3618 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

The only illogical thing is suggesting that someone who takes a contrary view to yours is being illogical.

To be fair, there are people on both sides of the Red/Blue line that have demonstrated that their decisions are illogical regarding the CB. Over all, I think you restated my initial point, though, that either decision can be reached by the use of logic.

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Actually, we dont' have any solid numbers of the reapers...I'd guess in the hunderds, possibly even thousands.

They are thousands. We have a video showing only a part of their force, and it is definitely significant.

And yeah, I'm kinda missing your point I guess. Becaue I don't understand what your'e trying to say here.
"If the bese can't makes us more powerfull than the reapers, it's useless?"

Under no circumstances can the base be used to actually defeat the Reapers. Therefore, it is absolutely useless, even in a scorched earth scenario.

No advantage or enhacement you can get is uselss.

Except that that's exactly the problem. It's definitely  not an advantage (against the Reapers, at least), and it doesn't enhance the situation in the slightest.

Any argument behind saving the base is based on "Well, we may have absolutely no proof that the Base is useful, but it may  give us an advantage against the Reapers."

Guess what, it can't. Even in the most optimistic and badly written scenario you still don't have the slightest advantage over the Reapers. You could have, if it actually gave you the power of the entire Reaper fleet, but you would have to compete with the Reapers' strategy and greater intelligence.

So, in short, under no circumstances, can the base help you defeat the Reapers.
If you do however save the world without it, which you will, or else we wouldn't have ME3, you have an illegal group with what could be the greatest WMD in history. And guess wha

I did.
You base your entire condemnation of TIM and Cerberus on what? TIM smiling? 

Actually, I meant "destroy" the base. That's where the infamous "human domination" bit about "beyond the Reapers" comes in.

How is having more pwoerfull weapons NOT redicing the gap?

Because they are still just as useless. Just because you switched from a wooden slingshot to a metallic one and you are firing against a tank, doesn't make it useful at all. I mean, think.

How does having more powerful lweapons equal NOT being able to hurt the reapers???

Because you can't harm the Reaper fleet. It's uh, duh.

Whether you could rally a fleet to actually take down a single Reaper is very debatable, the possibility causing harm against entire fleets is not worthy of discussion.

The reapers aren't unkillable. Tough, yes. But you CAN kill them with weapons less advanced than theirs.
It has bene done before.

I'm sorry, but this argument is utterly absurd.
Please stop while I still respect you....

Except that it hasn't.

Sovereign wasn't taken down until after his shields malfunctioned.

The Derelict Reaper suffered a blow from an entire race's only superweapon and didn't die. It wa

Because you say so?

It's not cool or edgy to throw a punchline when you even go ahead and quote the paragraph which answers you:
"
Insert all the plot magic you want, have the HR carry a main weapon, or have Cerberus find a weakness, make it so that a few months are enough time for Cerberus to reverse enginer the weakness or the main weapon and create a superweapon that gives a vessel the firepower of a Reaper, and then have Cerberus distribute it to every cruiser in the galaxy... You still lose.

The Base is irrelevant as a weapon against the Reapers and this is why."

The best that Cerberus can produce out of the base is a single Reaper against thousands, and even that is extremely debatable.

Seriously, what do you propose then? What is your solution? Die? Don't even try to close the gap? Sit down and pray?

1) First off, don't arm Cerberus, you can be safer that way, considering that they could only possible attack you and your allies.

2) Investigate the dark space relay on the Citadel.

3) Gather allies and listen to their suggestions, work with them for maximum efficiency.

4) Use small smart nukes that get past the Reaper shields/barriers and explode then. Use the "invsibility" technolodgy to make them undetectable. Reaper shields must be seperated for even a few nanometers from the central body. That's enough, if you know what you are doing.

5) Develop a plan to get the Reapers to use avatars, in order to overwhelm them like in ME1. In theory, you could use the Retribution implants for non-organic structures, which would spam the Reapers' processing units with information, and well, even with a self-destruct mechanism if that's enough to startle the Reapers.

6) Investigate the SB's Prothean tech (?) which is mentioned in LotSB, and he counted on it to save his ass.


EDIT: Oh, and go ahead and explain what we can actually get from the base.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 juillet 2011 - 08:47 .

[alperez]

SandTrout wrote...

The only illogical thing is suggesting that someone who takes a contrary view to yours is being illogical.

To be fair, there are people on both sides of the Red/Blue line that have demonstrated that their decisions are illogical regarding the CB. Over all, I think you restated my initial point, though, that either decision can be reached by the use of logic.

I completely agree both sides of the debate use illogical arguments to prove their own choice was logical, rather than accept that there are logical reasons for why both choices can be made and can be defended.

I have no issue with someone saying they keep the base for the reasons they do and explaining those reasons or with the alternative, its when people start trying to suggest that their own choice was the only logical one where i take issue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Also, the Derelict Reaper WAS killed with hand-held weapons...

No, it was already dead, and the only thing you did was to destroy its element zero core. FROM THE INSIDE. Which anyone can do.

It wasn't really dead, since it indoctrinated scientists, kept the mass effect field (and raised it to trap you) and sent husks after you. More like hibernating or heavily wounded.

And yes...destroying it's element zero core IS killing him. Doesnt' matter if it's from inside. Taking advnatage of a weakness is just that. in the case of a derelict reaper is was that oyu were already inside and it couldn't prevent you from boarding. In the care of HR is that it wasn't finished so you could focus on it's explosed weak point.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What a logical black hole here. Read the marked parts please. The base that's used to BUILD a reaper, doens't have repaer tech in it??? Whaaaat? From what is the reaper built then? Air?
The parts for the reaper are manufactured and assembled on the spot...so of course there is reaper tech!

Guess what they needed the humans for...

If the base already had Reaper tech used to build a Reaper, then shouldn't have been installed in the Reaper fetus instead of collecting dust?

For the organic part of the repaer?

Or are you trying to say that reapers aren't mostly metal? Or did I just imagine the metalic starship with metallic corridors inside and with engines... and the metallic skeleton?

And no, not really. It depends on the build order. Do you pre-manufacture the parts and install them in-sequence? Do you manufacture them at the exact time you want them installed?
Either way, part must be manufactured befire they are attacked(installed. And whatever machinery is used to manufacture them must be on the station. And that is repaer tech.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And yes...destroying it's element zero core IS killing him. Doesnt' matter if it's from inside. Taking advnatage of a weakness is just that. in the case of a derelict reaper is was that oyu were already inside and it couldn't prevent you from boarding. In the care of HR is that it wasn't finished so you could focus on it's explosed weak point.

It does matter, because I don't think you could've done it from the outside. Especially if the Reaper was fully alive and well.

All the Reaper kills Shepard's got thus far were nothing but sheer luck.

Sovereign was disabled when Shepard killed his avatar.

The derelict Reaper was...well, derelict and immobilized by another civilization millions of years before Shepard showed up.

And the human Reaper was far from finished, and had weak points because of it.

[alperez]

HomelessGal wrote...


If the Geth and the rest of the galaxy are so different though (and they are), then why should we apply Legion's ideology at all to the latter? Why use it as a reason to not utilize the base's technology? Given that the races of the galaxy have already irreparably altered one another's technological development, why is adapting Reaper/Collector technology suddenly the violation of said ideology?

The Collector bit is outside the discussion, I just thought it was a neat little bit of related info. Shame they were holding back on the laser guns.

Legion expresses a pov that explains the geth justification in what they do, as a machine his reasoning is more based on logic then ours may be.

When you take that into consideration along with what sovereigns told you in me1 you now have 2 seperate instances of characters telling you practically the same thing. So despite the fact that both of these characters are much different to the rest of the galaxy, what they've said could factor in your appraisal that perhaps using the base is in some ways confirming something you may already suspect.

There are also other instances of characters saying things along the same lines, though not exactly as clear cut as is the case with legion.

It's because of that you can take an assumption from the info you've been given (that doesn't make it a correct one) but it does give a reason why you may use it as part of your reasoning about using the tech on the base.

As for the races already altering one anothers technological advancement, its because your supposed to represent all of those races and not just yourself that your not in fact violating the idealogy.

Your not just humanity, your the combination of humanity,asari, krogan, salarian, turian etcs, combined technological advancements.

Ok this could go wonky but bear with me.

You could think of it this way, Your american but a UN representative, while on mission are you the embodiement of America and the technolgical path your on is only made up from american technology, or are you the embodiement of the UN and the tech path your on is a combination of all the members of the UN?

Modifié par alperez, 30 juillet 2011 - 09:01 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]And yeah, I'm kinda missing your point I guess. Becaue I don't understand what your'e trying to say here.
"If the bese can't makes us more powerfull than the reapers, it's useless?"[/quote]

Under no circumstances can the base be used to actually defeat the Reapers. Therefore, it is absolutely useless, even in a scorched earth scenario.[/quote]

This is complte nonsese...


[quote]
[quote]No advantage or enhacement you can get is uselss.[/quote]
Except that that's exactly the problem. It's definitely  not an advantage (against the Reapers, at least), and it doesn't enhance the situation in the slightest.[/quote]

How would you know?
What are you saiyng now is an utter AFFRONT to logic and reason.

You're talling me that needing 5 ships to kil la reaper instead of 10 DOESN'T enhance the situation AT ALL?
This is fallacy....



[quote]
Guess what, it can't. Even in the most optimistic and badly written scenario you still don't have the slightest advantage over the Reapers. You could have, if it actually gave you the power of the entire Reaper fleet, but you would have to compete with the Reapers' strategy and greater intelligence.

So, in short, under no circumstances, can the base help you defeat the Reapers.
If you do however save the world without it, which you will, or else we wouldn't have ME3, you have an illegal group with what could be the greatest WMD in history. [/quote]

What WMD? I have no idea what weapon you're talkign about here, because nothing is even hinted.

And again, I'll point you to the fact that Cerberus is too small to be of any use other than research and intel gathering. Tehy getting super-cannons doesn't help them take over the universe, becasue they CAN'T.
They don't have a navy. They don't have tens of millions of troops which would be necessary to take and hold.

And TIM certanly isn't insane enough to go to war with the rest of the universe.

And b.t.w - evne if by some super-fantasy magic Cerberus coudl get some super WMD, the galaxy and sentient races of the universe would still survive. STILL a far better scenario than  the reaper victory.




[quote][quote]
You base your entire condemnation of TIM and Cerberus on what? TIM smiling? [/quote]

Actually, I meant "destroy" the base. That's where the infamous "human domination" bit about "beyond the Reapers" comes in.[/quote]

What?




[quote]
[quote]How is having more pwoerfull weapons NOT redicing the gap?[/quote]
Because they are still just as useless. Just because you switched from a wooden slingshot to a metallic one and you are firing against a tank, doesn't make it useful at all. I mean, think.[/quote]

Except your comparison is flawed. Reapers can be killed even with current weapons. Difficult, but can be done.
So it would be like insted of attacking a elephant with a handgun, you attack it with a rifle.
It IS usefull.





[quote]
[quote]The reapers aren't unkillable. Tough, yes. But you CAN kill them with weapons less advanced than theirs.
It has bene done before.

I'm sorry, but this argument is utterly absurd.
Please stop while I still respect you....[/quote]
Except that it hasn't.

Sovereign wasn't taken down until after his shields malfunctioned.

The Derelict Reaper suffered a blow from an entire race's only superweapon and didn't die.[/quote]

We don't know the details about Sovereign. You can't go on and tell me it's invulnerable. We're not even entirely sure what caused it's shield to drop.





[quote]
[quote]Seriously, what do you propose then? What is your solution? Die? Don't even try to close the gap? Sit down and pray?[/quote]
1) First off, don't arm Cerberus, you can be safer that way, considering that they could only possible attack you and your allies.

2) Investigate the dark space relay on the Citadel.

3) Gather allies and listen to their suggestions, work with them for maximum efficiency.

4) Use small smart nukes that get past the Reaper shields/barriers and explode then. Use the "invsibility" technolodgy to make them undetectable. Reaper shields must be seperated for even a few nanometers from the central body. That's enough, if you know what you are doing.

5) Develop a plan to get the Reapers to use avatars, in order to overwhelm them like in ME1. In theory, you could use the Retribution implants for non-organic structures, which would spam the Reapers' processing units with information, and well, even with a self-destruct mechanism if that's enough to startle the Reapers.

6) Investigate the SB's Prothean tech (?) which is mentioned in LotSB, and he counted on it to save his ass.
[/quote]

1) BS. the onyl thing Cerberus cna do is attack you? You're being as unbiased as natzi judge on a jew trial.
(Yes, a Godwin. I don't care)

2) how does that help you?

3) Didn't you jsut say that all allies combined, evne with enhanced reaper tech can't do s***. How it gathering them Without advanced tech better?

4) Except that your miracle super-plan wouldn't work. It's funny you think you can come up with a reaper-killign super weapon, yet at the same time think that scientists working o nthe CB can't come up with anything....

5) How? Do you think you cna FORCE reapers into avatars at will?

6) Prothens were elimanted. Evidently their tech wasn't good enough. So if researching reper tech at the CB (which is better than prothean tech) is useless (your own words), how coudl this be possibly of any use? If anything is evern more useless.......
:huh::huh::huh::huh:

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And yes...destroying it's element zero core IS killing him. Doesnt' matter if it's from inside. Taking advnatage of a weakness is just that. in the case of a derelict reaper is was that oyu were already inside and it couldn't prevent you from boarding. In the care of HR is that it wasn't finished so you could focus on it's explosed weak point.

It does matter, because I don't think you could've done it from the outside. Especially if the Reaper was fully alive and well.

All the Reaper kills Shepard's got thus far were nothing but sheer luck.

Sovereign was disabled when Shepard killed his avatar.

The derelict Reaper was...well, derelict and immobilized by another civilization millions of years before Shepard showed up.

And the human Reaper was far from finished, and had weak points because of it.

And it DOES matter precisely because of that. 

Doesn't matter if you coudn't have done it from the outside. the reaper coudlnt' stop you because it was damaged. You killed it.
The HR couldnt' stop you becasue it was unfinished and had exposed weak points.

Nothing here points to the quality of the technology - one is damaged, other unfinished, both get killed by small arms fire.

On the countrary, I postulate taht the HR is MORE advanced than Sovereign, because it's new. Sovereign is a desing that's hunderds of thousands yers old. Reapers are supposed to learn some new tricks over time too, and thus the new design is therefore more advanced!

Prove me wrong on that if you can...

[SandTrout]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]And yeah, I'm kinda missing your point I guess. Becaue I don't understand what your'e trying to say here.
"If the bese can't makes us more powerfull than the reapers, it's useless?"[/quote]
Under no circumstances can the base be used to actually defeat the Reapers. Therefore, it is absolutely useless, even in a scorched earth scenario.
[/quote] Incorrect. Though the CB tech is not likely to defeat the Reapers on its own, it may prove to be one of many necessary resources that cumulate to make the war winable.
[quote]
[quote]No advantage or enhacement you can get is uselss.[/quote]
Except that that's exactly the problem. It's definitely  not an advantage (against the Reapers, at least), and it doesn't enhance the situation in the slightest.

Any argument behind saving the base is based on "Well, we may have absolutely no proof that the Base is useful, but it may  give us an advantage against the Reapers."

Guess what, it can't. Even in the most optimistic and badly written scenario you still don't have the slightest advantage over the Reapers. You could have, if it actually gave you the power of the entire Reaper fleet, but you would have to compete with the Reapers' strategy and greater intelligence.

So, in short, under no circumstances, can the base help you defeat the Reapers.
If you do however save the world without it, which you will, or else we wouldn't have ME3, you have an illegal group with what could be the greatest WMD in history. And guess what[/quote] Again, invalid logic for the same reasons. The technology to make a shaped charge would not have been enough to defeat the Axis powers in ww2, but it was a technology that was necessary, when combined with a vast number of other technologies, to achieve success. Your entire point on this topic is invalid, Phaedon.
[quote][quote]How is having more pwoerfull weapons NOT redicing the gap?[/quote]
Because they are still just as useless. Just because you switched from a wooden slingshot to a metallic one and you are firing against a tank, doesn't make it useful at all. I mean, think.[/quote] Again, you repeat this same invalid point. The CB has not be portrayed as an end-all solution, but one more asset to use against the Reapers, and is more akin to using a shaped charge against a tank when compared to throwing a grenade at it. Both have proven the potential to disable a tank, but one is noticably superior for the stated goal, even if you can't take out an entire tank batalion with a single RPG squad.

[quote][quote]How does having more powerful lweapons equal NOT being able to hurt the reapers???[/quote]
Because you can't harm the Reaper fleet. It's uh, duh.

Whether you could rally a fleet to actually take down a single Reaper is very debatable, the possibility causing harm against entire fleets is not worthy of discussion.[/quote] Again, incorrect, for above stated reasons.



[quote][quote]The reapers aren't unkillable. Tough, yes. But you CAN kill them with weapons less advanced than theirs.
It has bene done before.

I'm sorry, but this argument is utterly absurd.
Please stop while I still respect you....[/quote]
Except that it hasn't.

Sovereign wasn't taken down until after his shields malfunctioned.

The Derelict Reaper suffered a blow from an entire race's only superweapon and didn't die. It wa[/quote] And Sovereign's shields malfunctioned due to being overloaded with firepower. As previously stated, I am one of those that follows the belief that the robo-Saren destruction happening at about the same time as Sovereign's shields going down is more dramatic coincidence than a cause-effect relationship.

The Derelict Reaper was disabled and unable to continue fighting. That is all that we need to achieve to beat them.

[quote]
The Base is irrelevant as a weapon against the Reapers and this is why."

The best that Cerberus can produce out of the base is a single Reaper against thousands, and even that is extremely debatable.
[/quote] Or advanced weaponry that can be retrofitted and serve to increase the overall firepower of the Alliance fleet(IE: Thanix cannon), or information on the nature of, and therefore how to counter Indoctrination.

[quote]5) Develop a plan to get the Reapers to use avatars, in order to overwhelm them like in ME1. In theory, you could use the Retribution implants for non-organic structures, which would spam the Reapers' processing units with information, and well, even with a self-destruct mechanism if that's enough to startle the Reapers.[/quote] I do not accept your premise that the destruction of avatars would necessarily cripple the Reapers' systems, especially once they figured out what what you were attempting to do. Evidence that avatar destruction causes major problems for Reapers is circumstatial at best.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

On the countrary, I postulate taht the HR is MORE advanced than Sovereign, because it's new. Sovereign is a desing that's hunderds of thousands yers old. Reapers are supposed to learn some new tricks over time too, and thus the new design is therefore more advanced!

Prove me wrong on that if you can...

Gladly.

The weapon that took out the Reaper with one round and created the Great Rift on Klendagon. It did more damage than the whole Citadel fleet did.

And the Citadel fleet was more than likely newer than Sovereign, but the ships were sure as hell not more advanced than him.

Just because it's newer doesn't mean it's better. 

For one who's constantly bragging about logic, you sure are lacking it. 

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 30 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
This is complte nonsese...
[/quote]

Well thought out argument and excellent rebuttal right here, guys.

[quote]How would you know?
What are you saiyng now is an utter AFFRONT to logic and reason.

You're talling me that needing 5 ships to kil la reaper instead of 10 DOESN'T enhance the situation AT ALL?
This is fallacy....[/quote]
It's not at all.

5 ships? 10 ships? Pretty sure you are talking about 1 major fleet vs 2 major fleets.

This is what can come out of the base:

Reaper IFF - Useless, it's a replicatable signal. Already done.

Collector Pods - Just as useless, you can't exactly harvest husks.

Reaper Internal GARDIAN defences - Extremely useless. A few occuli have similar firepower, let alone a conventional ship.

Reaper Lavra Exoskeleton - Again, useless. Doesn't show any actual weaknesses, because in the end it would be placed within the actual Reaper.

AI CPU - Should it not have been destroyed after it fell, the radioactive thing would have caused interference and as it is one of the most sophisticated parts of the Reaper (should the actual CPU even be there), it would require much more advanced (Billion years tech level) technolodgy to be reverse engineered, and even so, it is of no particular use. 

Husk Creation Plant - For Scions, etc.



[quote]What WMD? I have no idea what weapon you're talkign about here, because nothing is even hinted.

And again, I'll point you to the fact that Cerberus is too small to be of any use other than research and intel gathering.[/quote]
They, uh, are the 40% of the enemies that you meet in ME3.


[quote]Tehy getting super-cannons doesn't help them take over the universe, becasue they CAN'T.
They don't have a navy. They don't have tens of millions of troops which would be necessary to take and hold.[/quote]
BS. TIM is a billionaire and they could very well develop multiple attack cells. He could easily build an army, which he does in ME3. The CB is producing husks and Scions, giving a wanted terrorist organization with billions of credits ammunition that is only harmful against your allies is downright retarded.

[quote]And TIM certanly isn't insane enough to go to war with the rest of the universe.[/quote]
Uh-huh, he definitely doesn't go against Shepard.

And he never went the Hierarchy. Or the Alliance.

Even if you consider that metagaming and haven't read a single codex entry, it's a known fact that Cerberus is a wanted organization. They will use any means to resist arrest. Stop acting as if they'll just surrender peacefully.

[quote]And b.t.w - evne if by some super-fantasy magic Cerberus coudl get some super WMD, the galaxy and sentient races of the universe would still survive. STILL a far better scenario than  the reaper victory.[/quote]
Uh, not necessarily all of them, and not in an equal position, not according to TIMmy. His motto is human domination throughout the game, are you kidding me?




[quote]What?[/quote]
Yes, another excellent rebuttal.

Most of the times when someone says "Watch X and then we'll talk", you watch "X".




[quote]Except your comparison is flawed. Reapers can be killed even with current weapons. Difficult, but can be done.[/quote]
Source.

Don't bother searching one, you have none. Sovereign required two major fleets to be taken down, and they failed until Sovereign's shields were taken down by Shepard. 

If two major fleets against a single ship is not a wooden slingshot against a tank, I have no idea what is.

And that's not even accurate, because the two fleets DIDN'T take Sovereign down.

[quote]So it would be like insted of attacking a elephant with a handgun, you attack it with a rifle.
It IS usefull.[/quote]
Except that you have had two rifle companies fail to take down a single elephant in the first time, and you want them to do it again, against thousands of elephants, due to a new scope.




[quote]We don't know the details about Sovereign. You can't go on and tell me it's invulnerable. We're not even entirely sure what caused it's shield to drop. [/quote]
We know very well what caused the shield to drop. He focused significant power on Saren's avatar, resisted taking multiple hits in the meantime, but you didn't have his shields drop until the exact moment that he lost control of Saren's avatar, forcefully at that. In fact, Sovereign had already started to fall before the fleet moved in.





[quote]1) BS. the onyl thing Cerberus cna do is attack you? You're being as unbiased as natzi judge on a jew trial.
(Yes, a Godwin. I don't care)[/quote]
1) TIM wouldn't give anyone a trial, unfair or not. And I have proved why you are incapable of causing harm to the Reaper fleets.

[quote]2) how does that help you?[/quote]
Because it could potentially lead to their homeworld.

[quote]3) Didn't you jsut say that all allies combined, evne with enhanced reaper tech can't do s***. How it gathering them Without advanced tech better?[/quote]
"3) Gather allies and listen to their suggestions, work with them for maximum efficiency." 



[QUOTE]4) Except that your miracle super-plan wouldn't work. It's funny you think you can come up with a reaper-killign super weapon, yet at the same time think that scientists working o nthe CB can't come up with anything....[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know that you make excellent rebuttals, but would you try justifying why not?

Cerberus scientists are some of the worst professionals I have read about ever. Their constant random casualties and the fact that one of their top scientists doesn't figure out what the effects of lack of sleep are to the human brain are evidence enough.

[quote]5) How? Do you think you cna FORCE reapers into avatars at will?[/quote]
Force? No, not necessarily. Give them an incentive, and then slap them with it.

Oh, and as for the connection they have with implanted victims, unless they stop sending and receiving all signals, I don't see how else it wouldn't work.

[quote]6) Prothens were elimanted. Evidently their tech wasn't good enough.[/quote]
The Protheans were eliminated because they didn't have chance to react, if the SB planned to save his own ass with it, it must have some base.

[quote]So if researching reper tech at the CB (which is better than prothean tech) is useless (your own words),[/quote]
Utter BS as usual. The "Reaper tech" hardly existed in the CB, looking at the state of the HR. That doesn't offer anything useful.

Prothean devices and their tech is unknown of course.

[quote]how coudl this be possibly of any use? If anything is evern more useless.......
:huh::huh::huh::huh:
[/quote]
Sure, here you go. Manipulation of the Mass Relays to use relativistic projectiles as WMDs. Why should the Protheans not have developed that?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

On the countrary, I postulate taht the HR is MORE advanced than Sovereign, because it's new. Sovereign is a desing that's hunderds of thousands yers old. Reapers are supposed to learn some new tricks over time too, and thus the new design is therefore more advanced!

Prove me wrong on that if you can...

Gladly.

The weapon that took out the Reaper with one round and created the Great Rift on Klendagon. It did more damage than the whole Citadel fleet did.

Just because it's newer doesn't mean it's better. 

For one who's constantly bragging about logic, you sure are lacking it. 

:D:D:D:D:D

Don't make me laugh! Really? That is your argument?

Older in reagrds to who made it, Doc! You honestly don't understand how this works.?

that weapon was probably the newest and most advanced weapon OF THAT RACE.
The newest ships and weapons OF ThE HUMANS are better than the older ones OF THE HUMANS. That is true.

Reapers learn just as any other sentient race.
So their newer ships OF THE REAPERS should incorporate things they learend in the last several cycles, and thus be even more advanced then the older ship OF THE REPAERS.

Really...comparing completely different races that had n ocontact and caliming it's an argument....bwahahahahaha:lol::lol:

You have no idea how bad you jsut made yourself look...

[Phaedon]

[quote]SandTrout wrote...
 Incorrect. Though the CB tech is not likely to defeat the Reapers on its own, it may prove to be one of many necessary resources that cumulate to make the war winable.[/quote]
No, no, it's not just unlikely, it's impossible. And go ahead and state which part of the base could possibly help defeat the Reapers.



[quote]Again, invalid logic for the same reasons.[/quote]
You didn't have a reason in the first place, just a theoretical "what if", backed up by absolutely nothing. Me saying that using the Moon's core will defeat the Reapers is just as valid.


[quote]The technology to make a shaped charge would not have been enough to defeat the Axis powers in ww2, but it was a technology that was necessary, when combined with a vast number of other technologies, to achieve success. Your entire point on this topic is invalid, Phaedon.[/quote]
Except that the success with conventional tech against the Axis was perfectly possible. Maybe not probable. But definitely possible. And you are forgetting the fact that the Axis developed their tech at the same time as the Allies for the most part.

At no point before has the defeat of entire Reaper fleets been possible or done, and unless you suggest that any item in the CB can lead to something better than thousands of Reapers who are products of billions of years of technolodgy, your argument is invalid, simply because it doesn't exist. At all.

You are stating "But it may help." providing no arguments to support that claim, and not even a hypothesis as to why.

And again, that's just as valid as saying "Hey, if we paint the Mako pink, it may help."


[/quote][quote]Again, you repeat this same invalid point. The CB has not be portrayed as an end-all solution, but one more asset to use against the Reapers, and is more akin to using a shaped charge against a tank when compared to throwing a grenade at it. Both have proven the potential to disable a tank, but one is noticably superior for the stated goal, even if you can't take out an entire tank batalion with a single RPG squad.[/quote]And again, you are not saying "why".

It may be used against the Reapers? What can possibly be used in there against the Reapers? That's absurd. 

What's your argument exactly? Stating your opinion doesn't prove anything, while I have explained why it can't cause any damage towards the Reapers. Arguably, Sovereign's remains were infinitely more valuable, because they contained its armor and its main weapon.
[quote]Again, incorrect, for above stated reasons.[/quote]No, you never said that it's incorrect. You stated that it is potentially incorrect, and you stated your opinion as a reason. You have no argument yet.


[quote]And Sovereign's shields malfunctioned due to being overloaded with firepower.[/quote]

...nope? 

Did you guys even play the game?



[quote]As previously stated, I am one of those that follows the belief that the robo-Saren destruction happening at about the same time as Sovereign's shields going down is more dramatic coincidence than a cause-effect relationship.[/quote]
Yes, and obviously failing shields obviously make Reapers to fall as well.... Let's see you explain that. Let me guess, dramatic coincidence as well?

[quote]The Derelict Reaper was disabled and unable to continue fighting. That is all that we need to achieve to beat them.[/quote]
...definitely not.

Disabling (maybe temporarily since there is no evidence that it was beyond repair) a single Reaper by using our only superweapon si definitely, definitely, not our goal.

[quote]Or advanced weaponry that can be retrofitted and serve to increase the overall firepower of the Alliance fleet(IE: Thanix cannon), or information on the nature of, and therefore how to counter Indoctrination.[/quote]
First off, I am tired of people not understanding what the Thanix does or the fact that the HR had no main weapons attached. 

Secondly, explain how we can understand indoctrination. Read a book about it? There is already a codex entry on it.

[quote]I do not accept your premise that the destruction of avatars would necessarily cripple the Reapers' systems, especially once they figured out what what you were attempting to do. Evidence that avatar destruction causes major problems for Reapers is circumstatial at best.[/quote]Uh, I'd say it's definite because everyone says that Shepard defeated Sovereign, and we actually see that happen. And it is addressed in my exact previous post anyway.

[Phaedon]

Hah,

watch it yourselves:

05:32

Apparently no ship was around when Sovereign started falling and had his shields go down.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And so the topic of "den of delusions -- the new morality discussion topic" goes down in flames.

[Phaedon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
:D:D:D:D:D

Don't make me laugh! Really? That is your argument?

Older in reagrds to who made it, Doc! You honestly don't understand how this works.?

that weapon was probably the newest and most advanced weapon OF THAT RACE.
The newest ships and weapons OF ThE HUMANS are better than the older ones OF THE HUMANS. That is true.

Reapers learn just as any other sentient race.
So their newer ships OF THE REAPERS should incorporate things they learend in the last several cycles, and thus be even more advanced then the older ship OF THE REPAERS.

Really...comparing completely different races that had n ocontact and caliming it's an argument....bwahahahahaha:lol::lol:

You have no idea how bad you jsut made yourself look...

Like a douchebag? I am sure you would know.

I'll let Something With Mass contradict you, but let me express my deepest excitement to the fact that creatures can learn while having zero interaction with their enviroment what-so-ever.

Or unfinished Lavras  with 1/18th of the size of the actual thing, with no main weapons or armor that somehow carry more, and especially more advanced technolodgy.

Sounds cool.

[SandTrout]

Why the hell are so many normally decent posters ignoring logic and reason lately?

How could the CB aid us?

BY PROVIDING BETTER ****ING WEAPONS!

The Thanix is an example of retrofitting superior weapons, which we know that the Collectors have, completely separate from what was or wasn't on the Human Reaper.

Why did the shields fail?

BECAUSE THEY WERE GETTING HIT BY A ****ING FLEET'S WORTH OF SUSTAINED FIRE!

The fact that Sovereign's shields dropped at the same time as defeating Robo-Saren is to consolidate the climax of the story, and does not prove in and of itself any cause-effect relationship.

How do we learn about Indoctrination?

BY STUDYING THE ****ING SOURCE!

There is a 'dead' Reaper larva in the CB. Reapers and their artifacts are the source of Indoctrination, therefore studying a Reaper may lead to comprehension of Indoctrination. It's a pretty simple concept to research the source of something you want to understand.

I am fully aware that keeping the CB brings no guarantees, and I personally do not consider it a worthwhile gamble, but your points are devoid of logic and reason, replaced by dogma that you are absolutely correct that keeping the CB is a bad decision, using logic that is just outright WRONG.

[Someone With Mass]

Protip: If you want me to ever take you seriously, Lotion, stop overusing smileys like some twelve year old that just found out about chat rooms.

And if you mean something else than you've written in your comments, feel free to write it down instead of coming up with it later and pretend you know better just because you can't word your opinion correctly.

[Phaedon]

SandTrout wrote...

Why the hell are so many normally decent posters ignoring logic and reason lately?

How could the CB aid us?

BY PROVIDING BETTER ****ING WEAPONS!

The Thanix is an example of retrofitting superior weapons, which we know that the Collectors have, completely separate from what was or wasn't on the Human Reaper.

1) The HR doesn't carry a main weapon, and they were obviously building him part to part seeing as they are in the lavra state still due to the abductions not being over.

2) The Thanix canon does sh*t againt a single Reaper, let alone several. Forget it already. Read the Codex, it's not that difficult, the Thanix is not that impressive.

Why did the shields fail?

BECAUSE THEY WERE GETTING HIT BY A ****ING FLEET'S WORTH OF SUSTAINED FIRE!

The fact that Sovereign's shields dropped at the same time as defeating Robo-Saren is to consolidate the climax of the story, and does not prove in and of itself any cause-effect relationship.

Nope. At that time, no ship was in the area, you can see it in the video. Not a single shot was fired towards that direction. Try again.

How do we learn about Indoctrination?

BY STUDYING THE ****ING SOURCE!

Not according to magnets.

There is a codex entry about indoctrination by the way.

There is a 'dead' Reaper larva in the CB. Reapers and their artifacts are the source of Indoctrination, therefore studying a Reaper may lead to comprehension of Indoctrination. It's a pretty simple concept to research the source of something you want to understand.

I am fully aware that keeping the CB brings no guarantees, and I personally do not consider it a worthwhile gamble, but your points are devoid of logic and reason, replaced by dogma that you are absolutely correct that keeping the CB is a bad decision, using logic that is just outright WRONG.

Absolutely not.

Should the HR still be alive, which could be likely I suppose, you would get indoctrinated, end of story.

Should the HR still be alive, it would also not have responded very well to the radioactive explosion.

Should the HR be dead, you would have to study the most sophisticated part of a Reaper (billions of years of tech ahead of us), and not it's product. The Protheans were hardly able to reverse engineer a mini Mass Relay, are you implying that a Reaper "brain" is less complicated?

Oh and you have a few months to comprehend that completely alien technolodgy, no rush.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 juillet 2011 - 10:21 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
This is complte nonsese...
[/quote]

Well thought out argument and excellent rebuttal right here, guys.[/quote]

Excuse me, but it leaft me completey speachless...


[quote]
[quote]How would you know?
What are you saiyng now is an utter AFFRONT to logic and reason.

You're talling me that needing 5 ships to kil la reaper instead of 10 DOESN'T enhance the situation AT ALL?
This is fallacy....[/quote]

It's not at all.

5 ships? 10 ships? Pretty sure you are talking about 1 major fleet vs 2 major fleets.[/quote]

I'm talking about a kill ratio, and fail to see how what you said makes any difference to the argument.

Even an improvement of 1% is STILL an improvement, therefore it is an ehancement.
You're looking at this in a binary 1/0 fashion.




[quote]
This is what can come out of the base:[/quote]

And you know that how?
How about more powerfull kinetic barreier? Enhanced power generati0on? More efficient power conduits? Transistors? Emitters? Batteries?

You're so overlooking what technology encompases and how it is developed.....



[quote]
[quote]What WMD? I have no idea what weapon you're talkign about here, because nothing is even hinted.

And again, I'll point you to the fact that Cerberus is too small to be of any use other than research and intel gathering.[/quote]
They, uh, are the 40% of the enemies that you meet in ME3.[/quote]

1) Gameplay and story segragation

2) They're still only troopers. A thousands of them. How does that compare to BILLIONS of tropps the other races have? and far more important, their NAVIES?

Please, tell me how do you expect Cerberus to take over the galaxy? With what navy? With what troops? Who will supply them?
Cerberus couldn't take and hold a single planet, let alone anything else!


[quote]
[quote]Tehy getting super-cannons doesn't help them take over the universe, becasue they CAN'T.
They don't have a navy. They don't have tens of millions of troops which would be necessary to take and hold.[/quote]
BS. TIM is a billionaire and they could very well develop multiple attack cells. He could easily build an army, which he does in ME3. The CB is producing husks and Scions, giving a wanted terrorist organization with billions of credits ammunition that is only harmful against your allies is downright retarded.[/quote]

1) Tim is ****** poor comparted to the nations he's supposed to assault.

2) I recall no husks and scions production facilites on the base.

3) You cannot build an army easily, especially not out of thin air. They need training, equipment, supplies. You also need a sufficient number of recruits - somthing Cerberus certnaly lacks, being that it's a shadowy organization and all. A massive army is also something you cannot hide.

The bigges crutch of Cerberus is LOGISTICS. Look it up.

4) Only harmfull agaisnt your allies? BS. Cerberus is pho-human, not anti-alien. And ,ins't the Alliance your ally too? Doesn't Cerberus do everythnig to strengthen humanity?

5) Cerberus has no navy. Space superiority. All the army in the world is useless if you can't deploy it.

6) CB's location is known to Shep. And it's static base that doesn't move. Any action agasint the allies by TIM and he'll have a fleet knocking on the front door, blowing it to smitherenes.

Want me to go on?




[quote]
[quote]And TIM certanly isn't insane enough to go to war with the rest of the universe.[/quote]
Uh-huh, he definitely doesn't go against Shepard.

And he never went the Hierarchy. Or the Alliance.

Even if you consider that metagaming and haven't read a single codex entry, it's a known fact that Cerberus is a wanted organization. They will use any means to resist arrest. Stop acting as if they'll just surrender peacefully.[/quote]


Going to war is quite different than resisting arrest. You calimed Cerberus would take over the galaxy...
Not ot mention, if they help defeat the reapers, would they still be a wanted organization?



[quote]
[quote]And b.t.w- evne if by some super-fantasy magic Cerberus coudl get some super WMD, the galaxy and sentient races of the universe would still survive. STILL a far better scenario than  the reaper victory.[/quote]
Uh, not necessarily all of them, and not in an equal position, not according to TIMmy. His motto is human domination throughout the game, are you kidding me?[/quote]

Do you know what domination means? Open the friggin dictionary!!!!
It's NOT what you think it is.

Where the hell did you get the insane idea that Cerberus wishes to kill off alien races? From Miranda? Jacob? Kelly? Nope, everything they say indicates the opposite.
TIM? He deosn't say anything like that.




[quote]
[quote]What?[/quote]
Yes, another excellent rebuttal.

Most of the times when someone says "Watch X and then we'll talk", you watch "X".[/quote]

No, I mena I can't make sense of your sentance. It makes no sense gramaticyl...I can't parse it. You must have made a huge typo or something. Please repeat.




[quote]
[quote]Except your comparison is flawed. Reapers can be killed even with current weapons. Difficult, but can be done.[/quote]
Source.

Don't bother searching one, you have none. Sovereign required two major fleets to be taken down, and they failed until Sovereign's shields were taken down by Shepard. [/quote]

Those ships are armed with standard wepons. Sovreign was attacked by a bunch of cruisers b.t.w.. The only DN, the Destiny Ascension, was out of battle.

Not to metnion that the derelict reaper was hit with a MASS DRIVER. the same weapon every other ship uses. Only a lot bigger. Same principle. Death by a massive blow, or death from a thousand cuts - doesn't matter if youre dead.

And no, there is no direct correlation between Shepaprd and shields dropping.




[quote]
[quote]We don't know the details about Sovereign. You can't go on and tell me it's invulnerable. We're not even entirely sure what caused it's shield to drop. [/quote]
We know very well what caused the shield to drop. He focused significant power on Saren's avatar, resisted taking multiple hits in the meantime, but you didn't have his shields drop until the exact moment that he lost control of Saren's avatar, forcefully at that. In fact, Sovereign had already started to fall before the fleet moved in.[/quote]

If Sovereign lost his shields due to loosing control of an avatar, then the repaers are the most pitiful opponent in history.

You're telling me thrri super-huge and super-advanced minds flipped out over that? My 10-year old PC could handle multi-tasking better!




[quote]
[quote]1) BS. the onyl thing Cerberus cna do is attack you? You're being as unbiased as natzi judge on a jew trial.
(Yes, a Godwin. I don't care)[/quote]
1) TIM wouldn't give anyone a trial, unfair or not. And I have proved why you are incapable of causing harm to the Reaper fleets.[/quote]

And I have provided why you're incorrect.
And what's with all teh TIM hate? My boy, if your'e tring to convince me you're unbiased - YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.


[quote]
[quote]2) how does that help you?[/quote]
Because it could potentially lead to their homeworld.[/quote]


Useless if you can't hurth them. Do they even have a homeworld? Would they even care?


[quote]
[quote]3) Didn't you jsut say that all allies combined, evne with enhanced reaper tech can't do s***. How it gathering them Without advanced tech better?[/quote]
"3) Gather allies and listen to their suggestions, work with them for maximum efficiency." [/quote]

Useless. By your own argument, you can't hurt them.



[quote]
[quote]4) Except that your miracle super-plan wouldn't work. It's funny you think you can come up with a reaper-killign super weapon, yet at the same time think that scientists working o nthe CB can't come up with anything....[/quote]
Yes, I know that you make excellent rebuttals, but would you try justifying why not?

Cerberus scientists are some of the worst professionals I have read about ever. Their constant random casualties and the fact that one of their top scientists doesn't figure out what the effects of lack of sleep are to the human brain are evidence enough.[/quote]

They do very dangerous and risky reasearch. If you have proof other scientist would do better....please, forward it.

adn why not? Because tehy would shoot down your bomb. Because their armor could handle it. Becasue they are invulneralbe to anyting except to a weapon I deem should hurt them. (don't blame me, just following your logic here)



[quote]
[quote]5) How? Do you think you cna FORCE reapers into avatars at will?[/quote]
Force? No, not necessarily. Give them an incentive, and then slap them with it.

Oh, and as for the connection they have with implanted victims, unless they stop sending and receiving all signals, I don't see how else it wouldn't work.[/quote]

And you honestly think they'd be stupid enough to bite? That it would have any effect at all? That they have any need at ALL to even use avatars, once they are already there, wrecking your **** in person?


[quote]
[quote]6) Prothens were elimanted. Evidently their tech wasn't good enough.[/quote]
The Protheans were eliminated because they didn't have chance to react, if the SB planned to save his own ass with it, it must have some base.[/quote]

TIM planned to save humanity with the CB. Thus it must have some base?
Silly argument.

Not to mention that you 'd first have to find it and then research it..whatever it is. Which would cost you a lot mor time than jsut researching the CB..it's already there, you found it. no time wasted searching.
Adn it would still have better tech...


[quote]
[quote]So if researching reper tech at the CB (which is better than prothean tech) is useless (your own words),[/quote]
Utter BS as usual. The "Reaper tech" hardly existed in the CB, looking at the state of the HR. That doesn't offer anything useful.

Prothean devices and their tech is unknown of course.[/quote]

Dear Lord...the ignorance is HURTING ME!

How the hell do you come to the conclusio nthere tehre is no reaper tech in the CB, when there is a reaper being built there? What's it being built with? Vacuum?

How do you build repear tech without reaper tech???? Please, answer me this logic bomb!



[quote]
[quote]how coudl this be possibly of any use? If anything is evern more useless.......
:huh::huh::huh::huh:
[/quote]
Sure, here you go. Manipulation of the Mass Relays to use relativistic projectiles as WMDs. Why should the Protheans not have developed that?
[/quote]

Why do you assume they have?
And why do you assume tehy have better mass relay manipulation tech then the Reapers, the reace that BUILT THEM????

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 30 juillet 2011 - 10:24 .

[Someone With Mass]

The Thanix is better than any Collector weapon, since it can use massive amounts of heat to literally burn away the shield emitters on ships and pierce it with the projectile at the same time.

Not to mention that the thing is small enough to be mounted on fighters.

And if you need something bigger, just scale it up.

[Ultai]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The path laid out by the Reapers is MASS RELAYS.

If races become dependent on them for FTL, then the reapers can close the network down and isolate the races.

Us looking into Sovereigns remains and the base is NOT what they had planned or wanted.

Agreed.  The "path" they want us on I don't think involves us having access to their creation methods, how indoctrination works and how to counter/resist it, reverse engineering their tech to create EDI and creating a weapon like the thanix to amp up our firepower etc etc.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

1) Gameplay and story segragation

2) They're still only troopers. A thousands of them. How does that compare to BILLIONS of tropps the other races have? and far more important, their NAVIES?

Please, tell me how do you expect Cerberus to take over the galaxy? With what navy? With what troops? Who will supply them?
Cerberus couldn't take and hold a single planet, let alone anything else!

When are you going to learn that Cerberus isn't fighting its problems head on like normal military factions do?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Still going strong eh?