3618 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I'd like to think Humans are pretty good at the spy game,don't see how Cerberus could slip a few unregistered vessels through but the SA can't

It's more to the point that the SA would probably require regular progress reports and inspections to ensure that taxpayer money isn't being wasted. FTL comm bouys would take time to install, and the traffic involved with the entire setup would be more prone to being noticed. TIM had the advantage of working with fanatics, allowing him to require less oversight, and is set up to use quantum entanglement communications, where the SA is not.

Also, even if Cerberus is detected, they are just another criminal organization to most of the Terminus, and their presence would not have the possibility of inciting a war, like the pressance of a confirmed SA vessel would.

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

When has he actualy lied?

"[Liara T'soni]'s on Illium. My sources say that she's working for the Shadow Broker. If so, she can't be trusted."

Now, I'm willing to concede TIM may have been selectively quoting from his stupid and wrong sources there, but even if that's what was going on, he still knew perfectly damn well that Liara wanted nothing to do with the SB that didn't involve screwing him over or, preferably, killing him.  That's firmly out of "withholding unecessary information" territory and well within the borders of "deliberately giving you the wrong idea" land.  classify it however you like within the taxonomy of lies, but it's still a lie.

And assuming he did lie, how does that make everything else he said a lie?

Well, it obviously doesn't.  Equally true however is that that doesn't make everything else that comes out of his mouth the truth.  We can only be sure of those things which are corroborated by other sources, and then only if we're sure that source of information is accurate.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 août 2011 - 05:47 .

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

The only thing holding Aria to any promise of future cooperation is Aria's own sense that future dealings with Shepard/Alliance are more profitable than having proprietary access to the CB tech.

There is greater reason to believe that Aria would use proprietary access to the CB tech in order to consolidate power in the terminus, and from there she poses a very real threat to Citadel Space in general and Humanity specifically. Aria is actually in a position to consolidate political power in the Terminus and form a true state, where TIM does not have that capability (discussed earlier in the thread).

TIM is know for releasing data to the Alliance as soon as he can find a less than suspicious means to do so (Ascension) because the Alliance is the best avenue for Cerberus to achieve its goals. Aria would keep a stranglehold on her monopoly of the CB as long as possible because of the kind of political leverage it provides her. There is know reason for her to judge that the debts she owes Shepard would cause her to allow the Alliance access to the CB. To the contrary, the best that we are likely to get from her based on those debts is select pieces of technology that she can pick and choose, while she keeps the best for herself.

It was just wishful thinking -- no, letting Aria even know about the base would be BAA-AAA-AAA-AAA-AAD.

And, also apart of one of my reasons to destroy the base.  The alliance almost keeps TIM in check.  It helps humanity to hold onto important allies by giving us a "moral" face.  Cerberus does the dirty work, but humanity can officially deny involvement.

Giving the CB to TIM could potentially tip the scales of power (between Cerberus and the Alliance) in cerberus' favor.  And I'm not too convinced that Humanity is at a stage yet where we can maintain an isolationist position and a dominant position within the galaxy at the same time.  Humanity rises up, but is then brought down by the combined forces of the galaxy.

I can imagine the war conference with the councilors now...

Shep:  We have it, our secret weapon to defeat the Reapers!

Turian Councilor: Just how, exactly did you come to acquire this knowledge?

Shep: Cerberus found it on the Collector Base.

Turian Councilor:  Ah, yes, "Collector Base".  We have dismissed this claim.

Shep: Look, you guys are just going to have to take what I have on faith...

Asari Councilor:  Try to see it from our point of view.  When you defeated Saren, you were working for us.  Now you
                               are nothing more then a terrorist.  How can we trust you?

*Anderson punches Udina, Shepard punches reporter*

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I'd like to think Humans are pretty good at the spy game,don't see how Cerberus could slip a few unregistered vessels through but the SA can't

It's more to the point that the SA would probably require regular progress reports and inspections to ensure that taxpayer money isn't being wasted. FTL comm bouys would take time to install, and the traffic involved with the entire setup would be more prone to being noticed. TIM had the advantage of working with fanatics, allowing him to require less oversight, and is set up to use quantum entanglement communications, where the SA is not.

Also, even if Cerberus is detected, they are just another criminal organization to most of the Terminus, and their presence would not have the possibility of inciting a war, like the pressance of a confirmed SA vessel would.

Reporting in and getting inspected are things that can be waived if they potentially endanger the mission.
The Salarians have the STG, the council has the Spectres, the Asari have the Commandos (all forms of special forces).  I'm sure the alliance has some method/special force tasked with espionage and intelligence.

The only advantage cerberus would have would be potential funds and the possibility of being detected starting a war.

[SandTrout]

I just realize that people put a lot of faith in the STG, when the only operation that we have seen (Vermire) went completely to hell, and the ones that we've heard about from Mordin had their own rough spots, Yet Cerberus is portrayed as being the incompetent boobs, with a better track record than the STG has. Hell, the only 'Failures' that Cerberus suffered in ME1 were 'Shepard Caused Disasters', and we all know how difficult it is to protect against those.

I'm not saying that the STG are incompetent, just pointing out the discrepency.

@Sisterofshane,

The Alliance has Cerberus, rogue or not.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

I just realize that people put a lot of faith in the STG, when the only operation that we have seen (Vermire) went completely to hell, and the ones that we've heard about from Mordin had their own rough spots, Yet Cerberus is portrayed as being the incompetent boobs, with a better track record than the STG has. Hell, the only 'Failures' that Cerberus suffered in ME1 were 'Shepard Caused Disasters', and we all know how difficult it is to protect against those.

I'm not saying that the STG are incompetent, just pointing out the discrepency.

@Sisterofshane,

The Alliance has Cerberus, rogue or not.

I'm assuming that's because the STG has been around a lot longer, and when their mission was a success, it was most likely not blasted all over the extranet.
You know, "if you do things right, it's almost as if you had done nothing at all" type things that I think the STG would excel at.

So yes, Cerberus may not be quite so incompetent, but we know they rush headfirst into situations without really thinking about some of the consequences (or at least TIM sends his team into situations without CARING about the consequences).  I don't think the STG has that problem.

[SandTrout]

Cerberus qualifies for the 'successes are not advertised' defense as well, though, and we still know OOC of at least some of their successes. It is still a double-standard, IMO.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Cerberus has a track record of their reach exceeding their flexibility grasp.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 04 août 2011 - 06:12 .

[SandTrout]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Cerberus has a track record of their reach exceeding their grasp.

And so does the STG, from what we have seen, not to mention their biggest case of 'Reach-Grasp' principal: The Krogan.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Cerberus has a track record of their reach exceeding their grasp.

And so does the STG, from what we have seen, not to mention their biggest case of 'Reach-Grasp' principal: The Krogan.

I never meant for that to be a defense to the STG,just to clarify.

Actually isn't giving the base to Cerberus kind of the same thing as uplifting the Krogan/

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 04 août 2011 - 06:17 .

[SandTrout]

And mine wasn't necessarily meant as a defense of Cerberus, but an illustration of a double-standard.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

...ugh *cough*

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Cerberus has a track record of their reach exceeding their grasp.

And so does the STG, from what we have seen, not to mention their biggest case of 'Reach-Grasp' principal: The Krogan.

Ah. yes, but it wasn't the STG (in and of itself) who caused the whole krogan-debaucle in the first place.
It may seem really awful, but sometimes a bit of what Mordin says rings true.    Was it an option to face defeat at the Rachni? Not really, no.  Did the Krogans deserve the planets they got as "concessions"?  Yes.  Could we have predicted that it would cause a violent population explosion?Maybe.  Should the Krogan have begun a violent expansion? In retrospect, I think most of them would have said "no". The genophage feels wrong, but would it have been better to exterminate the Krogan?  I think not.

Cerberus seems to cause problems as they go, while the STG seems to try to correct them.
Anybody have any specific examples (for/against) ?
I'm really too tired to go digging them up.*

*Edit: As evidenced by the fact that I am using the wrong punctuation.  Now fixed

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 04 août 2011 - 06:27 .

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

And mine wasn't necessarily meant as a defense of Cerberus, but an illustration of a double-standard.

It's only a double-standard if you use the argument specifically for giving the base to STG, but use it against giving it to TIM.

And again, competency is a matter of relevance.  Some people believe that Cerberus is competent, and some people feel that they are not.  Same goes for STG.

AND competency tends to have a scale.  One group can be labeled more/less competent than another, but you can still consider both to be "incompetent"

[SandTrout]

Was it an option to face defeat at the Rachni? Not really, no. Did the Krogans deserve the planets they got as "concessions"? Yes. Could we have predicted that it would cause a violent population explosion?Maybe. Should the Krogan have begun a violent expansion? In retrospect, I think most of them would have said "no". The genophage feels wrong, but would it have been better to exterminate the Krogan? I think not.

This is an interesting point that is somewhat separate from judging the competence of Cerberus vs the STG, but there is an interesting comparison between uplifting the Krogan and giving TIM the CB. In both cases we were facing annihilation in the face of a notably superior force. In both situations, the solution was giving advanced technology to an organization with highly questionable goals/motives that would come into effect after the conflict was over. I have not yet considered all the implications from this parallel, but I do find it potentially intriguing.

And again, competency is a matter of relevance. Some people believe that Cerberus is competent, and some people feel that they are not. Same goes for STG.

Actually, STG is generally assumed, among the community, to be competent, and I have not seen anyone else on the forums question the validity of this assumption, and I only just realized it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

When has he actualy lied?

"[Liara T'soni]'s on Illium. My sources say that she's working for the Shadow Broker. If so, she can't be trusted."

Now, I'm willing to concede TIM may have been selectively quoting from his stupid and wrong sources there, but even if that's what was going on, he still knew perfectly damn well that Liara wanted nothing to do with the SB that didn't involve screwing him over or, preferably, killing him.  That's firmly out of "withholding unecessary information" territory and well within the borders of "deliberately giving you the wrong idea" land.  classify it however you like within the taxonomy of lies, but it's still a lie.

So? His scource could be wrong...Lord knows that happens.
That's not a lie then - he's telling you what he belives to be the truth.

And assuming he did lie, how does that make everything else he said a lie?

Well, it obviously doesn't.  Equally true however is that that doesn't make everything else that comes out of his mouth the truth.  We can only be sure of those things which are corroborated by other sources, and then only if we're sure that source of information is accurate.

The same holds true for everyone anyone else in the game said.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

When has he actualy lied?

"[Liara T'soni]'s on Illium. My sources say that she's working for the Shadow Broker. If so, she can't be trusted."

Now, I'm willing to concede TIM may have been selectively quoting from his stupid and wrong sources there, but even if that's what was going on, he still knew perfectly damn well that Liara wanted nothing to do with the SB that didn't involve screwing him over or, preferably, killing him.  That's firmly out of "withholding unecessary information" territory and well within the borders of "deliberately giving you the wrong idea" land.  classify it however you like within the taxonomy of lies, but it's still a lie.

So? His scource could be wrong...Lord knows that happens.
That's not a lie then - he's telling you what he belives to be the truth.

Mass Effect: Redemption

He damn well knows Liara isn't working for the Broker.

[Sebby]

I think the whole "Liara is working for the shadow broker" bit is an oversight the writers missed after several rewrites. The whole thing doesn't make any sense considering Shepard never confronts her about it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Seboist wrote...

I think the whole "Liara is working for the shadow broker" bit is an oversight the writers missed after several rewrites. The whole thing doesn't make any sense considering Shepard never confronts her about it.

It's obviously a lie on TIM's part, so you don't immediately have another source of information to replace him with.

[The Elder King]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What use would Liara have been at that point? You'd just go and meet her and she'd say she was too busy to join you.

The fact that Liara doesn't want to go with Shepard doesn't justify TIM for lying. He could've said that she was too busy. Or he could've said the truth (and he probably knew tre truth).

Modifié par hhh89, 04 août 2011 - 04:39 .

[Sebby]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I think the whole "Liara is working for the shadow broker" bit is an oversight the writers missed after several rewrites. The whole thing doesn't make any sense considering Shepard never confronts her about it.

It's obviously a lie on TIM's part, so you don't immediately have another source of information to replace him with.

Pray tell what info Liara could have provided beyond where to start looking for Thane and Samara while fixated on going after the broker? TIM also never raises any objection to Shepard going to the Council and Alliance for info/help, in fact he encourages it.

Even aside from this issue, it clear they didn't know what to do with Liara in ME2. I never saw a reason why she shouldn't have been a squadmate in the main game.

[Sebby]

Oh and another important thing to mention is that Liara actually speaks in a favorable tone regarding Cerberus at the end of LOTSB ("they brought you back and now Feron!"), which makes the whole issue even more dubious.

[SandTrout]

@seboist,

The obvious (meta-gaming) answer to why Liara wasn't a main squad member would be to keep her alive for ME3. I get the feeling that was not the kind of answer you were looking for though.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote..

So? His scource could be wrong...Lord knows that happens.
That's not a lie then - he's telling you what he belives to be the truth.

Mass Effect: Redemption

He damn well knows Liara isn't working for the Broker.

I actually skimmed trough the comics and can't say I liked them. Crappy writing.
We even know comic writers made a few lore mistakes..so..

I'll stick with the game as my main source of info.