3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I'd like to note that during Arrival Admiral Hackett makes a comment on whether or not he's sure if the Normandy is a Cerberus vessel anymore, but only if the Collector Base was destroyed.

...He questions whether it is a Cerberus ship only after the SM regardless of the decision.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That depends.

Given the the CB is the best source of reaper knowledge available (with Sovy beign blown up and msot of it missing), and given Cerberses fanatical dedication and TIM's pushing...I'd say the CB and Cerberus have the biggest chances of producing something vital for the war (ar al least, the bigggest piece of the puzzle).

Not saying that no one else is doing anything, but the situation as it is, we need everything we can get.
And well..why WOULD we be screwed if we depended on Cerberus?

Because if something happens to them, that one organisation (like says, destroying themselves, or oddly joining the enemy, attacked by the Council, and lose too many resources to do research), then you're screwed. Because at the end of the day, they're just one group among many who could do their own research. They're aren't a major army. They aren't the only science division in the galaxy. Expecting them to be you're one and only savior is a gamble on the race track. If that horse you bet all your money on doesn't perform as you hoped, then you're screwed.

What other horse besides the CB do we have?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


That's not what I asked. If push comes to showe and ou get to choose between saving your family, and someone elseses..whihc will you choose?
99,9% of people will choose their own. That's normal.

By that logic, Cerberus would save their own skin first and let the other humans die.

Maybe they'll get some of their own killed in the process too.

Cerberus is humanity..remember:P


But that's survival instinct. You try to assure everyones survivial. If that's not possible, you try to survive your own nations/group survival. If that's not possible  you try to ensure the survival of those closest to you...

But beside the point.
Untill I see some concrete evidence that Cerberus want's to kill off aliens, my point stands.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Yes, he does actually end to work for them.


Shepard:"Human dominance, or just Cerberus?"

TIM:"They're one and the same. My mission has always been to promote and secure humanity's continued strength.
Don't let idealism blind you. Using the best way to its fullest potential it's the best way to fulfill ours".

IIIInteresting

Didn't Saren says he'd save more lives by giving up to the Reapers? In TIM's case, it's human lives if his mission has been to secure humanities survival.

And that's if he's really working for the Reapers.

[Someone With Mass]

They have no reason to save the aliens either.

[HogarthHughes 3]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I'd like to note that during Arrival Admiral Hackett makes a comment on whether or not he's sure if the Normandy is a Cerberus vessel anymore, but only if the Collector Base was destroyed.

...He questions whether it is a Cerberus ship only after the SM regardless of the decision.

My experience and the wiki (which may not be the most reliable source, but what else is there?) indicate otherwise.

*edit - This video proves me right.  ~5:12, the coversation option is there, and you can tell its after the Suicide Mission because Harbinger appears rather than the Collector General.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 07 août 2011 - 07:12 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They have no reason to save the aliens either.

You mean other than having allies to fight the reapers with? Cerberus alone can't do nuttin'.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 07 août 2011 - 07:11 .

[Sebby]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

I'd like to note that during Arrival Admiral Hackett makes a comment on whether or not he's sure if the Normandy is a Cerberus vessel anymore, but only if the Collector Base was destroyed.

...He questions whether it is a Cerberus ship only after the SM regardless of the decision.

I've done Arrival after keeping the Collector base and he doesn't question whether it's a Cerberus ship.

[Pulletlamer]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Whatever, mate. You can be stubborn if you want. That you want to believe you're working for Cerberus or agree with them and would like to join them or something like that (as a player) doesn't mean your Shepard wants to. Every Shepard (paragon or renegade) in the game is distrutful about Cerberus to some point (at least for now ).

Yes, he doesn't explictly say: "I don't work with you anymore", but he makes it pretty clear in my opinion, by leaving /cutting him and being harsh to him during the whole conversation. You can tell him to shut up the two variants, or tell him that he better be ready for the reapers (or that you're stopping them with or without his help) and cut him and leave.

If you're in bad relations with the leader of the organization I doubt very much you can still work with them as if nothing happened or be like "Hey sorry dude I just had a bad day after blowing/zaving the baze and whatnot, are we coolz again or not ?"

Neither I nor my renegade Shepard(s) agree with or trust Cerberus completely, but even so if the Collector Base is preserved Shepard doesn't close the door on Cerberus.  Why would he/she after trusting them with the Collector Base?  "I just turned over some potentially very powerful and dangerous technology to a ruthless group of jingoists with xenophobic tendencies, but I'm not willing to work with them!"  Huh?

I'd like to note that during Arrival Admiral Hackett makes a comment on whether or not he's sure if the Normandy is a Cerberus vessel anymore, but only if the Collector Base was destroyed.

Because the whole reason Shepard in teory gives the Base is because TIM promises to help with it against the Reapers.

After doing that, Shepard is like: "Okay I gave you the base, you have what you want. You better keep your promise, but  now I do things my way." Basically to sum it up. And you can tell him to shut up if you want to.

You know, pretty much like at the end of ME1. No matter you saved or killed the council, you get to do things on your own, although it doesn't mean cutting relations with the council in that case. In this case you have been pretty harsh to him and although yes, you could in theory still maintain some relations with them, or even get to collaborate again due the appropiate moment (the writers left an open door to that since they didn't know at that point), you're not working for them anymore. The Suicide Mission was a one time job. Shepard made it pretty clear since the beginning.

And no matter you're paragon or renegade to him, during the conversation you're harsh (Shepard's body movements tell that, too, as if he was threatening /accusing TIM) and there's even dialogue you say anyway regardless of your choices ([acusatory] Human domincance? Or just Cerberus?).

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 07 août 2011 - 07:21 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Because the whole reason Shepard in teory gives the Base is because TIM promises to help with it against the Reapers.

After doing that, he is like: "Okay I gave you the base, you have what you want. You better keep your promise, but  nowI do things my way." Basically to sum it up. And you can tell him to shut up if you want to.

You know, pretty much like at the end of ME1. No matter you saved or killed the council, you get to do things on your own, although it doesn't mean cutting relations with the council in that case. In this case you have been pretty harsh to himand althoug yes, you could still maintain some relations with them, or even get to collaborate again (the writers left an open door to that since they didn't know at that point), but you're not working for them anymore. The Suicide Mission was a one time job. Shepard made it pretty clear since the beginning.

Things like hunting down Geth stragglers at the Councils behest?  Shepard may want to go his own way or do his own thing, but that doesn't mean that Cerberus is no longer an ally.  Even if Shepard begins to not work quite so closely with Cerberus, that doesn't mean he must cut all ties.  Why would a Shepard that is willing to give Cerberus the Collector Base want to burn bridges?

Shepard can lecture and express distrust to TIM at the end, but he can do that throughout most of their conversations.  Yet he still works with Cerberus the entire game.

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 07 août 2011 - 07:33 .

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That depends.

Given the the CB is the best source of reaper knowledge available (with Sovy beign blown up and msot of it missing), and given Cerberses fanatical dedication and TIM's pushing...I'd say the CB and Cerberus have the biggest chances of producing something vital for the war (ar al least, the bigggest piece of the puzzle).

Not saying that no one else is doing anything, but the situation as it is, we need everything we can get.
And well..why WOULD we be screwed if we depended on Cerberus?

Because if something happens to them, that one organisation (like says, destroying themselves, or oddly joining the enemy, attacked by the Council, and lose too many resources to do research), then you're screwed. Because at the end of the day, they're just one group among many who could do their own research. They're aren't a major army. They aren't the only science division in the galaxy. Expecting them to be you're one and only savior is a gamble on the race track. If that horse you bet all your money on doesn't perform as you hoped, then you're screwed.

What other horse besides the CB do we have?

A united galaxy apparently. The Reapers never had to go up against that. And while probably low on fuel and energy after travelling at FTL in dark space for 3 years. Even better if those things actually needed some form of nutrients. Before they fought by taking over the Citadel, killing the leaders of their cultures, and locking every relay. Then slowly invade every star system, and destroy and harvest, one at a time. Making them easy prey for the Reaper fleets. Taking advantage of having all their records and data from the Citedal, and disrupting comminications, keeping everyone in the dark. And within a few centuries, eventually killed everyone.

There main weapon of strength has already been taken away of them. There surprise attack has been spoiled. And the galaxy has already prepped themselves for war, after the resent Geth attack. Arms races may have already started depending on if the Council being alive or dead. And Sovereign, a dead Reaper, is now getting his guts studied by everyone. Unite them, and you might have a chance.

And now that we fully understand how the Citedal works, it's possible we can instead locks the Reapers in systems, and slowly attack them. Applying the same strategy they applied on us.

However, I will say, this doesn't mean Cerberus couldn't have added to the chances if you gave them the Collector base. If Cerberus played nice with the other races, and don't **** up, then it would definitely increase your chances. More knowledge and understanding equals more power. If you don't learn how to master advanced technology, you risk it mastering you by those who use it. But the gamble is, will they follow through? Or cause more problems? If you believe the first, then that's your gamble. If you believe the last like I do, then that's mine.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 07 août 2011 - 07:48 .

[Pulletlamer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


That's not what I asked. If push comes to showe and ou get to choose between saving your family, and someone elseses..whihc will you choose?
99,9% of people will choose their own. That's normal.

By that logic, Cerberus would save their own skin first and let the other humans die.

Maybe they'll get some of their own killed in the process too.

Cerberus is humanity..remember:P


But that's survival instinct. You try to assure everyones survivial. If that's not possible, you try to survive your own nations/group survival. If that's not possible  you try to ensure the survival of those closest to you...

But beside the point.
Untill I see some concrete evidence that Cerberus want's to kill off aliens, my point stands.

Well you can say they want to secure humanity's strenght, but the fact is that they don't regret killing humans in a lot of their "experiments". Like for example luring Alliance troops to Thresher Maws and then experimenting with the survivors (Toombs), or Thorian Creepers..Oh, and they also don't care about the people of their own corporation, so yeah.. The only one TIM isn't willing to sacrifice in order to achive his goal (whatever it is) is...surprise...the very himself.

I believe all that Human dominance **** it's just a way for Cerberus to justify their actions and their goal of rising in power.

By giving power to them (like the Base) you're giving power to an organization with fame of terrorists, of whom we mostly don't know much about their real goals (he tells you it's humanity strength, but what if he's lying? We can't know for sure, we only know from TIM's words based on...nothing, just his own words), and that conducts morally evil (or debatable) experiments. A potential threat more than anything else, if I may say.

"Cerberus is humanity"and  "Strength for Cerberus is strength to the human race" are not true statements at all.
Cerberus is just a part of humanity.
The Alliance is another part of humanity, and, although neither are saints, Cerberus is worse than the Alliance in the aspect that they're willing to do "whatever it takes" to Strengthen Cerberus (or humanity). So that means they're not afraid of sacrificing hundreds or  thousands of lives in order to accomplish that goal. Thus killing humans =/= strengthen humanity.

For just a test, just replace all the lines TIM says about "Humanity" with the word Cerberus, and you'll see how the overall picture about Cerberus changes - and a lot. The suddenly humanity's rise in power changes to Cerberus dominance.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 07 août 2011 - 07:58 .

[HogarthHughes 3]

I'm not arguing that Shepard should or will continue wearing Cerberus logos galore on all his clothes and his ship. All I'm saying is that if Shepard agrees with TIM on the Collector Base, Cerberus is still an ally at the end of the game. Things will change of course, who knows why Cerberus has decided to fight with the Reapers, but as of the end of ME2 their "rocky" relationship still exists (unless of course Shepard destroys the Collector Base).

[Pulletlamer]

HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...

Because the whole reason Shepard in teory gives the Base is because TIM promises to help with it against the Reapers.

After doing that, he is like: "Okay I gave you the base, you have what you want. You better keep your promise, but  nowI do things my way." Basically to sum it up. And you can tell him to shut up if you want to.

You know, pretty much like at the end of ME1. No matter you saved or killed the council, you get to do things on your own, although it doesn't mean cutting relations with the council in that case. In this case you have been pretty harsh to himand althoug yes, you could still maintain some relations with them, or even get to collaborate again (the writers left an open door to that since they didn't know at that point), but you're not working for them anymore. The Suicide Mission was a one time job. Shepard made it pretty clear since the beginning.

Things like hunting down Geth stragglers at the Councils behest?  Shepard may want to go his own way or do his own thing, but that doesn't mean that Cerberus is no longer an ally.  Even if Shepard begins to not work quite so closely with Cerberus, that doesn't mean he must cut all ties.  Why would a Shepard that is willing to give Cerberus the Collector Base want to burn bridges?

Shepard can lecture and express distrust to TIM at the end, but he can do that throughout most of their conversations.  Yet he still works with Cerberus the entire game.

Not, of course it's not in the Councils behest. But you're officially doing an alliance patrol at that point in the game. Still it's irrelevant to what I'm trying to say:

I want to make clear that (at least in my opinon, or the way I see it)  you're not working with them anymore after ME2.

Wheter if you maintain some comunication or some sort of relation with TIM after ME2 we don't know, it could be or it could not. We don't really know.

Doesn't matter, the point is they're not working with you anymore, viceversa, nor are they financing you or anything. What we know is Shepard goes on his own from now onwards. As I said the SM is a one-time job. After that, each to it's own. That doesn't mean we cut ALL relation with Cerberus, yes, but to me it seems pretty clear Shepard works on his own after that.

They could still be potential allies (in a Reapers Invasion scenario) with a renegade shepard, but what I'm trying to say is that Shepard don't works with them anymore after ME2.

Yes but you're still working with them even if you're being a dick to TIM the whole time during the game, because you need their help for taking down the Collector Base. And yes, you can express distrust during the entire game, therefore another proof that Shepard don't trusts Cerberus (or TIM) completely, even if you're renegade.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 07 août 2011 - 07:53 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pulletlamer wrote...

Well you can say they want to secure humanity's strenght, but the fact is that they don't regret killing humans in a lot of their "experiments". Like for example luring Alliance troops to Thresher Maws and then experimenting with the survivors (Toombs), or Thorian Creepers..Oh, and they also don't care about the people of their own corporation, so yeah.. The only one TIM isn't willing to sacrifice in order to achive his goal (whatever it is) is...surprise...the very himself.

Neither does of government of any nations shy to do dirty buisness, even sacrifice some of their own sodleirs/people...yet they do in the interest of the nation (or so they say).

Just saying - Cerberus may have killed some humans along the way, but that doesn't mean that tehy're NOT working for the purpose of strengthening humanity.

I believe all that Human dominance **** it's just a way for Cerberus to justify their actions and their goal of rising in power.

By giving power to them (like the Base) you're giving power to an organization with fame of terrorists, of whom we mostly don't know much about their real goals (he tells you it's humanity strength, but what if he's lying? We can't know for sure, we only know from TIM's words based on...nothing, just his own words), and that conducts morally evil (or debatable) experiments. A potential threat more than anything else, if I may say.

Belive what you want. As long as you cna't prove it, that's all it remains.

And TIM lying? About the goal and purpose of Cerberus? That conspiracy talk now.
The goal has been repeated by everyone - everyone wokring for Cerberus you talk to, TIM simself, their manifesto - everything confirms what TIM's been saying all along. Not to mention their actions futher confirm it, as everything Cerberus did IS conductive to stregthening humanity.

I'd say the opposite.
I have every reason to belive the purpose of Cerberus is what TIM sez, and no reason to belive the opposite.
The circumstancial evidence goes in my favor here, by a landslide.

"Cerberus is humanity"and  "Strength for Cerberus is strength to the human race" are not true statements at all.
Cerberus is just a part of humanity.
The Alliance is another part of humanity, and, although neither are saints, Cerberus is worse than the Alliance in the aspect that they're willing to do "whatever it takes" to Strengthen Cerberus (or humanity). So that means they're not afraid of sacrificing hundreds or  thousands of lives in order to accomplish that goal. Thus killing humans =/= strengthen humanity.

For just a test, just replace all the lines TIM says about "Humanity" with the word Cerberus, and you'll see how the overall picture about Cerberus changes - and a lot. The suddenly humanity's rise in power changes to Cerberus dominance.

Not really. Cerberus is humantiy can be taken in several ways. Meanign Cerberus is their future.. He's there to safeguard the future of huaminty (which is also in the cerberus manifesto)
and again...the actions of Cerberus and TIM give credence to their agenda.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]TMA LIVE wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]TMA LIVE wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That depends.

Given the the CB is the best source of reaper knowledge available (with Sovy beign blown up and msot of it missing), and given Cerberses fanatical dedication and TIM's pushing...I'd say the CB and Cerberus have the biggest chances of producing something vital for the war (ar al least, the bigggest piece of the puzzle).

Not saying that no one else is doing anything, but the situation as it is, we need everything we can get.
And well..why WOULD we be screwed if we depended on Cerberus?
[/quote]

Because if something happens to them, that one organisation (like says, destroying themselves, or oddly joining the enemy, attacked by the Council, and lose too many resources to do research), then you're screwed. Because at the end of the day, they're just one group among many who could do their own research. They're aren't a major army. They aren't the only science division in the galaxy. Expecting them to be you're one and only savior is a gamble on the race track. If that horse you bet all your money on doesn't perform as you hoped, then you're screwed.
[/quote]

What other horse besides the CB do we have?

[/quote]

A united galaxy apparently. The Reapers never had to go up against that. And while probably low on fuel and energy after travelling at FTL in dark space for 3 years. Even better if those things actually needed some form of nutrients. Before they fought by taking over the Citadel, killing the leaders of their cultures, and locking every relay. Then slowly invade every star system, and destroy and harvest, one at a time. Making them easy prey for the Reaper fleets. Taking advantage of having all their records and data from the Citedal, and disrupting comminications, keeping everyone in the dark. And within a few centuries, eventually killed everyone.[/quote]

And a united galaxy stand little chance of winning agaisnt them.
The isolation the reapers case prior to attack helps them immensely, but even wihout it, they are more than match for anyone.
Not to mention that if reaper take control of the Citadel, they CAN lock al lteh relays again. And we can't really prevent them from doing that with our naval strength.




[quote]
And now that we fully understand how the Citedal works, it's possible we can instead locks the Reapers in systems, and slowly attack them. Applying the same strategy they applied on us.[/qutoe]

We know how to lock  the relays? Never seen that anywhere.


[quote]
However, I will say, this doesn't mean Cerberus couldn't have added to the chances if you gave them the Collector base. If Cerberus played nice with the other races, and don't **** up, then it would definitely increase your chances. More knowledge and understanding equals more power. If you don't learn how to master advanced technology, you risk it mastering you by those who use it. But the gamble is, will they follow through? Or cause more problems? If you believe the first, then that's your gamble. If you believe the last like I do, then that's mine.
[/quote]

The fact remians that we're ill prepared and we sorely need something against them.
The need for an edge outweigh potentia lproblems.

Think of it this way - you're along in the woods, unarmed, attacked by a bear. You see a shotgn lying on the floor. you pick it up, but you don't know it's condition - you don't have time to check. Worst case scenario, it's jammed and if you fire it will blow your arm off.
Do you use it?
you might be afraid of getting your arm blow on, but I'd be more worried about the bear.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The isolation the reapers case prior to attack helps them immensely, but even wihout it, they are more than match for anyone.
Not to mention that if reaper take control of the Citadel, they CAN lock al lteh relays again. And we can't really prevent them from doing that with our naval strength.

Do you have proof of the Reapers winning without using the Citedal? Do you have proof that they won against a united galaxy, and not one that was seperated, and locked up?

And they'd have to take the Citadel to do that. And to get there, they'd have to travel between systems and relays. Risking being known, and getting locked out. Which is why they travelled to the Alpha Relay to begin with. It was the fastest way to the Citadel. Thank god that one got blown up.

We know how to lock  the relays? Never seen that anywhere.

Yep, we sure do. After all, Shepard unlocked the relays using the Citedal controls that kept the Alliance Fleet locked out. And Saren did the original locking. And now experts have had 2 years to study it.

The fact remians that we're ill prepared and we sorely need something against them.
The need for an edge outweigh potentia lproblems.

Think of it this way - you're along in the woods, unarmed, attacked by a bear. You see a shotgn lying on the floor. you pick it up, but you don't know it's condition - you don't have time to check. Worst case scenario, it's jammed and if you fire it will blow your arm off.
Do you use it?
you might be afraid of getting your arm blow on, but I'd be more worried about the bear.

Unlike the shotgun, it doesn't have a history of blowing up in people's faces, and causing harm to the user. Cerberus does. If I knew that shotgun had a very bad history, I'd probably wouldn't take it.

Again, don't get me wrong. When I made that choice, I originally thought I'd be dooming more lives in the short term, by not getting a headstart advantage. But long term, I consider Cerberus a threat I should start making less powerful if I can help it. And at the end of the day, I don't think we need it.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 07 août 2011 - 08:52 .

[Someone With Mass]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Yep, we sure do. After all, Shepard unlocked the relays using the Citedal controls that kept the Alliance Fleet locked out. And Saren did the original locking. And now experts have had 2 years to study it.

I don't think that'll be of use if the Reapers gets their hands on the system, since they can just reprogram the whole thing or just lock it down completely. 

[TMA LIVE]

Someone With Mass wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Yep, we sure do. After all, Shepard unlocked the relays using the Citedal controls that kept the Alliance Fleet locked out. And Saren did the original locking. And now experts have had 2 years to study it.

I don't think that'll be of use if the Reapers gets their hands on the system, since they can just reprogram the whole thing or just lock it down completely. 

Again, they'd have to get to it first. Which is why they went for Alpha. And why they're attacking our Local system and Earth. It's the next closest relay that would get them to the Citedal that they'd have to travel to at FTL speed. And judging by Casey's tweets, we still explore the Citedal. Which pretty much means they've been locked out, and have to continue travelling through systems at FTL speed.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 07 août 2011 - 09:09 .

[Someone With Mass]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Again, they'd have to get to it first. Which is why they went for Alpha. And why they're attacking our Local system and Earth. It's the next closest relay that would get them to the Citedal that they'd have to travel to at FTL speed. And judging by Casey's tweets, we still explore the Citedal. Which pretty much means they've been locked out, and have to continue travelling through systems at FTL speed.

Or it could mean that they simply haven't arrived yet.

[Pulletlamer]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Neither does of government of any nations shy to do dirty buisness, even sacrifice some of their own sodleirs/people...yet they do in the interest of the nation (or so they say).

Just saying - Cerberus may have killed some humans along the way, but that doesn't mean that tehy're NOT working for the purpose of strengthening humanity.

Governements aren't any better, I agree. In fact I believe neither the Alliance or the Council are any better than Cerberus. They sure have their dirty secrets.

Well yes, technically they could still sacrifice humans to achieve their goals but still I don't think doing that is a good way of getting people to join the cause.

Belive what you want. As long as you cna't prove it, that's all it remains.

And TIM lying? About the goal and purpose of Cerberus? That conspiracy talk now.
The goal has been repeated by everyone - everyone wokring for Cerberus you talk to, TIM simself, their manifesto - everything confirms what TIM's been saying all along. Not to mention their actions futher confirm it, as everything Cerberus did IS conductive to stregthening humanity.


I'd say the opposite.
I have every reason to belive the purpose of Cerberus is what TIM sez, and no reason to belive the opposite.
The circumstancial evidence goes in my favor here, by a landslide.

I can't prove that. But you can't prove that I'm wrong (or the oppostie at all). Stalemate. Therefore my beliefs have the same chance of your beliefs being actually true.

Why couldn't he lie? Tell me just one reason about it. He could perfectly lie and we wouldn't know.

You're basing yourself on what he says. People can lie. That doesn't mean they necessarily have to be lying but still, they could be. My point is you can't trust TIM just because he says so (that you have to trust him).

Conspiracy talk? Maybe. What I know is I don't know anything (or very little) about Cerberus but bad things, and all you can base yourself for believing that is actually TIM is telling the thruth are his words. Nothing else. Because their actions don't say anything about their goals if you look at them alone. Taking people to make experiments and sabotaging ships etc don't give any information about Cerberus motivations. They only give distrust and add to the bad side of the balance.

What are those reasons. What is "eveything that confirms Cerberus has been doing is what TIM has been saying"? I don't know them. You say you have every reason to believe TIM, but I have yet to see them. Those reasons are probably based on the assumption that TIM is telling the thruth. He could perfectly be, of course. But I wouldn't believe all that someone tells me at first glance. If you do so I'd say you're an easy person to manipulate.

There's plenty of reasons to believe the opposite. Cerberus actions only adds to their bad reputation.

Not really. Cerberus is humantiy can be taken in several ways. Meanign Cerberus is their future.. He's there to safeguard the future of huaminty (which is also in the cerberus manifesto)
and again...the actions of Cerberus and TIM give credence to their agenda.

Fair enough.

I don't think Cerberus actions give any credence to their agenda. If anything, combined with their supposed goals (the ones TIM tells you they have) they're acceptable or the necessary thing to do, but that's all. The actions alone aren't justificable. I mean, if they did experiments because they wanted, they wouldn't be justificable morally.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 07 août 2011 - 09:30 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The isolation the reapers case prior to attack helps them immensely, but even wihout it, they are more than match for anyone.
Not to mention that if reaper take control of the Citadel, they CAN lock al lteh relays again. And we can't really prevent them from doing that with our naval strength.

Do you have proof of the Reapers winning without using the Citedal? Do you have proof that they won against a united galaxy, and not one that was seperated, and locked up?

And they'd have to take the Citadel to do that. And to get there, they'd have to travel between systems and relays. Risking being known, and getting locked out. Which is why they travelled to the Alpha Relay to begin with. It was the fastest way to the Citadel. Thank god that one got blown up.

Reapers are powerhouses...2 fleets to take one down. I alredy explained why in the other thread.
They hold so many advantages over us it's not even funny.

and yes, they can take the Citadel. You can't lock them out - they can (or at least should) take control of a Mass Relay directly (like Sovereign connected directly to the Citadel)
Even if you could lock them out - they are faster, more manouverable, have immensly better operational range and far better shieldign and weaponry.

They could just make a bee-line for the Citadel, and you coudln't really stop them.

We know how to lock  the relays? Never seen that anywhere.

Yep, we sure do. After all, Shepard unlocked the relays using the Citedal controls that kept the Alliance Fleet locked out. And Saren did the original locking. And now experts have had 2 years to study it.

Good catch. How the hell did I miss that

The fact remians that we're ill prepared and we sorely need something against them.
The need for an edge outweigh potentia lproblems.

Think of it this way - you're along in the woods, unarmed, attacked by a bear. You see a shotgn lying on the floor. you pick it up, but you don't know it's condition - you don't have time to check. Worst case scenario, it's jammed and if you fire it will blow your arm off.
Do you use it?
you might be afraid of getting your arm blow on, but I'd be more worried about the bear.

Unlike the shotgun, it doesn't have a history of blowing up in people's faces, and causing harm to the user. Cerberus does. If I knew that shotgun had a very bad history, I'd probably wouldn't take it.

Again, don't get me wrong. When I made that choice, I originally thought I'd be dooming more lives in the short term, by not getting a headstart advantage. But long term, I consider Cerberus a threat I should start making less powerful if I can help it. And at the end of the day, I don't think we need it.

Except it doesn't have that bad a history and expect that without the shotgun, the bear will maul you.

[TMA LIVE]

Someone With Mass wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Again, they'd have to get to it first. Which is why they went for Alpha. And why they're attacking our Local system and Earth. It's the next closest relay that would get them to the Citedal that they'd have to travel to at FTL speed. And judging by Casey's tweets, we still explore the Citedal. Which pretty much means they've been locked out, and have to continue travelling through systems at FTL speed.

Or it could mean that they simply haven't arrived yet.

No, they've arrived. They're at the edge of our galaxy in Arrival and at the end of ME2. And now have been traveling from the south in batarian space towards the Local Cluster. Jesse said so in the Live Stream Demo.

http://www.livestrea...b85c03e9b&utm_s

23.00

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 07 août 2011 - 10:38 .

[Bad King]

May as well keep it. Destroying it is a waste IMO.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Reapers are powerhouses...2 fleets to take one down. I alredy explained why in the other thread.
They hold so many advantages over us it's not even funny.

and yes, they can take the Citadel. You can't lock them out - they can (or at least should) take control of a Mass Relay directly (like Sovereign connected directly to the Citadel)
Even if you could lock them out - they are faster, more manouverable, have immensly better operational range and far better shieldign and weaponry.

They could just make a bee-line for the Citadel, and you coudln't really stop them.

Again, do you have proof that a united galaxy can't defeat the Reapers? And proof that you can link me? Or is this what you think? Because it was one Reaper and a "Geth Fleet" doing a "surprise attack", with Council's pants down. And Sovereign hiding inside the Citedal protection until it was unlocked. Then got taken out "after" the Allianced showed up. And that was before we advanced ourselves with some new tech from Sovereign.

And Hackett talks about if the "Alliance" is ready for the Reapers. He says they aren't ready. And that the galaxy needs to work together.

And no they can't take control of the Citedal directly, unless they take the Citedal first. And they'd have to get there through FTL if they can't using a relay. They instead needed Saren to do it. And to do it using the Conduit. Before they could with the Keepers. But the Protheans prevented that. Sovereign had to literally get into the shell of the Citedal in order to control it, and with the help of an insider as well.

Except it doesn't have that bad a history and expect that without the shotgun, the bear will maul you.

You doubt my abilities to get away from a bear, and needing a shotgun. I don't.

And yes, Cerberus does have a bad history.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 07 août 2011 - 10:04 .