3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Meh...Cerberus can do little besides study the tech.

They can't really support or mantain a fleet. It's the Alliance that would be doing the building after Cerberus feeds them the plans.

Remember, Cerberus is there to promote and defend humanities interests.

[TMA LIVE]

Unless they use indoctrination. Which is what they're studying in the third book. And it seems what they use on their own troops in ME3.

Before ME3 came out, you could simply consider them taking over the Alliance after the Reapers are defeated, using the advanced technology they have. Then dominate the other races.

And remember, Cerberus only tells you they promote and defend human interests. It's called, propaganda.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 08 août 2011 - 12:42 .

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Apparently you don't since you consider the opposite to be "equal".

Neither decision is right or wrong until shown to be so.

That thing called ME3 will be the judge,not us.

Which is beside the point completely. That's NOT how you determine which of the 2 options is more sensible. Again, that's metagaming and that's actualyl compeltely differentt gauge.

You are weighing the decisions based on actual results in the future (which you cannot know).

That is not the same with finding the best option at the moment of decision making.


The best and the most sensible option may not end up to be the "rght" one.

Considering many people guess correctly that Cerberus would be bad before ME3 even started getting revealed, and that the base shouldn't be given to them, I'd say their logic on what they predicted were right.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 08 août 2011 - 12:42 .

[TMA LIVE]

Sisterofshane wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I can see this:

1) by some stroke of luck we defeat the Reapers. Cerberus provides some amazing tech from the CB that tips the balance.
2) later, Cerberus builds a Reaper at the Collector base, probably out of Batarian prisoners of war, or from dead humans on the earth acquired during the cleanup (flash frozen so they don't deteriorate too much more).
3) the cycle starts again.

All this has happened before and will happen again.

We need to learn how the Reapers got built in the first place, and why. AI gone wild?

Woot! Page 72. Onward toward 80!

Why the hell would Cerberus ever what to build a reaper...EVER?

If you know how to build one, then you know how to build a starship of equal size and power, WITHOUT the goo bits and AI.

Probably for the same reason why the Reapers were created ingeneral. They are warships with advanced AI afterall.

And who's the say they can't find a way to make a non-goo version? EDI is based off them. Same with Sov's gun. No fleshy stuff involved as far as I'm aware. Still, Cerberus Reapers. Human Dominance. Sounds bad.

I dunno.  Yes, reaper technology is infinitely more advanced, but the level of destruction would be limited by the need of an organic (and according to the Reapers, ultimately flawed) crew.  There COULD be a non-goo version, but I don't think it would ever be quite as powerful as an actual "Reaper".  Cerberus might decide that they prefer the "goo" versions' power after all.

Still, I'm with you.  Giving aforementioned powerful tech to a human-centric (and often xenophobic) organization has a VERY HIGH potential to be bad.

True. If Cerberus wanted to actually build a "real" Reaper, then he'd have to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people. He'd have to start a cloning service in order to do that without really getting attention. And considering Krogan can be tank bread, and Miranda and her sister were "created", it's possible he could use clones. Though I imagine it would be hugely expensive and time consuming.

However, now that we know they're working with the Reapers, I guess they're just the new Collectors.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Seboist wrote...
Apparently you don't since you consider the opposite to be "equal".

Neither decision is right or wrong until shown to be so.

That thing called ME3 will be the judge,not us.

Which is beside the point completely. That's NOT how you determine which of the 2 options is more sensible. Again, that's metagaming and that's actualyl compeltely differentt gauge.

You are weighing the decisions based on actual results in the future (which you cannot know).

That is not the same with finding the best option at the moment of decision making.


The best and the most sensible option may not end up to be the "rght" one.

Considering many people guess correctly that Cerberus would be bad before ME3 even started getting revealed, and that the base shouldn't be given to them, I'd say their logic on what they predicted were right.

Which is a baseless assertion

For one, we stil ldon't know how it will all turn in the end (the base may yet ends up playing a big role).

For another, just becuse someone guesses something, doesn't mean that their prediction was sensible or based on anything solid.


For example, I could guess that the alines in Crysis will be all hushed up in Crysis 2. I got nothing to base this upon, and it's exceptionaly unliekly for such a coverup to ever work (Think Transformers 2). It's a silly theory, but it turns out it's correct.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Unless they use indoctrination. Which is what they're studying in the third book. And it seems what they use on their own troops in ME3.

Before ME3 came out, you could simply consider them taking over the Alliance after the Reapers are defeated, using the advanced technology they have. Then dominate the other races.

And remember, Cerberus only tells you they promote and defend human interests. It's called, propaganda.

Indoctrination would really work. Soeverign had it and it didn't help him in the end. Indoctriation has a limted range and speed, and it wouldn't take long for people to notice something fishy is going on.

And what Cerberus tells me and what Ceerberus does fit together. Their history is full of moves designed to do exactly that  - strengthen humanity.

[TMA LIVE]

You have a lot to make you consider if Cerberus will be a threat. Even Shepard can realize this, and threaten TIM if he tries anything, despite giving him the base.

If the Cerberus is in fact working for the Reapers, it literally means you gave your advantages back to the enemy you stole it from. With them using the base against you, instead of doing something to research advantages.

Even if you stole it back from them, Cerberus is a main enemy for 40% of the game. Chances are, you take the base back near the end of the game. And the only thing you could get at that point is knowledge.

And unless that knowledge is "shoot here to kill Reapers" or "use this virus to kill Reapers" or "hit this mother ship to kill them all" or "hit this botton to control all Husks", that knowledge isn't going to be worth much. Because anything else needs to be manufactured. And I don't think we got the time or resources to do that at the end of the game, when the Reapers have pretty much done all the damage they could.

And some of that knowledge could probably already be gained by studying dead Reapers by that point.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Unless they use indoctrination. Which is what they're studying in the third book. And it seems what they use on their own troops in ME3.

Before ME3 came out, you could simply consider them taking over the Alliance after the Reapers are defeated, using the advanced technology they have. Then dominate the other races.

And remember, Cerberus only tells you they promote and defend human interests. It's called, propaganda.

Indoctrination would really work. Soeverign had it and it didn't help him in the end. Indoctriation has a limted range and speed, and it wouldn't take long for people to notice something fishy is going on.

And what Cerberus tells me and what Ceerberus does fit together. Their history is full of moves designed to do exactly that  - strengthen humanity.

Sovereign was a war ship. Not a bunch of secret agents who have already infiltrated the Alliance, and can place indoctrination devices everywhere to minipulate the chain of command.

And strengthen humanity to dominate the other races.

[TMA LIVE]

I also never liked people assuming, before ME3, that if Cerberus simply goes bad, they'll just take the base back from them. It's like saying they don't consider Cerberus going bad at the end of the game, when you no longer control Shepard. Or believe they can easily destroy Cerberus, despite with advanced technology, with the Normandy, just like they did with the Collectors and their one ship. Because if their tech was seriously advanced to take out Reapers, then Shepard little ship against a Cerberus Fleet wouldn't stand a chance. And if Shepard could take out Cerberus' entire fleet and base, despite their tech, with his little ship, then I can't imagine that tech being seriously advanced enough for Reapers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

You have a lot to make you consider if Cerberus will be a threat. Even Shepard can realize this, and threaten TIM if he tries anything, despite giving him the base.

If the Cerberus is in fact working for the Reapers, it literally means you gave your advantages back to the enemy you stole it from. With them using the base against you, instead of doing something to research advantages.

In which case the enemy gained nothing (as they already have that knowledge) and I lost nothing (as the other alternative is to blow up the base, meaning you loose that knowledge anyway)

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Unless they use indoctrination. Which is what they're studying in the third book. And it seems what they use on their own troops in ME3.

Before ME3 came out, you could simply consider them taking over the Alliance after the Reapers are defeated, using the advanced technology they have. Then dominate the other races.

And remember, Cerberus only tells you they promote and defend human interests. It's called, propaganda.

Indoctrination would really work. Soeverign had it and it didn't help him in the end. Indoctriation has a limted range and speed, and it wouldn't take long for people to notice something fishy is going on.

And what Cerberus tells me and what Ceerberus does fit together. Their history is full of moves designed to do exactly that  - strengthen humanity.

Sovereign was a war ship. Not a bunch of secret agents who have already infiltrated the Alliance, and can place indoctrination devices everywhere to minipulate the chain of command.

And strengthen humanity to dominate the other races.

Sovereign was indoctrinating people to serve him. If it was so easy to indoctrinate, why didn't Sovereign use his indoctrinated servants to place indoctrination devices eveywhere?
Heck, Saren would be the perfect candidate for it - being a top Specter means he can go everywhere and even get close to the Council. And Matriach Benezia too!

It's pretty obvious there are some limits to indoctrination that prevent it from being used so simply.
The device may be too large to smuggle or hide, or something else.

Either way, any way you can come up with that Cerberus can use the reaper tech, Sovereign could have also used it. but didn't.

[Kaiser Shepard]

TMA LIVE wrote...

True. If Cerberus wanted to actually build a "real" Reaper, then he'd have to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of people. He'd have to start a cloning service in order to do that without really getting attention. And considering Krogan can be tank bread, and Miranda and her sister were "created", it's possible he could use clones. Though I imagine it would be hugely expensive and time consuming.

Nah, if it would be that easy, the Reapers would simply keep using their own species to build new Reapers. It has more to do with generic diversity and the ascension to godliness/giant space ark-iness than simple procreation.

That being said, I do believe that Sovereign's (not Saren's) attempts to breed and army of krogan played into his plans to have one viable species ready for ascension.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I also never liked people assuming, before ME3, that if Cerberus simply goes bad, they'll just take the base back from them. It's like saying they don't consider Cerberus going bad at the end of the game, when you no longer control Shepard. Or believe they can easily destroy Cerberus, despite with advanced technology, with the Normandy, just like they did with the Collectors and their one ship. Because if their tech was seriously advanced to take out Reapers, then Shepard little ship against a Cerberus Fleet wouldn't stand a chance. And if Shepard could take out Cerberus' entire fleet and base, despite their tech, with his little ship, then I can't imagine that tech being seriously advanced enough for Reapers.

Easily destroy Cerberus? Yes.
They are just a small group after all, and with the info EDI and Miranda have on them, and hte entire galaxy with you..they don't stand a chance.

If you're asking "what if they turn on you near the end of the war?" then by that point they should have already contributed something tech-wise or intel-wise. They would have to do so, because not only does it make sense to do so given the threat of hte reapers (any info should be given to teh SA as soon as it becomesavailable), but everyone would turn agaisnt them if they don't.

And let's not forget - Cerberus doesn't have a naval fleet. The Normandy is the best Cerbers had.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

You have a lot to make you consider if Cerberus will be a threat. Even Shepard can realize this, and threaten TIM if he tries anything, despite giving him the base.

If the Cerberus is in fact working for the Reapers, it literally means you gave your advantages back to the enemy you stole it from. With them using the base against you, instead of doing something to research advantages.

In which case the enemy gained nothing (as they already have that knowledge) and I lost nothing (as the other alternative is to blow up the base, meaning you loose that knowledge anyway)

You didn't gain anything. Except what you already would have gotten if you destroyed the base.

While the enemy could have lost a Collector base if you blew it up.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I also never liked people assuming, before ME3, that if Cerberus simply goes bad, they'll just take the base back from them. It's like saying they don't consider Cerberus going bad at the end of the game, when you no longer control Shepard. Or believe they can easily destroy Cerberus, despite with advanced technology, with the Normandy, just like they did with the Collectors and their one ship. Because if their tech was seriously advanced to take out Reapers, then Shepard little ship against a Cerberus Fleet wouldn't stand a chance. And if Shepard could take out Cerberus' entire fleet and base, despite their tech, with his little ship, then I can't imagine that tech being seriously advanced enough for Reapers.

Easily destroy Cerberus? Yes.
They are just a small group after all, and with the info EDI and Miranda have on them, and hte entire galaxy with you..they don't stand a chance.

If you're asking "what if they turn on you near the end of the war?" then by that point they should have already contributed something tech-wise or intel-wise. They would have to do so, because not only does it make sense to do so given the threat of hte reapers (any info should be given to teh SA as soon as it becomesavailable), but everyone would turn agaisnt them if they don't.

And let's not forget - Cerberus doesn't have a naval fleet. The Normandy is the best Cerbers had.

All you're telling me is that if I can destroy Cerberus despite the advantages I gave them, which should the same power to defeat the Reapers, then I never really needed them or the base to begin with.

And those same advantages where something one Collector Ship had. Which oddly enough, as Hackett says, is taking out every ship they send after it. Forcing him to hope you'll do something about it with your advanced and expensive stealth ship, since it's more advanced then anything they have.

And TIM can't use the base to secure Human Dominance if he's giving his stuff to everyone in the galaxy. You can't be dominate if everyone's on the same page as you are. You'd instead have to keep **** for yourself that'll give you the winning edge over everyone else.

And he sure isn't going to give you any more power. Especially since you're going on trial after Arrival. Which can be played before the Suicide Mission.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 08 août 2011 - 02:42 .

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Unless they use indoctrination. Which is what they're studying in the third book. And it seems what they use on their own troops in ME3.

Before ME3 came out, you could simply consider them taking over the Alliance after the Reapers are defeated, using the advanced technology they have. Then dominate the other races.

And remember, Cerberus only tells you they promote and defend human interests. It's called, propaganda.

Indoctrination would really work. Soeverign had it and it didn't help him in the end. Indoctriation has a limted range and speed, and it wouldn't take long for people to notice something fishy is going on.

And what Cerberus tells me and what Ceerberus does fit together. Their history is full of moves designed to do exactly that  - strengthen humanity.

Sovereign was a war ship. Not a bunch of secret agents who have already infiltrated the Alliance, and can place indoctrination devices everywhere to minipulate the chain of command.

And strengthen humanity to dominate the other races.

Sovereign was indoctrinating people to serve him. If it was so easy to indoctrinate, why didn't Sovereign use his indoctrinated servants to place indoctrination devices eveywhere?
Heck, Saren would be the perfect candidate for it - being a top Specter means he can go everywhere and even get close to the Council. And Matriach Benezia too!

It's pretty obvious there are some limits to indoctrination that prevent it from being used so simply.
The device may be too large to smuggle or hide, or something else.

Either way, any way you can come up with that Cerberus can use the reaper tech, Sovereign could have also used it. but didn't.

Because the only servent he had that could do it was Saren. And he still has his mind so he can do his job better. He spent most of his time trying not to be indoctrinated, and learning if it was possible not to.

Hell, who's to say the same isn't being done on the Council. You ever wonder why they don't listen to you? It's possible it's already being done on them, yet they still have their minds, and continue running the Citedal, believing Reapers don't exist.

But if that isn't the case, if Saren did try it, he'd probably get caught. He's one man after all. He can't completely control security, or allowed to be within the same room the Council do their meetings without being monitored. While Cerberus has lots of people working for him in the Alliance, and people of command and security. He literally can get away with planting devices within the Alliance.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 08 août 2011 - 02:55 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But all of this is irrelevant anyway.
Wild speculations are not something one shuld use as a base for critical decisions of galactic importance.

Ah,classic lotion.

[TMA LIVE]

As Hackett says, even one Collector Ship is too much for the Alliance (but the Normandy is a match for it??? I guess it really is the most advanced ship compared to anything in the Alliance fleet).

[alperez]

[quote]Arijharn wrote...


I have... twice, and I still disagree with your argument in this case, and mainly because he said:

[quote]Lotion wrote...
I don't dismiss the other 3 posibilities, but they are realisticly so low and insignificant, and the situation so dire, that even if hte risks were 100 times higher, it would STILL be worth taking them.
[/quote]

Stating an opinion as fact is eactly the point i was making, in everything you've underlined here, Lotion is stating an opinion but is phrasing it as a fact, which it isn't. That's why i said re-read my post, my entire post and not just the bit i cut out to answer specifically to raise a point, when you read the entire post i made you can see why i pointed this part out.

[quote]
Sounds to me like you're the one 'dismissing' the own crux of your argument in regards to what lotion wrote, because note specifically the parts that I bolded and underlined. He made a weighted decision, it just so happens that he chose against yours but that doesn't mean he dismissed the other situations necessarily out of hand.
[/quote]

Your misunderstanding what i was saying, i have no problem with Lotion's choice or the fact that he weighed things up and came to the conclussions he did, i do however have a problem with stating what is a conclussion based on basic assumptions being stated as factual when it clearly isn't.

I give reasons why keeping the base is a bad idea imo, Lotion in response gives his reasons for destroying it as being the only logical conclussion ANYONE could make, not Lotion could make.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


I'm not the one who brought in motivation in this. It was you folks.
You were insisting on TIM's unletriror motives for everything....

 In this particular discussion though it was you.

A possible reason, and somewhat different than what you claimed. You claimed the reason was to fool Sheppard. I said it's possible he just doesn't want unnecessary tensions.
And it still remains just a possible reasons...so again...moot point.

Slightly different although it still shows that your original claim of people just being there for how good they were at their job may not have been the entire reasoning behind it, also considering the original claim that this was the reason is in itself just a possible explanation, its not a moot point.

I disagree. You said TIM said to Kai Lang that's he's just the man he wants. Yet you aslo said TIM lies.
I find it strange that you ignore the possiblity that TIM is telling Kai Lang what he wants to hear.
In fact, if anything this proves that TIM reasoning is not always how YOU portray it to be.

But all of this is irrelevant anyway.
Wild speculations are not something one shuld use as a base for critical decisions of galactic importance.

I'm sorry i said what now?

I siad TIM recruited Kai Leng because of his hatred of aliens and that Kai is his goto guy for assassinations, i said nothing at al about a conversation TIM had with Kai Leng, so where you got that from is beyond me.

Wild speculations are all we have to go on, everything we're doing is wild speculations at this point.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



There is a huge difference and I *can* suggest.

You're not making any sense at all. None.
Blowing the base up is simple (and that plan was also constructed AFTER the relay jump) in comparison to capturing it.

If you notice the cutscence, TIM is not happy with sending you in blind, andd he doesn't give you any specific instructions yet on anything.

http://www.youtube.c... 2 omega 4&aq=f

Again your tied down to a specific instructions line which is nothing i've ever suggested, blowing up the base is a general plan, so keeping the base could also be a general plan, considering TIM witholds info when it suits him, he could have witheld that this keeping the base was his actual prefered plan all along.

The specifics come in later, your argument was that such a general plan could not have existed because the data wasn't available, my counter is this is also true with blowing up the base and yet that general plan does exist because its the one we're working on.

If it can be true for one (blowing the base) that a general plan was in place and the specifics of that plan were only put in place at a later stage, then it could also be true that (keeping the base) was a general plan that TIM had and the specifics of that plan would only be put in at a later stage.

Considering TIM keeps his cards close to himself, if this plan existed then it also holds true that he may not tell anyone until he wants, thats all i've said, you brought up the lack of data or  specifics as a reason as to why this couldn't be the case.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But all of this is irrelevant anyway.
Wild speculations are not something one shuld use as a base for critical decisions of galactic importance.

Ah,classic lotion.

I suppose you could say we have a fly in the lotion?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 08 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But all of this is irrelevant anyway.
Wild speculations are not something one shuld use as a base for critical decisions of galactic importance.

Ah,classic lotion.

I suppose you could say we have...*sunglassses*... a fly in the lotion?

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAHH!!!


Fixed.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 08 août 2011 - 04:21 .

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


So you're saying that taking reaper tech from Cerberus ISN'T easier than taking it from the repaers?
You're saiyng that that isn't a fact?

You're saying that the few hundered cerberus troopers with no navy are a great threat to the galaxy with millions of soldiers and heavy support?
 

No i never said that, what i said was that the 2 arguments you put forth are based on an assumption that cerberus are no real threat and that even if they were it's one that could be handled easily.

Taking the reaper tech from cerberus would off course be easier than taking it from the reapers if that was the simplicity of what you had to do, however taking the tech from cerberus while fighting the reapers would make that much more difficult.

Cerberus's forces on their own may not be a great threat if they attacked right now, however that's not the probelm and not why they could be a big threat, its during or in the aftermath of the reapers that the real level of threat they could possess comes to the fore.

If your fighting on 2 fronts your inherently weaker than if your fighting on one, if your fighting a new enemy right after you've almost been decimated by an enemy then your inherently weaker than when your fighting the first enemy.

Even if all Cerberus had was a few hundred troopers as you suggest then those few hundred troopers could do signifcant damage to your forces, during or after the reaper attack. Special force's units do significant damage to an enemy which is why they are used for specific missions where they can cause the most damage.

Cerberus attacking key points in your forces while your trying to fight the reapers could cause signifcant damage to your attempts at stopping the reapers, Cerberus attacking while your recovering from the fight with the reapers could cause significant damage to your forces and perhaps in that scenario due to a tech advantage and weaker defences could prove to be as big a threat as i've made out.

Metagaming tells us that 40% of the enemies we will be facing in me3 are cerberus, which means they do possess a threat that up to this point we coudn't put a figure on, now if we're facing that 40% on its own, we have no real problem, if however we're facing it added with the reapers or just after that percentage becomes an ever bigger threat.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
.

I'm not blind to any posibility - I just double-checked those counter-assumptions and the arguments presented and found them wrong.

There's no other way to put it man. I'm wondering if you ever bothered to think it trough....

I have no problem with this at all, for the first time you've stated an opinion not fact based or logic based argument to justify your choice.

I've never disagreed with your choice or why you made that choice based on the reasoning you've used, what i have disagreed with constantly though is your suggestion that your choice is the only one that's valid.

When in reality it was the only one valid for you to make, not for someone else.

Modifié par alperez, 08 août 2011 - 04:28 .