43 réponses à ce sujet

[Rahmiel]

Oops.. noticed I'm missing one point in my above build, but it really doesn't change anything. You can put one point into cryo ammo, or into concussive shot, your choice. But I used neither in my games.

I should also mention, that Bourne Endeavour has a great build and is pretty much "the" soldier build. The soldier class does not really require a bonus power, but I found I really liked the playstyle and damage boost of the GSB with a little added extra protection

Also, I should note, that the damage bonus of the improved GSB is only active while your shields are not broken or until 60 seconds is up. This means, that you want to let your shields recharge after you take a little bit of a beating. If you get knocked down to half shields, don't pop out and kill any enemies as it's likely your shields will get broken. Let them recharge then pop out. If you have the capacitor chest piece, sometimes they'll be refilled by the time you reload your weapon.

All in all, it's a nice playstyle that I enjoyed.

[Doriath]

I wouldn't suggest using the barrier/geth shield boost/fortification because they clash with you spamming adrenaline rush. I understand why some players think it would be good looking at it on paper but the long cooldown ends up blocking you from using the power that allows you to output all of your damage.

I don't really take a bonus power for the soldier in the sense that it is or becomes an integral part of my build. I agree that powers like reave and flashbang grenade are effective powers and do work well for the soldier, but I don't really like using any power with a longer cooldown than adrenaline rush because I don't want to be blocked from my main mode of attack for six seconds. For me, one point neural shock is my choice.

When it comes to bonus ammo power, I'm firmly against that mainly because I think its worth getting squad cryo ammo even on insanity. The crowd control aspect from your allies simply firing carnifex/viper/mattock shots into defense stripped enemies is too good to ignore in my opinion. I also never felt it was that great a distance between inferno ammo and tungsten ammo to give up cryo ammo for it.

Modifié par chrisnabal, 23 août 2011 - 02:46 .

[capn233]

Varying opinions. I personally like AP. Necessary? Definitely not. Soldier gets incendiary and disruptor which cover practically everything you run into. You don't get a bonus to barriers, but there aren't many barriers in the game anyway.

The thing is though, as has been said above, there isn't a huge "power vacuum" that needs to be filled on a soldier. A bonus power is a fun bonus, but isn't needed. The reason I like the AP as a bonus is just because I turn it on once and I am not wasting cooldown time with protection powers and I can use adrenaline rush a lot more.

It is true that the bonus isn't really substantially better than incendiary, but it is higher... more noticeable with health damage as AP does damage to health instantly, whereas incendiary is over time. It isn't a huge difference though. I think I agree with the idea above that it is most helpful early if you do not have enough points to put into incendiary. As you get more points it is closer. It sort of depends on what weapons you are using as well (ROF). The panic ability of incendiary doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, it is nice when you have inferno and can pop a couple guys out of cover though.

I don't like warp ammo as a soldier because I think the best use of warp is the bonus on biotic effects. Since you don't have biotics, you would have to rely on biotic squadies to cast those for you. Not a big deal, but you might not be running with biotics. Otherwise using the correct ammo for the target is better.

I sort of like reave as a bonus though. It does a lot of damage to armor and barriers, and has stun effect + fills your health. Only downside is that it gets in the way of AR spamming... and I don't really like my soldier to have biotic powers. He isn't a vanguard afterall

Energy drain is decent. Gives you something like overload but with a fast cooldown, and can redo your shields. But as a soldier I don't care about my shields all that much... and I am more inclined to be taking down shields with squad disruptor + squadie overloads.

GSB isn't really bad, it is just the cooldown that I don't like. If you want to turn it on before a fight, then that 10% damage bonus is nice with improved. The cooldown is just so long. But it would be at the top of my list for defensive powers.

I like the flashbang idea. May have to try that one as a power next time I play soldier.

[geckosentme]

AP ammo is good for the soldier while you haven't unlocked incendiary. Throw it on the predator especially and you can overpower Vorcha regeneration just with ROF and dmg on Omega pretty easily and ignore Jacob's squad incendiary powers if you choose.

I prefer to play as exclusive non-biotic soldier for role-playing reasons and  is no really game changing non-biotic bonus power for the soldier so I usually just keep AP ammo and level it up with my last 9 pts. Will give your sniper rifle extra punch against armored types or soft fleshy things.

But it is largely situational.

Modifié par geckosentme, 27 août 2011 - 03:58 .

[wilhelm Screamer]

I like area shield drain on higher difficulties, it damages your foes and helps you.  Plus it cuts down on the weaksauce foes that have shields nicely, like all the damn mercs you have to keep fighting (and those mechs too).

Modifié par wilhelm Screamer, 27 août 2011 - 09:19 .

[termokanden]

capn233 wrote...

It is true that the bonus isn't really substantially better than incendiary, but it is higher... more noticeable with health damage as AP does damage to health instantly, whereas incendiary is over time. It isn't a huge difference though. I think I agree with the idea above that it is most helpful early if you do not have enough points to put into incendiary. As you get more points it is closer. It sort of depends on what weapons you are using as well (ROF). The panic ability of incendiary doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, it is nice when you have inferno and can pop a couple guys out of cover though.

I made that same argument myself. Higher damage, instant against health. Works against synthetics as well. I changed my mind though. The damage diifference is there, but it really isn't noticable. Against health I think the "I'm burning" effect is worth more than a meager bit of extra damage. And synthetics usually have weak health anyway so I wouldn't worry about missing out there (and if I did worry about that, I'd just use Disruptor).

All that being said, AP Ammo is not really bad. Inferno Ammo is just better. Do not underestimate the panic effect. You may not always notice it, but it can save you. It's painfully obvious in one of the recent shotgun soldier videos I saw - Shep is almost dead and there's an enemy next to him. But the enemy is just dancing because he's on fire. Even if the situation isn't all that dire, it just means you'll have less people shooting at you.

Modifié par termokanden, 28 août 2011 - 04:19 .

[capn233]

I think they are close enough that it is preference, but from messing around with both of them I still maintain you can notice the difference... at least depending on the weapon. I played around respec'ing the soldiers through the campaign a couple of times. After you have achievements you should have enough eezo you could change every mission if you want.

If you equip both on the Revenant, for example, it seems like you are in fact killing faster with AP. Additionally, I don't recall all that many people shooting back when you are blasting them with any sort of ammo. With slow firing weapons, the difference is less since incendiary has time for its effect to happen,  you do get the panic time, and you may not be firing fast enough to keep them from shooting back. As far as crowd control, it never seemed to benefit enough to where I would give up Tungsten.  I usually focus enemies individually, kill one, then the next such that I am quickly reducing their numbers, which is in turn reducing the volume of fire. But on the other hand, I was more than happy to use inferno on my first play through when I had no bonus power. And if I didn't have a bonus I wouldn't be broken up about not having AP since incendiary works well.

AP does work decently against Geth too... Really there isn't much of a difference in killing synthetics between AP and Disruptor either, except disruptor "overloads" synthetics much like incendiary on organics. Switching between ammo types within mission didn't seem to yield much of a difference to me, but I like to use overload on shields if available since it is pretty efficient at stripping them. That and the guns with innate bonus to shields.

At any rate, it is somewhat academic. After the weapons get upgraded, adding some more damage to their base means that they all end up pretty close in damage output anyway. My "lazy" soldier doesn't like to switch ammo powers at all so I just equipped tungsten on basically everything and had squad disruptor on all the time as well. It worked well on insanity as a Revi soldier (5x), once as a Widow soldier. Similar route when I did a Vindi/Viper Infiltrator. Using it now on a Sentinel (although I admit AP is more useful to an Infiltrator or Sentinel since they don't get incendiary).

Modifié par capn233, 28 août 2011 - 05:16 .

[termokanden]

The fire from Inferno spreads and hits enemies you weren't shooting. Those people tend to shoot back.

[ryoldschool]

termokanden wrote...

capn233 wrote...

All that being said, AP Ammo is not really bad. Inferno Ammo is just better. Do not underestimate the panic effect. You may not always notice it, but it can save you. It's painfully obvious in one of the recent shotgun soldier videos I saw - Shep is almost dead and there's an enemy next to him. But the enemy is just dancing because he's on fire. Even if the situation isn't all that dire, it just means you'll have less people shooting at you.

.

I saw this post, and it might have been something similar to this seven second clip from inferno ammo on a viper.

guy next to target catches on fire.

Modifié par ryoldschool, 29 août 2011 - 03:20 .

[termokanden]

I think it may have been one of your videos on Korlus I was thinking about actually. My memory's a bit fuzzy though.

[SpockLives]

Time for number crunching: AP versus Incindiary.  First off, ammo powers only calculate damage based on the unmodified base damage of the gun.  Those +10% damage upgrades you buy don't affect ammo powers, but +% power damage from your class passive skill does.  The Vindicator is a popular gun, so I'll use it to compare these two powers.

According to information gathered from parsing .ini files, the Vindicator's base damage is 36.8.  So let's compare an unmodified Vindicator with Inferno (+60%) and Tungsten (+70%) ammo.  First against health, then against armor (Vindicator does +25% versus armor)
Inferno versus health = 58.88
Tungsten versus health = 62.56
Inferno versus armor = 73.6
Tungsten versus armor = 78.2

So with an unmodified Vindicator, Tungsten ammo gives a noticable bonus.  Now let's compare fully upgraded Vindicators (5/5 damage and assault rifle penetration).
Inferno versus health = 77.28
Tungsten versus health = 80.96
Inferno versus armor = 104.88
Tungsten versus armor = 108.56

Now the numbers are much closer, percentage wise.  The difference in damage to health is only 4.7%.  The difference in damage to armor is a puny 3.5%.  (Can any math people confirm my numbers?  It's 3 AM my time.)  If my sleep-deprived brain did the math right, I don't see any reason to trade crowd control for 3.5% damage.

Now let's really make it complicated.  Heightened Adrenaline Rush adds +140% damage to weapons, but once again the ammo power is unaffected by this.  Fully upgraded Vindicator + Heightened Adrenaline rush comparison.
Inferno versus health = 154.56
Tungsten versus health = 158.24
Inferno versus armor = 220.8
Tungsten versus armor = 224.48

Now our difference in damage to health under Adrenaline Rush is 2.3%, and against armor it is 1.66%.  So, is it worth picking Armor Piercing Ammo for a class that has Incindiary ammo?  I wouldn't bother.  (PS, I didn't feel like checking to see what sort of bonus to weapon and power damage the Soldier's class passive gives.  Someone else can do that .)

Modifié par SpockLives, 29 août 2011 - 08:15 .

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

SpockLives wrote...

Time for number crunching: AP versus Incindiary.  First off, ammo powers only calculate damage based on the unmodified base damage of the gun.  Those +10% damage upgrades you buy don't affect ammo powers, but +% power damage from your class passive skill does.  The Vindicator is a popular gun, so I'll use it to compare these two powers.

It's worth noting that +power damage bonuses from gear or passive skills are added to the ammo power damage percentage. Thus, the 15% power damage bonus you get for wearing the Blood Dragon Armor will boost Tungsten's 70% to 85%; or Inferno's 60% to 75%. Weapon upgrades and bonuses have no effect on ammo powers (Miranda's passive has no effect, for example).

According to information gathered from parsing .ini files, the Vindicator's base damage is 36.8.  So let's compare an unmodified Vindicator with Inferno (+60%) and Tungsten (+70%) ammo.  First against health, then against armor (Vindicator does +25% versus armor)
Inferno versus health = 58.88
Tungsten versus health = 62.56
Inferno versus armor = 73.6
Tungsten versus armor = 78.2

So with an unmodified Vindicator, Tungsten ammo gives a noticable bonus.  Now let's compare fully upgraded Vindicators (5/5 damage and assault rifle penetration).
Inferno versus health = 77.28
Tungsten versus health = 80.96
Inferno versus armor = 104.88
Tungsten versus armor = 108.56

I don't know how you got to those numbers - but this is how it works AFAIK

Vindicator base damage = 36.8 and receives a 1.25 modifier against all defenses (default). Thus, an unmodified Vindicator will inflict 36.8 dmg against health; and 36.8 * 1.25 = 46 dmg against shields, barriers, and armor.

Inferno Ammo's damage is calculated using the base damage only. This means that throughout the entire game, Inferno Ammo will add 60% of 36.8 = 22 to the total damage. An unmodified Vindi did 46 damage against armor; combined with Inferno Ammo that becomes (46+22=) 68  > that's an effective 48% increase (not 60%) in damage.

Now we add the upgrades. There are 7 AR upgrades and the bonus upgrade adds another 25% against all defenses (bonuses from passives, like Miranda's, are added to the upgrades - so with 2 AR upgrades and Miranda, you'll get an 20 + 15 = 35% total damage bonus. Basically, Miranda acts like one and a half AR upgrade). Thus a fully spec'ed Vindi inflicts 36.8 + 70% (or + 85% with Miranda) = 62.56 (68.08) damage against health; and (36.8 + 70%) * 1.5 = 93.84 against armor.

With Inferno Ammo, damage against health becomes 62.56 + 22 = 84.56 (a 35% increase)
With Inferno Ammo, damage against armor becomes 93.84 + 22 = 115.84 (a 23% increase)

At the start of ME2 and assuming one either cheats to max Inferno Ammo immediately or plays NG+, one receives a 60% damage bonus against health and a 48% damage bonus against armor. Near the end of the game (with most upgrades collected) those percentages go down to 35 and 23 % respectively (they'll drop even lower when you use weapon damage boosting gear, passives and Miranda).

The difference between Inferno and Tungsten Ammo is neglectible. We're talking about a percentage or two here, that's not something you can notice in-game. Inferno's CC effect is its most important feature (something Tungsten lacks) and therefore beats Tungsten easily. In fact, the CC effect is the only truly useful feature of Inferno Ammo (and all other ammo powers). It allows Vanguards to Charge 3 goons; shoot the one in the middle and the other two other (nearby) enemies will be doing the fire-dance

Now the numbers are much closer, percentage wise.  The difference in damage to health is only 4.7%.  The difference in damage to armor is a puny 3.5%.  (Can any math people confirm my numbers?  It's 3 AM my time.)  If my sleep-deprived brain did the math right, I don't see any reason to trade crowd control for 3.5% damage.

Now let's really make it complicated.  Heightened Adrenaline Rush adds +140% damage to weapons, but once again the ammo power is unaffected by this.  Fully upgraded Vindicator + Heightened Adrenaline rush comparison.
Inferno versus health = 154.56
Tungsten versus health = 158.24
Inferno versus armor = 220.8
Tungsten versus armor = 224.48

Now our difference in damage to health under Adrenaline Rush is 2.3%, and against armor it is 1.66%.  So, is it worth picking Armor Piercing Ammo for a class that has Incindiary ammo?  I wouldn't bother.  (PS, I didn't feel like checking to see what sort of bonus to weapon and power damage the Soldier's class passive gives.  Someone else can do that .)

I don't know how you got those numbers, but stuff like Cloak and ARush have no impact on the weapon-ammo damage ratio. Heightened ARush adds 140% damage to both weapons and ammo power damage; the 100% point blank range damage bonus affect both weapon and ammo damage (both are doubled but percentages remain the same).

Overall, ammo powers add little in terms of damage. Using 10 skill points to receive a 20-25% damage bonus against armor is a big investment and not worth it when there are other powers available to upgrade. It's also important to remember percentages an sich mean nothing. There is no (gameplay) difference between having to shoot 3.01 times or 3.99 times - you always have to shoot 4 bullets to kill the target. Only when the extra ammo power damage saves a shot it's worth it, which can be the case with stuff like sniper rifles - for example, but has little impact on SMGs or AR's due to their high rate of fire.

[SpockLives]

Bozorgmehr 2.0 wrote...

SpockLives wrote...

Now the numbers are much closer, percentage wise.  The difference in damage to health is only 4.7%.  The difference in damage to armor is a puny 3.5%.  (Can any math people confirm my numbers?  It's 3 AM my time.)  If my sleep-deprived brain did the math right, I don't see any reason to trade crowd control for 3.5% damage.

Now let's really make it complicated.  Heightened Adrenaline Rush adds +140% damage to weapons, but once again the ammo power is unaffected by this.  Fully upgraded Vindicator + Heightened Adrenaline rush comparison.
Inferno versus health = 154.56
Tungsten versus health = 158.24
Inferno versus armor = 220.8
Tungsten versus armor = 224.48

Now our difference in damage to health under Adrenaline Rush is 2.3%, and against armor it is 1.66%.  So, is it worth picking Armor Piercing Ammo for a class that has Incindiary ammo?  I wouldn't bother.  (PS, I didn't feel like checking to see what sort of bonus to weapon and power damage the Soldier's class passive gives.  Someone else can do that .)

I don't know how you got those numbers, but stuff like Cloak and ARush have no impact on the weapon-ammo damage ratio. Heightened ARush adds 140% damage to both weapons and ammo power damage; the 100% point blank range damage bonus affect both weapon and ammo damage (both are doubled but percentages remain the same).

Overall, ammo powers add little in terms of damage. Using 10 skill points to receive a 20-25% damage bonus against armor is a big investment and not worth it when there are other powers available to upgrade. It's also important to remember percentages an sich mean nothing. There is no (gameplay) difference between having to shoot 3.01 times or 3.99 times - you always have to shoot 4 bullets to kill the target. Only when the extra ammo power damage saves a shot it's worth it, which can be the case with stuff like sniper rifles - for example, but has little impact on SMGs or AR's due to their high rate of fire.

I got the base damage of the Vindicator from the wiki, so all numbers are subject to being completely wrong.  I did math at 3 AM, that's how I got some of those results, .  Although in the Gamplay Data thread, Eric ****nan explains Adrenaline Rush.

Eric ****nan wrote...


Distance multipliers for weapons multiply the final damage number with all upgrades. For example, shotguns will do x2 of the total damage at a very close range.

Adrenaline Rush behaves the same way; it multiplies the total weapon damage you do.

Keep in mind that ammo powers are still a completely separate damage call. Adrenaline Rush does not affect ammo power damage. Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon
upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. It's worth noting that ammo powers do get a distance multiplier like weapons. This was done to keep ammo power
damage consistent, so when we say that an ammo power does X% of weapon damage, that is true for any range because it shares the distance multiplier of the weapon.

I may be reading this wrong, but this says to me that AR boosts weapon damage but not ammo power damage.

Modifié par SpockLives, 29 août 2011 - 01:41 .

[thisisme8]

Simply put, no. Out of all the classes, the Soldier benefits the least from a bonus power.

[Bozorgmehr 2.0]

SpockLives wrote...

Eric ****nan wrote...

Distance multipliers for weapons multiply the final damage number with all upgrades. For example, shotguns will do x2 of the total damage at a very close range.

Adrenaline Rush behaves the same way; it multiplies the total weapon damage you do.

Keep in mind that ammo powers are still a completely separate damage call. Adrenaline Rush does not affect ammo power damage. Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. It's worth noting that ammo powers do get a distance multiplier like weapons. This was done to keep ammo power damage consistent, so when we say that an ammo power does X% of weapon damage, that is true for any range because it shares the distance multiplier of the weapon.

I may be reading this wrong, but this says to me that AR boosts weapon damage but not ammo power damage.

The info is still incomplete. We know ammo powers do receive distance multipliers to keep ammo power damage consistent - as Eric put it. If this is true for the distance multiplier I can't see why it wouldn't be true for something like ARush or Cloak. If their damage bonus wouldn't affect ammo powers at all that would mean all ammo power effects are cut in half (Hardened ARush) or worse (Heightened) - not likely and not what I experienced playing ME2.

It's interesting though, technically you can go nuts with those multipliers. Most shotguns receive a 100% damage bonus against shields and barrier (also against health when you Pull enemies first); you can get another 100% at point blank range; another 140% with ARush; and then there's still the headshot bonus ...

My guess is that ammo powers work like they do with distance. That doesn't mean something like ARush affects ammo power damage (the part you highlighted in Eric's post), but it does mean that the total extra damage you get through ammo is also increased by 140% (Heightened ARush) - just like how it works with the distance multiplier. That also ensures the ammo power damage effects always remain consistent.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr 2.0, 29 août 2011 - 05:55 .

[ryoldschool]

I thought I was pretty clear about the Arush/ammo power calc until I re-read that post of Eric's. It seems off that they would make the calculation so difficult. The programmer probably just calculates all the damage according to the rules, then doubles it if close range, and multiplies by 2.4 if its under Arush. Its a lot of damage.

[capn233]

I suppose I remain unconvinced. Perhaps I will play a soldier yet again and do more back to back testing. As it is, the enemies aren't always clumped anyway so splash damage from inferno is much of the time wasted. Streams of husks, sure, they tend to file in and you can reliably hit several targets, but on the open levels, you don't always get the opportunity to splash multiple badguys anyway.

Consider synthetics. Disruptor is more appropriate versus Synthetics, but taken as a whole you will end up with a choice between Squad Disruptor and Heavy Disruptor... in combination with either Inferno or Tungsten for synthetic missions (as I think squad incendiary or AP is moving further from optimal). Heavy Disruptor has comparable damage to Tungsten against synthetics + stun. Inferno is mildly weaker against synthetics. To me it seems that the synthetic missions are easier with multiple weapons firing disruptor ammo + tungsten, although squad disruptor + inferno wouldn't be too far behind. You could bring a teammate with disruptor, like Zaeed, but I don't like wasting points on ammo powers for squadmates as a soldier anyway.

Likewise, you can get the weapon overheat bonus against organics with the squad disruptor and keep tungsten for yourself for max damage. Or you can spend the 20pts on disruptor and Inferno and have more effects against organics and kill synthetics slower.

I stated in my first post that I didn't think AP was necessary for a soldier. Still will not try to make that claim. But I don't think inferno is vastly superior, or for that matter even superior as a generalization. Better sometimes, worse sometimes.  And the damage difference is noticeable with the rapid fire weapons... noticeable, not drastic.

The best case against it is that a bonus ammo power is redundant on a soldier, but none of the other choices are all that great either so it is a wash.

"Out of all the classes, the Soldier benefits the least from a bonus power."
This is true.

Modifié par capn233, 30 août 2011 - 12:06 .

[thisisme8]

Look at it like this:

Taking an Bonus Ammo Power on a Soldier is like telling a Ninja, "You can choose the ability to shield yourself, hold enemies in stasis, leech the life from them, or - and hear me out - you could have a sword that is slightly sharper than the other 5 swords that you already have."

Modifié par thisisme8, 30 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Well, an AP Ammo diehard is better than a Concussive Shot diehard..

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:54 .