[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, you are now twisting things.
You have been saiyng that TIM "witholding" the base capture plan was due to his scheeming, and waiting with the plan to put Shep on the spot.
I said nothing about with WANTING, I said about thim HAVING a PRACTICAL, WORKABLE plan to do it. And since by your own admission, TIM coudlnt' have had a practical plan untill AFTER he had the base scans, you now basicly prove my point.
That there was nothing suspicious in TIM telling you when he did.
[/quote]
Again your mixing up what i've said to try to suit your argument, i got into this discussion at a point when you were discussing it with someone else, you suggested that TIM could not have had a plan to capture the base because of a lack of specific data.
I suggested that he could and have argued the reasons why, my arguments have had nothing to do with the specifics of that plan which is where we seem to have got waylaid.
My point has never been that TIM witheld the info until he did because he had a plan to capture the base but rather that this is a possibility and the reasons you suggested why it couldn't have been were incorrect.
But then your last point trys to portray the same original argument you've had from the beginning, that TIM not having the specifics of a plan to capture the base precludes him always having the general plan from the beginning which it does not.[/quote]
Quit lying your ass off.
You got into this argument arguing that TIM HAD a plan and didn't want to share it.
Now you change it into Tim just wanted to capture it, but didn't have a plan yet".
And no, this wasn't a possiblity at all. It was a impossiblity, and I allready explained why. There is no general plan worthy of mention in the first place and there CAN'T be one.
[quote]
If all they did was as you suggest then you'd be right, by the sounds of things though that's not exactly the case, they make up a large proportion of the enemies we're due to face (yes its metagaming but its used to illustrate a point).[/quote]
Matgaming that DOESN'T illustrate hte point.
[quote]
For what seems to be the first time the gloves are off when it comes to cerberus, up to this point we've seen very little of their true strength, that looks like changing in me3 which is what i mean by out of the shadows. Up to now their actions have been covert and have only been out in the open because of the mistakes of those operations, they've been an inconvieniance galactically rather than a threat, in me3 that appears to change.
We have no idea of the numbers, all we have is a limited piece of info that may turn out to be incorrect, we don't know how many troops cereberus really have or how many they will have come me3, we don't know if for the past 2 games they've been building an army or if they're made up of just a few commandoes, what we have is limited info leading to assumptions that may or may not turn out to be incorrect, at present it looks like that is indeed the case.[/quote]
No it doesn't. I means nothing of the sort.
You know what it means? It menas the devs' want more enemies on the levels, that's what it means.
You do realise that having a thousand soldiers in a not a great power? Not even on a single planet, not even in a single country. And especially not on a galactic scale.
And yes, we do have numbers given by EDI, yet you insist that those are incorrect. If you want to argue that way, then everything said by everyone can be incorrect.
[quote][quote]
So you're basicly banking on the card that everything we've been told so far about Cerberus in the game is a lie? You honestly trying to argue that route?
And you honestly trying to reason that small black ops organizations THAT TRY TO STAY HIDDDEN can recruit thousands easily? Oh, it's not like they are wanted and there's probably spies and double agents, and the more peopel there are, the greater the chances of some of them slipping trouhg, no?
You fixated on the 40% of enemies is Cerberus as an argument, when history is shown that that doesn't work that way.
I ask you agaia - explain to me the discrepency between the number of mages in DA as you play, and thair supposed rarity in the setting.
Once you answer that question, you'll also know whey there's so many Cerberus enemies. And why there's usually so many enemies of nay kind in any Bio game. Becasue the player needs obstables and the game needs padding.
[/quote]
I'm not fixated on anything in fact if anything it seems to be you that's fixated on your own assumptions regarding cerberus, what i've said is not that what we've been told is a lie but that as yet we don't have the entire truth.[/quote]
It's not a lie, ti's jsut not the truth? Twisting words to muddle the waters? Doesn't work on me, sorry bub. you were constantly bringing up the 40% Cerberus number, so yes, you ARE using that as your argument.
[quote]
Me1 suggests cerberus to be a rogue black ops organisation gone wrong, it doesn't suggest the cerberus we encounter in me2, so is me1 lying to us?[/quoteg
I don't see any discrepency between ME1 and ME2. Cerberus in both is a rougle Black Ops organization.
[quote]
Its giving us part of the story, not the full one, in me2 you learn that what you assumed about cerberus based on me1 may not have been the full story, they are much bigger and much better resourced than anything me1 would have led you to believe, so why could this not also be true for me3?[/quote]
Bigger and better resourced than ME1 would led you to believe? Not really. I havn't seen anything in ME1 that suggest that they are poor and without resources. Even in ME1 they had several bases.
We see more of the Cerberus in ME2, and from a different angle, but what we see isn't incosistent with ME1.
[quote][quote]
Trust a main factor? And this is where it all breaks down. Survival should be the main factor.
you yoursaid siad that we we HAVE to band together to fight the reapers. Any remotely rational being should understand that. Great trust is not really necessary. The desire to survive and the will to fight is.
[/quote]
But who to trust to ensure survival?
However way you wish to phrase it trust has to be a main factor, if you cannot trust your allies then your opening yourself up to second guessing your choices and worrying about the wrong things.
Every army that has allies worries if they can trust those allies, it factors into the choices those armies make and is used as a large part of reasoning in those choices, its a basic military tactic, if you can't trust your allies are loyal or competent then your choices are always going to be made with that in mind.[/quote]
I can trust averyone to want to survive.
I can trust people to do what they have been doing so far non-stop.
Reapers really don't give anyone a choice in the matter at all. Remeber Vigil? No offer of surrender was ever given.
[quote]
No 2 choices are the same for a variety of reasons, you want to lump the choices together because it suits a flawed point your trying to make, when in reality each choice has to be judged on its own merits and not on a simple if i do this then i must do that sceanrio.[/quote]
If you claim that risk prevention is of outmost importnace, then yes. Yes you have.
[quote]
You claim you evalulate and then logically come up with your reasoning, but that logic is different based on the information you possess and the situation your faced with, otherwise your making choices not based on logic but on dogma.
[/quote]
Aren't you the one who actually proives this? You are the one that claimed that the situation with the reapers is so dire, you cannot afford to take risks.
Yet you take a massive risk with the Rachnii queen..and why? For a very emotional one..because - as you admitted - you don't want to kill her.
That there is dogma. You put your own piece of mind above the need of the galaxy in your decision making.
The primary mover in your decision is not logic or cost/benefit.
[quote][quote]
A highly emotional decision, as it ignores the potential devastating consequences. Concequences far worse than anything Cerberus can do. So why do you trust her? Based on what?
Because if trust is suddenly NOT a main factor, then you are indeed conflicting yourself and are showing a double-standard. If trust is rellevant for Cerberus, but not here, you got a problem.
[/quote]
Of course its an emotional decision, dooming a race to extinction should be emotional, we're not machines, its our emotions that define us in relation to every other species.
Again i've explained this, handing a base over to cerberus or dooming a sentient species to extinction are not equal choices, the choice i have is not hand the base or kill TIM, its hand the base or don't, you seem unwilling to distinguish the difference between those 2 points.[/quote]
And such important decisions should not be made on an emotinal basis. With the responsiblity Shep has, decisions should be focused on the benefit to the galaxy.
The Rachii are an exinct race, brought back by an experiment gone wrong. One could argue if they even are real Rachnii or if bringing them bakc is the right thing to do. But that's beside the point.
The difference between the 2 choices is irrelevant, because the crux of the matter remains the same. The dangers and benefits involved and how it would influence the galaxy.
[quote][quote]
And given the danger of the reapers, we need every ship we can get. I agree on that. However, isn't the danger of the Geth turning against us ALSO far greater than anything Cerberus can do?
Do you really have any more reason to trust the geth than you have the rachnii or Cerberus? Not really. Legion could be lying to you.
[/quote]
I have no evidence that legion is lying or not telling me the complete truth when i make the choice, so i either accept his word or do not.[/quote]
Even tough it makes sense for Legion to lie to you?
And TIM and Cerberus? When did they lie? There's only one place where TIM didn't tell youeverything, and he had good resons for it, so its' a moot point.
[quote][quote]
In other words, you trusted her on her words only, even tough it makes perfect sense for her to lie to you.
[/quote]
She has every reason to lie to me, but where is the evidence that she is lying, where is the examples that she may not be telling me the full truth, its certainly not there when you have to make the choice, all you have to go on is whether or not you trust her or not.
[quote]
He could be a heretic that is using you to help destroy the loyalists. He could be lying to you easily.
[/quote]
Indeed he could, but at the point you make the choice, do you have evidence that says this is the case, do you have examples where he hasn't been honest with you or told you the complete truth, no you don't so again you left with an option, trust or not.[/quote]
Of course you dont' have counter-explaned with the Rachnii queen. She only talked to you ONCE.
But the point is if someone lied to you even once, then you can never trust them? Regardless of what they do?
So agian, Cerberus actively helps you fight the Reapers. Tim holds back one piece of info from you (for a god reason). Cerberus continues to help you. And suddenly they can never be trusted?
[quote]
I'm distrusting Cerberus based on my experiences thus far with them, TIM has shown he will tell you only what he feels he needs to, They've been shown to be reckless in their quest for exploring reaper tech and incompetent at times in their handling of it.[/quote]
TIM has witheld information ONCE (for a good reason) and you condemn Cerberus forever? Bias much?
Their handling of Repaer tech? Not worse thany anyone else really - you can't blame them for fallingt o indoctrination and then ignore than everyone else also seems to fall to it, regardless of race or affilation (Saren, Benezia, Teh asari researcher, alliance scientists, Salarians, etc..)
[quote]
I have never said with certainty that TIM stabs me in the back, what i've said all along is that there remains a large possibility that he could or indeed might do so[/quote]
The "large possiblity" is rooted in the idea that TIM wants to TAKE OVER THE WROLD (Of course!!!!) and holds that more important than survival of humanity.
In itself that is a redicolous assertion.
[quote]
The base itself is a wildcard also, your claim that it isn't doesn't really ring through, yes it could be everything you say it is, it could also be something that by its very nature leads to extremely dire consequences, the fact that even if the first part was true and the second was only a slim possibility. [/quote]
The base WILL yield technology and knowledge. There's no IF about it. It is impossible to study advanced technology and learn nothing.
You concern is if that knowledge would be use against the galaxy (which is tied to TIM taking over the wrold bit).
Yet the danger of the entire galaxy fallign wihtout that knowledge is something you cheerfully overlook.
[quote]
The whole reason that you should pay attention to cerberus is the mere fact that they will be the ones in control of the base, not you, not anyone else, cerberus, you have to worry and pay attention to the reapers, but because of how the choice is presented to you, you also have to worry about cerberus also.[/quote]
And you seem to forget that you know where the base is and how to get it, and you have EDI and 2 high-ranking Cerberus officers and the Alliacne on your side should Cerberus get upity.
And that helping you and everyone else IS in the best interest of Cerberus and Humanity.
The chances of Cerberus back-stabbing the galaxy on purpose are infintesimal (as again, it is agasint theri own interest). The only realistic danger is indoctrination, but in that case it wouldn't matter to whom you hand the base over.
[quote][quote]
Redicolous arguments. I don't trust them because it's me that made them. Heck, I made a lot of wrong decisions in my life. I trust my decisions because I analyzed them carefully and weighed them, and took pains to distance myself emotionally.
Humans are not based purely on logic, but tehy also should let their emotions and bias cloud their judgment.
[/quote]
Yes you are Lotion the worlds first emotionless man, your choices have no emotional bias whatsoever and instead deal only in logic and fact, your able to completely emotionally distance yourself from every choice you make, carefully analyse them and weigh up the pro's and cons, you are unique sir, you should pat yourself on the back (after emotionally distancing yourself of course).
While we may all claim to emotionally distance ourself and make sound choices with no emotional bias cloud our judgement, the reality is we're human, we just don't function that way (except you of course, your unique).
[/quote]
Well, I can distance myself far more than you in any case.
Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 août 2011 - 11:17 .
Retour en haut
