3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

SandTrout wrote...

If rats could follow orders and carry a rifle, we would see fewer human casualties in war.

If they could build houses, then construction costs would decrease.

You're learning fast my disciple. Good work.

[Massadonious1]

Well, if we're talking about disposable troops/manual labor, then I'd just use mechs.

You don't have to feed them, or smell them.

[Sisterofshane]

Holy crap, I'm away for a few hours and now we are debating the merits of the vorcha?

i think we've strayed a tiny bit off topic now, haven't we?

(BTW, if we were to adopt the vorcha, I only agree to it if we don't subjugate them.  Teaching them not to beat the crap out of each other in normal conversations is alright by me, but I don't necessarily need a vorcha opening my door or answering my comm-link like a certain useless yeoman aboard the SR-2)

[SandTrout]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Well, if we're talking about disposable troops/manual labor, then I'd just use mechs.

You don't have to feed them, or smell them.

You do need to feed mechs replacement parts, battery recharges, and other associated maintenance. Mechs are also of limited use outside of a factory setting because they are not capable of adaptive behavior in the same way as vorcha.

Vorcha search and rescue could save thousands of lives in the aftermath of the Reapers. In turn, thousands of Vorcha are saved from a fate as slaves or cannon fodder. Everyone wins.

As for Vorcha servants, why not, if you can afford to hire them? Just because they are a client species of the soon to be Galactic Empire doesn't mean that they will be slaves. They will be valuable members of the Empire that has a need for their unique traits.

Now, giving them voting rights might be a bit much, though. They honestly don't have life-spans that justify that particular benefit. At best they'd see a couple cycles of potential voting, and they would not live long enough to see the benefits.

[Sebby]

There's a CDN story about research showing it possible to extend the lives of Vorcha but the problem was that it was being funded by a scumbag Krogan blood pack leader who wanted to manipulate them into joining his personal army.

http://masseffect.wi...#10.2F05.2F2010

10/02/2010 - Vorcha Life Expectancy Paper Condemned by Scientific Community

“The average vorcha has a life expectancy of only twenty years -- can
that be extended? If so, should it? These questions are being asked
after a paper published by Dr. Minador Lux claimed experimental gene
therapy might be able to double the vorcha lifespan. At a press
conference, Lux stated that "the unique biology of the vorcha already
holds the key to slowing down their aging process. We must simply adapt
their ability to undergo radical cellular changes when adjusting to new
environments." The report was widely condemned by the scientific
community, including the University of Sehgan's biology professor Himar
Patathor: "Lux's paper combines gross irresponsibility with wishful
thinking. The doctor is talking about waltzing in and tinkering with
basic physiology as if he were beading genes on a string! This could
only begin to be excusable if he solicited the opinion of a single
vorcha about his work -- which he has not."”

10/05/2010 - Blood Pack Funding Supported Vorcha Life Expectancy Research

“Further controversy is brewing over a proposed life-extension
treatment for vorcha after revelations that research funding was
provided by Blood Pack commander Quash Hurgott. Some fear that Dr.
Minador Lux's age-lengthening research may strengthen the already
powerful krogan and vorcha mercenary band. Others believe it's a lure
for vorcha recruitment. "The doctor and his highly theoretical work are
incidental," claimed one Citadel diplomat. "The promise of longer life
is simply a carrot for Hurgott to dangle in front of his vorcha
'friends.'" Lux's research has been confiscated and is currently
undergoing review to determine whether it falls outside the boundaries
of the Citadel's genetic engineering restrictions.”

Modifié par Seboist, 09 août 2011 - 06:49 .

[GodWood]

"I have a dream.

I have a dream that one day on the arms of the Citadel, the children of today's vorcha and the children of today's Council species will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even on Omega, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by their species but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!"

Modifié par GodWood, 09 août 2011 - 07:11 .

[Sebby]

That brought a tear to my eye GodWood.

[Sebby]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Just eradicate those vermin before they ruin the carpet.

So says the Quarian sympathizer!

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Just eradicate those vermin before they ruin the carpet.

You're a defeatist. Once we become Reapers, we won't care about the carpet any more.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Just eradicate those vermin before they ruin the carpet.

You're a defeatist. Once we become Reapers, we won't care about the carpet any more.

Youch...well said sir.

We may disagree on some points but I think we can see the Vorcha won't have a rebellion,or get drunk with new found freedom and try and crap on the carpets of the galaxy.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 09 août 2011 - 08:35 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And if the Normandy can take it out, then so can other ships.
Like you said - it's just a frigate. Even unapgraded it can take out the Collector ship.
Upgraded, it has the firepower of a cruiser.

So if the SA sent a cruiser or two, they should have been a even match for the Collector ship.

Which is why I keep scratching my head, wondering why the Alliance could possibly outmatched by a Collector Ship, while Shepard's one, fully upgraded ship apparently takes it out like nothing.

I also hate the concept of the Alliance possibly sending ships after the Collectors, since chances are, they're going into the Terminus Systems. In ME1, they claim doing so is an act of war. But I seriously doubt the Collectors would be going in Alliance space. So it's one of those brain hurt moments.

You're not the only one scratching your head.

The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that the SA send only 1 ship at a time, and smaller vessels to boot.

Either that or the SA is totally incompetent.

Or the devs really didn't bother to make the cutscenes and the lore work together at all (like one shot kills from a pistol).

And if hte Alliance further gives the tech?
Cause you are now
operating on two assumptions - that Cerberus won't give anything at all.
And that if it gives to the SA, the SA won't pass it on.

If the Alliance did, that'd be out of his control, unless he really had enough pull when it comes to how the Alliance does things. Which is possible, since they did convince the Alliance to work with the Turians to make the original Normandy, for study reasons. What happens though is anyone's guess.

All i know is, if TIM claims that base will secure human dominance, and he plans to use it for more then just Reapers, then he'd have to hold some stuff back if he can help it. Because if the base was just about survival, that's how he'd say it. if it was just about survivial, you give that stuff to everyone. But instead he says dominance, and against the Reapers and beyond. Which can't happen if he gives everything over to everyone. Then he has no advantages over anything then just Reapers. It wouldn't secure human domance. It would just secure survival. Which means, again, if he wants to secure human dominace, he'd have to hold anything he could back. Maybe even the base itself, but email the knowledge, and ways to create advanced ships to the Alliance. While still keeping everything else secured by Cerberus.

The Alliance isn't under TIMs control and never was.

Human survival is the first step to human dominance. There can be no dominance wihout survival and survival takes precedence over dominance. That is logical enough.

And you seem to be forgetting - the base has years, decades worth of research potential in it. It won't be exhausted when the repaers come. The base is a unique resource that only Cerberus/humantiy has.

Even if TIM were to give everything then, there's still be a lot of things left to research afterwards.
And TIM doesn't really have to give EVERYTHING - only discoveries that would be of most use against the repaers.

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...
1. TIM having a plan to keep the base, you dismiss this as a possibility by stating he couldn't have had such a plan because of the specifics of what that plan may entail.

Even though we're already using exactly the same criteria in TIM's plan to destroy the base, going in blind with no specific plans whatsoever.

Destroying the base is a general plan, specifics of how to destroy the base come later, if it can be true for that plan, then it stands to reason that it could also be true for a plan to keep the base, but rather than see this argument, you return to we don't have enough info to do one, without understanding that we don't have the info to do either.

And I already explained the difference and left a link to the cutscene that shows TIM not giving you any specific orders.
At no point does he tell you to go trough the relay and blow the station up.

To put it simply there was no practical need for TIM to tell you anything about capturing it.
Not only TIM, but any other military commander either. There's too much unkowns to come with any feasable plan, so what you basicly do is go trough to see what's out there and THEN make a plan.

Destruction is straight application of firewpoer.
Capturing an asset is far more complex.

2. I used metagaming to prove a point, your argument is that cerberus are not a threat because they haven't got the resources, even though you now know they do, you still cling to the same argument.

What resources?
Excuse me, but a hundered troopers is hardly a horrific threat. Any mercenenary band in the universe is just as big a threat - military wise - as Cerberus is.

Demand the tech from cerberus in intervals and if they don't hand it over then take it by force and that way you'll get your hands on the tech before the reapers arrive, that's your answer.

Just how much time do you think we have? the reapers are basically here, so how long exactly are these intervals you suggest, just how much time do we give cerberus to hand us over this tech before we begin to take it over by force.

Yes, that's my answer.
Since we don't know exactly when the reapers will arrive ti's kinda a moot point. The interval is something to be determined by the SA.

But if the reapers do arrive before Cerberus give you anything, you can still go after Cerberus, as reapers have to advnace more slowly. Which gives you time to get that info from Cerberus.

You continually argue that cerberus Would be no more than a nuisance, even though you now know this to be a false premise (yes its metagaming but it still proves your point wrong), then your solution to sorting out a problem if they turn on you once the reapers arrive, is to not wait until the reapers arrive.

The benefits outweigh the risks stated as fact, something you cannot know and only assume to be true.

It's not a flase premise.
You know the military capacity of Cerberus, and the 40% of opponent numbers is irrrevelant. Why? Because it's only troopers for one, and for another that's a gameplay number, not a lore number (again, compare that to the supposed number of mages in the DA universe).

Yes the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.
I can state that because the benefits and risks can be gauged and predicted somewhat reasonably (best case scenario, worst case scenario, most probable scenario)....and because the dire situation favors taking risks

[Lotion Soronarr]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Still, Hacketts line still bothers me that apparently the Collector Ship is too much for them. Maybe the speed of the Normandy makes a difference?

EDI is probably what makes the difference. Remember that the Collectors can black-out entire colonies. Perhaps they can do something similar with any Alliance ships that try to stop them.

EDI however can counter their cyber-attacks which leaves the Normandy free.

After all we saw what the IFF did when it interfeared with the systems. The Collector ship itself tried to stall the Normandy when we sprung the trap while investigating it.

Any ship without EDI may very well have been helpless.

You forget - the reaper IFF was installed directy into the ship, thus giving the collectors direct acess to the Normandy. and hte only times the Collectors cyber-attacked the Normandy was when they had direct acess.

Cyber attacks are impossible if you cannot access what you're tring to attack. Any military assset - especially a warship - will not only have no direct acess point (it's a clsoed system in essence), but any internal point it has , will be havily protected and secured.

So I don't find that theory credible at all.

[Arijharn]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Indeed. I don't think the Collector ship was ever intended to be used in a head-to-head battle. Consider its design. The ship is shaped like a long tube, completely exposed right down the middle all the way down to the engine block. It's no surprise. That's a huge design flaw for a combat vehicle.

Considering the Collectors' job, I don't think that thing was designed for combat. 

Yeah, as Shepard says in the Renegade Speech, Collectors are more hit and run fighters.

Still, Hacketts line still bothers me that apparently the Collector Ship is too much for them. Maybe the speed of the Normandy makes a difference?

I think it was more to do with the fact that although the cruiser may or may not be designed primarily for combat, it still had access to advanced weaponry. It seems pretty quick to re-orientate itself because it still manages to hit the Normandy even with Joker's skill.

[Patchwork]

The Normandy is a human ship but all the upgrades are alien in origin. It's not unreasonable to think that the Alliance's ships don't have the protection of Tali's shields, Asari armour and Truian canons.

[alperez]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



And I already explained the difference and left a link to the cutscene that shows TIM not giving you any specific orders.
At no point does he tell you to go trough the relay and blow the station up.

To put it simply there was no practical need for TIM to tell you anything about capturing it.
Not only TIM, but any other military commander either. There's too much unkowns to come with any feasable plan, so what you basicly do is go trough to see what's out there and THEN make a plan.

Destruction is straight application of firewpoer.
Capturing an asset is far more complex.

Ok go through the relay and stop the collectors, is basically the general plan your working on, (not exactly blow the base up but what else does stopping them infer).

Your original argument was basically as follows.

A. there can't be a general plan to capture the base

because

B. the specifics of that plan require data that's unknown to you

even though

A, there can be a general plan to stop the collectors

despite

B, the specifics of that plan also require data that at that point is unknown to you.

I argue that if the second part is true which it is, then the first part could also be true, something you claim it couldn't be because of the fact that the specifics would be unknown.

The practical need of whether or not TIM would tell you if a plan to capture the base existed is irrelevant considering its already been proved to be the case that when it suits him, he holds info back.

In terms of destruction being easier than capture, that too is based on the assumption that your able to destroy a theroetical base, that you have no specific data on when you go through the relay in the first place, so in terms of how your arguing this point, its basically the same thing.

I'm not questioning that the specifics of either plan would have been known to anyone pre going through the relay, simply that a plan to stop the collectors by destroying there base of operations was a general plan based on lack of info, so a plan to capture the base doesn't need the specific info to exist either.

What resources?
Excuse me, but a hundered troopers is hardly a horrific threat. Any mercenenary band in the universe is just as big a threat - military wise - as Cerberus is.

 
Where do you get the figure of a hundered troopers and that this is in fact all the resources that Cerberus has?

I used metagaming to explain what we know now, that 40% of the enemies we will face in Me3 will be made up from cerberus, we also know that included in these enemies is the atlas mech (a tech advancement on what we've faced thus far)

Secondly i've also stated that the threat posed by cerberus increases in line with the fact that your resources are also fighting another front, which even if there was only a hundred troopers makes those hundred a vastly bigger threat.

Special forces units using guerrilla tactics would provide a significant threat especially if those units were mobile and attacking you, while you were also under attack from the reapers themselves, flanking your positions, attacking from the rear, using hit and run tactics, all of this in the midst of being under attack from the reapers, isn's a horrfying threat to you, then you must be an extreme military genius, because to most its a nightmare scenario.

Yes, that's my answer.
Since we don't know exactly when the reapers will arrive ti's kinda a moot point. The interval is something to be determined by the SA.

But if the reapers do arrive before Cerberus give you anything, you can still go after Cerberus, as reapers have to advnace more slowly. Which gives you time to get that info from Cerberus.

We're given the impression though its pretty soon after the events of me2, which doesn't imo leave much time for the intervals you suggest.

But your second answer that even if the reapers arrrive we can still go after cerberus if needs must because the reapers attack more slowly, just doesn't make any sense.

We're under attack from the reapers fighting for our very existence (the point you continually make for keeping the base) and you think we can take time out to go after cerberus because the reapers are slow. That despite the reapers attack , despite everything that entails, we would have the time and resources available to go after cerberus, counting on the slowness of the reapers to give us that time.

It's not a flase premise.
You know the military capacity of Cerberus, and the 40% of opponent numbers is irrrevelant. Why? Because it's only troopers for one, and for another that's a gameplay number, not a lore number (again, compare that to the supposed number of mages in the DA universe).

Yes the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.
I can state that because the benefits and risks can be gauged and predicted somewhat reasonably (best case scenario, worst case scenario, most probable scenario)....and because the dire situation favors taking risks

Again with its just troopers, obviously you know more about the cerberus forces than anyone else, which considering you ain't actually faced them yet is a mighty fine trick. We've been shown troopers and atlas mechs so far and there's probably more to come before we get to me3. But you continue to claim its just a few troopers with guns we need to worry about.

The potential risks outweighs the potential benefits  because in my opinion after analysing what may turn out to be (the best, worst and most probable scenarios) my conlclussion is that the direness of the situation favors taking no risks.

See what i did there, i stated what you did only unlike you i stated it as an opinion, not as a factual statement.

Again let me be clear on something, i have no issue whatsoever in the conclussions you've come to or why you decide things how you do, i disagree with those conclussions can see why you came to them, if only you could see the reasons why others came to different conclussions and state your opinions as what they are opinions not fact or logic, the world would be a much happier place, although the arguments would be so much shorter.

Modifié par alperez, 09 août 2011 - 12:06 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Ser Bard wrote...

The Normandy is a human ship but all the upgrades are alien in origin. It's not unreasonable to think that the Alliance's ships don't have the protection of Tali's shields, Asari armour and Truian canons.

The Normandy needs none of the upgrades in order to still completely steamroll the Collector cruiser. So all it means that a heavy frigate WITH DAMAGED shields still completely destroyed it.

Also where is the dialog that states Hacket had sent Alliance ships after it?

[didymos1120]

Lizardviking wrote...

Also where is the dialog that states Hacket had sent Alliance ships after it?

Arrival pre-SM:

"We're setting fleets around our major colonies and evacuating our smaller ones. But the ships that encountered the Collectors haven't reported back."

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Also where is the dialog that states Hacket had sent Alliance ships after it?

Arrival pre-SM:

"We're setting fleets around our major colonies and evacuating our smaller ones. But the ships that encountered the Collectors haven't reported back."

So the Collector have already attacked alliance space? How many ships (that were destroyed by the Collectors) are we exactly talking about? Why wasn't this info part of the main-game?

[TMA LIVE]

Lizardviking wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Also where is the dialog that states Hacket had sent Alliance ships after it?

Arrival pre-SM:

"We're setting fleets around our major colonies and evacuating our smaller ones. But the ships that encountered the Collectors haven't reported back."

So the Collector have already attacked alliance space? How many ships (that were destroyed by the Collectors) are we exactly talking about? Why wasn't this info part of the main-game?

Good question. I was always under the impression that the Alliance was doing nothing, or couldn't because it was the Terminus Systems. Next thing I know, they're sending ships after the Collectors, and claim they're outmatched.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 09 août 2011 - 12:44 .

[TMA LIVE]

SuperistSquirrel wrote...

I blow the heck out of the Collectors' base every time. (Except my main renegade.)

Same. For my canon Paragade, I blow it up. For my Renegon Femshep, I hand it to Cerberus. I try to keep both different enough, so each playthrough is a different experience.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 09 août 2011 - 01:18 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

alperez wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



And I already explained the difference and left a link to the cutscene that shows TIM not giving you any specific orders.
At no point does he tell you to go trough the relay and blow the station up.

To put it simply there was no practical need for TIM to tell you anything about capturing it.
Not only TIM, but any other military commander either. There's too much unkowns to come with any feasable plan, so what you basicly do is go trough to see what's out there and THEN make a plan.

Destruction is straight application of firewpoer.
Capturing an asset is far more complex.

Ok go through the relay and stop the collectors, is basically the general plan your working on, (not exactly blow the base up but what else does stopping them infer).

Your original argument was basically as follows.

A. there can't be a general plan to capture the base

because

B. the specifics of that plan require data that's unknown to you

even though

A, there can be a general plan to stop the collectors

despite

B, the specifics of that plan also require data that at that point is unknown to you.

I argue that if the second part is true which it is, then the first part could also be true, something you claim it couldn't be because of the fact that the specifics would be unknown.

The practical need of whether or not TIM would tell you if a plan to capture the base existed is irrelevant considering its already been proved to be the case that when it suits him, he holds info back.

In terms of destruction being easier than capture, that too is based on the assumption that your able to destroy a theroetical base, that you have no specific data on when you go through the relay in the first place, so in terms of how your arguing this point, its basically the same thing.

I'm not questioning that the specifics of either plan would have been known to anyone pre going through the relay, simply that a plan to stop the collectors by destroying there base of operations was a general plan based on lack of info, so a plan to capture the base doesn't need the specific info to exist either.

You shoot yourself in the foot here.
"Stop the collectors" is a genral as you can get. That's no plan - taht's a statement of intenet.

And no point does TIM tell you to blow the base up. Yet you expect him to tell you to capture it before we (and he) even knows anything about the base, or even if there is one to begin with!

Again, you can't capture something just like that. you need ot know waht kind of defenses it has, security, the opposing forces - you can't even tell if capturing it is a feasable plan AT ALL. What if the base reactor was incapable of triggering that pulse? That then?


So I really don't understand your point at all. You want TIM to give you a non-existing plan to capture the base based on nothing, when he didn't give you any plan to blow it up before that either?

And yes, practical concerns are in fact, very relevant. You've been atrributing nefarious motives to TIM's late reveal of hte plan, when what he did is compeltley normal for anyone to do.

What resources?
Excuse me, but a hundered troopers is hardly a horrific threat. Any mercenenary band in the universe is just as big a threat - military wise - as Cerberus is.

 
Where do you get the figure of a hundered troopers and that this is in fact all the resources that Cerberus has?

I used metagaming to explain what we know now, that 40% of the enemies we will face in Me3 will be made up from cerberus, we also know that included in these enemies is the atlas mech (a tech advancement on what we've faced thus far)

Secondly i've also stated that the threat posed by cerberus increases in line with the fact that your resources are also fighting another front, which even if there was only a hundred troopers makes those hundred a vastly bigger threat.

Special forces units using guerrilla tactics would provide a significant threat especially if those units were mobile and attacking you, while you were also under attack from the reapers themselves, flanking your positions, attacking from the rear, using hit and run tactics, all of this in the midst of being under attack from the reapers, isn's a horrfying threat to you, then you must be an extreme military genius, because to most its a nightmare scenario.

Where do I get those? Because Cerberus is a small organization, that's where.

If Cerberus attacks during the reaper attack, yet, ti's more of a problem then. However, you'll be acing indoctrinated resitance one way or another AND that holds true for ANY potential ally you recruit.
What about the Rachni? Or Geth? Anyone cna turn on you as soon as the repaers arrive, and those would be a far greater threat than Cerberus.
So I ask you - how do you justify those decision, if you yourself claim you can't take any risks???

Yes, that's my answer.
Since we don't know exactly when the reapers will arrive ti's kinda a moot point. The interval is something to be determined by the SA.

But if the reapers do arrive before Cerberus give you anything, you can still go after Cerberus, as reapers have to advnace more slowly. Which gives you time to get that info from Cerberus.

We're given the impression though its pretty soon after the events of me2, which doesn't imo leave much time for the intervals you suggest.

But your second answer that even if the reapers arrrive we can still go after cerberus if needs must because the reapers attack more slowly, just doesn't make any sense.

We're under attack from the reapers fighting for our very existence (the point you continually make for keeping the base) and you think we can take time out to go after cerberus because the reapers are slow. That despite the reapers attack , despite everything that entails, we would have the time and resources available to go after cerberus, counting on the slowness of the reapers to give us that time.

Yes. Because if there's info and tech in Cerberuses possesion, then it's worth it.

You can ask yourself why Shep goes to save that Krogan princess or why he does half the stuff, and isn't at Earth, fighting. Where does he get the time to do that?
Because it could be advantagous to the war effort. And if that's the case than sacrificing a world, or spliiting your forces is indeed justified.

It's not a flase premise.
You know the military capacity of Cerberus, and the 40% of opponent numbers is irrrevelant. Why? Because it's only troopers for one, and for another that's a gameplay number, not a lore number (again, compare that to the supposed number of mages in the DA universe).

Yes the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks.
I can state that because the benefits and risks can be gauged and predicted somewhat reasonably (best case scenario, worst case scenario, most probable scenario)....and because the dire situation favors taking risks

Again with its just troopers, obviously you know more about the cerberus forces than anyone else, which considering you ain't actually faced them yet is a mighty fine trick. We've been shown troopers and atlas mechs so far and there's probably more to come before we get to me3. But you continue to claim its just a few troopers with guns we need to worry about.

The potential risks outweighs the potential benefits  because in my opinion after analysing what may turn out to be (the best, worst and most probable scenarios) my conlclussion is that the direness of the situation favors taking no risks.

See what i did there, I stated what you did only unlike you i stated it as an opinion, not as a factual statement.

And your analysis is just plain wrong there..
For reason that many other posters before me have stated numerous time, and probably better than I could.

Again let me be clear on something, i have no issue whatsoever in the conclussions you've come to or why you decide things how you do, i disagree with those conclussions can see why you came to them, if only you could see the reasons why others came to different conclussions and state your opinions as what they are opinions not fact or logic, the world would be a much happier place, although the arguments would be so much shorter.

I can see the reaosn why you came to those conclusions.
They just happen to be the wrong reasons.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 09 août 2011 - 02:26 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Damn, GodWood, that was amazing.