3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Rekkampum]

Arijharn wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You don't have a replay to them.

You dont' have a SINGLE piece of strong evidence to support your claim.

So yes. That's the definition of loosing an argument - when you don't have any facts or proof to defend it.

By that definition, you lost before you started.

And if you want me to respond to you in a serious and well thought-out manner, learn how to spell.

Sorry Mass, but I'm pretty sure he won the argument, and attacking his spelling out of everything he has said, is if anything, a sure sign of his victory.

WIN.

[Someone With Mass]

Arijharn wrote...

Sorry Mass, but I'm pretty sure he won the argument, and attacking his spelling out of everything he has said, is if anything, a sure sign of his victory.

No, that's just me wanting some proper spelling.

And until he can prove otherwise, he hasn't won anything.

[Rekkampum]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Sorry Mass, but I'm pretty sure he won the argument, and attacking his spelling out of everything he has said, is if anything, a sure sign of his victory.

No, that's just me wanting some proper spelling.

And until he can prove otherwise, he hasn't won anything.

A deflection is not a rebuttal. I could nitpick and call you out for starting your sentence with a conjunction, but _____(insert whatever petty statement you can imagine to prove how much of a distraction such quibbles are to meaningful conversations). 

Modifié par Rekkampum, 06 août 2011 - 11:05 .

[Sisterofshane]

JPfanner wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

JPfanner wrote...

I don't know if I'd consider Mass Effect's humanity to be especially effective at diplomacy. Generally in science fiction they are and they're usually the ones holding the galactic community together. But I don't really see that in Mass Effect, especially with their new kids on the block status.

There was already a galactic community made up of multiple species working together for over two millenia without any input from humans. Humanity is trying to fit into an established system in some way and stepping on toes constantly while doing it. They're considered bossy upstarts and bullies. They're more a destabilizing influence than a stabilizing one.

Not effective at diplomacy?  Then how do you explain humanity getting an embassy upon the citadel faster than any other species in the galaxy?  Hopefully not because we just happened to be in the "right place at the right time".  Species like the Krogan have done FAR more to secure galactic peace and security than humanity, and they never even made it as far as an embassy (granted, the Krogan kind of shot themselves in the foot).

And "bullying" I think can be considered a "diplomatic" tactic. It doesn't fit the connotative definition of the term, but it is considered diplomacy.

Nope, I said "especially effective at diplomacy" and meant in some general racial sense.  I thought Anita Goyle was the coolest character in a Mass Effect novel to date, and she was certainly effective at it.  I don't think Udina is nearly as effective as he believes himself to be.

I was referencing your comment that humanity in general could replace the acknowledged specialists in that role.  Which I don't believe they currently could given their presentation and the situation in Mass Effect.  They're seen as bullies and upstarts by the other races (which the player is told multiple times) which isn't really the view that the asari are held in as mediators and bridge builders.  In time, humanity possibly could because situations and perceptions can change obviously.  I guess a lot might depend on your perspective on what role humanity should have too.  Pretty easy to exercise successful diplomacy when you're top dog for example.

Humanity doesn't have any crippling physical/psychological/social issues like some of the races (individual exceptions obvously).  Which I think is one reason why everyone recognises that they'll be eventually joining the turians, salarians, and asari on the Council in ME1; they get things done and can work with others, but don't bend over and take it calmly if someone tries to screw them.  Everyone seems to recognize that the humans are more like the big three and less like the "mere" member races.

I wasn't refering to the fact that we were on par as a whole in my original statement, either, but we can hold our own.  We are certainly more self-reliant then the other species have been.  And for as many opinions I've heard in the game about humans being "bullies", I've heard just as many compliments.  and, that opinion was more put into the game to show that the other species have no interest in changing the status quo, even though they can all predict that the change is coming.

AND, back to the very orignal point, someone else pointed out that when the other races took charge, they didn't necessarily wipe out all of the other races.  I think I've effectively illustrated that, were another race to be removed, humanity would not be crippled in the same way that the other races would be.  They are co-dependent, where as humanity is self-reliant.

Which could possibly mean that a future run by Cerberus could be a potentially bad thing when it comes to the other races.

[SandTrout]

The judgment of the winner of a debate is either through one side conceding the point (extremely rare on the internet) or by some sort of poll that measures judgements from a 3'rd party on which side's arguments were more compelling(difficult to organize over the internet).

In this case, the Keep the Baser's drew over at least one person (myself) while there is no example of the Blow the Baser's drawing anyone that didn't already share their viewpoint to their side. So unless I missed someone stating that they changed their mind and decided that blowing up the base is the better idea, this can be considered a win for the Keep the Baser's.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Trout....you can't change a fanatics mind,but you can draw a reasonable person to a different conclusion(i.e. you) IIRC you weren't drawn over by something someone said,you made a realization and changed your view accordingly.


"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject"-Sir Winston Churchill.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 06 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[SandTrout]

@Humanoid-Typhoon,

It was a realization brought on by a combination of what people has said as well as having some distance from the issue.

[Sisterofshane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

No, I got the question.  The other council races didn't get rid of other species because they saw them as inherently useful.
I countered that point as in reference to humans not needing other species to fill in our weak points.
And even if I overgeneralized, it was to illustrate the point that the other species RELY upon each other to complete their goals,  and that this would not be the case if humanity were to suddenly assume a majority of the power in the galaxy.
So, I ask you again, why would it be necessary to keep the other races around?  What exactly stops us from killing them if they get in the way of what we want?

No, sorry, I don't really see that reliance. Asari are just as capable warriors as turains are. There are no crippling overspecilizations in these species as far as I can see.

Each of the races would be very much capable of governing the universe alone - why not? They governed their own race and reached the stars alone.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there.  The interdependency of these species did not happen overnight.  It happened as galactic government evolved over so many hundreds of years.  Humanity would, too presumably gain these interdependencies as time went on, but as for now, we are too new to the relative galactic scene to have established such reliance.  And yet, the Council already relies upon us to do what they cannot -- things like colonize the Traverse.  Right now we want to abide by galactic law, which is why we play by their rules.  Anderson pretty much sums it up - we want more political power.  We want to have a more power to shape galactic rules to our favor.  We don't NEED any other race.

The codex on the Turians sums it up (yes I know, it only pertains to the Turians, but I think presumably the other races feel the same or they would not be council/citadel members, yes?): "the ruling Hierarchy understands they would lose more than they would gain if the other two races were ever removed.
" Not quite the case with humanity.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

The judgment of the winner of a debate is either through one side conceding the point (extremely rare on the internet) or by some sort of poll that measures judgements from a 3'rd party on which side's arguments were more compelling(difficult to organize over the internet).

In this case, the Keep the Baser's drew over at least one person (myself) while there is no example of the Blow the Baser's drawing anyone that didn't already share their viewpoint to their side. So unless I missed someone stating that they changed their mind and decided that blowing up the base is the better idea, this can be considered a win for the Keep the Baser's.

I still believe that there are rational reasons for destroying and keeping the base.  You saw that, I saw that.  It's really hard to change the viewpoint of people who hold irrational view points, such as giving the base to TIM would definitely win us the war against the reapers, or that no information could be obtained from the base.

You mentioned above that the Illusive man kind of put you on the spot as to the desicion, and had you more time, you might have made a  different decision.  But in the end, I think the game was designed to put you on the spot, and force you to go with your "gut".

So, from one rational person to another, there are REASONS for seemingly
irrational behavior.  Emotions like fear are designed to help us
determine a preferable course of action in a limited amount of time when
faced with a daunting circumstance.  Fight or Flight, to a degree.

You might end up regretting the decision to keep that base, or to blow it up.  Heck, the devs could decide to punish us for EITHER decision (exactly what I would do, *maniacal laugh*).

[SandTrout]

@Sisterofshane

True enough. I figured that I should explain to Someone With Mass what victory conditions in this kind of debate are.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

@Sisterofshane

True enough. I figured that I should explain to Someone With Mass what victory conditions in this kind of debate are.

This is still a debate? I thought it was a pissing contest.

I think we all knew what the course of this thread would be based on the previous thread,its just that thread with less insults.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 06 août 2011 - 11:55 .

[TMA LIVE]

These threads get locked for a reason. I suggest everyone start cooling down. As far as I'm aware, this was more about debating then "this side is wins" or gains a point. Because if that's the case, all threads involving the Collector Base choice like this should be locked for simply serving no purpose then insulting and flame wars. Since that's what they end up becoming.

Lotion Soronnar, you've literally called SWM's Shepard an idiot, and trying to end arguments by telling the other they're losing. All because you disagreed. Insults alone could get you banned.

Same deal to Someone with Mass insulting Lotion's spelling.

I suggest you guys either take a break, or ignore each other.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 06 août 2011 - 11:55 .

[Arijharn]

As far as I know, that had nothing to do with the actual keeping the base decision or not, but whether Cerberus are full of xenophobes or not.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Arijharn wrote...

As far as I know, that had nothing to do with the actual keeping the base decision or not, but whether Cerberus are full of xenophobes or not.

What?

[Rekkampum]

TMA LIVE wrote...

These threads get locked for a reason. I suggest everyone start cooling down. As far as I'm aware, this was more about debating then "this side is wins" or gains a point. Because if that's the case, all threads involving the Collector Base choice like this should be locked for simply serving no purpose then insulting and flame wars. Since that's what they end up becoming.

Lotion Soronnar, you've literally called SWM's Shepard an idiot, and trying to end arguments by telling the other they're losing. All because you disagreed. Insults alone could get you banned.

Same deal to Someone with Mass insulting Lotion's spelling.

I suggest you guys either take a break, or ignore each other.

In before the Lock down.

Throwing out random question to steer debate into a new direction: is it more morally beneficial to run Cerberus yourself, or to destroy it?

[Rekkampum]

Arijharn wrote...

As far as I know, that had nothing to do with the actual keeping the base decision or not, but whether Cerberus are full of xenophobes or not.

Well there are plenty of xenophobes in Cerberus, but not all of them are.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

It depends on your morals rekk,would it be personally beneficial? Absolutely,having billions in credits and tons of bodies to throw at whatever may come your way,why not,though if you aren't as smart and charismatic as TIM it may prove to be tricky.

[Rekkampum]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

It depends on your morals rekk,would it be personally beneficial? Absolutely,having billions in credits and tons of bodies to throw at whatever may come your way,why not,though if you aren't as smart and charismatic as TIM it may prove to be tricky.

I accidentally read TIM as TMI and got a nice flash of the South Park episode. Just a random note.

Well, in response, I could hire Liara as my secretary, and Mordin to oversee the experiments.  

[TMA LIVE]

To run Cerberus yourself depends on you. If you're a xenophode who's hungry for power or human dominance, then that's kind of bad. But someone like Miranda or Jacob (or both) could change things for the better. If you can make the best of things, why not? Keeping Cerberus not running by TIM can be beneficial to anyone. Morally depends on you or the person taking over. Though I'd probably prefer to restructure it, since as Miranda says, many join out of simple xenophodia.

[Kaiser Shepard]

As TMA LIVE said, let's try not to make each other feel too uncomfortable in here. Also, this topic isn't there just for the CB-decision; we could potentially jump over to the Rachni, Genophage or any other choice you guys feel like discussing.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Rekkampum wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

It depends on your morals rekk,would it be personally beneficial? Absolutely,having billions in credits and tons of bodies to throw at whatever may come your way,why not,though if you aren't as smart and charismatic as TIM it may prove to be tricky.

I accidentally read TIM as TMI and got a nice flash of the South Park episode. Just a random note.

Well, in response, I could hire Liara as my secretary, and Mordin to oversee the experiments.  

Hmm.Mordin+near unlimited monies+whatever depot TIM pulls these mad scientist from...Implications pleasant.

Cerberus+SB...very enticing.

[Sisterofshane]

Rekkampum wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

These threads get locked for a reason. I suggest everyone start cooling down. As far as I'm aware, this was more about debating then "this side is wins" or gains a point. Because if that's the case, all threads involving the Collector Base choice like this should be locked for simply serving no purpose then insulting and flame wars. Since that's what they end up becoming.

Lotion Soronnar, you've literally called SWM's Shepard an idiot, and trying to end arguments by telling the other they're losing. All because you disagreed. Insults alone could get you banned.

Same deal to Someone with Mass insulting Lotion's spelling.

I suggest you guys either take a break, or ignore each other.

In before the Lock down.

Throwing out random question to steer debate into a new direction: is it more morally beneficial to run Cerberus yourself, or to destroy it?

I dunno.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely.  It takes a person with considerable will-power  and questionable ethics to make such important decisions at such a high level within an organization such as Cerberus.  In the end, I think that if you weren't at least as ruthless as TIM, you would fail miserably and Cerberus would just fall apart.
So, if you take on the mantle of Cerberus wanting it to succeed, then no, because you would in essence be no better than TIM.  If you took over with the purpose of morally "cleansing" the operation, it might work, but probably not.  It would probably just be easier to destroy than retrain it from the ground up.

[Rekkampum]

TMA LIVE wrote...

To run Cerberus yourself depends on you. If you're a xenophode who's hungry for power or human dominance, then that's kind of bad. But someone like Miranda or Jacob (or both) could change things for the better. If you can make the best of things, why not? Keeping Cerberus not running by TIM can be beneficial to anyone. Morally depends on you or the person taking over. Though I'd probably prefer to restructure it, since as Miranda says, many join out of simple xenophodia.

Excellent. Do you feel you could ever see this new Cerberus faction working with the Council, or would you still need to be an autonomous so you can bypass the bureacratic red tape?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Rekkampum wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

To run Cerberus yourself depends on you. If you're a xenophode who's hungry for power or human dominance, then that's kind of bad. But someone like Miranda or Jacob (or both) could change things for the better. If you can make the best of things, why not? Keeping Cerberus not running by TIM can be beneficial to anyone. Morally depends on you or the person taking over. Though I'd probably prefer to restructure it, since as Miranda says, many join out of simple xenophodia.

Excellent. Do you feel you could ever see this new Cerberus faction working with the Council, or would you still need to be an autonomous so you can bypass the bureacratic red tape?

Would be kind of hard to advertise

Cerberus:Now under new management.

[Sisterofshane]

Rekkampum wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

To run Cerberus yourself depends on you. If you're a xenophode who's hungry for power or human dominance, then that's kind of bad. But someone like Miranda or Jacob (or both) could change things for the better. If you can make the best of things, why not? Keeping Cerberus not running by TIM can be beneficial to anyone. Morally depends on you or the person taking over. Though I'd probably prefer to restructure it, since as Miranda says, many join out of simple xenophodia.

Excellent. Do you feel you could ever see this new Cerberus faction working with the Council, or would you still need to be an autonomous so you can bypass the bureacratic red tape?

Ah, and the inevitable slide begins.

One can reasonably conclude to remain seperate, because you could be more "effective".  After all, what kind of people would front such large sums of money to the alliance part 2?

But I always saw regulations as being there to keep certain people from getting "carried away (*cough, TIM, cough cough*)

So if one does decide to fore-go all such red tape, what is there to stop you from concluding that experiments like the one on Akuze are not only deemed acceptable, but necessary?

It's all downhill from there.