270 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

New York City has terrible problems with the parking habits of UN envoys, lose millions of dollars in revenue every year because of diplomatic immunity. Has to spend money making sure that certain visitors to the UN (who also have immunity) are guarded, especially someone like the president of Iran or Venesula...

If you listen to what Bran said, in an act 2 quest. The Qunari are politically neutral, and hunting them like animals would certainly be a violation of the Accords. Countries follow treaties, even when it's politically disadvantageous for them. Consider what would happen if Kirkwall broke the treaty first, as it is part of the alliance of the Free Marches, the entirety of the Marches would be at risk for Qunari aggression. So not only would there be political trouble from the Qunari but trouble from the other cities as well. Might even excise Kirkwall from the Alliance leaving it open for attack.

And the major characters of DA2 aren't stupid, they just follow agendas that you don't agree with. The Viscount is in a weak position , but that's not the same as stupid. High Cleric Elethea has a blind spot for the Chantry, and is passive, but not stupid. As for Hawke it depends how you play him/her. Meredith and Orsino are certainly not stupid just driven and locked so completely in their conflict they can't see how the outcome will affect anything else. Even the Arishok is not stupid, but he will do what the Qun requires because he believes. None of this is stupidty. Character flaws, yes. "Human" weakness absolutely, desperation, certainly. But not stupidity.

[/quote]
There is no need to follow a treaty, if not respected by the other party.

A treaty does it work both ways. Kirkwall was in self-defense in every respect, and had the right to ask Qunari to get out. Anyone, any sovereign nation invaded by foreign troops dangerous, which behaves as a power, would have required that.

[/quote]

The qunari weren't openly hostile in the first act, didn't even ASK for the compound, it was a "gift" in order to contain them. It wasn't something they walked in and took over. In fact, they didn't ask for anything. The Viscount acted within the Accords. The Qunari also followed the Accords up until act two. Until then there was no real reason to kick them out. The Viscount was taking the high road, and expecting the Arishok to act in the same manner other politicals would. A misjudgement, in that he was expecting them to do as humans would, but not stupidty. Just unfamiliarty with the Qunari. The player (not Hawke) has familiarity, but characters can't be judged on what the player knows.

[quote]
No, it's not only politically disadvantageous, it's a dangerous, disadvantage which directly affects the sovereignty of a country, its security. Sorry but not credible. Even the Swiss completely neutral during the Renaissance has never accepted that the French soldiers, German or Italian just take away a piece of their land, their Sovereignty. unless they anointed been defeated, or that they were powerless faced to a higher power, which was not the case of Kirkwall, of course.
[/quote]

The land was given, not taken away. The Qunari were put there to limit their influence on Kirkwall from the beginning.

[/quote]
[quote]
For New York, Unfortunately, this analogy doesn't match.

We are talking about a military presence that has invaded a sovereign city, that listen no one, do what it wants, wathever the will of the authorities. The United States of America as I know, will not allow hundreds of Venezuelan soldiers invading a small American city, and let them make their own law to the detriment of a whole section of citizens.
[/quote]

Actually it does, as the president of Iran is technically a criminal in the US as he played a part in the 1980 hostage situation. And the US is also sovereign territory where the envoys flaunt their diplomantic immunity to get out of paying parking tickets. It's the same lack of respect for the host country's laws, and it is detrimental to city, and state of New York, as that revenue can go to many things New Yorkers need and would ease up on driving and parking in NYC, which is monsterous anyway.

[quote]
The people of Kirkwall shows a concern and a growing weariness in their presence. It is obvious qunari are not considered as neutral. I see nothing that justifies the acceptance of a removed part of the city to its citizens, its people , governs its own rules.
[/quote]

That's why I said politically neutral. This is all being seen through the lens on the game of diplomacy. It's chess on a larger scale, move and counter move. Kirkwall isn't going to risk breaking the accords, and the Qunari aren't going to move unless forced to by the dictates of the Qun.

As for the "people of Kirkwall", neither group gives a flying fig about "the people". Kirkwall might as well have a caste system as strident as the dwarves. Most of the people, especially in Lowtown and Darktown are more concerned with their next meal, having a roof when it rains and not being killed by the Carta or the Coterie than the giants behind the gate in the docks. But it also makes "the people" good cannon fodder when a fanatic comes up with an idea to blame all their ills on these foreigners. The fanatics don't care about "the people" either, just their agendas. So the idea of what "the people" want when they are seen as disposible assets by some and not at all by others doesn't work real well.

[quote]
A state within a state. Nothing justifies that. It would not hunt them like animals,  if the viscount asked to leave the city, depending precisely on their peace agreement. They could have moved outdoors or on beaches.

Your logic is wrong when you say they didn't attack first. A peace agreement assumes to not attack  the sovereignty. The Qunari have not respected this agreement, they are clearly wrong. The physical attack is certainly not the first act.
[/quote]

They didn't attack Kirkwall when they arrived, and Kirkwall responded by gifting them an area of the docks where they could wait for their ship. That the Qunari weren't completely honest has little bearing on the issue. As for sovereignty, the Qunari didn't really start pushing until act 2. In act one they stayed were they were supposed to, having contact with only a few. There was no obvious attack on Kirkwall's sovereign rights, and the area in question could be considered like an embassy in RL. No average Kirkwaller was going to enter there, so the fact the Qunari were policing themselves, mattered little.

[Ariella]

Zoikster wrote...

I way preferred DA:O characters. Alistair, Morrigan, Oghren....all 1000 times more likeable imho. I loved their personalities, their stories were fleshed out well ,especially if you took the time to come back to camp and chat them up, and gift them. They grew on me in a way the DA 2 characters never did. Hell, I even liked Wynne a great deal.

Oghren a thousand times more likable than Varric? Don't see it. Varric just rocks, and I'd love to hear HIS version of the Warden's Tale and see how I made out

[Zoikster]

Ariella wrote...


Oghren a thousand times more likable than Varric? Don't see it. Varric just rocks, and I'd love to hear HIS version of the Warden's Tale and see how I made out

Actually Varric is the only character I find that is as good as the others I liked him a lot too.

Edit: I must confess I have a soft spot for Aveline as well. 

Modifié par Zoikster, 07 août 2011 - 03:23 .

[Ariella]

Zoikster wrote...

Ariella wrote...


Oghren a thousand times more likable than Varric? Don't see it. Varric just rocks, and I'd love to hear HIS version of the Warden's Tale and see how I made out

Actually Varric is the only character I find that is as good as the others I liked him a lot too.

Okay then . Seriously, I love Varric because he's a trickster. In an odd way, he's like Prometheus or Cayote or Loki. That was kind of Morrigan's archeotype in DAO, but she was much more serious. Not that I didn't like Morrigan, I did, but she was a darker more, secretive kind of trickster than Varric.

[gangly369]

I loved the majority of the DA:O cast (sten and dog had their moments but, meh), but that doesnt mean I didnt grow attached to some of the DA2 cast. Merrill and Varric in particular were my favs, along with Carver and Bethany. Fenris and Sebastian were alright, whilst I never really grew attached to Isabella at all. Anders was horrible for me for a good long while (I just couldnt get over the VA change), but he's slowly growing on me. He's currently at the level of 'Meh" right now

[London]

I liked and disliked characters from both games.

[Sanguinerin]

In Origins, I was very strongly attached to Alistair, Leliana, and Wynne. They're my main team. I love Morrigan's character, despite finding myself at odds with her most of the time. I hated Sten in my first run ever, but only because I didn't get to know him. He's right up there next to Morrigan now. Zevran was okay, and then I didn't like Oghren until he essentially seemed like a reformed man (so Awakening absolutely crushed the shred of love I found in his character).

In Awakening, I loved Anders the most as a replacement to dear Alistair. He kind of fit that light-hearted role that I came to love, and I actually had my Alistair romance character take the line, "Hey, pretty girl standing right here" and flirt with Anders. I loved Nathaniel with my Couslands, and I thought Justice was an interesting character concept. I came to have a strange admiration for Velanna, whose pride and stubbornness eventually became understandable. Sigrun was cool. Then, as I stated above, I detested the "new" Oghren.

In DAII, however... I can't say I hold the same love for, perhaps, anyone in the cast. I liked Aveline and my siblings more than most, but I think that might be because I started the game with them. I felt like Hawke's deepest connection was to them. Varric was cool. Isabela might be my greatest love--her strong, independent nature reminds me of Carmen, a book that I adore for the character of the same name because of her free-spirited nature.

Sebastian was my next favorite. He reminded me a bit of Leliana and Wynne.

Anders and Fenris were detestable figures, with Anders' new personality being quite disheartening considering how much I loved him from Origins. I was also a bit upset that not liking the two of them meant that I didn't particularly care much for any of the three main M/M relationships in Dragon Age.

Then came Merrill, who felt far more childish than the presence she gave off in her small appearance in Origins. Having a crazed, demon/spirit hybrid and a blood mage defender as my mage options pretty much left me mageless with the exception of my own Hawke or the little moments with Bethany, as I don't want mages like that in my party.

So overall, no, compared to Origins, I felt far less attachment to the characters in DAII. Isabela came the closest, with the siblings and Aveline falling behind her. I don't think I could ever romance anyone other than Isabela, with the exception of the quasi-romance with a rivaled Sebastian.

I'm not saying that the characters aren't deep, or aren't well-thought out, or anything else along those lines. However, none of them quite struck me as much as the Origins cast. Of course, I would put Aveline, Bethany, Carver, Isabela, and Varric above Oghren's Awakening appearance.

In terms of NPCs, there were many in Origins that I loved. Aneirin, Connor, the Couslands (Bryce, Eleanor, Fergus), Herren and Wade, Irving, and Teagan just to name a few, while in DAII I would say the only NPCs I loved were Cullen, Elthina, Leandra, Lilley of the Coterie, and Saemus.

As a side note, considering I love Isabela, Leliana, and Wynne so much, Sheryl: would you like to try your hand at the M/M love interest next time?

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 07 août 2011 - 02:51 .

[Carmen_Willow]

In Origins, Alistair and Wynne are my two perennial favorites. I love the preachy old biddy. And, no one can give a girl a rose like Alistair.

In Awakening, Nathaniel and Sigrun are my two favorite characters. I always thought that Anders was an angry guy even before he went all "kaaa-booom" on us. I loved Sigrun's "perky" outlook and was glad not to have yet another drunk dwarf and Nathaniel was just....ouch....too hawt to touch. I wished he had been an LI in DA:2 but not if he had to undergo the Anders transformation!

In DA:2, I have three charcters to whom I am well attached. Fenris, who has come to earn my respect and admiration for being the BA that he is, Aveline who is the big sister I never had, and Carter who is the younger sibling extraordinaire. I am attached to them, so I would say the writers have done their job.

[Darth Krytie]

I was attached to DA2 characters far more than the DA:O characters. I liked Alistair, when I romanced, him, Zevran, and Dog. It wasn't that I didn't like them so much, but I wasn't upset to have someone else in my party. (My party was mainly Dog, Wynne, and Zevran). I liked Oghren, too, moreso in Awakenings. And I liked Anders. The others were all right. Sigrun, Justice, that angry elf-lady, and Nathaniel.

In DA:2, though, I loved my entire party. I loved switching it around and having each of them with me for a time. It never felt like a chore to have them with me, gaining friendship/rivalry. Varric never was out of my party. He was must have. And when I no longer needed to build relationships, my party was primarily Anders, Fenris, and Varric. They had great banter with each other.

[Sylvianus]

Ariella wrote...
* Snip *

Thank you for the reply, very good, very intelligent and I can accept that for the context. And otherwise, I didn't know that Kirkwall had volunteered given a neighborhood to Qunari. It's worse, but at least it can justify to me why a foreign power was able to penetrate a sovereign city without being worried.

What still bothers me is that Kirkwall should never have been as such vulnerable from within, threatened by a foreign power within it that it has fully accepted. This foreign presence has made no secret that it despised humans and wasn't obliged to respect their laws if they wanted. Not even increased monitoring of the guards to ward off the worst while the tension grew. On the one hand with the fanatics who were becoming more difficult to control, but also Qunari  who began to loose patience and warns that they will be angry face of such hostility against them.

 If they really decided to tempt fate by bringing home a foreign power, they should be ready for anything, especially when tensions were rising.

But well, a single leader can ruin everything by its own " decisions ", even if a kingdom is affected. So, deal with it.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 07 août 2011 - 04:36 .

[CloudOfShadows]

From DA:O and DA2, my favorite character would be Wynne. Really liked her.

Next after that, it's Bethany - can really like her as a sister.

Least favorite characters are actually the male elves... Probably Fenris even less than Zevran. But generally, I like DA2 characters better than DA:O. Especially since Isabella worked for me, I did like her, but I sort of really disliked Morrigan. Couldn't stand her - which can also be a compliment to whoever made her so dislikable for me

[Krytheos]

It's a 50-50 for me. I loved the complexity of Loghain; completely and utterly, he was by far, my favorite companion [this doesn't count as spoilers , right?] By contrast, I didn't like Alistair much; sweet, kind caring princely guy, but ultimately, unless you romanced him, he came off too childish and naive for me. As the comic relief guy who can actually do good stuff, then yeah, he's pretty cool. Not as complex as I thought he might be, though; absolutely loved Zevran, Sten and Morrigan. Oghren as well, in fact.

They all felt satisfying, and good. Same for Nathaniel in Awakening, though Anders in Awakening didn't really come off strongly, all that much. Liked him for comic relief, not much else. Would've preferred The First as a companion, and had hoped he was a secret companion, but no dice. Damn, my want for a talking darkspawn companion is unsatiated. Even the Messenger didn't get to be a companion. Pity, too.

But I digress.

I felt attached to neither particularly well. Out of companions, though, DA2's resounded decently well. Varric was a true companion to take -everywhere-; Fenris was an interesting romance, and companion, but I also felt his backstory should've went into more detail, because I wanted to know more, so much more. Same for all of DA2's companions. Out of them, I liked Sebastian, Fenris, Varric, Aveline, and yes, even Anders. I still liked Anders in DA2, despite his Awakening experience; what felt lacking originally was lack of true motivation in doing what he did.

Partially remedied in Legacy, which I was overall quite happy with. Lessee. Carver and Bethany wise, I didn't like Bethany. She just felt ehhh. Lacking to me. I honestly couldn't wait to see her off to the Circle or be off to be a Gray Warden. Carver, I felt a lot more connection with; he was a jerk, but he did come off as a sincere brotherly figure, to me. I liked Carver a lot, surprisingly.

Merrill was an interesting companion. Still wish it'd have been a different Dalish companion, honestly, as while she is good as an NPC, her story should've been delegated to a side-quest type of arcing story, really. The ending to her quest was pretty good, but still didn't like her terribly.

Overall, I guess I can say I prefer neither over the other; they're both pretty good, all in all, but could've been much better than they were. But yeah, I liked both games companions just as much as the others.

[snoopy bear]

I would've been happy if the whole game was about getting isabella in the sack. I hope they put in a threeway with her and morrigan in the next one

[K_Tabris]

I am definitely more attached to my main Warden, more than any other Bioware PC. Whether it was a voiced vs. unvoiced issue, I'm not sure. Probably a bit of an exception.

As in every other game I've played made by Bioware, there were characters in DA2 that I preferred over others. Some took awhile for me to become emotionally invested in, some I loved right off the bat, some I changed opinions of once they pulled a crazy. and became a murdering terrorist

Development of relationships in both games seemed to have varied paces. In one run of DA:O, Alistair tried to give my Warden a flower in the Deep Roads, while Morrigan and my Warden were best friends after the first main mission was done. Same with DA2. My Hawke and Aveline felt really tight not long after Act 1 began, whereas it took my Hawke and Sebastien until almost the very end to see eye to eye.

It just depends on how different stories speak to different players. Some people loved Jade Empire, others despised the Eastern setting. Likewise, many people enjoyed Kotor, and I much preferred the character interaction in the sequel.

[Ariella]

Sylvianus wrote...

Ariella wrote...
* Snip *

Thank you for the reply, very good, very intelligent and I can accept that for the context. And otherwise, I didn't know that Kirkwall had volunteered given a neighborhood to Qunari. It's worse, but at least it can justify to me why a foreign power was able to penetrate a sovereign city without being worried.

What still bothers me is that Kirkwall should never have been as such vulnerable from within, threatened by a foreign power within it that it has fully accepted. This foreign presence has made no secret that it despised humans and wasn't obliged to respect their laws if they wanted. Not even increased monitoring of the guards to ward off the worst while the tension grew. On the one hand with the fanatics who were becoming more difficult to control, but also Qunari  who began to loose patience and warns that they will be angry face of such hostility against them.

 If they really decided to tempt fate by bringing home a foreign power, they should be ready for anything, especially when tensions were rising.

But well, a single leader can ruin everything by its own " decisions ", even if a kingdom is affected. So, deal with it.

Consider that the Qunari are just a new factor thrown into the perrenial rivally between the Templars and the mages. Meredith has reason for wanting a weak Viscount, so we have corruption in the office of the Guard, and an inability to rule the city efficiently, so MEredeth can be the so called hero and swoop in (yes swooping is bad). Look and her face and listen to her voice in the end of act 2 if Hawke decides to follow Orisino's advice. She's pissed as hell at having to share power.

[katling73]

I definitely was more attached to my Warden and my DA:O buddies then my Hawke and her DA2 buddies. That's not to say I don't like the DA2 NPCs. Varric and Aveline are my Hawke's surrogate brother and sister but as for the rest, geez, they're hard work. I wanted to like Anders after Awakening but I think I've murder-knifed him in every playthrough except the first (so 1 playthrough he lives, 2 he dies, I've only done 3 playthrough to get a warrior, rogue and mage run). Fenris is definitely hard work, Merril is way too naive, Sebastian way too preachy and Isabella is the Captain Jack Harkness of the DA world without having Captain Jack's charm. (YMMV)

DA:O, on the other hand, I liked all of them, even the ones who annoyed me. Shale was awesome. I just wanted her to not call me 'it' just once!! My Warden always went to Wynne for advice (even if she didn't always take it) and I found Alistair to be adorable and funny right from the get go. I don't get all the Oghren hate either. I had Wynne and Oghren in the same party in the Deep Roads and had to actually stop on a few occasions because I was laughing so hard at their conversation. The one where she offers him soap, a razor and a towel was priceless. But I guess Oghren is definitely a YMMV kind of guy.

[G00N3R7883]

For me the companions were the strength of DA2. They provided lots of emotional moments. Particularly Isabella, Avelline and Anders. And the others, even though I didn't like them as much, were approximately 17 million times more interesting than Sten But I liked Leliana, Morrigan and Wynne alot too. Alistair annoyed me, but I thought it was still good that he got a reaction.

Companions: one of the best things about Bioware RPGs since 1998.

[craigdolphin]

Have to say that, for me, I really didn't like most of the NPC's for DA2. The primary exceptions being Bethany, Varric, and Merril (although not as a LI...eww...too adolescent-looking IMO). Isabella grew on me, but I'm still not a huge fan. The lack of player-inititated dialog outside the home base is a large part of what I blame for the lack of perceived depth: the illusion of them being people was destroyed every time I left their home-base and felt an urge to take 5 and spend it talking to them between fights.

The cast of DAO all felt like true companions: even the ones I felt less enthusiasm for.

[Mallika Surana]

I felt more attached to the entire party of DA:O than DA2. My only exceptions to that are Isabela and Varric, I really enjoyed both characters. Personally, I wanted to shove Merrill off a cliff and after my "evil" playthrough, I really hated Anders and his constant bellyaching about the templars and was totally all over the murder knifing him.

I also feel attached to my Warden so much more than Hawke. I'm not a huge fan of Hawke.

[Caralampio]

I was very much attached to my warden, even if I changed its race/gender/origin and personality from game to game. And I liked all of the DAO companions a lot. I actually felt sad in the final scene when all make their farewells.

In DA2, just Varric. I do love default Bethany's looks, but not her character. And especially not her voice. Or her hands... Yikes!

[bti79]

There was something almost magical about DAO and how the game really pulled me into the universe. That "magic" was just not there in DA2. Characters played a big part in this. Whereas many DAO companions had many layers and felt deep, DA2 characters felt stereotypical and shallow.

The only DA2 character with any kind of depth was Fenris, and even that part felt like not a single thing Hawke did had any real impact on Fenris destiny. Merrils story could have been great, but it felt like it ended before it had begun, and again Hawke didn't make a bit of difference. (Even though he gave her the tool to complete the mirror she never did.)

[Icy Magebane]

Aveline, Carver, Fenris, and Varric were cool... the others, not so much. Compared to DA:O, that's quite a switch, as the only companion I disliked was Leliana (and technically the "secret" companion I guess...). But judging by the threads on this site, I'd say Bioware did a good job overall with the companions in DA2, even if I personally despise most of them.

[Dragoonlordz]

Alistair was the most liked character in DAO due to how well his humour was written going by everyone I know in RL and websites or more accuratley entire fansites about him, others preffered Morrigane but when combined they were truly epic. DA2 on other hand Varric humour wasn't great to me some good jokes but few and far between made me laugh, Merrill just made me want to push her off cliff and Fenris was beyond annoying. Anders was destroyed personality wise even though liked him in DAA hated him in DA2. Avenline annoyed me she was too stuck up (imho) Isabella I thought was good though the rest were 'meh' or 'grrr quit moaning your annoying the hell out of me' types.

The best well written character in DA2 was Arishok he would of been great companion to replace almost everyone else especially Sebastion and Anders who I would have fed to the dog in a heartbeat. Other than Arishok and Isabella I thought all the rest were annoying or stupid (Sandel always funny but he doesn't count here imho). If plan is to make me hate almost every character they succeded by turning them into either annoying gits or emotional baggage.

If had choice from both games my choice would be...

Alistair (DAO), Morrigane (DAO), Isabella (DA2), Anders (DAA), Lelianna (DAO).

If had also more choices would also like to change Sandel and Arishok to companions.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 août 2011 - 09:12 .

[rpgfan321]

I loved my companions from DA:O and DA2!!! Even though I ended up hating Anders, I grew to love each and everyone. I just wished the game allowed more social interactions with the characters in DA2.
I really liked how Hawke could go into an argument with companions unlike DA:O where the chance of losing that NPC was high if you disagreed that much. Sometimes the NPCs need to show a little backbone against the PCs in my opinion.

[Dragoonlordz]

rpgfan321 wrote...

I loved my companions from DA:O and DA2!!! Even though I ended up hating Anders, I grew to love each and everyone. I just wished the game allowed more social interactions with the characters in DA2.
I really liked how Hawke could go into an argument with companions unlike DA:O where the chance of losing that NPC was high if you disagreed that much. Sometimes the NPCs need to show a little backbone against the PCs in my opinion.

Though not same as losing her from group, if you kept bonking (screwing) Morrigane all the time she does get annoyed and cuts you off from sex followed by silent treatment for quite while.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 août 2011 - 10:30 .