus way. 70 to 100% casualties most certainly isn't acceptable this time.

You what is kind of funny when people bring up the Cerberus success/failure rate the 3 successes(mostly were near misses) had no negative outcome (other then Shepard not being alive) they bring up Lazarus,EDI,and SR-2,two of those didn't have potentially galaxy shaking repercussions and their was pretty much no negative that could come from it,unlike their utter ****ups(Overlord)

Oh? Sez who? You?

EID didn't have possible negative reporocussions of going all Skynet?
Lazarus didn't have the possible negative outcome of a Sheppard Zombie apocalypse? How would you know?

And you can't calculate Cerberus sucess rate as you don't know the actual number of total experiments they run.
Neuither cna you say the exeriments were total faliures to begin with  -some of us have clearly demonstrated why some - like repaer IFF - are really a succcess.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

This is exactly why anything you say should immediately be disregarded...you have made it quite clear you are beyond reasoning,and quite frankly have no idea what you are talking about.

Thisi somethin you have made clear eons ago.

I really should put you on my ignore list....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What you seen has to be put into context. That's why.

You know Cerberus has had sucess in exerpiments. You know Cerberus had some "failures". You are only sent to see the faliures.
Knowing that, you cannot use only the faliures to base your judgement on, even moreso because you don't know the ratio.

But I can base it on the sucesses...which I have yet to see...right.

you have saw a few...which you conveniently forget.

Not to mention that the few you did see, ended up being a mighty advantage. Shep + Biotics + EDI + Normandy 2 = much whoopass.

[Someone With Mass]

I just love how people say that the Codex is biased and then proceeds to quote it like if it was the Codex of Infinite Wisdom.

[Someone With Mass]

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Big Bad Wolf wrote...

It's still terrorism. Seriously, Cerberus, if not terrorist, is definitely a criminal organization with no regard for life. NOT A GOOD REASON TO GIVE THEM THE BASE.

No, it's not terrorism. Giving them the base is the only reasonable course of action. There is too much at stake to just destroy it.

Stop letting fear guide you.

Akuze is a perfect example of why Cerberus can be trusted with the base.

/sarcasm

Ascension and Retribution are even better examples.

[King Minos]

If it weren't for Cerberus, would of not have biotics, I hope thy creat more 'accidents' to increase biotics in humans. I believe that was a good cause, if other species can do it, why not us? Us humans are not just gonna sit here a pray for it, us humans make it happen!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ironicly, Cerberuses agressive approach to research is just what the galaxy needs.

We don't have time to waste, we need results yesterday!


On another note, how hard would it have been for Bio to hire a few people to go trough their plot/story/script? Tell them you'll pay 5$ for every inconsistency/plot hole/ thing that doesn't make sese..
You'd be surprised to quickly you can improve on the script. The story is full of things that are there for drama, but make no actual sense - when it's perfectly possible to have both.

[Someone With Mass]

ThePwener wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

I didn't trust TIM with it, so I destroyed it. I don't make apologies for destroying it, I believe in what I did. However it's all irrelevant, TIM gets the tech regardless.

Ah, the almighty power of RETCON.

Whatever you think it means, it's wrong. 

TIM simply salvaged the remains of the Collector base if it's destroyed. That's not retcon, though I guess that's the only answer this forum can come up with the second people see something they don't like.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 03 août 2011 - 12:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

King Minos wrote...

If it weren't for Cerberus, would of not have biotics, I hope thy creat more 'accidents' to increase biotics in humans. I believe that was a good cause, if other species can do it, why not us? Us humans are not just gonna sit here a pray for it, us humans make it happen!

Yeah, because unleashing biotics they have no control over on the galaxy is just what we needed.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ironicly, Cerberuses agressive approach to research is just what the galaxy needs.

We don't have time to waste, we need results yesterday!


On another note, how hard would it have been for Bio to hire a few people to go trough their plot/story/script? Tell them you'll pay 5$ for every inconsistency/plot hole/ thing that doesn't make sese..
You'd be surprised to quickly you can improve on the script. The story is full of things that are there for drama, but make no actual sense - when it's perfectly possible to have both.

Mass Effect 2 had eight writers. They had miscommunications, just like they did in the first game. That doesn't mean they're bad.

Hell, they're a lot better than the majority of the fan material I've seen.

[dreman9999]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

I sometimes get the feeling BW is making this up as they go along. The books/comics ****** a lot of people off.... always.

The 'filler' nature of ME2's main plot, namely the Collector arc, makes me feel the same way. The way I see it, at the end of ME1 they probably only had just that, Revelation and the obvious endgame scenario that is the Reaper War to work towards.

Like the collecter plot is a filler. A filler plot would be the main character facing something completly different from his main quest. The collector arc was a "stop the reaper's plans plot" which was also ME1'S plot. ME1 plot generally was the introdution of a villian that you don't know his plans, chasing him, finding out his plans, then you had to stop the plans and the reapers. ME2 plot was generally the same except you didn't chase the villin's, you got ready to face the villian. The plot had you do manything for thecharacters for the game but that was a means to an end. You did it becauseit helped you on your main mission in the long run. And being that the collecter are pawns for the reapers, the plot stongly lies under "stopping the reapers" which is the point of ME plot.

[dreman9999]

Someone With Mass wrote...

King Minos wrote...

If it weren't for Cerberus, would of not have biotics, I hope thy creat more 'accidents' to increase biotics in humans. I believe that was a good cause, if other species can do it, why not us? Us humans are not just gonna sit here a pray for it, us humans make it happen!

Yeah, because unleashing biotics they have no control over on the galaxy is just what we needed.

That why the alliance try to have as many biotics taken in and train in the alliance. They are schools and training ground formed by and regulated by the alliance. The mass majority of human biotics is in the alliance.

[dreman9999]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ironicly, Cerberuses agressive approach to research is just what the galaxy needs.

We don't have time to waste, we need results yesterday!


On another note, how hard would it have been for Bio to hire a few people to go trough their plot/story/script? Tell them you'll pay 5$ for every inconsistency/plot hole/ thing that doesn't make sese..
You'd be surprised to quickly you can improve on the script. The story is full of things that are there for drama, but make no actual sense - when it's perfectly possible to have both.

The only plot whole in ME were only with Jacobs mission and Verren armor protection.<_<

Modifié par dreman9999, 03 août 2011 - 12:40 .

[dreman9999]

Saphra Deden wrote...

One does wonder why any of the geth in Project Overlord were armed at all. Oh well.

Comic book mindset.

Because they staff didn't have the numbers to rish going through the ship faulty ship and collecting every weapon.

[dreman9999]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yeah. they do all that with GIANT strings attached.  As soon as you consider the favor repayed, TIM pretty much turns on you.

When has he ever turned on you?

"He wasn't exactly forthcoming regarding the 'abandoned' Collector Vessel."

"That was necessary to guarantee mission success."

"No, it wasn't."

"Yes, it was."

That's very common in the military.

[Someone With Mass]

dreman9999 wrote...
That's very common in the military.

That's the problem. Cerberus is not a military like the Alliance. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
That's very common in the military.

That's the problem. Cerberus is not a military like the Alliance. 

Former Black Ops.. They basicly are.