3618 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

 The council may not outwardly admit they exist, but you had well better bet that after facing down a ship as advanced as Sovereign, that they are in high gear trying to at least bring their own technology up to that level.

Seriously? In complete privacy, the Council tells Shepard that the Reapers do not exist. Even Anderson. How serious can their efforts be if even Shepard, Anderson and Udina (one a Councilor themselves) aren't aware of them?

No, I think it's more likely they have their heads in the sand. Individuals and agencies from the various alien governments may take initiative (like the turians salvaging Sovereign), but the Council itself is blind to the threat.

I think that's especially the case for the Alliance.

Udina in ME1 got it right. Human hegemony could only happen if the rest of the galaxy were afraid of what the alliance just defeated. It is in their interest to reveal the existence of the reapers and keep reminding everyone of them. It doesn't matter if they actually believed it, it's good politics.

Instead they chose to not use an obvious political tool. That seems to indicate that they really do not believe that the Reapers exist.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 août 2011 - 09:30 .

[Sebby]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Seboist wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yeah, they were kind of "expanded" unrealistically in the second game, but to say that the illusive man is not capable of WORSE things then mercenaries?  Um, look at what he did to Paul Grayson, the horrible things done to biotic children in his organization's name that he ignored (you can't TELL me that someone as smart, and well-informed as the illusive man didn't at least have an IDEA of what they were doing at the Teltin Facility), or the fact that he employs people like Kai Leng to extremely high up and important positions within the game (face to face contact with TIM I think is the highest a person can go in Cerberus)... and these were just to humans.

You can't tell me that he wouldn't view the other species as being less expendable then humans if it manages to further his "cause".

To be honest, while the actions of Cerberus are horrific, they are also limited in scope, so it becomes difficult to compare them to people the the Blue Suns and Eclipse.

Cerberus has done terrible things to hundreds over the years, but some of the mercenary groups have done terrible things to hundreds of thousands over the years, and that's being conservative, IMO.

Yeah and these mercenery groups in some cases control entire planets with millions of people (Blue Sun run Zorya has over a 100 mil). The best Cerberus can muster are small space stations and bases scattered in the ass end of space.

You know this has me thinking, it would have been LOL funny to give the Collector Base to the Blood Pack.

LOL, you vorcha sympathizer you!  Don't think I've heard of any vorcha scientists or engineers...

"Gahhh, we have base!  We study!  Find plan!  We Destroy Reaper!"

For what it's worth a Vorcha distillery exports liquor to Matriach Aethyta's bar and there's a CDN story about them rebuilding a Hanar colony. They can be pretty clever when they're able and willing. :happy:

[Zulu_DFA]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They are ready to team up with Aria, who orderes to get human slaves to "keep the krogans busy" for the amusement of the general Afterlife's scum! I have to ask again: hypocritical much?

Whatever she does, guys will always like Aria because she's hot.

Yeah, I know. Most people think with their genitals and nothing else.

[Sisterofshane]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

 The council may not outwardly admit they exist, but you had well better bet that after facing down a ship as advanced as Sovereign, that they are in high gear trying to at least bring their own technology up to that level.

Seriously? In complete privacy, the Council tells Shepard that the Reapers do not exist. Even Anderson. How serious can their efforts be if even Shepard, Anderson and Udina (one a Councilor themselves) aren't aware of them?

No, I think it's more likely they have their heads in the sand. Individuals and agencies from the various alien governments may take initiative (like the turians salvaging Sovereign), but the Council itself is blind to the threat.

:mellow:Yes, seriously.  Ever heard the expression "lying through your teeth"?  Totally applies here.
Nothing the council members say in that meeting is exclusively private.  If they (meaning the other council races, not humanity), truly believe that spreading the rumors of an ancient race of super-machines bent on total anhilation would cause a panic, they would most certainly avoid admitting it to a person with which they assume is now a traitor, gone against the council.

We also know that not all activities of the exclusive races are always shared with the coucil ( or at least, not shared with other council species members).  Otherwise, I think the council would have stepped in FAR sooner then they did in the First Contact War.  Basically, it took the amassing of the Turian Fleet for the council to notice that the Turians planned to subjugate humanity.

Think of it almost as a technological galactic arms race.  Each species, in private, is secretly studying and developing Reaper Tech (even if they don't think it a Reaper, they are not going to pass up an opportunity to become more technologically advanced).  Every race wants to hold a slight edge.  If they're not sharing this with each other, then why would they share it with Shepard?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Shisk knows how to beat the reapers,just you wait.

"GAAAAH we know reaper plan. we kill reaper,make us stronger."

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 15 août 2011 - 09:33 .

[ddv.rsa]

didymos1120 wrote...

OK, wait....you consider an office which has a wide-open balcony in lieu of a back wall to have "complete privacy"? 

You don't consider a major embassy on the Presidium to be a secure location? The Presidium is supposed to be crawling with C-Sec, it's not like random guys can scale the wall and listen in.

If the human embassy is not secure, nowhere on the Presidium is.

Modifié par ddv.rsa, 15 août 2011 - 09:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shisk knows how to beat the reapers,just you wait.

"GAAAAH we know reaper plan. we kill reaper,make us stronger."

Better than "we fight or we die. That's the plan."

Really, I get annoyed when I am forced to play a PC that shows as much sophistication as a Vorcha.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Right Sisterofshane, you believe whatever you need to if it helps you look like you aren't incompetent.

Right Saphra Deden, Insult everyone that disagrees with you.

[Sebby]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They are ready to team up with Aria, who orderes to get human slaves to "keep the krogans busy" for the amusement of the general Afterlife's scum! I have to ask again: hypocritical much?

Whatever she does, guys will always like Aria because she's hot.

Yeah, I know. Most people think with their genitals and nothing else.

Aria should be a renegade ally but the dopey logic of the writers equates renegade to being exclusively humancentric.

[Zulu_DFA]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shisk knows how to beat the reapers,just you wait.

"GAAAAH we know reaper plan. we kill reaper,make us stronger."

Shepard had a similar plan in a trailer... Shepard is voiced by Mark Meer... Shepard is a Vorcha!!!

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!

If it were a physical battle where you are litterally destroying your enemy, I would agree. In this situation, destruction of your opponents is neither possible nor desirable. The point of debate and discussion is to gain converts, not destroy the opposition.

In this case 'zealotry' in the defense of rational action is certainly not something I should be ashamed of.

In this case you are only giving credence to rational points that support your decission while ignoring or insulting valid points of concern that support the other position. This is zealotry. Rational action acknowedges both sides, even when it weights one side as more practical than the other. Ieldra is rational, you are a zealot.

Since the rest of your post is just name-calling and opinions (stated as fact) that others will refute, I'll ignore it.

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 août 2011 - 09:38 .

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Our connections with Cerberus are not important enough to make it hard for us to recruit the other races. They alreayd don't give a **** and they won't give a ****, certainly not when the Reapers have invaded the galaxy.

The power struggle between Cerberus and the Alliance is a very fine line, and in some places seemingly intertwined.  Give TIM the CB, and wham-o!  Cerberus is now more powerful then the Alliance.  The Alliance becomes discredited, and as a result, so does humanity.

The galaxy doesn't care now because Cerberus is considered a "fringe" group.

And let me put it this way...if you Saphra, asked me to come help defend your house tomorrow, while mine is also seemingly at similar risk, do you think I would drop everything for you?  NO, I wouldn't.

Would I do it for one of my good friends?  Yes.  A trustworthy relationship is very important when it comes to matters of defense and strategy.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

If it were a physical battle where you are litterally destroying your enemy, I would agree. In this situation, destruction of your opponents is neither possible nor desirable. The point of debate and discussion is to gain converts, not destroy the opposition.

The smart folk here don't need to be convinced because they're already on my side. Anyone else is too dumb to see the truth.

Bravo,bravo.

[Sisterofshane]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Shisk knows how to beat the reapers,just you wait.

"GAAAAH we know reaper plan. we kill reaper,make us stronger."

Better than "we fight or we die. That's the plan."

Really, I get annoyed when I am forced to play a PC that shows as much sophistication as a Vorcha.

LOL, okay, this made me almost wake up my whole family!

That really is one of the cheesiest, poorly written lines in history.  Way to state the obvious Commander Shepard!

[Ieldra]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think you are under the mistaken impression that every single species will suddenly refuse to work with humans just because we gave Cerberus the base. That would be incredibly short-sighted, knowing that humans (assuming Shepard gave the information EDI downloaded from the base to the Alliance) and Cerberus are the factions most knowledgeable about the Reapers at this point.

To address your last point first, I think it is incredibly naive to assume that Cerberus is the foremost expert on the Reapers.  The council may not outwardly admit they exist, but you had well better bet that after facing down a ship as advanced as Sovereign, that they are in high gear trying to at least bring their own technology up to that level.  We know from all the media within the game universe (books, comics, games) that the Alliance has been looking into the Reaper threat.  We don't know to what extent, but we can reasonably assume that the other council races are, as well.

One would think so, right. But......recall the Turian Councilor? "We have dismissed that claim"? There are times when I thought the Council might be subtly indoctrinated - after all, the Citadel is Reaper technology. Anyway, what I'm saying is that the other species and factions - even the Alliance - haven't given Shepard reason to be confident of their willingness to tackle the matter. 

So, on the other point, we agree to disagree.  It's a matter of strategy (as in all wars), and it comes down to intelligence gathering vs. mobilization.  I think we can agree that one with out the other (Fleet without information, information without Fleet), would both potentially lose us the war.  Everything else in between is very much a "shade of grey", and dependent upon personal experiences and opinions on whether or not we favor one side (intelligence) or the other (mobilization).

Well, yes....only, as I said elsewhere, the Collector base is a Reaper factory. It's an absolutely singular opportunity to get to know their structure in detail. I think the weight of that cannot be ignored. What probably will happen is that the other species and factions will agree to an alliance against the Reapers - anything else would be very shortsighted - and then try to steal any knowledge whose lack might cause them a significant disadvantage after the war. BTW, that's exaclty what happened in WWII... 

[Zulu_DFA]

Seboist wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
They are ready to team up with Aria, who orderes to get human slaves to "keep the krogans busy" for the amusement of the general Afterlife's scum! I have to ask again: hypocritical much?

Whatever she does, guys will always like Aria because she's hot.

Yeah, I know. Most people think with their genitals and nothing else.

Aria should be a renegade ally but the dopey logic of the writers equates renegade to being exclusively humancentric.

No, you're wrong here.

Renegede = jerk.  Human-centric = jerk. => Human-centric = renegade. That's the dopey logic.

However, on a rare occasion Shepard can either be human-centric or (nearly impossible to imagine) even more jerk than human-centric, human-centric becomes paragon. Proof 1: Feros. Proof 2: "Liara you stoopid b*tch, why'd you give me to Cerberus???"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 août 2011 - 09:43 .

[SandTrout]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The smart folk here don't need to be convinced because they're already on my side. Anyone else is too dumb to see the truth.

'If you don't see the emperor's clothes, then you must be an imbicile' is how you're goint to play it, then?

Modifié par SandTrout, 15 août 2011 - 09:49 .

[Sebby]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Aria should be a renegade ally but the dopey logic of the writers equates renegade to being exclusively humancentric.

Well what makes you think she'll be a Paragon ally? I think that would only be the case if the choice was Aria or some other human criminal. So far I don't see any real counterpart to her.

She'll likely be a Shepard ally regardless as you can't really do any real damage against her in ME2.

On a similiar note I've always been of the mind that there should be exclusive alien allies depending on a Shepard's alignment such as:

Paragon: Asari,Turian and Salarian
Neutral: Geth,Quarian and Rachni
Renegade: Krogan,Vorcha and Batarian

With my canon Shepard I've tried to create a pro-human renegade that's anti-council races and tries to recruit the non-citadel ones to her side but considering how the choices exist in a complete vacuum from each other and how a choice is pigeonholed into being "paragon" or "renegade" that isn't likely to happen.

Modifié par Seboist, 15 août 2011 - 09:46 .

[didymos1120]

ddv.rsa wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

OK, wait....you consider an office which has a wide-open balcony in lieu of a back wall to have "complete privacy"? 

You don't consider a major embassy on the Presidium to be a secure location? The Presidium is supposed to be crawling with C-Sec, it's not like random guys can scale the wall and listen in.

If the human embassy is not secure, nowhere on the Presidium is.

Dude, it's not hard: the office is wide-open.  People can just point a camera or directional mike at it at any time from a distance.  And the Presidium?  You mean that place where a Shadow Broker agent pretty much operated openly?  Where Helena Blake got in and asked you to assasinate a couple rival crime bosses? That place where Anderson had a meeting with a Cerberus operative?  That one? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sisterofshane wrote...
The power struggle between Cerberus and the Alliance is a very fine line, and in some places seemingly intertwined.  Give TIM the CB, and wham-o!  Cerberus is now more powerful then the Alliance.  The Alliance becomes discredited, and as a result, so does humanity.

That assumes that Cerberus will reveal itself to be more powerful than the Alliance, at least in this critical moment. Instead of just act like the secretive organization it always was (one that I believe already influences the alliance anyhow).

And let me put it this way...if you Saphra, asked me to come help defend your house tomorrow, while mine is also seemingly at similar risk, do you think I would drop everything for you?  NO, I wouldn't.

Would I do it for one of my good friends?  Yes.  A trustworthy relationship is very important when it comes to matters of defense and strategy.

Trustworthy relationship and politics seem to be mutually exclusive terms and the most if not the only important thing when it comes to defense and strategy is interest and the only form of trust one could have is based on ability and not will (as in I trust the weak to be unable to do things only the strong can do), but I digress.

If it turns out Saphra, who is facing extinction, also has a weapon or info that could prove valuable to defending your own home the next day. Wouldn't you aid him / her? 

If a friend is also facing an attack on the same day, and he has nothing to offer you and you would risk wasting your ressources for nothing, and there is no possible way to save both him and Saphra, who would you save?