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Den of Delusions - The morality discussion topic


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#1301
Shimmer_Gloom

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
 There is a reason the AK47 is the world's premier assault rifle. And it isn't because it is deadly, it's because it is reliable.

The AK-47 isn't exactly the premier assault rifle,thats kind of like saying the Toyota Corolla is America's premier car...


Eh.  It's more like the Ford truck of Assualt Rifles.  Obviously not top of the line.  Never as sexy as a Porsche.  But it has a place in history and is still used today.

Lets put it this way.  Its the Assualt Rifles that has the highest kill count.  And it's relieability as an infantry weapon is as much fact as it is legend.

#1302
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
 There is a reason the AK47 is the world's premier assault rifle. And it isn't because it is deadly, it's because it is reliable.

The AK-47 isn't exactly the premier assault rifle,thats kind of like saying the Toyota Corolla is America's premier car...


Eh.  It's more like the Ford truck of Assualt Rifles.  Obviously not top of the line.  Never as sexy as a Porsche.  But it has a place in history and is still used today.

Lets put it this way.  Its the Assualt Rifles that has the highest kill count.  And it's relieability as an infantry weapon is as much fact as it is legend.

There is a saying..."Anyone using an AK-47 can't afford an M-16"

And the F-150 is the premier pick up truck...I'm a Chevy guy myself but I can recognize the the F-150 earned its place.

ON topic:"I don't trust Cerberus" will never be a good enough reason for the people that do,but it's still more then enough reason for most people.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 05 août 2011 - 06:16 .


#1303
Shimmer_Gloom

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
 There is a reason the AK47 is the world's premier assault rifle. And it isn't because it is deadly, it's because it is reliable.

The AK-47 isn't exactly the premier assault rifle,thats kind of like saying the Toyota Corolla is America's premier car...


Eh.  It's more like the Ford truck of Assualt Rifles.  Obviously not top of the line.  Never as sexy as a Porsche.  But it has a place in history and is still used today.

Lets put it this way.  Its the Assualt Rifles that has the highest kill count.  And it's relieability as an infantry weapon is as much fact as it is legend.

There is a saying..."Anyone using an AK-47 can't afford an M-16"


And I say two Assualt Rifles are better than one.  Regardless of quality.  :)

#1304
Sisterofshane

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

See, I don't see this as being about Cerberus so much as the 'every advantage they can get' vs 'every advantage I trust.'

There is wisdom is judging allies on their trustworthyness. On using weapons that are not only deadly, but RELIABLE. There is a reason the AK47 is the world's premier assault rifle. And it isn't because it is deadly, it's because it is reliable.

In war, it isn't always about who can grab as many weapons as much as it is about using those weapons in a way that maximizes effectiveness.

So, while giving Cerberus the CB could potentially give you an asset you would not otherwise have... there is no GUARANTEE that the asset will be particularly useful to you once THEY have it.

Think about it this way. In WWII the Chinese were at war with Japan. They were an ally of the US. So was Russia. But we wouldn't necessarily give either of them nuclear technology.

Same with Cerberus. They are not 100% trustworthy by any measure.



 And to take this point further,  the same goes for Shep if CB is given to TIM.
Other species would know that we are giving potentially dangerous (to them) tech to TIM, and they might not trust us enough to stand with us against a Reaper invasion.
Seeing as how ME3 seems that we will be visiting all these "homeworlds", I'm assuming the reason for doing so is to gather allies to assemble against the Reapers.  They might see what we did as being against them.  So giving TIM the base inherently stands to hamper our war effort (no allies = lost war).
So any possible advantage we could gain from CB would be at the possible loss of an advantage (allied galactic forces), even if as Shep you completely trust TIM.

EDIT: Potentially confusing sentence FIXED

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 05 août 2011 - 06:24 .


#1305
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
And I say two Assualt Rifles are better than one.  Regardless of quality.  :)

That's a given.

Rule #1: Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all
of your friends who have guns.

#1306
Shimmer_Gloom

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@Sister: The first sentence sounds like you disagree. But the rest of the reply seems to support my claims of 'reliability over perceived gain.' Is slightly confused.

#1307
Shimmer_Gloom

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shimmer_Gloom wrote...
And I say two Assualt Rifles are better than one.  Regardless of quality.  :)

That's a given.

Rule #1: Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all
of your friends who have guns.



And make sure one of those guns is a Thanix.  :D

#1308
Sisterofshane

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@ Shimmer sorry! Not disagree, just adding upon! Trust (or lack there of) of one's allies would definitely affect any future war effort.

#1309
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Sisterofshane wrote...

@ Shimmer sorry! Not disagree, just adding upon! Trust (or lack there of) of one's allies would definitely affect any future war effort.

I think we can agree 1000 tiny guns>1 huge gun

#1310
Shimmer_Gloom

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@Sister: lol okay then we are in agreement. See what I mean about trusting your allies? United front people!

#1311
Homebound

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watch how keeping the collector base helps you in no way, shape and form. :D

#1312
goofyomnivore

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Other species would know that we are giving potentially dangerous (to them) tech to TIM, and they might not trust us enough


How would they know? Let alone believe little ole Cerberus made it through and defeated the Collectors on the other side of the Omega-4-Relay? As for ME3, that is speculation, and I'm speculating they will care more about the immediate threat(Reapers) than they will about Cerberus and my association with them.

There are very little universal facts around this choice. Most arguments are based off assumptions and intuitions. Here is a piece of my assumption/justification.

If Cerberus thinks the Reapers are cool and joins their side. They will probably get the tech they wanted anyways. I think the bigger betrayal would be TIM denying the technology of the base to everyone/Shepard. Rather than him using it since he would get similar/better tech anyways if he betrayed. I don't see the Collector Base being a large factor involving the choice of betraying or not betraying. I feel like when I blow it up that I'm denying myself that tech more than TIM, because if TIM is going to switch sides he will get his hands on it anyways in some form.

I'm not on the Cerberus bandwagon either. In fact I hope in ME3 we can dismantle it, absorb it back into the Alliance, or whatever. Ideally reabsorbed into the Alliance. They need each other. Alliance needs Cerberus' backbone and Cerberus needs Alliance regulating. I don't really like TIM the person, nor agree with many of his long term goals/methods, but I don't consider him a threat/enemy when the Reapers on are the march. I feel that base is worth the risk despite my feelings on Cerberus or TIM.

Basically here is what I always get out of this debate:
I assume that the tech is invaluable and outweighs any threat TIM could/may pose. Others assume that the tech isn't invaluable and it doesn't outweigh any threat TIM could/may pose.

They're assumption. Both could be wrong, both could be right, one could be right, and the other wrong. We don't know right now.

Modifié par strive, 05 août 2011 - 07:48 .


#1313
atheelogos

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TIM joining the Reaper? My own theory is that only part of Cerberus is indoctrinated. I think TIM is still on our side and in the right hands the base might still be of use.

#1314
Humanoid_Typhoon

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I don't think TIM himself is stupid enough to get himself indoctrinated,but who knows,those Cerberus types always find a way.

If you will forgive a meta-game,they say he has alterior motives,since his obvious goal is Cerberus/Human dominance,those alterior motives could pretty much mean anything,he could be trying to steal christmas for all we know...

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 05 août 2011 - 08:16 .


#1315
Ieldra

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

See, I don't see this as being about Cerberus so much as the 'every advantage they can get' vs 'every advantage I trust.'

There is wisdom is judging allies on their trustworthyness. On using weapons that are not only deadly, but RELIABLE. There is a reason the AK47 is the world's premier assault rifle. And it isn't because it is deadly, it's because it is reliable.

In war, it isn't always about who can grab as many weapons as much as it is about using those weapons in a way that maximizes effectiveness.

So, while giving Cerberus the CB could potentially give you an asset you would not otherwise have... there is no GUARANTEE that the asset will be particularly useful to you once THEY have it.

That would be a compelling argument - if we had weapons that worked reliably against the Reapers. Hey, it would be an argument, though less compelling, if we had any weapons that worked against the Reapers AT ALL!

But we haven't. That's really the main point about keeping the base. We haven't got the slightest idea how to defeat a Reaper. We don't even know if the several fleets in ME1 were decisive for ONE Reaper or whether Sovereign made an epic tactical blunder.

I ask: how do you propose to defeat the Reapers? If you can give me ONE reliable way, I'll shut up about keeping the base. Simply claiming "there will be another way" is wishful thinking. As long as we've got *nothing* against the Reapers, we cannot afford to waste even the slightest chance to improve the odds. And the base in the hands of Cerberus is an improvement over a non-existent base.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 août 2011 - 08:17 .


#1316
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Ieldra2 wrote...
That would be a compelling argument - if we had weapons that worked reliably against the Reapers. Hey, it would be an argument, though less compelling, if we had any weapons that worked against the Reapers AT ALL!


That would imply we couldn't kill sovvy,but umm...we did.:mellow:

#1317
Lotion Soronarr

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You still think Cerberus watns to kill off all other aliens? Thats a load of bull.


Yeah. It's more than likely a necessity to achieve dominance over other species by killing a lot of them and weaken their infrastructures.

And still. It's a very dangerous biological weapon.


No, it's not a necessity and there's nothing even hinting at that.
The Cerberus operative Shep met in ME2 are all alien-friendly. TIM himself shows no alien hate.

#1318
Humanoid_Typhoon

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You still think Cerberus watns to kill off all other aliens? Thats a load of bull.


Yeah. It's more than likely a necessity to achieve dominance over other species by killing a lot of them and weaken their infrastructures.

And still. It's a very dangerous biological weapon.


No, it's not a necessity and there's nothing even hinting at that.
The Cerberus operative Shep met in ME2 are all alien-friendly. TIM himself shows no alien hate.

Well,how does one establish human dominance?

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 05 août 2011 - 08:24 .


#1319
goofyomnivore

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TIM himself shows no alien hate.


Have you ever take an alien to the "terminator" fight? If you question his motives, an alien teammate will chime in and give their opinion. TIM pretty much tell them to stfu because they're an alien, and they wouldn't understand.. It sounded very racist/specie-st/whatever to me anyways.

#1320
Lotion Soronarr

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Sisterofshane wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

I have to point this out again - what exactly is the probablility that we will find what we need within such a short time frame?


what time frame? Shep doesn't know when the reapers will arrive when the decision happens. It could be motnhs..it could be years.
We don't know. But we have to try anyway.

No, we cannot say what we will find nor how long will it take. We may find something incredible within weeks...or not.
You'll never know if you don't try.. and you're unlikely to win if you don't use every resource at your disposal.


The point is practicality.  How much did we gain from Sovereign?  According to you, not enough to win the war.  What did we get from the derelict reaper? An IFF.  That's it.  All of these things took a significant amount of time to research and develop relative to their usefulness.

And is it more likely that we will find crucial knowledge about the Reapers on the collector base, or crucial knowledge on the collectors (who are no longer a threat)?

Besides, in a few of my playthroughs, I play arrival before I play SM (totally possible).  In arrival Shep learns that, not only have they been travelling to the Milky Way Galaxy, but they are (close enough to say that they are) already here.  From The Alpha Relay, we can imagine that it doesn't take too much longer for them to reach the other systems.  One, maybe two years, tops.


Sovereign was badly mangled and very little of it was recovered. And the Thanix cannon is a powerfull weapon.

Derelict reaper? We don't know what else the scientist found while they were searhcing for the IFF. and the IFF came in very handy.

On the CB? Both. a reaper was buing built there. You are bound to find a LOT of info about X in a factory that builds X.

Arrival canonicly takes place after the SM. You can play it before, yes...but you really shouldn't.
Evne then..two years can be plenty of time if used properly.




While Harby could have possibly wiped data, teh machienery and the HR remain. Those are great source of knowledge.

As for re-fitting. Cerberus isn't going to be doing that. Alliance and alien shipyards will be doing that. Ther's nothing going to waste - lord knows there's no shortage of scientists.

New weapons? Researching new tech is directly applicable to better weapons.


Great source of knowledge, yes, if we have the time and resources to dedicate to studying such a MASSIVE vessel.  Unless there are a few dozen EDI's floating around, this is going to take time, money, and people.  A lot of them. (Remember how big collector ship was?  Big enough to contain MILLIONS of humans.  Collector base is MUCH BIGGER).  I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just going to take a long (longer than the two years it took to develop EDI and Thannix from just pieces of Sovereign).


Focused research. Plus, the galaxy has billions and billions of humans and aliens. Scientists are not in short supply.
Again, you cannot sy how long it would take. Even something like an educated guess would be very hard to make.


And, it doesn't matter that Cerberus would not be doing the "re-fitting" themselves.  They have the CREDITS to do it, and the money can be pushed around by TIM at will to whatever he sees fit, even to legitimate alliance/alien shipyards.  In my opinion, it would be a better use of money to ensure that every ship going up to face the Reapers had Thannix cannons, then to search for a supposed Reaper "kill-switch".


The income of Cerberus is insignificant compared to the money the System Alliance has at it's disposal. The SA will build and retrofit their own ships. As will everyone else. They don't NEED Tim's money.
Not to mention that you can't just give money to the government and tell them to "use it for X" and expect it to really go there...

Cerberus should use it's money to do what it does best - intelligence gathering.



No, we don't know it.  It is only my opinion, disagree with it if you want.
But I've based my opinion on what I've been able to see from TIM in the games (mind you, I haven't read the comics or books, but from what I've heard said it falls in line with my presumptions).
One, that TIM is very smart, and has a boat load of common sense when it comes to matters involving the application of time and money.
Two, that TIM has proven himself to be capable of manipulating people to reach his objectives.
Three, that TIM has flat out told me that he stands to gain something else from the base other then a Reaper defeat ( Direct quote: The Technology from that Base could have secured human dominance in the galaxy, from the Reapers and beyond. ~ TIM.)

And yes, hoping to defeat the Reapers through knowledge from the CB is wishful thinking.  People here have said it before - they are clutching at straws to defeat the Reapers.  Saving the CB is the last act (of the game) of a desperate Shep.  I don't think TIM was that desperate, or he would have been infinitely more upset when Shep destroys it.


I love it how people take that line of TIM and read into it like mad..

And no, hoping to defet the reapers with the help of hte CB is not wishful lthinking. It's the most rational move avilable. Shep IS desperate..or at elast should be if he has any brains.
The reapers are coming. We have no way to really defeat them. yoiu got nothing.
Sehp spent all the time after ME1 searching for something...anything.

Then a trasure throve of knowledge falls into your lap. And you blow it up.

Why? Because TIM might be bad man and because possible human dominance is far worse that total galactic extinction:whistle:

xcuse me while I drop to the floor, laughing..and clutching my head in disbelief in the process.

#1321
goofyomnivore

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That would imply we couldn't kill sovvy,but umm...we did.


We killed one Reaper surrounded and alone. I don't think we will be able to replicate that situation consistently.

#1322
Lotion Soronarr

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

See, I don't see this as being about Cerberus so much as the 'every advantage they can get' vs 'every advantage I trust.'

There is wisdom is judging allies on their trustworthyness. On using weapons that are not only deadly, but RELIABLE. There is a reason the AK47 is the world's premier assault rifle. And it isn't because it is deadly, it's because it is reliable.

In war, it isn't always about who can grab as many weapons as much as it is about using those weapons in a way that maximizes effectiveness.

So, while giving Cerberus the CB could potentially give you an asset you would not otherwise have... there is no GUARANTEE that the asset will be particularly useful to you once THEY have it.

Think about it this way. In WWII the Chinese were at war with Japan. They were an ally of the US. So was Russia. But we wouldn't necessarily give either of them nuclear technology.

Same with Cerberus. They are not 100% trustworthy by any measure.



Nobody is 100% ttrusworthy. The council is a bunch of re-tards that did nothing. You trust them?

You dont have to. You don't even have to trust Cerberus What you do trust is that it's in their best interest to help you. Nobody wants to die. Cerberus cernatly doesn't want to see humantiy exterminated. They got no reason NOT to help you.


And you take your reliable ak-47. When I come in my tank, you'll wish you had something else.

#1323
Lotion Soronarr

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Shimmer_Gloom wrote...

Shepard and TIM may not see eye to eye on everything. Just becuase they share an enemy doesn't mean they share the same goals. My Shepard wants to save the Galaxy in a way that leaves it in a more or less harmonious fashion. TIM wants to save the Galaxy in a way that benefits Cerberus (hence the 'Dominance for Cerberus is Dominance for humanity' speech).

What if TIM decides he wants to use force in a way counter to my goals? What if he is okay with sacrificing resources I do not want sacrificed? I don't want to fight an empowered Cerberus at the same time I am fighting the Reapers (and look who we are fighting in ME3 btw).

Again, remember my point about reliability? What is the point of having an asset if you cannot rely on it?


Your primary goal should be saving the galaxy. Period.

You're gunnign for a perfect outcome, which is both naive and rather stupid in the contect of a total anihiliation.

To which I aks you - what if hte SA is ok with sacrificing resources you do not want? or the Asari? Or the Salarians?
you do NOT control your allies. That is wishfull thinking.

#1324
Lotion Soronarr

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Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

ON topic:"I don't trust Cerberus" will never be a good enough reason for the people that do,but it's still more then enough reason for most people.


That's because it's a stupid reason.

Preserving the status quo of the galaxy is more important than stoping galactic anihiliation?


It's nice ot know the galaxy is doomed because Shep has trust issues and is full of himself.

#1325
Kaiser Shepard

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Just for argument's sake, is "I actually like Cerberus, I just don't trust TIM." any better of a reason?