3618 réponses à ce sujet

[alperez]

TMA LIVE wrote...


Also, saying he knew nothing of the base is suggesting you don't consider the possiblity that TIM is lying to you.

This to me though is the essence of everything that's wrong about the basekeeper argument, the validity of which lives or dies not on whether or not the base could be potentially something you can use but whether or not you trust TIM/Cerberus.

Every other argument fails because in essence that's what it boils down to, whether the base contains tech or info or whether its useful against the reapers is down to one thing and one thing only are cerberus trustworthy, which is why i believe the choice is given to you in such a black and white fashion.

If the base had potential positives then why make the choice so black and white, destroy or hand it over, no other option exists for a reason.

Your shown throughout 2 games examples of cerberus's work, your forced to work with them so you can gain a clear understanding of who they are and what they represent and then your given a simple choice, do you or do you not trust them.

If you do and you believe in either their methods or thier words then you keep the base, if not you destroy it.

Now no doubt we'll get people saying your destroying the potential tech because you distrust cerberus and that in doing this your either

A. letting morality blind you to a worse threat

B. putting your own feelings of distrust before everyone else in the galaxy

0r some combination of the above.

But the simplest truth in the simplest form is that the choice is not about potential for defeating the reapers or not, its much more basic than that, its whether or not you can trust that the base is something you hand over to these people or not.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Saphra Deden wrote...

HomelessGal wrote...

If we took over Cerberus, then at least we could discontinue use of the logo on everything.

Cerberus needs to be decentralized. The Illusive Man's importance is a liability.

Cerberus needs a direct underling to the Illusive Man/Woman: One to embody power, the other to crave it.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Who? How? The Illusive Man maintains too much privacy. If he goes down Cerberus goes down with him. Cerberus should be more like Al Qeada.

Well, for a man being as cautious as he claims himself to be, it'd just be sloppy to not have a backup.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

There are advantages and disadvantages to how TIM has chosen to organize Cerberus.

Pros: Cells are capable of remaining isolated from wide-scale infiltration while retaining cohesiveness in their objectives and avoiding stepping on each others' toes.

Cons: It is dependent on a singular individual to guide its efforts, possibly resulting in tunnel-vision of goals or decapitation.

The possibility of decapitation of Cerberus has been limited by TIM's extensive efforts to isolate himself and secure his channels of communication.

My understanding of Cerberus' organization is that TIM, while knowing everything that goes on in all of his operations, exerts very little actual physical control over the specifics within the cell.  "Get it done, I'll make sure that you have everything *I think* you need." type control.
That's not to say that he is not in control.  I think he specifically makes it seem as if he is not in full control when he is.  And better still, he provides direction.  It's not as if his cell leaders approach HIM with ideas on what he should or shouldn't be providing money for.  I think it is safe to say that without the puppet master, the puppet would not dance.
He most certainly wouldn't set up his organization for failure in the event of his death.  Unless he thinks that he is immortal.  I don't think the latter is the case.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

TIM dies Lazarus 2.0

Unless of course you throw him into a sun in the belief that it will make him more dead.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 07 août 2011 - 02:01 .

[alperez]

Btw just wanted to point out a tweet that about the base that's interesting.

@DawnTreader_LMB:

@macwalterslives @TheTMA2 Both situations give TIM the info. So, there will be a significant difference if I destroyed or not the base?



@macwalterslives:

@DawnTreader_LMB @TheTMA2 Oh yes. Very big.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Awesome.

Maybe teh Cerbs are stronger if you give them the base.

[alperez]

Homeless

I agree the tweets aren't really going to be negative, its just the emphatism of that one that made me put it here, its almost to me like making a point that it would, rather than saying something generic or open to suggestion.

[Goneaviking]

JPfanner wrote...

I was referencing your comment that humanity in general could replace the acknowledged specialists in that role.  Which I don't believe they currently could given their presentation and the situation in Mass Effect.  They're seen as bullies and upstarts by the other races (which the player is told multiple times) which isn't really the view that the asari are held in as mediators and bridge builders.  In time, humanity possibly could because situations and perceptions can change obviously.  I guess a lot might depend on your perspective on what role humanity should have too.  Pretty easy to exercise successful diplomacy when you're top dog for example.

I would argue that it'd be more correct to say it's easy to get what you want when you're the top dog, over exercising successful diplomacy. Bullying certainly qualifies as a form of diplomacy (gunboat and whatnot), but it also tends to create enemies for the future. Weaker powers may defer to a triumphalist power in the short term, but if they hold onto a resentment it can cost the great power dearly later on.

That's why I agree that humans would make a poor replacement for the asari who function as powerbrokers par excellence in Mass Effect. They're careful not to alienate others and are generous in doling out concessions that cost them little or nothing but which have great symbolic value for the recipient (Shepard's spectre status for example.)

[Unpleasant Implications]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Unpleasant Implications wrote...

I destroyed the CB based on long view. Even if we did win because of it, the knowledge and the possibility of building a reaper would be out in the universe. The information on harvesting species to create super constructs... would be available to the universe. We may say that Cerberus would keep it secret but look at Wilson. TIM said himself Wilson was one of his most trusted agents. Imagine how many other "trusted agents" are on a payroll. This information can't be kept secret forever, it will be leaked, it will be known. Our world has extremists, the universe has extremists, those who would use this information to fuel their own goals and create their own Reaper. It would be starting another cycle of destruction. In my opinion, the sheer possibility of this information existing is reason enough to destroy the base.

When the repars come, everyone will be pecking at their corpses (assumign we win). The info will get one way or the other. You can't stop that.

and why would anyone want to get liquified?

My god, I leave for a day and I'm what, eight pages behind? That aside...

Just because you have the parts to build something doesn't mean you have the ability to. Besides, any parts we are able to salvage will be damaged beyond repair, and if the Reaper are as individualised as the Human-Reaper larva design makes us believe, we won't be able build another Reaper by just compiling parts.

And it doesn't come down to something so simple as "Who wants to know what being a smoothie feels like!?"
It's more like, "Who wants a leg up on anyone else and further the goals we desire to change the galaxy!?"
"Us! Us! We shall give our lives for the cause!!" says the extremists with Reaper building information.

[JonnyOwen]

I'm just afraid that my Shepard, the one that me and him have been through hell together, and the one that I am emotionally tied to; since well, he is me; has ballsed some things up and doomed the entire galaxy. ****.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

JonnyOwen wrote...

I'm just afraid that my Shepard, the one that me and him have been through hell together, and the one that I am emotionally tied to; since well, he is me; has ballsed some things up and doomed the entire galaxy. ****.

:huh:Wha?
Oh nvm I used the process of elimination,and I now understand what you meant.

I'm sure you can't royally F yourself until the third game.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 07 août 2011 - 07:01 .

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'm sure Cerberus' founders would find someone else to keep their interests in check.

Who? How? The Illusive Man maintains too much privacy. If he goes down Cerberus goes down with him. Cerberus should be more like Al Qeada.

The funders of Cerberus would likely simply start from scratch. Cerberus is not that large of an organization, and I am sure that those conspirators with a public face could probably recreate the organization in a reasonable amount of time.

Meanwhile, existing cells of Cerberus would likely go 'rogue' and either sell off their research to the highest bidder, trade it to the Alliance in exchange for amnesty from prosecution, or continue on with Cerberus's overall goal of human advancement on their own. What path they take would be determined by the nature of their activities.

The more militant branches would likely just become human-centric mercenary companies once their current missions were completed. Projects similar to Teltin or Overlord would probably either seek legit employment or go the trade for amnesty route.

[packardbell]

Considering their possible role in ME, I still stand my decision by destroying it.

[Ieldra]

alperez wrote...
But the simplest truth in the simplest form is that the choice is not about potential for defeating the reapers or not, its much more basic than that, its whether or not you can trust that the base is something you hand over to these people or not.

Actually no. The "simplest truth" is that those who destroy the base place a higher importance on the question of whether TIM can be trusted with it, while those who keep the base place a higher importance on the question of whether it can be useful against the Reapers.

And that exactly is the hook for my counterargument: can you trust TIM.....to do exactly what? I do trust TIM insofar that he wants himself, his organization and humanity to survive. And as far as anyone knows at the end of ME2, that means that he'll work to defeat the Reapers. I think I can also trust TIM to be pragmatic enough not to place human dominance before survival, .i.e. he will be open to co-operation if that's the only way to reach his goals.

I may not be able to trust TIM with anything else. But then, everything else...does not matter at the moment. Belief in Cerberus' methods, that's exactly not what this is about, and if those who destroy the base insist that it is, then they place an unduly high importance on this matter.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[pfhorlorn]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Cerberus needs a direct underling to the Illusive Man/Woman: One to embody power, the other to crave it.

Nice Darth Bane reference there; I almost missed it since I'm so tired.

Modifié par koopaonfire, 07 août 2011 - 08:35 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I trust that Cerberus will inevitably find a way to fail.

This picture sums it up.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 07 août 2011 - 08:59 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Unpleasant Implications wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
When the repars come, everyone will be pecking at their corpses (assumign we win). The info will get one way or the other. You can't stop that.

and why would anyone want to get liquified?

My god, I leave for a day and I'm what, eight pages behind? That aside...

Just because you have the parts to build something doesn't mean you have the ability to. Besides, any parts we are able to salvage will be damaged beyond repair, and if the Reaper are as individualised as the Human-Reaper larva design makes us believe, we won't be able build another Reaper by just compiling parts.

And it doesn't come down to something so simple as "Who wants to know what being a smoothie feels like!?"
It's more like, "Who wants a leg up on anyone else and further the goals we desire to change the galaxy!?"
"Us! Us! We shall give our lives for the cause!!" says the extremists with Reaper building information.

Except the very idea that the way to humanities domination is to build a reper of their own..whihc human smoothies..is absurd.
By studying the reapers and their tech, you could technicly build a ship just as big and powerfull as Sovereign (as it's using their tech) - except it's not controleld by na AI and it doesnt' have a human smoothie core.

There's 0 reason to mimic everything about ther repears.
There's 0 reason to try and re-create the reaper exactly or at all.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...
I would argue that it'd be more correct to say it's easy to get what you want when you're the top dog, over exercising successful diplomacy. Bullying certainly qualifies as a form of diplomacy (gunboat and whatnot), but it also tends to create enemies for the future. Weaker powers may defer to a triumphalist power in the short term, but if they hold onto a resentment it can cost the great power dearly later on.

That's why I agree that humans would make a poor replacement for the asari who function as powerbrokers par excellence in Mass Effect. They're careful not to alienate others and are generous in doling out concessions that cost them little or nothing but which have great symbolic value for the recipient (Shepard's spectre status for example.)

Any competent diplomat would do exactly that.

Human dimplomats and rules have been doing that for centuries.

And you are right, that beign top dog generates some resentment - and not only because oif what you do with that power. Just being powerfull is alone.
Even if you're the kindest and greatest ruler/nation that ever lived, other will still crave your pwoer out of envy or will fear and mistrust you because of what you CAN do with it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They have somewthing to fight for. Human domination and survival.
That goal will exist as long as humanity exists.

Tim or Cerberus doesn't have to take control of the goivernment to make that possible. Cerberus is already accomplishing it's goal by making humanity stronger from the shadows.

If TIM wanted to rule, he would have gone into politics.

Which he has.

And he's building an army. That's why he's trying to create super soldiers.

He has?
I dodn't see that in the lsit. I see him trying to buy off a representative. Wanting to have some influence and actually being in politics...two different things.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

^ No one sane would want to follow what the Reapers did.. With what TIM had displayed thus far in ME2, I cannot trust the evil that dwells within sapient beings would not take over. Who knows if the Reapers are vanquished, something else worse than them would not rise to take their place.

Modifié par Obsidian Gryphon, 07 août 2011 - 10:34 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

No, I got the question.  The other council races didn't get rid of other species because they saw them as inherently useful.
I countered that point as in reference to humans not needing other species to fill in our weak points.
And even if I overgeneralized, it was to illustrate the point that the other species RELY upon each other to complete their goals,  and that this would not be the case if humanity were to suddenly assume a majority of the power in the galaxy.
So, I ask you again, why would it be necessary to keep the other races around?  What exactly stops us from killing them if they get in the way of what we want?

No, sorry, I don't really see that reliance. Asari are just as capable warriors as turains are. There are no crippling overspecilizations in these species as far as I can see.

Each of the races would be very much capable of governing the universe alone - why not? They governed their own race and reached the stars alone.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it isn't there.  The interdependency of these species did not happen overnight.  It happened as galactic government evolved over so many hundreds of years.  Humanity would, too presumably gain these interdependencies as time went on, but as for now, we are too new to the relative galactic scene to have established such reliance.  And yet, the Council already relies upon us to do what they cannot -- things like colonize the Traverse.  Right now we want to abide by galactic law, which is why we play by their rules.  Anderson pretty much sums it up - we want more political power.  We want to have a more power to shape galactic rules to our favor.  We don't NEED any other race.

The codex on the Turians sums it up (yes I know, it only pertains to the Turians, but I think presumably the other races feel the same or they would not be council/citadel members, yes?): "the ruling Hierarchy understands they would lose more than they would gain if the other two races were ever removed.
" Not quite the case with humanity.

It's not a hard dependency.. It's more of a agreement to share some task and responsibilitites for convenience sake.

There's nothing stopping the Asari from expanding their fleet and taking over the defense. Yet they don't particulary want to - and it would take resouces away from other things.
It's not a amtter of capability, it's almost a matter of convenience, evne for far older empires and races than humans.

The humnas in ME are not really capable of governing over the Citadel races yet. We're already stretching our resources thin as it is - thus humanity is in the same boat as everyone else.
It would be really inconvenient for humanity if it were try to do everything.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

To run Cerberus yourself depends on you. If you're a xenophode who's hungry for power or human dominance, then that's kind of bad. But someone like Miranda or Jacob (or both) could change things for the better. If you can make the best of things, why not? Keeping Cerberus not running by TIM can be beneficial to anyone. Morally depends on you or the person taking over. Though I'd probably prefer to restructure it, since as Miranda says, many join out of simple xenophodia.

"For the better" is a interesting definition.

LEe's say you replace TIM wiht someone else who shuts down half the projects and slows down the pace pf researhc in others, due to his moral objections to everything and draconic safety precautions.

And then the reapers caome and kill you all, since the super-weapon agaisnt them isn't ready yet (or researched at all)..and as you look at the galaxy in flames, your last though would be "dang..TIM could have pushed the weapon out in time..."

Rather depressing really..