3618 réponses à ce sujet

[Fixers0]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...


Not really an anwser,

Again i ask, what bravery is there in being nothing but betrayer of you're species, why would one commit such an act?
 

Not a betrayer, a savior.

You don't save anything by destroying your own entire species for nothing but your own weakness, that is the fact that you're not willing to your own's.   

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...
The power struggle between Cerberus and the Alliance is a very fine line, and in some places seemingly intertwined.  Give TIM the CB, and wham-o!  Cerberus is now more powerful then the Alliance.  The Alliance becomes discredited, and as a result, so does humanity.

How the hell does Cerberus become more powerful than the alliance with the CB?
The Alliance has a resource pool of 12 billion people - and the acompanying infrastructure.

As Legion said "this faciltiy is data." It doesn't magicly spawn credits, warships, supplies and soldiers out of air.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 août 2011 - 02:07 .

[Ieldra]

Longsword-83 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's not cowardice, it's bravery. It was a tough pill to swallow, but I had to do it. I had to sit down and look at the situation and find the best plausible outcome. Surrender is that outcome.

See, funny thing about humans. We're impulsive and driven by the desire to survive as we are. Doesn't matter how much logic you put into something to pretty it up and make it presentable, because in the end we're just hairless apes with innate knowledge of killing stuff with sticks and rocks.

And whatever we don't like, we will bash with those sticks until the thing is dead, or we're dead. Sure, a few weak-willed people will go out thinking "Oh, the other guy has a point, we whould listen". But most of the time that doesn't really end well for them. Because the first group will beat them to death.

And then we gather up the nastiest, meanest, burliest lot. We give them bigger sticks. Sticks that can level city blocks and render planets uninhabitable. And put them under smarter, competent apes to tell them where to swing the sticks. And apes that move bigger sticks made out of smaller sticks to get the apes where they need to go so smash the enemy. And apes who can tell who the enemy is, where the enemy is, what kind of sticks they're using, and what the best way to smash them is. And if they don't know the last part, well, we throw apes at the problem and look for the enemy to flinch.

And when it DOES flinch, we take that information, take a REALLY big, REALLY sharp rock, tie it to a stick, and then we JAM that rock-stick into the soft spot on that enemy and repeat as necessary until the thing is DEAD. And then we find something else to smash and we repeat.

Humans fight. It's what we do. Go ahead with your "ascension" and "greater good". The rest of us will take up our rocks and sticks and beat the hell out of you and your fellow collaborators. And then we'll beat the ever-loving hell out of anything else, including ourselves, just to prove a point to any potential challengers.

We poison our air and water to weed out the weak. We set off fission bombs in our own cradle. We nailed our God to a stick. Do not **** with the Human race.

While I don't agree with Saphra, your argument comes down to "determination will win the war". Tell that to the countless human tribes and countries who have surrendered to avoid total extinction in the course of human history. Tell that to the ghosts of those who *were* obliterated because they misjudged the impact of their determination. 

We are the survivors, the ones whose mix of determination and prudence worked out best in the end. But that's no guarantee we'll survive the next challenge.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SandTrout wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Typical paragoon behavior: get pwn'd by a reasonable argument, take insult, claim higher moral ground.

Zulu, I'd be very careful and re-read the context of Saphra and sis's remarks. Saphra broke out the insults pages ago, and hasn't stopped.

That makes her rude, but not wrong.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
The power struggle between Cerberus and the Alliance is a very fine line, and in some places seemingly intertwined.  Give TIM the CB, and wham-o!  Cerberus is now more powerful then the Alliance.  The Alliance becomes discredited, and as a result, so does humanity.

How the hell does Cerberus become more powerful than the alliance with the CB?
The Alliance has a resource pool of 12 billion people - and the acompanying infrastructure.

As Legion said "this faciltiy is data." It doesn't magicly spawn credits, warships, supplies and soldiers out of air.

If they can indoctrinate, they can take over. Similar to what TIM himself had the stop the Turians from doing after the First Contact war.

Same if they can use the base to create armies.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 15 août 2011 - 02:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ddv.rsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I personally think people are overestimating either Cerberus or the base if they think it almost automatically makes Cerberus more powerful than the alliance.

Here's a thought: if Cerberus turned against the Alliance, would all their operatives follow them? I think you can count on some considering it too much and defecting with intel. I'm fairly certain that whatever Cerberus learns from the base will reach the Alliance sooner rather than later.

Good point. With the reapers coming, you really think peopel would turn agaisnt their own kind..willingy?
Half of Cerberus has family on Earth.
You think the science guys working at Cerberus will look at the news report and go "Oh my God! Humanity is in danger. And my family! And I have all this data on reaper tech I've been studying. Hmm...maybe I should do nothing with it!":lol:

[Lotion Soronarr]

ddv.rsa wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

In ME3 they seem to be openly warring against the Alliance.

Where?

It looks that way. The Alliance is fighting the Reapers, and Cerberus is allied with the Reapers (at least Cerberus troops have been seen supporting a Reaper). I take that to mean they're allied against the Alliance.

BW have also stated Cerberus troops make up 40% of the enemies you'll face, with husks making up another large chunk. With them as the main organic enemy I'm will to venture they're against  the Alliance.

Some correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleve Ceerberus is specificly after Sheppard.
I dont' recall hearing anywhere that Cerberus is going agaisnt the Alliance.

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I personally think people are overestimating either Cerberus or the base if they think it almost automatically makes Cerberus more powerful than the alliance.

Here's a thought: if Cerberus turned against the Alliance, would all their operatives follow them? I think you can count on some considering it too much and defecting with intel. I'm fairly certain that whatever Cerberus learns from the base will reach the Alliance sooner rather than later.

Good point. With the reapers coming, you really think peopel would turn agaisnt their own kind..willingy?
Half of Cerberus has family on Earth.
You think the science guys working at Cerberus will look at the news report and go "Oh my God! Humanity is in danger. And my family! And I have all this data on reaper tech I've been studying. Hmm...maybe I should do nothing with it!":lol:

When the Reapers are gone and dead, why wouldn't they try then, when the galaxy is at it's weakest?

[Someone With Mass]

It's what Shepard said, they could've trained an entire army for what they spent to bring him/her back. Looks like they actually invested in it.

I mean, why else would they want to train super soldiers?

[TMA LIVE]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

In ME3 they seem to be openly warring against the Alliance.

Where?

It looks that way. The Alliance is fighting the Reapers, and Cerberus is allied with the Reapers (at least Cerberus troops have been seen supporting a Reaper). I take that to mean they're allied against the Alliance.

BW have also stated Cerberus troops make up 40% of the enemies you'll face, with husks making up another large chunk. With them as the main organic enemy I'm will to venture they're against  the Alliance.

Some correct me if I'm wrong, but I beleve Ceerberus is specificly after Sheppard.
I dont' recall hearing anywhere that Cerberus is going agaisnt the Alliance.

If Reapers are destorying Earth, and they're helping the Reapers with that task, then yes, they are against the Alliance.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...

And moral high ground has nothing to do with it.  There is nothing to debate with someone who refuses to believe they are wrong.  I am open to other's way of thinking, and can be swayed by logical arguments, at which point I do not accept that to be "failure" on my part, but rather open myself to be more informed and prepared for the next debate.  That is the nature and reason of debate.

Otherwise it just sounds like Daffy Duck and Bugs Bunny going "Yes", "No", "Yes", "No" back and forth.  It's about as much fun to participate in as it is to read, and serves no purpose other then to make the offenders look like three-year olds on the playground.

What I find funny is that EVERYONE claims this.
Everyone claims they are open to reasonable debate... except they're not really.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ddv.rsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I personally think people are overestimating either Cerberus or the base if they think it almost automatically makes Cerberus more powerful than the alliance.

Here's a thought: if Cerberus turned against the Alliance, would all their operatives follow them? I think you can count on some considering it too much and defecting with intel. I'm fairly certain that whatever Cerberus learns from the base will reach the Alliance sooner rather than later.

Good point. With the reapers coming, you really think peopel would turn agaisnt their own kind..willingy?
Half of Cerberus has family on Earth.
You think the science guys working at Cerberus will look at the news report and go "Oh my God! Humanity is in danger. And my family! And I have all this data on reaper tech I've been studying. Hmm...maybe I should do nothing with it!":lol:

When the Reapers are gone and dead, why wouldn't they try then, when the galaxy is at it's weakest?

That's assuming the galaxy (and humainty) SURIVIVES the reapers in the first place.
You're telling me if you worked for Cerberus and had vital info on the reapers, you'd no nothing and just wait.
You'd risk the survival of your entire race...your family?

[Someone With Mass]

TMA LIVE wrote...

If Reapers are destorying Earth, and they're helping the Reapers with that task, then yes, they are against the Alliance.

And they killed an Alliance admiral, along with his troops. I don't think the Alliance would take it so kindly to that little fact.

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, Saphra, just cut the bull****.

Nobody's buying your little act.

[Lotion Soronarr]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
The power struggle between Cerberus and the Alliance is a very fine line, and in some places seemingly intertwined.  Give TIM the CB, and wham-o!  Cerberus is now more powerful then the Alliance.  The Alliance becomes discredited, and as a result, so does humanity.

How the hell does Cerberus become more powerful than the alliance with the CB?
The Alliance has a resource pool of 12 billion people - and the acompanying infrastructure.

As Legion said "this faciltiy is data." It doesn't magicly spawn credits, warships, supplies and soldiers out of air.

If they can indoctrinate, they can take over. Similar to what TIM himself had the stop the Turians from doing after the First Contact war.

Same if they can use the base to create armies.

Except we've seen that indoctrination is limited in scope and pwoer (again, I'll point to Sovereign and how he didn't conquer half the galaxy that way), and we dont' even know if htere's any indoctrination device on the base....nor do we know if Cerberus would even manage to unlock it's secrets.

As for the second - there is just one base. No way Cerberus can create a army powerful enough to take on the Alliance. Especially when they have no navy.

[Longsword-83]

TMA LIVE wrote...
If Reapers are destorying Earth, and they're helping the Reapers with that task, then yes, they are against the Alliance.

Forgive me if I'm just thick, but has it actually been stated that Cerberus is working FOR the Reapers? I keep forgetting.

In any case, just because they're working against Shepard doesn't mean they're working against the Alliance or the Citadel races (or at least just the Alliance). Shepard has likely become a liability in some way or another, and the appearance of Cerberus Forces during the E3 demo was an (un)happy coincidence. I find it possible they were just launching an attack on the Reaper base to gather intel or tech, saw Shepard, and seeing as he is a priority threat, decided "LET'S GITEM".

[Longsword-83]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You see? I'm not a coward, but you are selfish. It's not about humanity, it's just about your personal pride.

Pride and honor are just human inventions. We'll have no need of them in our new form.

You're absolutely right. Concepts like pride and honor exists only among humanity, it cannot be found anywhere else in the galaxy. Not in the Turians, the Asari, Batarians, Quarians, or Krogan, and especially not the Reapers.

And here I thought that Sovereign was a prideful pile of scrap.

Modifié par Longsword-83, 15 août 2011 - 02:26 .

[Fixers0]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I rather die fighting than becoming part of something that isn't even remotely human any longer.

You see? I'm not a coward, but you are selfish. It's not about humanity, it's just about your personal pride.

Pride and honour are just human inventions. We'll have no need of them in our new form.

So you are addmiting here that by being reduced to orange slush and by being pumped into a metal box will destroy everything that makes us the humanity as it is.

That's kind on contradictory,

In your idea by saving Humanity we lose everything that make us what we are.

 

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? During the Collector abductions the Alliance was perfectly willing to get along fine with Cerberus. Seems they don't care too much about Kahoku.

Gee, I wonder if that has something to do with the colonies being located outside Alliance space.

That's why the Collectors hit those colonies to begin with.

By the way, Hackett =/= the opinion of the Alliance. He isn't their leader.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 15 août 2011 - 02:27 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
They aren't buying it because they're too ignorant and materialistic to see beyond their own existence.

No, that's because they actually have brains to use.

[Lotion Soronarr]

SalsaDMA wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

Concerning the game - you never once had to act on a "gut feeling" during your tour? You always had the time to evalutate every possible outcome and come to the most logical of conclusions?

We were trained specifically not to trust 'gut feeling'. I was Navy, so I didn't see any ground warfare, but an essential part of all military training is called Operational Risk Management. ORM can be done formally through a meeting, or on the fly. The basic principals is you rationally evaluate the most severe risk that can reasonably occur and place that opposite to the desired benefit of whatever task you are doing.

For situations that we could predict were likely to happen (such as torpedo evasion), we did the ORM in advance and trained with prepared reactions that we calculated were most likely to keep us alive long enough to return fire. If one person acted based on emotion, then the entire thing fell apart and we 'died'.

Because some ORM must take place in a time-critical environment, not all of it is perfect. There are limitations to what you can consider in a situation like the CB, but emotions are something that should be set aside for the moment so that the decision most likely to be best, based on admittedly limited data, can be made.

Somewhat offtopic, but I just wanted to point out research into processes of the brain indicate that judgements done purely by using the rationale part of the brain utilizes a smaller part of the brains neurons than judgements done by using nonrationale (ie. gut instinct). When making judgements you are always in the end making use of the part of your brain that draws on emotions rather than pure logic, and if you could actually train your 'gut-instinct' to become better at arriving to the decisions you would deem favourable, that would be far more preferrable as it utilizes a bigger part of your brain and can make quicker and more complex decisions. I asume this is also what people training to enter a Zen-state when doing things are trying to acomplish.

So trying to aim for a purely logic route seems selfdefeating to me, and aiming towards the lesser ability to make the right judgements instead of the greater ability.

What research? I'd like to see those research papaers.

And one more note - more brain activity doesnt' mean you're making a better decision.