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[razhen3]

     I recently purchased the Ultimate Edition of DA:O and during this playthrough I've come across two things that have stood out to me, maybe someone can help explain them?

     First thing I noticed was during the Mage section of the main storyline, after Ostagar. (My origin was a Human Mage) I was talking to Wynne and she said something along the lines of, "The Circle was proud to have you as a member. The Wardens are lucky to have someone as honorable as you, you proved yourself in many ways, not just by surviving the Joining Ritual." (this isn't word for word, I couldn't remember exactly what she had said)

... What? How could she know about the Joining? Didn't Duncan say nobody but the Grey Wardens knew, because if everyone knew the risk many people would shy away from becoming a Grey Warden?

     The other thing I noticed is the hatred and fear towards blood magic. EVERYONE is afraid of it and there are many sections of the story which deal specifically with blood mages (I have seen four examples so far, there may be more later on in the story that I can't remember off hand). During the mage origin story with Jowan, Jowan poisoning the Arl, and blood mages taking over the Circle. Each of these events is full of dialog denouncing blood magic, yet I haven't seen a thing repercussion or even a comment of the Warden using blood magic.
 
     You don't even need to be a mage to use blood magic, each class can obtain the "Power of Blood" abilities through the Warden's Keep DLC, which are blood magic. My first thought was, "Well, I'm a Warden, so perhaps it is overlooked because I'm working for the 'Greater Good' " But during the Wardens Keep the NPC who is guiding you (Dryden?) comments on how the Wardens were using blood magic, and were then considered "evil". Even your own party says a line or two about how they were shocked the Warden's would act with such irresponsibility.

     Can anyone explain these to me? Maybe I overlooked something and there is a simple explanation. Have any of you come across something similar that stood out to you?

[theskymoves]

razhen3 wrote...

... What? How could she know about the Joining? Didn't Duncan say nobody but the Grey Wardens knew, because if everyone knew the risk many people would shy away from becoming a Grey Warden?

Perhaps Wynne was one of the mages Duncan had help with the preparations for the Joining ritual? Or maybe those mages liked to gossip? You will eventually find this isn't the only instance in the game when someone who shouldn't know about the Joining demonstrates considerable knowledge of it, btw.

~tsm

[razhen3]

theskymoves wrote...

Perhaps Wynne was one of the mages Duncan had help with the preparations for the Joining ritual? Or maybe those mages liked to gossip? You will eventually find this isn't the only instance in the game when someone who shouldn't know about the Joining demonstrates considerable knowledge of it, btw.

~tsm

Hmm, did Duncan actually get help with the ritual? I don't remember reading anything such as this. I can't accept gossip as a posibility, this is a highly guarded secret. Remember Duncan killed Jory just because he refused to drink, I can't imagine he would let anyone near who could possibly witness that.

I probably should have clarified, but I've beaten this game multiple times when it first came out, that's why this has caught my attention. I never picked up on it before. With that being said, can you specify some other instances where characters mention the joining, who shouldn't know about it? Now i'm curious!

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Duncan does say the mages help prepare it. Without looking up the dialogue, I assume they prepare the blood. I go under the assumption that death as a result of the Joining is not common knowledge (at least until Anore yells, "The Joining is often fatal, is it not?" at the Landsmeet ), but it's drinking darkspawn blood that's the most closely guarded secret.

In Awakening there are non-Grey Wardens who nevertheless serve the Wardens and seem to know a great deal, including the Joining details. It would seem one does not have to actually be a Grey Warden for them to grant measures of trust.

[Monica21]

I would imagine that there's some knowledge that recruits have never become Wardens. There was quite a number before Ostagar and Alistair mentions I think one recruit dying at his Joining. At least some of these people have families and aren't on the run or orphaned. It's doubtful that their family was notified how they died, but I think there is probably some knowledge that the act of becoming a Warden can be life-threatening, whatever that act is.

The thing that bothers me about Anora isn't that she mentions that it's dangerous, it's that she mentions a Joining at all. I think that is not common knowledge or even rumored of. Being queen I'm sure she knows something and may have said, "Hey, Cailan. What are we keeping all these vials of blood for?" when cleaning out the Royal Pantry or something, but she doesn't have to say it.

[Merle McClure II]

Well, my personal take on it is that the details of "The Joining" is probably as known as what really happens at a mage's Harrowing, i.e., it's dangerous and you either pass or are never seen again.

As for Wayne knowing more than she should, well I've always gotten the impression that Wayne knew more than she should about alot of things, the real question is whether the fact that she's spirit merged or her mudane travels is the source of her lore.

[theskymoves]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Duncan does say the mages help prepare it. Without looking up the dialogue, I assume they prepare the blood.

The line is (upon the Warden telling Duncan s/he has successfully gathered the vials of darkspawn blood):

"Good. I've had the Circle mages preparing. With the blood you've retrieved, we can begin the Joining immediately."

Later, Alistair also says (when the Warden asks him about rebuilding the order):

"I mean, eventually we would have to use the Joining to make more Grey Wardens, right? But I don't know how to do the Joining, or what's involved. I know it involves lyrium and some other magic, and that's it's really difficult to prepare. But that's it."

~tsm

Modifié par theskymoves, 30 juillet 2011 - 10:16 .

[Corker]

In Witch Hunt, Finn also seems to know about the process. When elven blood is needed to find the Lights of Arlathan, Ariane will ask why a Dalish Warden's blood can't be used. Finn hedges with, "Grey Warden blood is... *different.*"

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Monica21 - Given that Anora's husband and father in law were friends with Duncan, and Loghain probably learned a bit about the Wardens himself thanks to Maric's friendship with Duncan, I don't think it's a huge stretch for Anora to know the Joining esists, if not that darkspawn blood is an ingredient.

@theskymoves - Thanks The devs mentioned in the forums (and The Calling appears to confirm this) that darkspawn blood is not absolutely necessary for inflicting taint...magic can do it, if the caster knows how (in the book, which I recently read, the Architect teaches First Enchanter Remille with the intent of tainting entire cities). I do wonder what, exactly, the mages at Ostagar do? In Awakening, I don't remember any mages being used to prepare the Joining ritual.

@Corker - Finn's been reading books he shouldn't have! Curious how he just out and says that, rather than trying...although interestingly enough, a Grey Warden in the Legacy DLC (thank you, Youtube) outright says that their blood is useless in certain rituals, compelling them to get help from those who have not undergone the Joining.

[Monica21]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

@Monica21 - Given that Anora's husband and father in law were friends with Duncan, and Loghain probably learned a bit about the Wardens himself thanks to Maric's friendship with Duncan, I don't think it's a huge stretch for Anora to know the Joining esists, if not that darkspawn blood is an ingredient.

I didn't mean to imply that Anora shouldn't have known about the Joining, but more express my feeling that she shouldn't be throwing around the word "Joining." I think, more than anything, the Joining itself is what is kept the most secret and not the fact that becoming a Warden can be fatal. Not sure if that makes any more sense.

@theskymoves -In Awakening, I don't remember any mages being used to prepare the Joining ritual.

There's just.... SO MUCH WRONG with how the Joinings are handled in Awakening. Your Seneschal knows more than you, conducts the Joining, and everyone lives. Maybe you traveled with a big Tupperware of Joining blood, who knows.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Monica21 wrote...

I didn't mean to imply that Anora shouldn't have known about the Joining, but more express my feeling that she shouldn't be throwing around the word "Joining." I think, more than anything, the Joining itself is what is kept the most secret and not the fact that becoming a Warden can be fatal. Not sure if that makes any more sense.

Oh, I definitely agree! In fact, I use that incident in one of my fanfics to highlight that, thanks to Anora, word has pretty much 'got out' in Denerim about the Joining and its potential for fatality.

I don't think her announcement in DA:O shouldn't have happened, though. It might not have endeared her to Wardens who wanted to keep things secret, but she was grasping at anything that had the potential to save her father at the time. What I mean is that the outburst felt in character, no matter the consequences.

There's just.... SO MUCH WRONG with how the Joinings are handled in Awakening. Your Seneschal knows more than you, conducts the Joining, and everyone lives. Maybe you traveled with a big Tupperware of Joining blood, who knows.

Slightly off topic, but the more I learn about the Wardens and their secrecy, the more I'm disinclined to trust them. While hierarchy of a sort is doubtlessly necessary, I have a real problem with blindly trusting the chain of command--especially from an organisation that's notorious for being willing to do anything to achieve their goals, even horrible things.

Not for the first time, I seriously think my canon Warden would leave the order if she didn't get certain answers after a while. Or stop answering to the First Warden, at least.

Vigilanti Wardens, ho!

[theskymoves]

Monica21 wrote...
Maybe you traveled with a big Tupperware of Joining blood, who knows.

Ewwww.

(And if it leaks in the Warden Commander's luggage, how difficult would it be to get Mistress Woolsey to submit the dry cleaning bill to Weisshaupt for reimbursement?)

~tsm

[Cypher0020]

Ok I'm still starting Awakenings but...

everyone and their grandma can become a Warden? I mean I made the whole party go through the Joining but its like

Hey Anders needs to be a Warden....

I'll get the blood...

Oh and Sigrun..... and Valenna....and...and...


DA1 had an entire quest throguh the wilds to find the blood and it was life threatening to do so.... now Vigil's Keep as an entire warehoue of darkspawn blood, lyrium AND blood from an archdemon left over?

wtf?

[Jedimaster88]

Cypher0020 wrote...

Ok I'm still starting Awakenings but...

everyone and their grandma can become a Warden? I mean I made the whole party go through the Joining but its like

Hey Anders needs to be a Warden....

I'll get the blood...

Oh and Sigrun..... and Valenna....and...and...


DA1 had an entire quest throguh the wilds to find the blood and it was life threatening to do so.... now Vigil's Keep as an entire warehoue of darkspawn blood, lyrium AND blood from an archdemon left over?

wtf?

Well there was the blight. That means plenty of dead darkspawn for the blood and the archdemon is also dead and there is that mage ambassador from the circle. Even before the warden arrives to Vigil´s keep, there are those orlesian grey wardens that were sent to help rebuilding the order. I assume with all those things, they were able to make the necessary preparations for future recruits so they can get to the joining right away. The Vigil´s keep is the new base for the wardens so its logical to have some sort of warehouse for the blood, lyrium and other stuff.

[CalJones]

Yes, I'm not overly concerned with the mechanics - one dead archdemon can yield a lot of blood.
But the survival rate is a tad high, and let us not speak of Oghren's joining. Sigh.

[Cyne]

Cypher0020 wrote...

Ok I'm still starting Awakenings but...

everyone and their grandma can become a Warden? I mean I made the whole party go through the Joining but its like

Hey Anders needs to be a Warden....

I'll get the blood...

Oh and Sigrun..... and Valenna....and...and...


DA1 had an entire quest throguh the wilds to find the blood and it was life threatening to do so.... now Vigil's Keep as an entire warehoue of darkspawn blood, lyrium AND blood from an archdemon left over?

wtf?

I agree. It felt special to become a grey warden in origins, it was emphasised over and over again that only the elite would get that opportunity, that you'd literally have to prove you were strong enough, that even if you survived it would change your life forever and that from that point on you'd be serving something greater than yourself. Awakenings managed to reduce that feeling of specialness and turned the event into something banal. 

[KhaysunDei]

One of the things I didn't get was Alistair saying something along the lines of "when you become a grey warden, you don't have to worry about dying of old age!  You got 30 years, more or less."
So somebody who drank darkspawn blood if they're like 60(assuming they survive the ritual) will live to 90 if they didn't get physically harmed?

[Zaxares]

I think that's just a frame of reference. The darkspawn taint will eventually kill you in about 30 years, assuming you don't die of old age or injury etc. beforehand.

[Monica21]

Somewhere in the books it's established that the older you are the less time you have. So, if you spare Loghain, I would certainly not assume he has 30 years. I would have said five at most, but DA2 changed that. Now I'll say ten at most.

And as for an additional thing, why would my warden leave the Order? My warden loves being a Warden. I really dislike all the "he/she disappeared" business, because my warden has no intention of abandoning the Order unless there's serious interference from the First Warden. In which case, my disappearance might entail travelling to the Anderfels along with Zevran to kill him.