3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

I was in a reverse mindset as you SandTrout, when I was told to destroy it originally the entire time I was hoping there was some way to salvage it, because I think it's information could be potentially far to valuable to just go up in smoke.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

The interesting thing is, I've actually come to reconsider my decision on the CB on my personal canon play-through. Although I stand by my reasons to blow it up as rational, the discussions on this thread have revealed that I hadn't thought through everything all that thoroughly because I had placed myself very much into Shepard's role where I had to make a snap-decision under impending attack. TIM dropped the whole thing on me so quickly that I didn't have time to consider everything, and by default, I stuck to the original plan.

The funny thing is, if TIM had pointed out that salvaging the base was possible at an earlier point in the mission, I might have kept it, while I suspect that he intended to drop that bomb on me at the last minute to keep me from thinking it through too much. In that way, if TIM did deliberately try to manipulate me in that manner in order to convince me to keep the base, then he did us both a disfavor.

I'm still not going to kill TIM in ME3 unless he really is working for the Reapers (as opposed to some strange gambit), but if I ever get to meet him in person, I think I will break his jaw for that, given the option.

This is why I have two, separate OPPOSITE playthroughs that I plan to import.  I consider both canon. (Would love to make a neutral one, but unfortunately the Mass Effect series is set up to actually punish people for being a neutral party)

When I played ME2 for the first time, it was even before I had played ME1, and then when I did get around to importing an ME1 save, I was impressed at the level of extra content associated with it.

Would love to see exactly how much difference there will be from both playthroughs, and how they can both logically end approximately the same (I'm assuming no matter what we will defeat the Reapers, just at what cost).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

By denying them help they also die. Humanity cannot stand alone agaisnt the repaers.
TIM himself is urging Sheppard to forge alliances!

All those idea of Cerberus wanthing to eradicate everyone but humans is silly and completely unsopported by anything.

Part of domination is to get rid of/outdo the competition.

outdo does nto equal destroy.

And to dominate, you first need to survive. Priorities man..Priorities.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

By denying them help they also die. Humanity cannot stand alone agaisnt the repaers.
TIM himself is urging Sheppard to forge alliances!

All those idea of Cerberus wanthing to eradicate everyone but humans is silly and completely unsopported by anything.

Part of domination is to get rid of/outdo the competition.

The Salarian/Asari/Turian dominance trio didn't get rid of the Volus,Hanar,Elcor,etc. :happy:

Yes, but remember humanity is considered to be the "Jack of all trades" amongst species in the galaxy.
The turians have no sense of intelligence gathering, diplomacy, and finance, therefore they need the Salarians, Asari, and the Volus.
The Asari have a very weak military, therefore they need the Salarians for intelligence gathering, and the Turians for military might.
I don't think the salarians would ever do anything that wasn't at least MUTUALLY beneficial to themselves (at least as a whole species, can't speak towards the individual).
Pretty much any species to have been "invited" to have an embassy on the citadel has been considered to be a potentially beneficial species.

The humans don't have any problems in those areas.  They can be just as effective diplomatically as the Asari, have just as strong of a military as the Turians, espionage the likes of the salarians etc. etc. etc.  And not only are we capable of this, but our species as a whole STRIVES to be better then anyone else.

So, why would it be necessary to keep the other races around?

I think you're overgeneralizing thing with regarding to the races.
Why would it be necessary to destroy them?

b.t.w - I think you missed the point of hte question. I underlined it for you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Unpleasant Implications wrote...

I destroyed the CB based on long view. Even if we did win because of it, the knowledge and the possibility of building a reaper would be out in the universe. The information on harvesting species to create super constructs... would be available to the universe. We may say that Cerberus would keep it secret but look at Wilson. TIM said himself Wilson was one of his most trusted agents. Imagine how many other "trusted agents" are on a payroll. This information can't be kept secret forever, it will be leaked, it will be known. Our world has extremists, the universe has extremists, those who would use this information to fuel their own goals and create their own Reaper. It would be starting another cycle of destruction. In my opinion, the sheer possibility of this information existing is reason enough to destroy the base.

When the repars come, everyone will be pecking at their corpses (assumign we win). The info will get one way or the other. You can't stop that.

and why would anyone want to get liquified?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Seboist wrote...

One critical thing about preserving the Collector base that isn't mentioned often(or at all) is that the cloning facilitie(s) would remain intact, which means that Cerberus would be able to create their own army of Collectors(for better or worse). The only issue would be finding a substitute for the Collector General/Harbinger, which might be fulfilled by another EDI like A.I.

Regardless, I hope we fight Collectors again in ME3. I enjoyed fighting those bastards more than the mercs.

It's just one facility. It really doesn't give Cerberus much, given the army and power of the ther races.
It's lik having one boot camp and then gloating over someon who has 100 boot camps and a space navy than can blow yours to hell.

And I doubt Cerberus could even control them. They seemed to be attuned to the reapers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...


By whom exactly?  EDI is attached to the Normandy -- I'm assuming that we're not going to leave the Normandy and Shep and the crew at the collector base just so that EDI can datamine it.  And I don't see a lot of EDI's floating around.  So, I'm assuming that this would mean human research teams. Considering the risk of indoctrination (and when dealing with Reaper tech we should ALWAYS assume that risk), would this even be effective?  Would an indoctrinated team even SEND us anything they find?  What about giving an indoctrinated team of scientists the ability to snoop around a ship that has so many advanced weapons systems?  What's the chance that the weapons would be used against us?
^Just a random train of thought that occurs when I start considering exactly who will be left to research the base.  (Will potentially be the same with teams independent of Cerberus)

Well, if the Derelict reaper is anything to judge by, the science tem would do their job up untill they become fully indoctrinated. So yeah..tehy would send you stuff... for a while.

But probably the best defense would be to have constantly rotating crews..so that no one stays under indcotrination influence for long.

And well...if it's just a bunch of eggheads. Not much of a threat there when a commando team storms the base.

I would put more faith in EDI to find something then I would any human team.  Refer back to my first point about EDI's potential availabilty to sit there and just datamine.

That's you.
EDI is derived from reaper tech and is na AI. I for one do NOT welecome our mechanical overlords...

How can you be sure that another ‘golden opportunity’
would fall into your lap as potentially
wondrous in information as what’s represented here?

Could easily switch the words *golden opportunity* for catastrophic circumstance and *wonderous* for dangerous, depending upon the actual outcome.  Right now we just don't know.

Hardly. The base IS a golden opportunity to study repaer technology.
The potential danger of the CB is insignificant compared to the potential benefits.

[JPfanner]

SandTrout wrote...

The council isn't exactly the model of a just governmental structure. Just ask the Quarians, who have been repeatedly kneecapped by the Council in their efforts to settle an new home-world.

That model has lasted pretty long and on a galactic scale.  When you're talking trillions of people over thousands of worlds the current state of 17 million Quarians is a pretty small thing.  The Quarian complaints that I can remember seemed to be focused on being excluded and ostracized rather than any indictment of the system itself.  Without any subjective measurements it is an established environment that humanity is trying to find a place in.  Humanity found itself having to integrate into an existing community rather than the usual role of being community builders (such as in Babylon 5).

False. Humanity gained its greatest diplomatic/political gains by leveraging our notable military might within context. We gained colonization priority in the Attican Traverse by virtue that we were willing and able to protect those colonies from Terminus System incursion. Sheppard gained his Spectre status because the Council needed something to appease humanity, by virtue of our diplomatic maneuvering. Humanity gained its Council seat for its military contribution to the BotC.

My impression was that the Council was looking for a way to weaken batarian interests without overtly coming down on a member race and humanity's emergence provided them with a win-win situation.  It is a win-win for humanity as well, a chance to expand and develop without competing with any of the big three or their interests.  The Alliance as presented in game seems to have some issues with protecting their colonies, which is actually strange considering their proportional fleet size to occupied space.  I'm talking ME1 and pre-ME1 here; expecting the Alliance (or Council) to defend non-Alliance colonies in the Terminus during ME2 obviously doesn't make sense.

Anita Goyle's impression of the Council in Mass Effect: Revelation was pretty interesting in showing how the concessions they give aren't costing them much, if anything at all.  Shepard becoming a Spectre even turns into a win-win for the Council because they were already considering Shepard as a Spectre and now they can dump the whole Saren situation on them to boot.  The Alliance military contribution to the BotC is definite, but only possible because of Shepard's efforts.  I do think Shepard's personal importance varies in that situation with whether you saved the Council and/or who you pick as a Councilor, or at least their perceived importance.  Not to mention the disparity between historical record and player perspective.

Hopefully, we will be able to rebuild and expand our colonial populations while everyone is rebuilding. Everyone will be reeling from the Galactic War, though it currently looks likely that Humanity will be hit worse than most. Our best chance is to use our noted attribute to grab at every opportunity given to us to rebuild better and stronger than before. Most of the other species have not shown a propensity to expand as rapidly as humans, at least partially because they have grown complacent in their ability to keep other races(Volus, Elcor, Quarians, Krogan) subjugated.

Their empires will contract and shrink into themselves in order to cope with this kind of trauma, while humans will see a massive boost of colonial volunteers as many attempt to escape the devastation on Earth.

Terra Nova is the largest colony with a paltry 4.4 million.  Humanity can't afford to lose too many of those 11.4 billion on Earth.  The occupation of Earth seems like it'd either be relatively minor or catastrophic without much room in between those two.  That post occupation expansion is definitely what is needed and arguably with enough people left it'd just be a hiccup.  It was going to take a few centuries to build up the population and multiple system infrastructure to be on even footing with the other Council races anyway.  The losses on Earth could be mitigated in the long term by the increased immigration from Earth stimulating growth outside the Sol system.  Should be interesting to see what happens at any rate.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

The interesting thing is, I've actually come to reconsider my decision on the CB on my personal canon play-through. Although I stand by my reasons to blow it up as rational, the discussions on this thread have revealed that I hadn't thought through everything all that thoroughly because I had placed myself very much into Shepard's role where I had to make a snap-decision under impending attack. TIM dropped the whole thing on me so quickly that I didn't have time to consider everything, and by default, I stuck to the original plan.

The funny thing is, if TIM had pointed out that salvaging the base was possible at an earlier point in the mission, I might have kept it, while I suspect that he intended to drop that bomb on me at the last minute to keep me from thinking it through too much. In that way, if TIM did deliberately try to manipulate me in that manner in order to convince me to keep the base, then he did us both a disfavor.

I'm still not going to kill TIM in ME3 unless he really is working for the Reapers (as opposed to some strange gambit), but if I ever get to meet him in person, I think I will break his jaw for that, given the option.

but..why would he do that? That makes no sense.

Before Normandy entered the Omega relay no one knew what you'd find on the other side. TIM didn't know about hte base or what it contained, nor what the opposition would be nor the circumstances.
How could he have told you anything before that?

Unless you missed that, he proposes the pulse option AFTER studying the data EDI sent him and determining it would work at all.

[JPfanner]

Sisterofshane wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

I don't know if I'd consider Mass Effect's humanity to be especially effective at diplomacy. Generally in science fiction they are and they're usually the ones holding the galactic community together. But I don't really see that in Mass Effect, especially with their new kids on the block status.

There was already a galactic community made up of multiple species working together for over two millenia without any input from humans. Humanity is trying to fit into an established system in some way and stepping on toes constantly while doing it. They're considered bossy upstarts and bullies. They're more a destabilizing influence than a stabilizing one.

Not effective at diplomacy?  Then how do you explain humanity getting an embassy upon the citadel faster than any other species in the galaxy?  Hopefully not because we just happened to be in the "right place at the right time".  Species like the Krogan have done FAR more to secure galactic peace and security than humanity, and they never even made it as far as an embassy (granted, the Krogan kind of shot themselves in the foot).

And "bullying" I think can be considered a "diplomatic" tactic. It doesn't fit the connotative definition of the term, but it is considered diplomacy.

Nope, I said "especially effective at diplomacy" and meant in some general racial sense.  I thought Anita Goyle was the coolest character in a Mass Effect novel to date, and she was certainly effective at it.  I don't think Udina is nearly as effective as he believes himself to be.

I was referencing your comment that humanity in general could replace the acknowledged specialists in that role.  Which I don't believe they currently could given their presentation and the situation in Mass Effect.  They're seen as bullies and upstarts by the other races (which the player is told multiple times) which isn't really the view that the asari are held in as mediators and bridge builders.  In time, humanity possibly could because situations and perceptions can change obviously.  I guess a lot might depend on your perspective on what role humanity should have too.  Pretty easy to exercise successful diplomacy when you're top dog for example.

Humanity doesn't have any crippling physical/psychological/social issues like some of the races (individual exceptions obvously).  Which I think is one reason why everyone recognises that they'll be eventually joining the turians, salarians, and asari on the Council in ME1; they get things done and can work with others, but don't bend over and take it calmly if someone tries to screw them.  Everyone seems to recognize that the humans are more like the big three and less like the "mere" member races.

[didymos1120]

JPfanner wrote...

 I don't think Udina is nearly as effective as he believes himself to be.

I think he's more along the lines of a backroom deal kind of guy who isn't afraid of, and even likes, playing dirty. If he's good enough at that, he could be pretty damn effective, even if he comes off poorly in public at times.  Downside being even more enemies than is typical for a politician, many of them likely taking it very personally.

[Arijharn]

I think Udina would have to be pretty damn effective at his job if he was frontline running to become the first human Councillor on the citadel, whether he gets that position or not is dependent on whether you as Shephard are able to look past the fact that he did rather gleefully backstab you.

Modifié par Arijharn, 06 août 2011 - 12:43 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...

A) They can be trusted to save their own skins,
[/quote]
Well, sure, I didn't really expect an explanation as to why you even believe that, since it's an obvious counter-argument for the sake of being a counter-argument and defending your position, but...really?

No, they are not.
Even if we agree that TIM will be trustworthy enough in a situation like this, which is simply not true as seen at least twice in Mass Effect 2 (Setting up two traps, that of the Collector Vessel and the other with the VS, along with some other lies, such as Liara, various attempts at manipulation, etc.), they are definitely not to be trusted with saving their own skins.

Almost causing a technolodgical apocalypse, becoming indoctrinated while knowing about indoctrination, being unable to contain Subject Zero, Ascension, Retribution, and Trident are only few examples of that.


[quote] The Reapers will wipe out all existing sapient species, and actually have the means to succeed. Anything that Cerberus may do after the Reapers is not as bad as what the Reapers WILL do if they are not stopped,[/quote]
Pragmatically or morally?

Because you know, whatever Cerberus does has the potential to be multiple times more morally worse than what the Reapers do.

And that's besides the point, what is your argument? That the base will save us? That Cerberus will give us the base? That Cerberus will not use the base selectively?

Because you know, that's assuming that the base will alone save us from the Reapers. A ridiculous claim, as I have explained multiple times. 

The base itself can of course not save us. That base did NOT create a single Reaper. And we want to use it to compete with multiple thousands...

...no, wait, not just that, we want to use it in a way to surpass the Reapers.


And then there is the "but combined with other tech it can do stuff, imagine the endless possibilities!" card. The one that when it reads itself with some attention, it will want to jump out the nearest airlock.

If you claim that you will combine the Reaper Tech with conventional tech, then the possibilities are definitely not infinite. They are very "finite" actually.

Conventional technolodgy is limited, and it is definitely not unknown. The fact that you can't think of any of conventional tech that could give us the edge (although someone did suggest upgrading our MA canons to the point they are multiple times the strength of that that the Reapers have...somehow), is testimony as to how the CB can be of no use to us in defeating the Reapers.

It is only of potential use to Cerberus. And not in defeating the Reapers.



[quote]C) Meta-gaming does not apply to discussions of valid reason that an IC Shepard would or would not do anything. I am only ignoring point that have already been dealt with or are completely invalid to this discussion in any case.[/quote]
You can try to ignore it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't ensure that saving the Collector Base is after all, a bad choice to make.

And...what are you saying exactly anyway?
Assuming that Cerberus will turn against you, is less valid than assuming that they will somehow distribute the CB tech (which you assume that will be helpful) to all species?

Right.

Anyway, we do know that Cerberus will turn against your allies at some point.
They have extremist beliefs, have already tried to grasp political opportunities with a much stabler Alliance, and....they are wanted by multiple species in the galaxy. 

[quote]TIM didn't know with certainty, but he speculated that it might be the reason that no other ship has successfuly navigated the O4 relay. He states this explicitly. He presented that as something to be looked for, by the research team, if it existed.[/quote]
What are his exact words, if he stated so explicitly?

Did he also explain how exactly the research team found the Reaper IFF when they, not only were not looking for an IFF, but generally something that allows Reapers to pass through that particular relay?

Did he also happen to explain how come the research team never reported discovering the IFF?

[quote]And machines are required to build stuff, like weapons that were produced at the CB. Those machines would require some sort of programing or baseline data to operate. The concept is not that difficult, you just ignore it, and claim that there is no usable data at the CB.[/quote]Yes, exactly, what else? Go ahead.

You explicitly state how mass production works, do you realize the huge flaw in your statement?

[quote]Yes, all of those things that we did between ME1 and ME2 removed tactical advantages that the Reapers had, and you are correct that it was not enough on its own to stop the Reapers. That doesn't mean that we should have just discarded those advantages.[/quote]
Uh, I am rebutting your ridiculous claim that we are "doing good". 

[quote]As for lacking any strategic advantages, you are incorrect. We can build/rebuild fleets, the Reapers cannot.
.Even if we take out 1 Reaper per engagement, that is a permanent loss for the Reapers, while we can rebuild any lost ships. This is where the hit-and-run tactics with the fleet can come into play.[/quote]
Uh-huh, sure we can.

Never mind that

• We didn't have enough resources to be building thousands of ships before, but somehow now we will be able to,
• The Reapers will be attacking strategic points when attacking us, such as factories and mining sites,
• We don't have the means to go around and just collect resources, because guess what, the Reapers want to kill every single one of us,
• We will have the manpower to not only man the ships but also collect resources and build ships, when our homeworlds and major worlds which could go ahead and host 99% of our species are isolated and reaped.

Oh, and guess what you guys.

Not only will we do all that, but we will be rebuilding thousands of ships with our new tech!

Oh, you want to talk hit and run?

It took two major fleets and the Destiny Ascension to take out Sovereign (not that they managed to do it, but anyway...), and the Alliance, in it's prime state, with a free Earth, several factories and manpower, after two years, they were "still rebuilding" and "were too weak to protect their colonies".

And hey, that happenned to be:

A SINGLE Reaper.






[quote] If we can muster adequate firepower, then hit a single Reaper with everything we have, blow it, and run. Even if we loose 10 ships (which is less than against Sovereign, IIRC), those are 10 ships that we can rebuild, while the Reaper is not going to get replaced for the next 50k years. We DO outnumber them billions to 1, and we have vast pools of manpower to draw from, and industrial bases that can be used to start pumping out warships at a significant rate.[/quote]

• Adaquate firepower? You do realize that we couldn't do that the last time around?
• That Reaper would happen to be alone? And it wouldn't want to call for backup? Cool.
• The Reaper is not going to be replaced for 50K years? The Collectors were already reaping our colonies and building a new Reaper, WITHOUT the Reapers.
• Vast pools of manpower? You do realize that major homeworlds would be isolated, and have been isolated based on what we know.
• Industrial bases? Yeah sure. Along with the resources. Hey, we couldn't do it last time when we weren't being attacked, didn't have our homeworld invaded, were able to collect resources from anywhere we wanted, and didn't have our factories attacked, but yeah, sure, we can do it this time. The possibilities are endless.

[quote]The Thanix is a crude copy of a Reaper main weapon, and there is no doubt in my mind that there are ways to refine it by increasing its output, efficiency, and other aspects. Just because we have a firearm doesn't mean that we cannot improve firearms. We have been for the past 500+ years.[/quote]
Unless we already have the original Reaper data that resulted to the Thanix, but there is not a single indication to show that the Collectors had even started building a main weapon for the HR.

[quote]The fundamental point has been that the CB would increase our chances, and is to be part of many aspects that also increase our chances, not be a binary, as you are claiming! I really want to say things to you that would get me banned right now.[/quote]
Repeating your wishful thinking is NOT an argument.

It has already been explained why the CB alone does not increase our chances, and why even combined with other tech it will not.

We either die or we live.

[quote]Power supplies,[/quote]
Yes, what would they do? How would they help us destroy the Reapers.


[quote]shields,[/quote]
What shields? The HR didn't have any and you know it.

[quote]the Collector Vessel's main weapon,[/quote]
Even if you just hadn't essentially stated "Hey sure, we have a Reaper main gun, but the CB's main gun will obviously help us defeat the Reapers",

it has arguably lesser firepower than that of the Thanix and in comparison to that of a Reaper, it is laughable.

Not to mention that the Thanix has yet to be retrofitted to every single vessel in the galaxy right now, but apparently that one would be.

Cool.


[quote]its scanners that could detect the Normandy in spite of stealth technology,[/quote]
Because the Reapers are playing hide and seek, correct?

[quote]the Collector rifle that you end up with as a Heavy Weapon,[/quote]
In what way does that help in defeating the Reapers?

[quote]biotic implants,[/quote]
Huh?

[quote]FTL communications.[/quote]
Except that that already exists, and the Collectors didn't have it.


[quote]Way to ignore Ascension. You're the one who brought up Conatix, not me. My point was Ascension.[/quote]
Way to NOT read Ascension.

The L4 implants had nothing to do with Cerberus.

All that Cerberus did was to send some serums that ended up degrading the subject's condition and were severly harmful towards the subject as well (Hint: Seizures).

And yes, I still remember that the original point was about Cerberus creating all of the biotic amps, and I do know that you are trying to change the topic.

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 août 2011 - 02:16 .

[TMA LIVE]

Another thing you have to wonder is what exactly will this new tech be? Considering the Collectors made their "weapons" out of living creatures, and made their Reapers out of human slush, I imagine this "new technology" is going to be made by living flesh turned cybernetic. After all, this is what we've been seeing them make all this time.



It's not hard to imagine Cerberus doing the same to advanced themselves. especially if it's the only way to gain advancement. They've literally taken subjects against their will, and experimented on them. And turned them into weapons. Such a thing could be seen as a betrayal, since this is the very thing you tried to stop the Collectors from doing. If you don't believed doing this is the only way to survive, from a moral standpoint, you might try to stop such a thing. And believe there's another way. Because you don't trust Cerberus. You know exactly what they'll do with it. And by these means they'll not only fight against the Reapers, but try to secure human dominance.

Unless they're looking at what they made, and trying to reverse engineer and recreate and restructure it to be the non-flesh version. Similar to say, Sov's gun. But that required pieces of the finished product. Sov had to be made first.

Cerberus has also made a record of wanting to make shock troopers. Making what the Collectors made would be one way to do it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 06 août 2011 - 03:49 .

[Someone With Mass]

Who says that the Reapers can't adapt to our advancements too? It's what they're doing when they're leaving a vanguard like Sovereign behind.

Also, I don't think a radical retrofitting on the scale of all the ships in the fleets can happen overnight. Especially with dreadnoughts and ships that don't have large enough element zero cores to power the weapon to the desired effect.

The Collector ship's main weapon also had to fire about five times or more to destroy the SSV Normandy, a small frigate, compared to the two shots from the Thanix cannon it took to destroy the Collector ship, a large cruiser.

Particle beams won't win over a super hot stream of different metal alloys. Simple as that.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Who says that the Reapers can't adapt to our advancements too? It's what they're doing when they're leaving a vanguard like Sovereign behind.

There's a reason their little scheme works like it does: we stay inside of the parameters they want us in, we lose. We stray out of it, we might just have a shot. Also, Sovereign was left behind because they couldn't simply quantum entangle the Citadel Relay activation button to the other side of it.

Also, I don't think a radical retrofitting on the scale of all the ships in the fleets can happen overnight.

Start an in-galaxy war before the Reapers arrive, duh. Collector/Reaper-tech would spread all over the galaxy within no time, as would means to defend against them.
 

Especially with dreadnoughts and ships that don't have large enough element zero cores to power the weapon to the desired effect.

Unknown.

The Collector ship's main weapon also had to fire about five times or more to destroy the SSV Normandy, a small frigate, compared to the two shots from the Thanix cannon it took to destroy the Collector ship, a large cruiser.

The Collector vessel never was meant to used in direct engagements. The attack on the original Normandy was nothing more than a simple hit-and-run. Aside from that, those lasers are the least our ships have to gain from the Collector Base.

Particle beams won't win over a super hot stream of different metal alloys. Simple as that.

They do dwarf what our ground troops could otherwise do with their precious little eezo based weaponry.

[jbblue05]

TMA LIVE wrote...

http://twitter.com/#...530567091097600

TMA: At the end of ME2, Joker gives Shepard a datapad showing a Reaper. Does that mean we gained some kind of data on Reapers?

Mac: It is safe to assume that the Collector base yielded a great deal of
information on the Reapers (even if destroyed). So... Yes .

Walters doesn't confirm EDI datamined the Base.

Its obvious no matter if you kept or destroyed the CB you' learn a lt abut the Reapers sme more than other

[alperez]

SandTrout wrote...

The funny thing is, if TIM had pointed out that salvaging the base was possible at an earlier point in the mission, I might have kept it, while I suspect that he intended to drop that bomb on me at the last minute to keep me from thinking it through too much. In that way, if TIM did deliberately try to manipulate me in that manner in order to convince me to keep the base, then he did us both a disfavor.

.

Ask yourself the question why that was.

Was it just because he only just thought of it (considering he's supposedly a genius tactician) which to me seems unlikely, or was it because the base's importance is more to Cerberus than it is to us.

I've speculated that the choice your given is not save the base because it helps you fight the reapers but in saving the base your in fact giving strength to cerberus (people you know now are fighting you for some unknown reasons), so look back at the choice and ask yourself 2 questions.

What in reality is the choice your given?

Why is the choice given in only the way its presented to you?

Think about it like this, if the base was going to be important to us in fighting the reapers, would bioware have really given a choice presented as it was, destroy or hand it over to cerberus, or would they have in fact added in choice 3, keep it for yourself (alliance, council, Mordin, whoever).

Now think about it like this, if the base's importance was only in potentially strengtening a potential future antagonist (cerberus) then it makes sense that you phrase that choice in simple black and white terms (destroy or hand it over).

[TMA LIVE]

jbblue05 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

http://twitter.com/#...530567091097600

TMA: At the end of ME2, Joker gives Shepard a datapad showing a Reaper. Does that mean we gained some kind of data on Reapers?

Mac: It is safe to assume that the Collector base yielded a great deal of
information on the Reapers (even if destroyed). So... Yes .

Walters doesn't confirm EDI datamined the Base.

Its obvious no matter if you kept or destroyed the CB you' learn a lt abut the Reapers sme more than other

You got those pictures and info from somewhere. And it ain't Sov. And as Mac says, it's info that came from the base. The base had information, and we got it. Logic says EDI. After all, did you see Shepard download anything during the Suicide Mission?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 06 août 2011 - 05:08 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

jbblue05 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

http://twitter.com/#...530567091097600

TMA: At the end of ME2, Joker gives Shepard a datapad showing a Reaper. Does that mean we gained some kind of data on Reapers?

Mac: It is safe to assume that the Collector base yielded a great deal of
information on the Reapers (even if destroyed). So... Yes .

Walters doesn't confirm EDI datamined the Base.

Its obvious no matter if you kept or destroyed the CB you' learn a lt abut the Reapers sme more than other

In the end, I think the CB-decision will come down to "Are you with us or against us?" regarding TIM (and possibly Cerberus).

[Sisterofshane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

By denying them help they also die. Humanity cannot stand alone agaisnt the repaers.
TIM himself is urging Sheppard to forge alliances!

All those idea of Cerberus wanthing to eradicate everyone but humans is silly and completely unsopported by anything.

Part of domination is to get rid of/outdo the competition.

The Salarian/Asari/Turian dominance trio didn't get rid of the Volus,Hanar,Elcor,etc. :happy:

Yes, but remember humanity is considered to be the "Jack of all trades" amongst species in the galaxy.
The turians have no sense of intelligence gathering, diplomacy, and finance, therefore they need the Salarians, Asari, and the Volus.
The Asari have a very weak military, therefore they need the Salarians for intelligence gathering, and the Turians for military might.
I don't think the salarians would ever do anything that wasn't at least MUTUALLY beneficial to themselves (at least as a whole species, can't speak towards the individual).
Pretty much any species to have been "invited" to have an embassy on the citadel has been considered to be a potentially beneficial species.

The humans don't have any problems in those areas.  They can be just as effective diplomatically as the Asari, have just as strong of a military as the Turians, espionage the likes of the salarians etc. etc. etc.  And not only are we capable of this, but our species as a whole STRIVES to be better then anyone else.

So, why would it be necessary to keep the other races around?

I think you're overgeneralizing thing with regarding to the races.
Why would it be necessary to destroy them?

b.t.w - I think you missed the point of hte question. I underlined it for you.

No, I got the question.  The other council races didn't get rid of other species because they saw them as inherently useful.
I countered that point as in reference to humans not needing other species to fill in our weak points.
And even if I overgeneralized, it was to illustrate the point that the other species RELY upon each other to complete their goals,  and that this would not be the case if humanity were to suddenly assume a majority of the power in the galaxy.
So, I ask you again, why would it be necessary to keep the other races around?  What exactly stops us from killing them if they get in the way of what we want?

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


but..why would he do that? That makes no sense.

Before Normandy entered the Omega relay no one knew what you'd find on the other side. TIM didn't know about hte base or what it contained, nor what the opposition would be nor the circumstances.
How could he have told you anything before that?

Unless you missed that, he proposes the pulse option AFTER studying the data EDI sent him and determining it would work at all.

Considering he's supposedly a genius and he's already shown that he will keep certain info to himself if he feels that its better than divulging that info, why does it make no sense.

Your assumption that he doesn't know that the base exists or may contain valuable tech data actually makes less sense, which considering your own arguments for keeping the base is surprising.

Would it not be more ogical that TIM would expect the collectors to have some sort of a base of operations on the other side of the omega relay and that this homebase of the collectors, people he knows are working with the reapers may contain perhaps some information about the reapers themselves, not to mention some tech that could be useful, considering you yourself have argued that the base does contain those very things.

TIM is apparently a clever man, so would a clever man not have come to that conclussion way before sending Shepard in the first place?

Also considering TIM's been shown to keep info to himself when it suits him, what's to say he deliberately kept the pulse info to the last moment.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

TMA LIVE wrote...

http://twitter.com/#...530567091097600

TMA: At the end of ME2, Joker gives Shepard a datapad showing a Reaper. Does that mean we gained some kind of data on Reapers?

Mac: It is safe to assume that the Collector base yielded a great deal of
information on the Reapers (even if destroyed). So... Yes

You got those pictures and info from somewhere. And it ain't Sov. And as Mac says, it's info that came from the base. The base had information, and we got it. Logic says EDI. After all, did you see Shepard download anything during the Suicide Mission?.

Too, EDI could come up with some answers to Shep's queries on the Reaperlava. I don't suppose EDI was already busy digging in (besides coming up with the schematics) the moment the ship crash landed on the base. Heck, it could already be on the attack the moment the Normandy got into range.

Thing is, why would there be Reaper info at the base? Blueprint for the reaperlava?

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 06 août 2011 - 05:16 .

[Someone With Mass]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
They do dwarf what our ground troops could otherwise do with their precious little eezo based weaponry.

Only if ground troops have the power required to fire those weapons. And I don't think you can expect every marine squad in the galaxy to have power cells on them at all times. 

[alperez]

Obsidian Gryphon wrote...


Thing is, why would there be Reaper info at the base? Blueprint for the reaperlava?

That and the fact that the collectors tech advancement's have to come from somewhere, it makes sense that a race allied with the reapers may have been given tech by the reapers, so when you see how far technologically advanced the reapers are in terms of us and then your shown that the collectors are also tmore echnolgically advanced than us.

It makes sense that this tech advancement may have come from their allies, the reapers.