3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

HomelessGal wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
Extra income from shampoo,aftershave,sunglasses and hats would possibly fall.

Cerberus-the flamethrower?

The kids love it!

We could also sell "TIM's guide to being a super space pimp".

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



Yes, he could have assumed that. In fact, he did assuem they have a base of operations. Yet he knew nothing about that theoretical base.

Hence, why there was no plan to capture it. Because you cannot make such plans without data.

So knowing a base of operations exists but not knowing the specifics of that base of operations means that he could not have a plan in mind to take over that base, seriously that's the argument your now using.

He couldn't have made a plan because he didn't have the full data at his disposal when coming up with a plan, re-read what your saying and try to logically analyse it.

Or do you really believe that every military operation ever initiated would only proceed with complete and total information about the target?

It wouldn't proceed untill they had ENOUGH.

If you dont' know the size or the enemy base, the defences it has, the basic layout, the number of troops on it, nor any weakpoitns or acess points.....you cannot really plan.

They didn't even plan how to enter the base untill AFTER EDI made a basic scan so they can know hte internal layout.

What was tim supposed to do?
"Hey Shep. Use a timed radiation pulse on the bases reactor to kill everyone on board. True, I don't enen know if their reactor will be capable of doing it, nor where it's located, nor if it will be big enough to affect the whole base.
I also don't know how well defended that base is, so try not to get intercepted by a dozen collector warships and shot down befire you reach it, k? Thnxbai!"

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

I still think that TIM could have let me know about this possibility earlier, like while we were rescuing our crew or preparing to 'hold the line'.

Now that is a possibility.

Of coure, we have to ask ourselves how long it took for TIM to analyze the base plans and come up with a capturing strategy. Something tells me that takes a while.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Of course. As a human superematists group, there's bound to be xenophobes..But then again, there are xenophobes everywhere.
And how muh is "too many"... by Miranda standards? She also implies there are many who join for the right reasons.
And the Cerberus personell aboard your ships - they are all alien friendly. Would they work for Cerberus if it's goals were anihilation of all aliens? No.

So all this proves is that there are xenophobs among cerberus personell.
And that exterminatiosn of aliens is not Cerberuses goal.

The fact that Miranda who's supposedly high enough up in Cerberus's hierarchy to be given responsibility for the lazurus project suggests that there are too many who join for that reason suggests that she herself may feel marginlised by those xenophobes, which is why she is happy that Shepard is joining in her opinion for the right reasons.

We got no numbers. We don't how muw much "too many" is.
A handfull xenophobes may already bee too much for Mirandas tastes.

As for the people on your ship, it make absolutely no sense that someone as intelligent as TIm supposedly is would put anyone other than personell who show Cerberus in the best possible light to someone he knows may not share Cerberus's beliefs.

Possible, but given the nature of the mission, he'd also favor the best for the job. And there's also the possibiltiy of Shep sharing their beliefs.

But either way, the point if you got so many nice people working for Cerberus - so Cerberus MUST be doing something right for them to stick around. Can you really imagine Kelly sticking around if TIM were to go "Oh yeah..like Cerberus is gonna kill off all aliens".

Its not so much that there are xenophobes in Cerberus that really is the issue, its that these people's views or actions are accepted by Cerberus as being ok simply because they may also share a goal that cerberus has.

Given that TIM does not throw away usefull resources, I don't really wonder that he tolerates xenophobes. They probably have their uses or are probably skilled enough.
Yes there are xenophobes everywhere in the universe, so it's not really an issue for me at all.

[alperez]

Ieldra2 wrote...

*snip

The problem i have with this though is in the way the choice is presented to us, if the reality of the choice was as you put it, that is whether or not it could be useful against the reapers, then why present it as a simple black and white choice of destroying it or handing it to cerberus.

By presenting it that way it is making the choice not about the base itself but more about whether or not you trust cerberus.

Like i said if the base was important overall then why present the choice of keeping it or not with the caveat of if you keep it you must hand it over to cerberus, if your goal wasn't to make Cerberus a key factor (i argue the key factor) in the choice itself.

What you can or cannot trust TIM to do is actually the key in the choice for the simple reason that in keeping the base you are in fact handing it over to TIM and not keeping it yourself.

Your argument is that Cerberus method's or motivations or what your or my understanding of those methods or motivations may be, isn't actually that important and that people who place an importance on this are giving it too much importance.

But again your forgetting the simple fact that you do not have control over the base once you make your choice, so the importance of who does control the base is really the key point in your decision making.

If i control the base or have the ability to use it how i see fit then of course the base itself becomes the key, but i don't TIM does, so he becomes the single most important factor in keeping or destroying the base itself.

Whether or not you trust him or cerberus then becomes exactly what imo the choice really is all about, if you do, if you believe what TIM says then you make the choice because the ramifications of that choice are already clear in your own mind.

If you don't then the only option available to you is to destroy the base and considering how its presented i believe that this is what the intention was all along.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


It wouldn't proceed untill they had ENOUGH.

If you dont' know the size or the enemy base, the defences it has, the basic layout, the number of troops on it, nor any weakpoitns or acess points.....you cannot really plan.

They didn't even plan how to enter the base untill AFTER EDI made a basic scan so they can know hte internal layout.

What was tim supposed to do?
"Hey Shep. Use a timed radiation pulse on the bases reactor to kill everyone on board. True, I don't enen know if their reactor will be capable of doing it, nor where it's located, nor if it will be big enough to affect the whole base.
I also don't know how well defended that base is, so try not to get intercepted by a dozen collector warships and shot down befire you reach it, k? Thnxbai!"

The whole operation though is a leap of faith in the first place which kinda negates your argument, we're sent in with all those factors already in place, we have no idea of any of those things or even if a plan to destroy the base itself will work.

Practically every military operation would have a contigency plan, some of these would not be revealed to those carrying out the operation until whoever was running the op felt it was time to do so.

So why is it so hard for you to accept that TIM would have different contingencies and that he would not reveal those until he was ready to and that one of those contingencies may very well have been to take over and keep the base?

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

We got no numbers. We don't how muw much "too many" is.
A handfull xenophobes may already bee too much for Mirandas tastes.

We have no numbers that's true and one could be too many for Miranda's tastes, but the phrase too many suggests that in the one opinion we're given, the one piece of evidence in game given to us by someone relatively high up in the organisation that this number is a problem.

Possible, but given the nature of the mission, he'd also favor the best for the job. And there's also the possibiltiy of Shep sharing their beliefs.

But either way, the point if you got so many nice people working for Cerberus - so Cerberus MUST be doing something right for them to stick around. Can you really imagine Kelly sticking around if TIM were to go "Oh yeah..like Cerberus is gonna kill off all aliens".

Considering one of the people he sends you out to recruit is an assassin and he has someone he uses specifically for his own assainations (kai leng) then its more likely that its not just suitability for the job thats his overriding concern.

As for people working for Cerberus, well people work for organisations or companies they disagree with and continue to do so for many reasons even if they passionately disagree with the people they work for.

A lot of the Sr2 crew seem to have had no other choice other than to work for cerberus, Joker works for them because of the ship, while ken and gabby seem to have no idea about cerberus whatsoever.

Given that TIM does not throw away usefull resources, I don't really wonder that he tolerates xenophobes. They probably have their uses or are probably skilled enough.
Yes there are xenophobes everywhere in the universe, so it's not really an issue for me at all.

The problem though is that he actively recruits xenophobes rather than just accepts that they may be a neccessary evil.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Considering one of the people he sends you out to recruit is an assassin and he has someone he uses specifically for his own assainations (kai leng) then its more likely that its not just suitability for the job thats his overriding concern.

Eh? Waht's your point here?

As for people working for Cerberus, well people work for organisations or companies they disagree with and continue to do so for many reasons even if they passionately disagree with the people they work for.

A lot of the Sr2 crew seem to have had no other choice other than to work for cerberus, Joker works for them because of the ship, while ken and gabby seem to have no idea about cerberus whatsoever.

That works only up to a point. You don't really work for killers if you pasinately disagree wiht killing.
Besides, people you talk too seem to be fine with Cerberus and have no qualms working for them. The only who ever sez anything is Miranda, and it's hardly damning.
If your point is that everyone who's nice works for Cerberus out of ignorance, then I'm labeling you a consipracy theorist.

The problem though is that he actively recruits xenophobes rather than just accepts that they may be a neccessary evil.

The way I see it, he recruits skilled people he could use. I haven't noticed that being a xenophobe is a pre-requisite for being Cerberus.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


It wouldn't proceed untill they had ENOUGH.

If you dont' know the size or the enemy base, the defences it has, the basic layout, the number of troops on it, nor any weakpoitns or acess points.....you cannot really plan.

They didn't even plan how to enter the base untill AFTER EDI made a basic scan so they can know hte internal layout.

What was tim supposed to do?
"Hey Shep. Use a timed radiation pulse on the bases reactor to kill everyone on board. True, I don't enen know if their reactor will be capable of doing it, nor where it's located, nor if it will be big enough to affect the whole base.
I also don't know how well defended that base is, so try not to get intercepted by a dozen collector warships and shot down befire you reach it, k? Thnxbai!"

The whole operation though is a leap of faith in the first place which kinda negates your argument, we're sent in with all those factors already in place, we have no idea of any of those things or even if a plan to destroy the base itself will work.

Practically every military operation would have a contigency plan, some of these would not be revealed to those carrying out the operation until whoever was running the op felt it was time to do so.

So why is it so hard for you to accept that TIM would have different contingencies and that he would not reveal those until he was ready to and that one of those contingencies may very well have been to take over and keep the base?

There is a differene between a "rough theoretical plan" and a "plan that will work".

Also, it is impossible to tell before it if would be even possible to capture the base AT ALL.
When you have so little to go with, making plans is useless. Such plans never survive contact with the enemy anyway.

Does everything about TIM has to be nefarious for you people? God help if things such a s practiciality ever factor into it.....
Next thing you'll be telling me the cigarettes he smokes are made out of kittens.

[STRYFEDX]

I don't think the SR2 crew the best cross section of Cerberus..

TIM hand pick the crew to work with Shepard who is pro alien or at least cool with the ideal work with aliens as needed.. Plus TIM picks alien specialist so having a crew calling Garrus the tarain version of the N-word would be counter productive..

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And 2 operatives from 2 novels does? I kinda think 20 people >>> 2 people as refference.

And what do you call tIM? He's the head of Cerberus, isn't he?

What about the Cerberus manifesto? Where does it say "kill all aliens"?

It's pretty much obvious the Cerberus personel on your ship don't want to kill off aliens. So why are they working for Cerberus then?



Your pathological hatered of Cerberus stopped being funny ages ago.

This again?

Do you really not know when to stop an argument? You have already been confronted with evidence against this and you didn't respond.

Cerberus is  a national socialist organization. They believe in a cause- that is, that humanity has a rightful place in comparison to the aliens. Dominating them. Do you want to know when that is restated? Right when humanity is either the single race to control the Council, or the most poilitically dominant one.

Read Ascension.

Oh and hint: If you state that a cell is ordinary when both of the leaders don't trust TIM by the end, some of them know Shepard, and a good part of them left the Alliance and joined Cerberus during the previous months, that goes against your argument.

Oh and guess which part of the crew is the one that has been portreyed properly.

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I trust that Cerberus will inevitably find a way to fail.

This picture sums it up.

Inb4 but they didn't fail! They succeeded in an unorthodox manner, you guys.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I know you're trying to say something here, but you're making no sense.
How exactly does anything there prove the Cerberus doesn't want to save huamnity and itself from being exterminated?[/quote]
My argument is simple and not particularly long.

The bolded part of your post is a testimony that you just don't get it in general.
To save a single race when you have the means to save more, or another race, is the very essence of racism. Not all races have the same rights,apparently.

And if you followed the previous posts, this is what you would have read:

Post A (Mine): Cerberus is not trustworthy
Post B: They are trustworthy to save themselves.
Post C (Mine): Even if TIM himself was a trustworthy person, which he isn't, they have showed their incompetence at much simpler situations, and they are therefore not trustworthy:

[quote]
Well, sure, I didn't really expect an explanation as to why you even believe that, since it's an obvious counter-argument for the sake of being a counter-argument and defending your position, but...really?

No, they are not.
Even if we agree that TIM will be trustworthy enough in a situation like this, which is simply not true as seen at least twice in Mass Effect 2 (Setting up two traps, that of the Collector Vessel and the other with the VS, along with some other lies, such as Liara, various attempts at manipulation, etc.), they are definitely not to be trusted with saving their own skins.

Almost causing a technolodgical apocalypse, becoming indoctrinated while knowing about indoctrination, being unable to contain Subject Zero, Ascension, Retribution, and Trident are only few examples of that.[/quote]

The fact that Cerberus could very well just go ahead and save only their own asses or only humanity is exactly why Cerberus is not trustworthy.


[quote]no.[/quote]
Stop doing that. Don't like it, don't read it. If you can't provide a reasonable rebuttal, then don't respond, you are simply wasting space.

For all we know, the Reapers hunt down organics to survive and reproduce, just like we hunt down animals to feed ourselves, which stops their actions from being immoral by most standards.


[quote]The base has the potential to save us.
Your redicolous claims that it is abosuletly worthless are...absolutely worthless.[/quote]
And this is the core of their argument, guys.

You simply state "The base can save us", and keep on with that wishful thinking.  This is another factor due to which I always tend to destroy the base, and it's time other people saw it as well.

But no, you know what, that statement just says "The base that didn't end up building a single Reaper will -by itself- possibly defeat multiple thousands of them."



[quote]Again a lot of BS with no value.
Yes, the possibiliteis are infinite (or nearly infinite..it's only an expression ayynway, and I'd hoped you'd not be so anal to go after it...but I was wrong apperanlty)

Your knowledge of technology and physics is abysmal if you can make claims like that.[/quote]
Oh dear.

The point of scientific research is exactly to make small advances through various projects.

Infinite or near infinite is a retarded phrase to use just to cause shock and awe, so I'll go ahead and not even debate over it.

Our knowledge is limited? Speak for yourself. We know exactly what the technolodgy behind the offensive weapons in the MEverse is, it's you who can't explain to which point any of that tech can be improved to the point that it will ensure our success.



[quote]that remains to be seen. [/quote]
Reeeally?
Cerberus is hunting you for half of the game, with new offensive tech only TIM could have funded, but giving them the base was a good choice.

Cool.


[quote]
And...what are you saying exactly anyway?
Assuming that Cerberus will turn against you, is less valid than assuming that they will somehow distribute the CB tech (which you assume that will be helpful) to all species?[/quote]

Yes..it is.
[/quote]
That is a non-answer and a non-argument. Try again.

Modifié par Phaedon, 07 août 2011 - 03:20 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...
This is the only statement in your thread I'm going to even bother responding to. Lotion covered the other bases well enough. If you cannot apply your morals to practical situations, then you have flawed morals. My morals are based on the preservation of life, and beyond that logic and reason dictate the details.

Under what moral basis are you operating?
[/quote]
Under what moral basis? 

Okay then.


Kill a cow in order to eat it and survive, and you are perfectly moral.

Kill a cow because you are a sadistic ******, and you are immoral.

Kill a person in self defence, and you are moral.

Kill a person for any other reason, and you are not.


Necessity is the key.


And I'll just repost my post here:
[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]SandTrout wrote...

A) They can be trusted to save their own skins,
[/quote]
Well, sure, I didn't really expect an explanation as to why you even believe that, since it's an obvious counter-argument for the sake of being a counter-argument and defending your position, but...really?

No, they are not.
Even if we agree that TIM will be trustworthy enough in a situation like this, which is simply not true as seen at least twice in Mass Effect 2 (Setting up two traps, that of the Collector Vessel and the other with the VS, along with some other lies, such as Liara, various attempts at manipulation, etc.), they are definitely not to be trusted with saving their own skins.

Almost causing a technolodgical apocalypse, becoming indoctrinated while knowing about indoctrination, being unable to contain Subject Zero, Ascension, Retribution, and Trident are only few examples of that.


[quote] The Reapers will wipe out all existing sapient species, and actually have the means to succeed. Anything that Cerberus may do after the Reapers is not as bad as what the Reapers WILL do if they are not stopped,[/quote]
Pragmatically or morally?

Because you know, whatever Cerberus does has the potential to be multiple times more morally worse than what the Reapers do.

And that's besides the point, what is your argument? That the base will save us? That Cerberus will give us the base? That Cerberus will not use the base selectively?

Because you know, that's assuming that the base will alone save us from the Reapers. A ridiculous claim, as I have explained multiple times. 

The base itself can of course not save us. That base did NOT create a single Reaper. And we want to use it to compete with multiple thousands...

...no, wait, not just that, we want to use it in a way to surpass the Reapers.


And then there is the "but combined with other tech it can do stuff, imagine the endless possibilities!" card. The one that when it reads itself with some attention, it will want to jump out the nearest airlock.

If you claim that you will combine the Reaper Tech with conventional tech, then the possibilities are definitely not infinite. They are very "finite" actually.

Conventional technolodgy is limited, and it is definitely not unknown. The fact that you can't think of any of conventional tech that could give us the edge (although someone did suggest upgrading our MA canons to the point they are multiple times the strength of that that the Reapers have...somehow), is testimony as to how the CB can be of no use to us in defeating the Reapers.

It is only of potential use to Cerberus. And not in defeating the Reapers.



[quote]C) Meta-gaming does not apply to discussions of valid reason that an IC Shepard would or would not do anything. I am only ignoring point that have already been dealt with or are completely invalid to this discussion in any case.[/quote]
You can try to ignore it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't ensure that saving the Collector Base is after all, a bad choice to make.

And...what are you saying exactly anyway?
Assuming that Cerberus will turn against you, is less valid than assuming that they will somehow distribute the CB tech (which you assume that will be helpful) to all species?

Right.

Anyway, we do know that Cerberus will turn against your allies at some point.
They have extremist beliefs, have already tried to grasp political opportunities with a much stabler Alliance, and....they are wanted by multiple species in the galaxy. 

[quote]TIM didn't know with certainty, but he speculated that it might be the reason that no other ship has successfuly navigated the O4 relay. He states this explicitly. He presented that as something to be looked for, by the research team, if it existed.[/quote]
What are his exact words, if he stated so explicitly?

Did he also explain how exactly the research team found the Reaper IFF when they, not only were not looking for an IFF, but generally something that allows Reapers to pass through that particular relay?

Did he also happen to explain how come the research team never reported discovering the IFF?

[quote]And machines are required to build stuff, like weapons that were produced at the CB. Those machines would require some sort of programing or baseline data to operate. The concept is not that difficult, you just ignore it, and claim that there is no usable data at the CB.[/quote]Yes, exactly, what else? Go ahead.

You explicitly state how mass production works, do you realize the huge flaw in your statement?

[quote]Yes, all of those things that we did between ME1 and ME2 removed tactical advantages that the Reapers had, and you are correct that it was not enough on its own to stop the Reapers. That doesn't mean that we should have just discarded those advantages.[/quote]
Uh, I am rebutting your ridiculous claim that we are "doing good". 

[quote]As for lacking any strategic advantages, you are incorrect. We can build/rebuild fleets, the Reapers cannot.
.Even if we take out 1 Reaper per engagement, that is a permanent loss for the Reapers, while we can rebuild any lost ships. This is where the hit-and-run tactics with the fleet can come into play.[/quote]
Uh-huh, sure we can.

Never mind that

• We didn't have enough resources to be building thousands of ships before, but somehow now we will be able to,
• The Reapers will be attacking strategic points when attacking us, such as factories and mining sites,
• We don't have the means to go around and just collect resources, because guess what, the Reapers want to kill every single one of us,
• We will have the manpower to not only man the ships but also collect resources and build ships, when our homeworlds and major worlds which could go ahead and host 99% of our species are isolated and reaped.

Oh, and guess what you guys.

Not only will we do all that, but we will be rebuilding thousands of ships with our new tech!

Oh, you want to talk hit and run?

It took two major fleets and the Destiny Ascension to take out Sovereign (not that they managed to do it, but anyway...), and the Alliance, in it's prime state, with a free Earth, several factories and manpower, after two years, they were "still rebuilding" and "were too weak to protect their colonies".

And hey, that happenned to be:

A SINGLE Reaper.






[quote]If we can muster adequate firepower, then hit a single Reaper with everything we have, blow it, and run. Even if we loose 10 ships (which is less than against Sovereign, IIRC), those are 10 ships that we can rebuild, while the Reaper is not going to get replaced for the next 50k years. We DO outnumber them billions to 1, and we have vast pools of manpower to draw from, and industrial bases that can be used to start pumping out warships at a significant rate.[/quote]

• Adaquate firepower? You do realize that we couldn't do that the last time around?
• That Reaper would happen to be alone? And it wouldn't want to call for backup? Cool.
• The Reaper is not going to be replaced for 50K years? The Collectors were already reaping our colonies and building a new Reaper, WITHOUT the Reapers.
• Vast pools of manpower? You do realize that major homeworlds would be isolated, and have been isolated based on what we know.
• Industrial bases? Yeah sure. Along with the resources. Hey, we couldn't do it last time when we weren't being attacked, didn't have our homeworld invaded, were able to collect resources from anywhere we wanted, and didn't have our factories attacked, but yeah, sure, we can do it this time. The possibilities are endless.

[quote]The Thanix is a crude copy of a Reaper main weapon, and there is no doubt in my mind that there are ways to refine it by increasing its output, efficiency, and other aspects. Just because we have a firearm doesn't mean that we cannot improve firearms. We have been for the past 500+ years.[/quote]
Unless we already have the original Reaper data that resulted to the Thanix, but there is not a single indication to show that the Collectors had even started building a main weapon for the HR.

[quote]The fundamental point has been that the CB would increase our chances, and is to be part of many aspects that also increase our chances, not be a binary, as you are claiming! I really want to say things to you that would get me banned right now.[/quote]
Repeating your wishful thinking is NOT an argument.

It has already been explained why the CB alone does not increase our chances, and why even combined with other tech it will not.

We either die or we live.

[quote]Power supplies,[/quote]
Yes, what would they do? How would they help us destroy the Reapers.


[quote]shields,[/quote]
What shields? The HR didn't have any and you know it.

[quote]the Collector Vessel's main weapon,[/quote]
Even if you just hadn't essentially stated "Hey sure, we have a Reaper main gun, but the CB's main gun will obviously help us defeat the Reapers",

it has arguably lesser firepower than that of the Thanix and in comparison to that of a Reaper, it is laughable.

Not to mention that the Thanix has yet to be retrofitted to every single vessel in the galaxy right now, but apparently that one would be.

Cool.


[quote]its scanners that could detect the Normandy in spite of stealth technology,[/quote]
Because the Reapers are playing hide and seek, correct?

[quote]the Collector rifle that you end up with as a Heavy Weapon,[/quote]
In what way does that help in defeating the Reapers?

[quote]biotic implants,[/quote]
Huh?

[quote]FTL communications.[/quote]
Except that that already exists, and the Collectors didn't have it.


[quote]Way to ignore Ascension. You're the one who brought up Conatix, not me. My point was Ascension.[/quote]
Way to NOT read Ascension.

The L4 implants had nothing to do with Cerberus.

All that Cerberus did was to send some serums that ended up degrading the subject's condition and were severly harmful towards the subject as well (Hint: Seizures).

And yes, I still remember that the original point was about Cerberus creating all of the biotic amps, and I do know that you are trying to change the topic.

[/quote]

Modifié par Phaedon, 07 août 2011 - 03:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...
This again?

Do you really not know when to stop an argument? You have already been confronted with evidence against this and you didn't respond.

Do you know when to stop?
And no, I haven't been confronted with any evidence.

Cerberus is  a national socialist organization. They believe in a cause- that is, that humanity has a rightful place in comparison to the aliens. Dominating them. Do you want to know when that is restated? Right when humanity is either the single race to control the Council, or the most poilitically dominant one.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be dominant.
That DOES NOT imply hatered of aliens or wanting their extermination - as may here constantly keep claiming that Cerberus wasnts to kill off all aleins.

Oh and hint: If you state that a cell is ordinary when both of the leaders don't trust TIM by the end, some of them know Shepard, and a good part of them left the Alliance and joined Cerberus during the previous months, that goes against your argument.

Oh and guess which part of the crew is the one that has been portreyed properly.

Gameplay bulls*****ery and Sheps super-charisma.

Those leaders themselves don't Consider Cerberus a terrorist organization adn they told you not to judge Cerberus so rashly. Not to mention they were quite happily working for Cerberus as is the entire crew.

And now you're going to tell me which crew member is portrayed "properly"?:lol::lol:
If I didn't know it any better it seems like you're tellimg me you know the characters better than the writers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I know you're trying to say something here, but you're making no sense.
How exactly does anything there prove the Cerberus doesn't want to save huamnity and itself from being exterminated?[/quote]
My argument is simple and not particularly long.

The bolded part of your post is a testimony that you just don't get it in general.
To save a single race when you have the means to save more, or another race, is the very essence of racism. Not all races have the same rights,apparently.

And if you followed the previous posts, this is what you would have read:

Post A (Mine): Cerberus is not trustworthy
Post B: They are trustworthy to save themselves.
Post C (Mine): Even if TIM himself was a trustworthy person, which he isn't, they have showed their incompetence at much simpler situations, and they are therefore not trustworthy:[/quote]

And I disagree with you.
Cerberus holds the humanity first mentality. which is normal. Do you prioritize the needs of your familiy over someone elsese? Yes you do.

Again, Cerberus wants to work with the aliens to defeat the reapers. Tim encourages you to do so.

If you manage to find one piece of evidence that Cerberus wants to eradicate other aliens races, I'll give in.




[quote]
The fact that Cerberus could very well just go ahead and save only their own asses or only humanity is exactly why Cerberus is not trustworthy.[/quote]

They can't do it alone..don't you get it?
Cerberus and humantiy need the other races just as much as they need them.

TIM is apprently smart enough to relize this...why aren't you?


[quote]
[quote]no.[/quote]
Stop doing that. Don't like it, don't read it. If you can't provide a reasonable rebuttal, then don't respond, you are simply wasting space.[/quote]

It doesn't merit any more than this.



[quote]
[quote]The base has the potential to save us.
Your redicolous claims that it is abosuletly worthless are...absolutely worthless.[/quote]
And this is the core of their argument, guys.

You simply state "The base can save us", and keep on with that wishful thinking.  This is another factor due to which I always tend to destroy the base, and it's time other people saw it as well.

But no, you know what, that statement just says "The base that didn't end up building a single Reaper will -by itself- possibly defeat multiple thousands of them."[/quote]

You know the difference here? Those of us who belive the base can help do so based on common sense and logic. you know..knowing how technology works and what's inside the base.
You claim that a amssive base (10km in length at least) filled wiht all kinds of tech and mechienery used to build a reaper (and a reaper corpse) would in no way advance our technology, defenses or weaponry.

This statement is so utterly senseless that I don't know how to respond to it. Flat and young Earth proponents make more sense than you!




[quote]
[quote]Again a lot of BS with no value.
Yes, the possibiliteis are infinite (or nearly infinite..it's only an expression ayynway, and I'd hoped you'd not be so anal to go after it...but I was wrong apperanlty)

Your knowledge of technology and physics is abysmal if you can make claims like that.[/quote]
Oh dear.

The point of scientific research is exactly to make small advances through various projects.

Infinite or near infinite is a retarded phrase to use just to cause shock and awe, so I'll go ahead and not even debate over it.

Our knowledge is limited? Speak for yourself. We know exactly what the technolodgy behind the offensive weapons in the MEverse is, it's you who can't explain to which point any of that tech can be improved to the point that it will ensure our success.[/quote]

I have and  Idid. But you cannot graps how technolgoy works nad how it INTERACTS and how one new inventions/discovery open MANY new possibilites and avenus.
The only thing you see is a single branch. Heck, you see a stick. While it's in fact a tree..or better yet, a forest. Multiple paths ot take, multiple possibilties.

And hostory proves this. go read some history books and see how many inventions and devices, designed for one purpose, were applied and used in advancing many other fields and devices. Uses the original creators never though of.

You spit on the creativity of human beings and the great inventors and visionaries.
People that were obviously not like you.



[quote]
[quote]that remains to be seen. [/quote]
Reeeally?
Cerberus is hunting you for half of the game, with new offensive tech only TIM could have funded, but giving them the base was a good choice.

Cool.f/quote]

Untill you don't know the final outcome...nope.

And it remains a metagaming arguments, which renders it null and void. Yet you constantly keep retuning to it. Desperate much?




[quote][quote]
And...what are you saying exactly anyway?
Assuming that Cerberus will turn against you, is less valid than assuming that they will somehow distribute the CB tech (which you assume that will be helpful) to all species?[/quote]

Yes..it is.
[/quote]
That is a non-answer and a non-argument. Try again.
[/quote]

It's a sufficient answer.

You're assumign a less likely scenario.
That everyone in cerberus will simply ignore the danger of reapers. That no one will disagree with TIM if he decides to keep all tech. that there will be no defectors and snitches. Taht TIM would even do something like that in the first place.

[Arijharn]

I agree completely with Lotion on that whole Cerberus dominance thingy. Sure there's bad apples inside the organisation, but drawing the conclusion that Cerberus wants to wipe out the other species is unsupported in any source.

Cerberus' actions in regard to human dominance is just an extreme version of nationalism.

[Darkelefantos1]

Yeah, but Cerberus will try to kill Shepard. And Paragon Shepard is gonna try to save all races he possibly can.

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Do you know when to stop?

Excuse me?

And no, I haven't been confronted with any evidence.

Unless I had already done that post twice already.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be dominant.
That DOES NOT imply hatered of aliens or wanting their extermination - as may here constantly keep claiming that Cerberus wasnts to kill off all aleins.

Turning your ears off selectively doesn't work.

What part of "rightfully"do you have trouble understanding?

Gameplay bulls*****ery

W
h
a
t
.

and Sheps super-charisma.

Shep's charisma made half of the crew to be actually people who joined a few months ago, and some of which who happen to know Shepard.

I'll just be reposting this until you give me an actual answer:

Oh and hint: If you state that a cell is ordinary when both of the leaders don't trust TIM by the end, some of them know Shepard, and a good part of them left the Alliance and joined Cerberus during the previous months, that goes against your argument.

Oh and guess which part of the crew is the one that has been portreyed properly.

Those leaders themselves don't Consider Cerberus a terrorist organization adn they told you not to judge Cerberus so rashly.

Stop pulling the "OMG we are not terrorists" card. They are legally terrorists because they obviously fit the legal definition of two different court systems.

Both of which happenned to condemn TIM by the way, one of them resigning, and the other by wondering if he made the right choice by joining Cerberus and praising you for destroying the base.

Not to mention they were quite happily working for Cerberus as is the entire crew.

Tell that to Jacob please.

Or Miranda. When she resigns. Or condemns TIM.

And now you're going to tell me which crew member is portrayed "properly"?:lol::lol:
If I didn't know it any better it seems like you're tellimg me you know the characters better than the writers.

Are you stating that the NPCs who sit around on consoles are portraited properly?

Modifié par Phaedon, 07 août 2011 - 03:54 .

[nicethugbert]

As it's been said before, Reeper Indoctrination = No Base For You = You Not Can Haz Base. There is no indication that any one has even attempted to thwart it in the slightest.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
By which screwed up standards is being an illegal pro-something group normal?


[quote]Do you prioritize the needs of your familiy over someone elsese? Yes you do.[/quote]
Do you think that your family members have more rights than anyone else, and do you have an entitlement over being over anyone else?

That's your problem, not mine.

Hell, your argument says that it's sufficient to just save humanity.

[quote]Again, Cerberus wants to work with the aliens to defeat the reapers. Tim encourages you to do so.

If you manage to find one piece of evidence that Cerberus wants to eradicate other aliens races, I'll give in.
[/quote]
Worst argument dodge ever.

[quote]And if you followed the previous posts, this is what you would have read:

Post A (Mine): Cerberus is not trustworthy
Post B: They are trustworthy to save themselves.
Post C (Mine): Even if TIM himself was a trustworthy person, which he isn't, they have showed their incompetence at much simpler situations, and they are therefore not trustworthy:[/quote]

Cerberus is not trustworthy because:

• TIM has lied to you in similar situations.
• They have shown to be incapable of much simpler tasks.

[quote]They can't do it alone..don't you get it?[/quote]
Source.

[quote]Cerberus and humantiy need the other races just as much as they need them.

TIM is apprently smart enough to relize this...why aren't you?[/quote]
At no point did TIM do anything to help another race, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that he did. What he did do is to go too far too many times to ensure the mere domination of the human race.


[quote]It doesn't merit any more than this.[/quote]
Enjoy your immoral hamburger then, you simply failed to respond to this

[quote]Pragmatically or morally?

Because you know, whatever Cerberus does has the potential to be multiple times more morally worse than what the Reapers do.[/quote]

At no point did you hold an argument or bother justifying it.




[quote]You know the difference here? Those of us who belive the base can help do so based on common sense and logic. you know..knowing how technology works and what's inside the base.[/quote]
Common sense and logic. That a base that did NOT create a single Reaper will defeat by itself multiple thousands.

Common, maybe. Sense and logic, hell no.

You know how tech works? What's inside the base? I thought that the possibilities are endless.
Last time I checked you provided some examples who couldn't have any significance -especially by themselves- those were answered, and then you switched to "but the possibilities are infinite!"

And again, if you think that using words and phrases with no real meaning or justification such as "No." "Agree!" or "logic and common sense" "infinite!" helps win an argument, then that's not just your problem, but also the hypocrisy of the people who hold the same stance as you do and don't bother to rebutt you.

At least Someone With Mass answered some of my points and I had a constructive debate with him. 

All that is seen here is the simplistic statement of "The possibilities are infinite!" and the downright refusal of further explanation.


[quote]You claim that a amssive base (10km in length at least) filled wiht all kinds of tech and mechienery used to build a reaper (and a reaper corpse) would in no way advance our technology, defenses or weaponry.

This statement is so utterly senseless that I don't know how to respond to it. Flat and young Earth proponents make more sense than you![/quote]
Filled with tech and machinery? Source?

Tech and machinery to do what exactly? Build a single Reaper? Did they do it? Can the base help us defeat all of the Reaper using a small part of the technolodgy the Reapers have, who also happen to be more experienced, intelligent and multiple thousands the times that the HR would have been, should he have been completed?




[quote]I have and  Idid. But you cannot graps how technolgoy works nad how it INTERACTS and how one new inventions/discovery open MANY new possibilites and avenus. [/quote]
Yes, I can perfectly understand on a very basic level how technolodgy in the MEverse works. It is not too far from our own. 

How it interacts? BS.
There is very specific tech in the MEverse, you need to specify which one could be advanced to the point of making us win the Reapers, and how the CB would affect that, or else you are claiming that the CB is "standalone".



[quote]The only thing you see is a single branch. Heck, you see a stick. While it's in fact a tree..or better yet, a forest. Multiple paths ot take, multiple possibilties.[/quote]
Which are?

[quote]And hostory proves this. go read some history books and see how many inventions and devices, designed for one purpose, were applied and used in advancing many other fields and devices. Uses the original creators never though of.

You spit on the creativity of human beings and the great inventors and visionaries.
People that were obviously not like you.[/quote]
Give me examples and I'll explain exactly why you are wrong in every single one.



[quote]Untill you don't know the final outcome...nope.[/quote]

[quote]And it remains a metagaming arguments, which renders it null and void. Yet you constantly keep retuning to it. Desperate much?[/quote]
Are you serious? How could you manage ending up responding to my original argument which said "Yes, it is metagaming, but this is why you should stop acting as if it is a good choice." by saying "BUT THIS IS METAGAMING"


...


Desperate much? *trollface*


[quote]It's a sufficient answer.

You're assumign a less likely scenario. [/quote]
Uh..

you are claiming that a terrorist organization wanted by pretty much everyone will drop by and distribute valuable tech here and there.

And you of course assuming that any military fleets other than the Migrant one have remained somewhat intact.


[quote]That everyone in cerberus will simply ignore the danger of reapers. That no one will disagree with TIM if he decides to keep all tech. that there will be no defectors and snitches. Taht TIM would even do something like that in the first place.[/quote]
There were no defectors or snitches when TIM murdered two politicians. And a Pope. When he abducted asari and experimented on them. When he started killing Alliance soldiers. And Admirals who ask questions. There were none when he ordered building a camp which abducts children and experiments on them. None when he irradiated a colony and caused brain tumors to multiple infants. Do I need to go on?

Modifié par Phaedon, 07 août 2011 - 04:24 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Whoa,Pheadon,you lost man,he threw out his buzzwords. "common sense and logic"
Game over man,game over.

[Phaedon]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Whoa,Pheadon,you lost man,he threw out his buzzwords. "common sense and logic"
Game over man,game over.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Phaedon wrote...

And no, I haven't been confronted with any evidence.

Unless I had already done that post twice already.

And put nothing of value in them

Nothing wrong with wanting to be dominant.
That DOES NOT imply hatered of aliens or wanting their extermination - as may here constantly keep claiming that Cerberus wasnts to kill off all aleins.

Turning your ears off selectively doesn't work.

What part of "rightfully"do you have trouble understanding?

Every species has the right to strugle for dominance.

And what part of "how does tha prove they want to exterminate others" do you fail to see?
I'm still waiting for any evidence of that.
Not that it matters for the overall argument.

Oh and hint: If you state that a cell is ordinary when both of the leaders don't trust TIM by the end, some of them know Shepard, and a good part of them left the Alliance and joined Cerberus during the previous months, that goes against your argument.

Everyone on the Normandy follows Shep like a lost puppy.
If you happen to support TIM, those same leaders will stick with you.

Both of which happenned to condemn TIM by the way, one of them resigning, and the other by wondering if he made the right choice by joining Cerberus and praising you for destroying the base.

Only if Shep turns on TIM.
As I said, everyone follows Shep's lead.

[Pulletlamer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Only if Shep turns on TIM.
As I said, everyone follows Shep's lead.

Not true. The Virmire Survivor don't seems so convinced about working with Cerberus. And Tali (because the Flotilla attack), Jacob (he openly says Cerberus deserves it's title of terrorist) and Jack won't follow Shepard if he collaborated directly with TIM (by that I mean joining Cerberus. The SM is not the same since Shepard it's just doing a job for them, not working with them).

Hell even Miranda seems a bit doubtful about Cerberus at the end of the game. She has doubts on the organization and she even mentions most of the people that join Cerberus are xenophobic.

Mordin seems also reluctant to join you the first time you meet him.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 07 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[Sebby]

Yeah, the crew do follow Shepard like a lost puppy. If I didn't know any better I'd assume they were all programmed Loki mechs with a flesh costume like the Terminator.

Oh and Miranda turning against TIM if Shepard destroys the base is another case of the writers being nincompoops like with having everyone who favored keeping the base doing a complete 180 when back on the Normandy. There's no reason why a woman like Miranda who defended the experiments on husks on the basis of "they were already dead" would be against using the collector base due to some petty morality.