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[Kaiser Shepard]

dreman9999 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

ThePwener wrote...

I sometimes get the feeling BW is making this up as they go along. The books/comics ****** a lot of people off.... always.

The 'filler' nature of ME2's main plot, namely the Collector arc, makes me feel the same way. The way I see it, at the end of ME1 they probably only had just that, Revelation and the obvious endgame scenario that is the Reaper War to work towards.

Like the collecter plot is a filler. A filler plot would be the main character facing something completly different from his main quest. The collector arc was a "stop the reaper's plans plot" which was also ME1'S plot. ME1 plot generally was the introdution of a villian that you don't know his plans, chasing him, finding out his plans, then you had to stop the plans and the reapers. ME2 plot was generally the same except you didn't chase the villin's, you got ready to face the villian. The plot had you do manything for thecharacters for the game but that was a means to an end. You did it becauseit helped you on your main mission in the long run. And being that the collecter are pawns for the reapers, the plot stongly lies under "stopping the reapers" which is the point of ME plot.

ME2 in a nutshell was as follows:

-Status quo ME1
-Aliens you've never heard of before in the previous game- Collectors - suddenly appear and kill Shepard
-Shepard is brought back to life by Cerberus to 'justify' being forced to work with them, two whole minutes later
-A whole lot of exposition, of the universe, arguably the best part of the game
-Collectors are conveniently done away with at the end of the episode/season
-Shepard proclaims he's flying solo again
-Status quo ME1, more or less

It is largely the way the Collectors are introduced and disposed of at the beginning and ending of the game that makes it feel so filler-ish. Now, if we had actually heard of them before, even if never seen, it would've felt like much less of an ass-pull. Thing is, the team created such a wonderful and large universe with the first game that there was truly no need to make up something to string everything together: we would've easily settled for another geth plot, something more in-universe like Arrival as the main plot, or some in-universe war/confict to show us more socio-political aspects.

Same goes for the Shadow Broker reveal: there's a rich cast of characters able to be it, warranting what should obviously have been a WTF-reveal. It still was in its own way, but not in a convincing one. The Shadow Broker that we got, the yagh, would've been more fit to be introduced as the pet Dragon, perhaps even the Starscream during the story.

Also, I would've liked for the Reaper conflict to have started sometime during ME2, as opposed to them being yet another entity that are containted withing just one game. The team claimed this would be their Empire, yet it didn't really deliver on the promised darkness of the title. Having the Reapers arrive during the endgame and having them turn everything SNAFU would've made for such a more impressive cliffhanger. Instead, we get one meal consisting of three courses, but which are presented as three largely stand-alone dishes.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, TIM assumed Sheppard was smart enough and serious about the repaer threat..that was obviously a big mistake.

TIM recognised Shepard as the hero in the space opera that is the ME-verse, which is why he decided that using you in his gamble was the best way to further his causes. Whether Shepars recognises him as the Chessmaster/Magnificent Bastard as well and calls him out on it, is up to the player to decide.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, TIM assumed Sheppard was smart enough and serious about the repaer threat..that was obviously a big mistake.

TIM recognised Shepard as the hero in the space opera that is the ME-verse, which is why he decided that using you in his gamble was the best way to further his causes. Whether Shepars recognises him as the Chessmaster/Magnificent Bastard as well and calls him out on it, is up to the player to decide.

I don't think it has anything to do with recognizing TIM as a Chessmaster, more putting one prioriteis straight (stopping the reapers over flipping TIM the bird)

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, with the Reaper not being fully dead and being able to trap them.
Sheppard shold have assumed trpuble. Both there and on the Collector ship.

And like I said for a millionth time - there's NO defense agasint indoctriation. You have to researhc it to find something.

If I was a scientists and knew the reapers were coming, I'd volounteer to study such a device.

And how many times do I have to tell you until you get it that there are alternatives to sending in hundreds of people inside a Reaper they think is completely out of the game?

Have they just used their brains like real scientists, Cerberus would've had a relatively whole Reaper to play with by now.

[SandTrout]

To be completely fair, SWM, it is not unreasonable to think that Indoctrination is an active function of the Reapers' systems (obviously incorrect at this point, but and understandable conclusion), and said DR is exhibiting no active functions, only a station-keeping mass effect field.

By the time that the researchers and TIM realized that indoctrination was occurring as a passive system, all researchers on board were 'compromised', in that they could be far enough along the Indoctrination path to serve as Reaper agents. It is not a guarantee, but bringing them out would represent an undue risk to TIM, meaning that he would not evacuate them once the fact that the DR could Indoctrinate was realized. A completely ruthless decision, and one you are entitled to disagree with, but an understandable one.

[SandTrout]

Where's the tension?

In BioWare's codpiece? /troll

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
It would also keep Shepard from becoming too powerful. It's bad enough if you play Paragon because going into ME3 you've got a vast army of geth, a galaxy working together in support of one another, and a massive information network that has dirt on every faction in the galaxy, headed by your friend/lover.

Where's the tension?

Says the defeatist...

[GreenDragon37]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Same goes for the Shadow Broker reveal: there's a rich cast of characters able to be it, warranting what should obviously have been a WTF-reveal. It still was in its own way, but not in a convincing one. The Shadow Broker that we got, the yagh, would've been more fit to be introduced as the pet Dragon, perhaps even the Starscream during the story.

Eh... I think Bioware handled the Shadow Broker reveal as well as they could have. No matter what you'd be disappointed when you saw the Broker because either 'he' would be something you'd already theorized or be so out of the blue you'd think it was a cop-out. A yahg at least expanded the universe and made for an intimidating enemy.

Personally I think the best option would have been to never reveal him at all. Have the broker scuttle his ship once Feron is located, forcing Shepard and company to escape. The fate of the Broker could then be left ambiguous.

It would also keep Shepard from becoming too powerful. It's bad enough if you play Paragon because going into ME3 you've got a vast army of geth, a galaxy working together in support of one another, and a massive information network that has dirt on every faction in the galaxy, headed by your friend/lover.

Where's the tension?

Let's see:

1. Letting the Rachni Queen go could influence how difficult it will be to unite the other races, who have good memories about the horror of the Rachni War.

2. Keeping the Genophage cure could produce some early friction between Shep and the Turians and Salarians.

3. Wiping the Heretic Geth could back-fire and they decide to flip back over to the Reapers mid-battle. Also, trusting the Geth will definitely cause a back-lash with the galactic community.

4. To Shep, the Council isn't doing jack-squat. So saving them proved to be pointless, except for giving Humanity a seat on the Council and maybe your Spectre status back (which they will revoke),

5. Letting Balak go could lead him to perform another terrorist act during a time in which it is definitely not wanted.

Yeah, even in a Paragon universe, there will still be tensions.

Modifié par GreenDragon37, 03 août 2011 - 05:58 .

[Therefore_I_Am]

I just hope it's a large portion of Cerberus that is indoctrinated/working with the reapers and not TIM himself. Have him seek refuge with, or be turned in by shepard.

I would cringe if he contradicts EVERYthing he said from ME2 when it shows him in some ME3 sequence.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 03 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[SandTrout]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

I just hope it's a large portion of Cerberus that is indoctrinated/working with the reapers and not TIM himself. Have him seek refuge with, or be turned in by shepard.

I would cringe if he contradicts EVERYthing he said from ME2 when it shows him in some ME3 sequence.

I'm of the camp that is assuming some strange gambit on TIM's part to undermine the Reapers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
And how many times do I have to tell you until you get it that there are alternatives to sending in hundreds of people inside a Reaper they think is completely out of the game?

Have they just used their brains like real scientists, Cerberus would've had a relatively whole Reaper to play with by now.

Like remote-controlled drones?

That' neither an efficient way to do research, nor always possible to do.

Not to mention the indoctrinatio nrange isn't known (but ti's not too big), so even if they hanged in their ship near the repaer and sent drones, tehy still could have been indoctrinated.

And lasty, cerberus alleged stupidity is a prodcut of bad writing and gameplay necessity.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And lasty, cerberus alleged stupidity is a prodcut of bad writing and gameplay necessity.

What?....if BW wants to paint them as stupid then they are stupid,you assuming they are this all emcompassing embodiment of Human advancement is out of refusal to accept they are incompotent,and self rationalization.

[alperez]

Wow, take some time off and when you come back the thread has moved on in leaps and bound.

One thing regarding the derelict reaper and TIm not giving shepard the info he knew about it though does give another reason why this might be the case.

The defence that pro Tim/cerberus fans put up is that all Tim is doing wrong is keeping info to himself that he feels if shepard knows ,may in some way actually harm the missions chances of success. which of course could be true.

But the problem here is just exactly what was TIM's idea of a successful mission, was it just the retrieval of the iff and any data.

Or was it even more sinister than that, was it just simply setting shepard up in order to test the collectors strength and that even failure on Shepard's part could still have been a mission success for TIM.

Considering what happened on Akuze, its not beyond cerberus to sacrifice someone for their own interests.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Eh... I think Bioware handled the Shadow Broker reveal as well as they could have. No matter what you'd be disappointed when you saw the Broker because either 'he' would be something you'd already theorized or be so out of the blue you'd think it was a cop-out. A yahg at least expanded the universe and made for an intimidating enemy.

Sure, it expanded the universe, but at the cost of what little versilimitude we had left. Well, that's not entirely true, but still.

Personally I think the best option would have been to never reveal him at all.

True, true.

It would also keep Shepard from becoming too powerful. It's bad enough if you play Paragon because going into ME3 you've got a vast army of geth, a galaxy working together in support of one another, and a massive information network that has dirt on every faction in the galaxy, headed by your friend/lover.

Where's the tension?

Finding ME3's deux ex machina in time to save all the races, so that everyone lives happily ever after?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

She is saying it's too easy to win,but that we should surrender and become reaper paste.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Wow, take some time off and when you come back the thread has moved on in leaps and bound.

One thing regarding the derelict reaper and TIm not giving shepard the info he knew about it though does give another reason why this might be the case.

The defence that pro Tim/cerberus fans put up is that all Tim is doing wrong is keeping info to himself that he feels if shepard knows ,may in some way actually harm the missions chances of success. which of course could be true.

But the problem here is just exactly what was TIM's idea of a successful mission, was it just the retrieval of the iff and any data.

Or was it even more sinister than that, was it just simply setting shepard up in order to test the collectors strength and that even failure on Shepard's part could still have been a mission success for TIM.

Considering what happened on Akuze, its not beyond cerberus to sacrifice someone for their own interests.

That makes little sense...If he wanted to test Collector stength, he could do it without sacrificing Sheppar, Normady Mk2 and EDI - which you could say are his most sucesfull projects that we know off.

He could have sent less important assests.. Or just "arranged" a meweting btween the turians/alliance and the Collectros and watch.

Nah, it's pretty clear TIM's goal was stopping the Collectors and finding more about the Repaers. I do agree that Sheppard could be expendable to him if the benefit was big enough in his eyes.

and really...sacrifcing someone for their own interest is pretty much what any government or large organization is very muhc capable of.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And lasty, cerberus alleged stupidity is a prodcut of bad writing and gameplay necessity.

What?....if BW wants to paint them as stupid then they are stupid,you assuming they are this all emcompassing embodiment of Human advancement is out of refusal to accept they are incompotent,and self rationalization.

I said "alleged".

Bioware is far from perfect and infalible and they have been know to do things that go contrary to what they said or tried to show, in the interest of gameplay and action. Anyone recal DA2 and the templars and mages? How wonderfull the fluff and the game clashed with eachother?

Comicly inept villains survive only in kids shows and comedies. In any normal setting, the price of incompetence is death. If Cerberus truly were incompetent, then they wouldn't have - couldn't have - survived as an organization.

What happened happened. but regardless of everything, success is measured by objectives achieved. The resources spent and the benefit gained.

I don't see the reaper IFF as a faliure at all - the team did what they were supposed to do befoire they died.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


That makes little sense...If he wanted to test Collector stength, he could do it without sacrificing Sheppar, Normady Mk2 and EDI - which you could say are his most sucesfull projects that we know off.

He could have sent less important assests.. Or just "arranged" a meweting btween the turians/alliance and the Collectros and watch.

Nah, it's pretty clear TIM's goal was stopping the Collectors and finding more about the Repaers. I do agree that Sheppard could be expendable to him if the benefit was big enough in his eyes.

and really...sacrifcing someone for their own interest is pretty much what any government or large organization is very muhc capable of.

Not everything always makes sense, yes of course he could have done exactly as you say and its much more likely that he wouldn't do what i suggest, it just doesn't rule it out either.

Its easier to test the collectors strength against an opposition you yourself have fitted out though and does make a certain kind of sense.

Shepard kitted out with Cerberus's advances (edi and normandy) and with what's supposedly a team set up for the exact purpose of defeating the collectors being shown to have no effect whatsoever on the collectors provides much more data than something you already know.

The collectors wiped out the original normandy easily, so what would it prove if they then wiped out a different alliance or council force, nothing you don't already know, but wiping out a technologically advanced force that was set up to deal with the problem gives you a completely different picture.

In game our knowledge of TIM's goals are given to us by who exactly?

Where else apart from the TIM or his subordinates are we given any information that what TIM says is the complete truth?

In fact isn't it true that in game we're shown that TIM only tells us what he wants to, or what he feels we need to know.

All i'm saying is that considering cerberus's and TIM's track record, not everything they appear to be is true and not everything we think about them is factual, what is factual though is what you say in your last 2 lines.

If it suits his purpose TIM is not above sacrificing anyone and organisations/governments are capable of sacrificing anyone.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


That makes little sense...If he wanted to test Collector stength, he could do it without sacrificing Sheppar, Normady Mk2 and EDI - which you could say are his most sucesfull projects that we know off.

He could have sent less important assests.. Or just "arranged" a meweting btween the turians/alliance and the Collectros and watch.

Nah, it's pretty clear TIM's goal was stopping the Collectors and finding more about the Repaers. I do agree that Sheppard could be expendable to him if the benefit was big enough in his eyes.

and really...sacrifcing someone for their own interest is pretty much what any government or large organization is very muhc capable of.

Not everything always makes sense, yes of course he could have done exactly as you say and its much more likely that he wouldn't do what i suggest, it just doesn't rule it out either.

Its easier to test the collectors strength against an opposition you yourself have fitted out though and does make a certain kind of sense.

Shepard kitted out with Cerberus's advances (edi and normandy) and with what's supposedly a team set up for the exact purpose of defeating the collectors being shown to have no effect whatsoever on the collectors provides much more data than something you already know.

The collectors wiped out the original normandy easily, so what would it prove if they then wiped out a different alliance or council force, nothing you don't already know, but wiping out a technologically advanced force that was set up to deal with the problem gives you a completely different picture.

In game our knowledge of TIM's goals are given to us by who exactly?

Where else apart from the TIM or his subordinates are we given any information that what TIM says is the complete truth?

In fact isn't it true that in game we're shown that TIM only tells us what he wants to, or what he feels we need to know.

All i'm saying is that considering cerberus's and TIM's track record, not everything they appear to be is true and not everything we think about them is factual, what is factual though is what you say in your last 2 lines.

If it suits his purpose TIM is not above sacrificing anyone and organisations/governments are capable of sacrificing anyone.

Now you'r reaching. S I said - tehre are better ways to test the Collectors. You say Shepprd and EDI..I say an alliance fleet or task force - they would be better to gauge the Collectors vessel strength.

Even more importatnly, Cerberus was drained by Shep and Normandy Mk2 - to risk them just to test the Collectors strenegth is idiotic. They are far more valubale in other roles... And TIM isnt' idiotic.

Lasty we know Cerberus goals - survival of humanity.

All this belief in TIM's alternate goals and movites is sparked by..what exactly?
I mean, I could jsut as easiyl say HAckett has ulterior motives. Or Mirnada. Or EDI..or heck..anyone. After all, what you know is what they tell you.

[Sisterofshane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


All this belief in TIM's alternate goals and movites is sparked by..what exactly?

By the fact that he tells you in the end of the game that the base will secure not only humanity's survival, but it's DOMINANCE.

He definitely plans to use it in more ways then to just defeat the Reapers.

Heck, a renegade Shepard will tell him not to let his "alterior motives" get in the way of the war effort!  And renegade Shep is pretty much all for human dominance.

[SandTrout]

By the fact that he tells you in the end of the game that the base will secure not only humanity's survival, but it's DOMINANCE.

This is not an alternate motivation. Dominance and chances of survival are directly related. Udina and Anderson are also seeking human dominance, though their realm of acceptable means is different than TIMs.

He definitely plans to use it in more ways then to just defeat the Reapers.

After the Reapers are defeated, and none of his plans is even possibly worse than what the Reaper will do.

Heck, a renegade Shepard will tell him not to let his "alterior motives" get in the way of the war effort! And renegade Shep is pretty much all for human dominance.

So is my Paragon Shepard, though he disagrees with TIMs means. As we understand them in ME2 and ME1 (from Kohoku), Cerberus's goals are mutually exclusive to the Reapers'. Cerberus's goals are not mutually exclusive to even a Paragon Shepard's, necessarily, although there are some self-hating xenophiles out there.

Apparently Cerberus turns on us in ME3, but we had no good reason to believe that they would in ME2, especially since TIM is at least as aware of the threat the Reapers pose as Shepard is.

Modifié par SandTrout, 03 août 2011 - 11:00 .

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Now you'r reaching. S I said - tehre are better ways to test the Collectors. You say Shepprd and EDI..I say an alliance fleet or task force - they would be better to gauge the Collectors vessel strength.

Even more importatnly, Cerberus was drained by Shep and Normandy Mk2 - to risk them just to test the Collectors strenegth is idiotic. They are far more valubale in other roles... And TIM isnt' idiotic.

Lasty we know Cerberus goals - survival of humanity.

All this belief in TIM's alternate goals and movites is sparked by..what exactly?
I mean, I could jsut as easiyl say HAckett has ulterior motives. Or Mirnada. Or EDI..or heck..anyone. After all, what you know is what they tell you.

I did say it was unlikely that this was in fact the motivation behind Tim's actions, but considering any scenario that doesn't show TIm or cerberus acting in the way you believe them to be you dismiss, i'm not surprised.

Secondly, considering tim's own explanation to Shepard when asked about council/alliance support, just how exactly do you think its possible or likely that Cerbeurs could have just organised an alliance fleet or task force to do the same thing?

In case you don't remember the whole reason we were supposedly working with Cerberus was that they were the only ones doing anything about the collectors, in fact when you try and gain other support you can't.

As for the resources being drained, again this is fact that you now know to be untrue, your told this in game by edi, only to find out post game that this info may in fact be incorrect, now no doubt you'll scream metagaming.

But if a fact you believe to be true is later proved untrue,then claiming it as a justification for your argument only proves your argument is incorrect to begin with.

We know cerberus's goals only because we're told them in game by someone we know is liberal with the truth.When someone you know tells you only what they want you to know, how can you know what they're telling you is the truth?

What i believe about Cerberus is irrelevant, whether i like them, hate them or believe they're evil inc. doesn't even enter the equation i've presented you with. In fact its what you believe about them based on the information you've received by someone you know to be liberal with the truth that's really the issue.

Your understanding of Cerberus is based on the belief that what TIM says or what his subordinates say is truthful, something that considering the sources is open to debate.

As for the others you mention, what i don't have at this point is an oppostite to disprove what they tell me, as of now all the info we have say's Hackett, Miranda or Edi are telling the truth as they know it to be, until i'm given an example where they are lying or liberal with the truth, i have no reason not to trust them,something that isn't true with TIM.