3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Sebby]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I guess you'll believe whatever you have to if it means justifying blowing up the Collector base.

The in-game rational for destroying the CB and saving the council are so weaksauce that people have to invent reasons and do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify them.

[Zulu_DFA]

Seboist wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I guess you'll believe whatever you have to if it means justifying blowing up the Collector base.

The in-game rational for destroying the CB and saving the council are so weaksauce that people have to invent reasons and do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify them.

No, I think they just metagame the whole thing. It's easier.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sisterofshane wrote...
What I'm saying people, is that we need MORE reasons for the Council species to place faith in us and protect us(at least help by standing with us), not LESS.  Despite what happens at the end of ME (saving the DA or letting it be destroyed), we know that the other races just don't trust us quite as thoroughly as they trust each other.

At the same time, having the Collector Base could *increase* our leverage. If the others see we are completely hopeless, I do not see them wasting their forces on us anyways. If they see we have a chance, say if the CB does offer us very valuable advantages, and if we have info to share (of course I would not share everything), then we might increase their confidence in us.

The USSR certainly did not turn on the US or stopped being allies when the atomic bomb was revealed and used. Instead it declared war on Japan quickly to secure as much influence as possible, and sought to steal the info.
All allies will seek to undermine each other anyways, with or without CB. Indeed the Turians illegally and secretly reverse engineered some Reaper tech in their own arm race.  

That is assuming that they would find out about the base in the first place, or at least know what it is. They certainly will have difficulty accessing it.

In summary, If the other species see that humanity possesses enough info / tech to be invaluable to their own survival, I do not see them abandonning us (undermining us enough for post-reaper galaxy, yes). If they see we are useless and hopeless, I do not see them helping us, CB or no.

[SandTrout]

Christ, the galaxy is a lot dumber than I thought if you people are to be believed.

Cerberus gets more appealing every day.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you there, but those idiots might be necessary.

[Ieldra]

Sisterofshane wrote...
If the roles were reversed, I wonder how many people here would give the CB to the Turians, or the Volus, or the Batarians, based upon the mere fact that it might increase our chance of survival in the upcoming Reaper Invasion.

I would. I have repeatedly said it is my primary objective that the base stays intact to be studied. Who does it - that's secondary in the face of the Reaper attack. Admittedly the batarians would be a bitter pill to swallow - but I'd still do it, and I'm not exactly a fan of Cerberus either.

And like I said before, I know that it will provide something.  But I am banking on the fact that I am going to need Galactic Cooperation with Humanity MORE then I will need any kind of information that we Find on the CB, assuming that there was no "magic off switch" contained there, which we all know was still very highly unlikely.

I think the important part is that we don't have the faintest idea of how to defeat the Reapers. As evidenced by the one battle we had, any level of galactic cooperation won't prevent one Reaper from eating up several fleets before it is brought down - if it ever is.

The reason why I am so insistent on this is that at this point, it appears that the Reapers will not be defeated by a military effort of any size, without a significant upgrade in either information or technology. You say that upgrade in information and technology will not be sufficient without galactic co-operation, I say that galactic co-operation will not be sufficient without that upgrade. I believe I have enough evidence for that from the battle against Sovereign, and if not *every* species jumps in, we'll be able to live with that.

I think you are under the mistaken impression that every single species will suddenly refuse to work with humans just because we gave Cerberus the base. That would be incredibly short-sighted, knowing that humans (assuming Shepard gave the information EDI downloaded from the base to the Alliance) and Cerberus are the factions most knowledgeable about the Reapers at this point.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 août 2011 - 09:07 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Ugh,I love how everyone uses TBoTC to show the reapers are gods,just because strategy A didn't work doesn't mean b-z are all going to be busts(not that we have a plan.)

[Sisterofshane]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus doesn't even come off as being worse than the Blue Suns,Blood Pack or Eclipse on a galactic scale. Hell, ME1 Cerberus is a mickey mouse outfit compared to the description we get of those three groups in ME2.

Yeah, they were kind of "expanded" unrealistically in the second game, but to say that the illusive man is not capable of WORSE things then mercenaries?  Um, look at what he did to Paul Grayson, the horrible things done to biotic children in his organization's name that he ignored (you can't TELL me that someone as smart, and well-informed as the illusive man didn't at least have an IDEA of what they were doing at the Teltin Facility), or the fact that he employs people like Kai Leng to extremely high up and important positions within the game (face to face contact with TIM I think is the highest a person can go in Cerberus)... and these were just to humans.

You can't tell me that he wouldn't view the other species as being less expendable then humans if it manages to further his "cause".

[SandTrout]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yeah, they were kind of "expanded" unrealistically in the second game, but to say that the illusive man is not capable of WORSE things then mercenaries?  Um, look at what he did to Paul Grayson, the horrible things done to biotic children in his organization's name that he ignored (you can't TELL me that someone as smart, and well-informed as the illusive man didn't at least have an IDEA of what they were doing at the Teltin Facility), or the fact that he employs people like Kai Leng to extremely high up and important positions within the game (face to face contact with TIM I think is the highest a person can go in Cerberus)... and these were just to humans.

You can't tell me that he wouldn't view the other species as being less expendable then humans if it manages to further his "cause".

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope, so it becomes difficult to compare them to people the the Blue Suns and Eclipse.

Cerberus has done terrible things to hundreds over the years, but some of the mercenary groups have done terrible things to hundreds of thousands over the years, and that's being conservative, IMO.

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Christ, the galaxy is a lot dumber than I thought if you people are to be believed.

Cerberus gets more appealing every day.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you there, but those idiots might be necessary.

Uh huh. However that base of Reaper technology? That couldn't possibly be necessary or strengthen our bargaining position.

Saphra, you really should shut up, you're not doing your side any favors here. I have been one of the vocal defenders of the valid reasoning behind keeping the base from the zealots on the Base Destroyers' side. I am simply pointing out that the effect on being able to recruit other species to rally against the Reapers is a valid concern, but by no means the only one.

Zealots like you do more damage to your own side than the opposing one.

[Sisterofshane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
If the roles were reversed, I wonder how many people here would give the CB to the Turians, or the Volus, or the Batarians, based upon the mere fact that it might increase our chance of survival in the upcoming Reaper Invasion.

I would. I have repeatedly said it is my primary objective that the base stays intact to be studied. Who does it - that's secondary in the face of the Reaper attack. Admittedly the batarians would be a bitter pill to swallow - but I'd still do it, and I'm not exactly a fan of Cerberus either.

And like I said before, I know that it will provide something.  But I am banking on the fact that I am going to need Galactic Cooperation with Humanity MORE then I will need any kind of information that we Find on the CB, assuming that there was no "magic off switch" contained there, which we all know was still very highly unlikely.

I think the important part is that we don't have the faintest idea of how to defeat the Reapers. As evidenced by the one battle we had, any level of galactic cooperation won't prevent one Reaper from eating up several fleets before it is brought down - if it ever is.

The reason why I am so insistent on this is that at this point, it appears that the Reapers will not be defeated by a military effort of any size, without a significant upgrade in either information or technology. You say that upgrade in information and technology will not be sufficient without galactic co-operation, I say that galactic co-operation will not be sufficient without that upgrade. I believe I have enough evidence for that from the battle against Sovereign, and if not *every* species jumps in, we'll be able to live with that.

I think you are under the mistaken impression that every single species will suddenly refuse to work with humans just because we gave Cerberus the base. That would be incredibly short-sighted, knowing that humans (assuming Shepard gave the information EDI downloaded from the base to the Alliance) and Cerberus are the factions most knowledgeable about the Reapers at this point.

To address your last point first, I think it is incredibly naive to assume that Cerberus is the foremost expert on the Reapers.  The council may not outwardly admit they exist, but you had well better bet that after facing down a ship as advanced as Sovereign, that they are in high gear trying to at least bring their own technology up to that level.  We know from all the media within the game universe (books, comics, games) that the Alliance has been looking into the Reaper threat.  We don't know to what extent, but we can reasonably assume that the other council races are, as well.

So, on the other point, we agree to disagree.  It's a matter of strategy (as in all wars), and it comes down to intelligence gathering vs. mobilization.  I think we can agree that one with out the other (Fleet without information, information without Fleet), would both potentially lose us the war.  Everything else in between is very much a "shade of grey", and dependent upon personal experiences and opinions on whether or not we favor one side (intelligence) or the other (mobilization).

[Zulu_DFA]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus doesn't even come off as being worse than the Blue Suns,Blood Pack or Eclipse on a galactic scale. Hell, ME1 Cerberus is a mickey mouse outfit compared to the description we get of those three groups in ME2.

Yeah, they were kind of "expanded" unrealistically in the second game, but to say that the illusive man is not capable of WORSE things then mercenaries?  Um, look at what he did to Paul Grayson, the horrible things done to biotic children in his organization's name that he ignored (you can't TELL me that someone as smart, and well-informed as the illusive man didn't at least have an IDEA of what they were doing at the Teltin Facility), or the fact that he employs people like Kai Leng to extremely high up and important positions within the game (face to face contact with TIM I think is the highest a person can go in Cerberus)... and these were just to humans.

You can't tell me that he wouldn't view the other species as being less expendable then humans if it manages to further his "cause".

Who do you think supplied all those biotic children for TIM's "death camp"? Noticed the Purgatory's logo on those containers at the Teltin entrance?

And the same paragoons who swore to put a bullet through TIM's skull would let Vido go over a few factory workers knowing that he'd screw up more lives by the next week's monday! They are ready to team up with Aria, who orderes to get human slaves to "keep the krogans busy" for the amusement of the general Afterlife's scum! I have to ask again: hypocritical much?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 août 2011 - 09:22 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope.

Overlord would have caused a technological apocolypse.


I think most of the resentment to Cerberus is alot of what you see are 90% failed experiments or seemingly pointless experiments,if they would have given more examples of Cerberus doing something 100% right,there would probably ease the choice of handing it over to them,instead you choose handing the keys over to cletus or just winging it without the chance of the good ole thorn in your side.


Also what base destroying zealots?

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 15 août 2011 - 09:18 .

[Sebby]

SandTrout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yeah, they were kind of "expanded" unrealistically in the second game, but to say that the illusive man is not capable of WORSE things then mercenaries?  Um, look at what he did to Paul Grayson, the horrible things done to biotic children in his organization's name that he ignored (you can't TELL me that someone as smart, and well-informed as the illusive man didn't at least have an IDEA of what they were doing at the Teltin Facility), or the fact that he employs people like Kai Leng to extremely high up and important positions within the game (face to face contact with TIM I think is the highest a person can go in Cerberus)... and these were just to humans.

You can't tell me that he wouldn't view the other species as being less expendable then humans if it manages to further his "cause".

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope, so it becomes difficult to compare them to people the the Blue Suns and Eclipse.

Cerberus has done terrible things to hundreds over the years, but some of the mercenary groups have done terrible things to hundreds of thousands over the years, and that's being conservative, IMO.

Yeah and these mercenery groups in some cases control entire planets with millions of people (Blue Sun run Zorya has over a 100 mil). The best Cerberus can muster are small space stations and bases scattered in the ass end of space.

You know this has me thinking, it would have been LOL funny to give the Collector Base to the Blood Pack.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yeah, they were kind of "expanded" unrealistically in the second game, but to say that the illusive man is not capable of WORSE things then mercenaries?  Um, look at what he did to Paul Grayson, the horrible things done to biotic children in his organization's name that he ignored (you can't TELL me that someone as smart, and well-informed as the illusive man didn't at least have an IDEA of what they were doing at the Teltin Facility), or the fact that he employs people like Kai Leng to extremely high up and important positions within the game (face to face contact with TIM I think is the highest a person can go in Cerberus)... and these were just to humans.

You can't tell me that he wouldn't view the other species as being less expendable then humans if it manages to further his "cause".

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope, so it becomes difficult to compare them to people the the Blue Suns and Eclipse.

Cerberus has done terrible things to hundreds over the years, but some of the mercenary groups have done terrible things to hundreds of thousands over the years, and that's being conservative, IMO.

Scale is important here, yes, but so is approach.  The Galaxy convientently turns a blind eye to many mercenary organizations.  Cerberus has decided  not to  hide "everyday" activities behind a more legitimate mercenary organization.  Cerberus core operations involve a good measure of stealth, and rightfully so, because I think they would take more flak then even the most corrupt mercanary groups in the galaxy. 

Also, Cerberus fights for an ideal "the betterment of humanity", whereas merc groups primary concern is money.  IMO, Cerberus has to potential of doing much more harm, because they believe that what they are doing is "good".

[Sisterofshane]

Seboist wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yeah, they were kind of "expanded" unrealistically in the second game, but to say that the illusive man is not capable of WORSE things then mercenaries?  Um, look at what he did to Paul Grayson, the horrible things done to biotic children in his organization's name that he ignored (you can't TELL me that someone as smart, and well-informed as the illusive man didn't at least have an IDEA of what they were doing at the Teltin Facility), or the fact that he employs people like Kai Leng to extremely high up and important positions within the game (face to face contact with TIM I think is the highest a person can go in Cerberus)... and these were just to humans.

You can't tell me that he wouldn't view the other species as being less expendable then humans if it manages to further his "cause".

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope, so it becomes difficult to compare them to people the the Blue Suns and Eclipse.

Cerberus has done terrible things to hundreds over the years, but some of the mercenary groups have done terrible things to hundreds of thousands over the years, and that's being conservative, IMO.

Yeah and these mercenery groups in some cases control entire planets with millions of people (Blue Sun run Zorya has over a 100 mil). The best Cerberus can muster are small space stations and bases scattered in the ass end of space.

You know this has me thinking, it would have been LOL funny to give the Collector Base to the Blood Pack.

LOL, you vorcha sympathizer you!  Don't think I've heard of any vorcha scientists or engineers...

"Gahhh, we have base!  We study!  Find plan!  We Destroy Reaper!"

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Seboist wrote...

You know this has me thinking, it would have been LOL funny to give the Collector Base to the Blood Pack.

*in shisk voice* I PRESS BUT-ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL....is this a Vorcha? what the....

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 15 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[ddv.rsa]

Sisterofshane wrote...

 The council may not outwardly admit they exist, but you had well better bet that after facing down a ship as advanced as Sovereign, that they are in high gear trying to at least bring their own technology up to that level.

Seriously? In complete privacy, the Council tells Shepard that the Reapers do not exist. Even Anderson. How serious can their efforts be if even Shepard, Anderson and Udina (one a Councilor themselves) aren't aware of them?

No, I think it's more likely they have their heads in the sand. Individuals and agencies from the various alien governments may take initiative (like the turians salvaging Sovereign), but the Council itself is blind to the threat.

[Sisterofshane]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope.

Overlord would have caused a technological apocolypse.


I think most of the resentment to Cerberus is alot of what you see are 90% failed experiments or seemingly pointless experiments,if they would have given more examples of Cerberus doing something 100% right,there would probably ease the choice of handing it over to them,instead you choose handing the keys over to cletus or just winging it without the chance of the good ole thorn in your side.


Also what base destroying zealots?

He means the people who want to blow up the base out of fear.  You know, the "researching is hopeless, this is what the reapers wanted, TIM is eeeebbbbiiilllll" kind of crowd.

[SandTrout]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope.

Overlord would have caused a technological apocolypse.


I think most of the resentment to Cerberus is alot of what you see are 90% failed experiments or seemingly pointless experiments,if they would have given more examples of Cerberus doing something 100% right,there would probably ease the choice of handing it over to them,instead you choose handing the keys over to cletus or just winging it without the chance of the good ole thorn in your side.

Competence is a completely separate, issue. Cerberus would not have willfully caused the technological apocalyspe so much as neglegently caused it. Results are similar, but the moral weight changes.

Also what base destroying zealots?

Phaedon and Someone With Mass come to mind. I'm not attacking the destroyers side in general, I'm attacking zealots on both sides.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

SandTrout wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope.

Overlord would have caused a technological apocolypse.


I think most of the resentment to Cerberus is alot of what you see are 90% failed experiments or seemingly pointless experiments,if they would have given more examples of Cerberus doing something 100% right,there would probably ease the choice of handing it over to them,instead you choose handing the keys over to cletus or just winging it without the chance of the good ole thorn in your side.

Competence is a completely separate, issue. Cerberus would not have willfully caused the technological apocalyspe so much as neglegently caused it. Results are similar, but the moral weight changes.

Also what base destroying zealots?

Phaedon and Someone With Mass come to mind. I'm not attacking the destroyers side in general, I'm attacking zealots on both sides.

I'm trying to keep track of zealots,only one comes to mind...

[ddv.rsa]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They are ready to team up with Aria, who orderes to get human slaves to "keep the krogans busy" for the amusement of the general Afterlife's scum! I have to ask again: hypocritical much?

Whatever she does, guys will always like Aria because she's hot.

[didymos1120]

ddv.rsa wrote...

 In complete privacy, the Council tells Shepard that the Reapers do not exist.

OK, wait....you consider an office which has a wide-open balcony in lieu of a back wall to have "complete privacy"? 

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Sisterofshane wrote...

He means the people who want to blow up the base out of fear.  You know, the "researching is hopeless, this is what the reapers wanted, TIM is eeeebbbbiiilllll" kind of crowd.

I see,there are a few people who pop in her just to drop the TIM is Hitler card of the HEIL TIM card,and then there are those who have simple explainations.




Then you have traitors and devils advocates,yeah you trout.   people with reasonable explainations.