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The Geth: Are they an abomination?


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#351
xxSgt_Reed_24xx

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elearon1 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

@Elearon
Someone didn't pay attention.... that was only a FACTION of the Geth. Just like how Cerberus doesn't represent every human.


The Geth who teamed with Sovereign were only a faction, but those that destroyed everything entering Geth space were not.  And if a gang of walking ipods came through your town and wiped out your friends and people, I doubt you'd be quick to make a distinction between the Faction and the rest.  

Besides which, the issue wasn't "should all Geth be exterminated regardless of their actions" it was, "despite this little fantasy people have made up, Geth are not peaceful".  (neither are humans, but it isn't the humans I'm at war with in the first game) 

Despite this, even my Shep doesn't consider them "abominations", she considers them a threat to be dealt with.



Better get to wiping out the turians and the batarians while you're at it then. 

#352
TobyHasEyes

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@xxSgt_Reed: Do you hate ALL Batarians? I bet you do... even though a "faction" of them are slavers.


 I don't, and I think Sgt_Reed's argument holds

#353
Pulletlamer

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TobyHasEyes wrote...


 They don't want coexistance, they want to be left alone. Legion was only sent out to find Shepard because they recognised the Reapers as a common enemy


Still you can't leave them alone forever and be like if you don't know eachoter, what if you actually have to travel across geth space? What if geth start thinking about going to the Citadel?

What will happen when they realize they need something organics have, or the other way around? You can't be in your own forever (look at Corea, for example). There's two options: peace or war.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 31 juillet 2011 - 02:50 .


#354
xxSgt_Reed_24xx

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Medhia Nox wrote...

@xxSgt_Reed: Do you hate ALL Batarians? I bet you do... even though a "faction" of them are slavers.


I don't hate the rest of the batarians.... hell, I'd like a batarian squad mate and to be able to recruit their help against the reapers. 

#355
Medhia Nox

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Okay - then I stand corrected (at least where you're concerned).

But I think a large portion of this population has a double standard where the Geth/Batarians are concerned.

===

But still, "why" is sentience some sacrosanct quality that instantly makes the Geth worthy - whereas before, they were machines.

We currently corral mass quantities of domesticated livestock in brutal conditions and commit atrocities upon them - and science suggests that one day we might have to accept they have sentience (the term is more philosophical than scientific).

Are you all vegans?

Is it the fact that "it seems so human" the taboo people can't get around?

===

Again, I have no hardon for killing Geth.

While I did destroy the Heretics (instead of re-write them) - I don't think they're "abominations" and I don't have some deep moral abhorrence for them as if to say: "They are against God."

But I don't understand why sentience (used in this thread to suggest "human" styled sentience) - suddenly elevates the Geth from a microwave - to a microwave who's "rights" should be considered.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:28 .


#356
Lotion Soronarr

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A pox on them I say!

Rape their houses, burn their women and kill their horses!....

#357
TobyHasEyes

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Pulletlamer wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...


 They don't want coexistance, they want to be left alone. Legion was only sent out to find Shepard because they recognised the Reapers as a common enemy


Still you can't leave them alone forever and be like if you don't know eachoter, what if you actually have to travel across geth space? What if geth start thinking about going to the Citadel?

What will happen when they realize they need something organics have, or the other way around? You can't be in your own forever (look at Corea, for example). There's two options: peace or war.


 Seems an odd policy to me; we can't be sure how relations will stand in the long term, though they profess a peaceful desire to be left alone. Lets attack them now as war is inevitable

 I mean, I get that if all-out war is inevitable you might want to instigate the fight in your terms to ensure minimum casualties for your side, but that policy really only holds water if  this war is wholly inevitable

 They have, independently, constructed Legion so as to make contact with organics, so they are in no way beyond diplomacy. Indeed, although the Geth undoubtedly have a very different mindset, the most stark difference in outcome observable thus far is that they allowed the Heretics to leave, a more peaceful and diplomatic reaction than many organics would have

 The professed aims of the true geth is to, in isolation, enter some form of shared consciousness (which has been likened to a Dyson sphere). That does not concern organic species. Furthermore, they consider leeching off the technology of others as the wrong direction to take, as such they are unlikely to see much interest in our technology or the Citadel

 My point is that our best understanding of the True Geth raises no concerns for future conflict, except that they reach different conclusions to us, and in a different manner (and past disagreements in the geth have been peaceful). To wipe them out for fear that one day, for some reason, they might attack us, seems somewhat baseless

#358
Gill Kaiser

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The geth are one of the more interesting species in Mass Effect, and are absolutely not abominations.

If they succeed in uploading to a single megastructure, they'll be a single being of unimaginable intelligence and sophistication. The most interesting thing in our galaxy.

#359
Clonedzero

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well yeah, they are abominations.

nothing really wrong with that though, as long as the friendly ones are friendly and dont go all "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!" on everyone.

#360
Travie

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'Abomination' in this context is just a silly religious term, which only makes sense from a religious context.

If something is intelligent it has value, there is no magic being that decides what deserves to live.

#361
Lotion Soronarr

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Likewise, there's no magic being that determine if something HAS value.

Rights? Values? Those things only exist If I give them to you or you take them from me... (cyinical reponse)

#362
Pulletlamer

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TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Seems an odd policy to me; we can't be sure how relations will stand in the long term, though they profess a peaceful desire to be left alone. Lets attack them now as war is inevitable

 I mean, I get that if all-out war is inevitable you might want to instigate the fight in your terms to ensure minimum casualties for your side, but that policy really only holds water if  this war is wholly inevitable

 They have, independently, constructed Legion so as to make contact with organics, so they are in no way beyond diplomacy. Indeed, although the Geth undoubtedly have a very different mindset, the most stark difference in outcome observable thus far is that they allowed the Heretics to leave, a more peaceful and diplomatic reaction than many organics would have

 The professed aims of the true geth is to, in isolation, enter some form of shared consciousness (which has been likened to a Dyson sphere). That does not concern organic species. Furthermore, they consider leeching off the technology of others as the wrong direction to take, as such they are unlikely to see much interest in our technology or the Citadel

 My point is that our best understanding of the True Geth raises no concerns for future conflict, except that they reach different conclusions to us, and in a different manner (and past disagreements in the geth have been peaceful). To wipe them out for fear that one day, for some reason, they might attack us, seems somewhat baseless


Well no I'm not saying that is what will happen, nor I am sure they will attack organics. I'm just guessing and bringing up possibilities. I don't think attacking the geth willing to exterminate them "to be safe" is the solution.

What I think it's they really are a threat. They should be seen as that. They're not like tame dogs. They were created by the quarians with a purpose (servitude) and they rebelled. They can be reprogramed or conviced (sovereign) and look at the consequences.

What I mean is coexistance is a difficult option. And the no-coexistance (or isolation) you're suggesting won't work in my opinion. Therefore I don't know what could be the solution but I think it should be something that satisfaces both ways. And since I think that would probably giving advanced tech to the geth and seeing that organics don't have that, the chances they would actually take the upper hand at the least oportunity and try to destroy organics increase greatly.

They are dangerous. Everything about them is dangerous. They hack technology easily, reproduce easily and are very hard to kill. They also share thoughts and data at the speed of light.

And why would they restrict themselves to peaceful coexistance when they can take the upper hand?
I think if they were ever to build a consensus they could see exterminig the other races as a viable option.

Therefore they can be considered threat, abominations of nature, or whatever you want to call them.

Also what organic species would agree to coexist and consider as equal individuals a bunch of machines? Little.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 31 juillet 2011 - 06:20 .


#363
Kaiser Shepard

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If geth are to be considered abominations, then so are (non-asari) biotics. Hell, I'd probably consider the latter to be the more dangerous group of the two.

#364
Guest_KaidanWilliamsShepard_*

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No, they are simply, a far superior group of antagonists than the collectors could ever be.

Modifié par KaidanWilliamsShepard, 31 juillet 2011 - 08:26 .


#365
SalsaDMA

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A pox on them I say!

Rape their houses, burn their women and kill their horses!....


I'd be interested to hear how you would actually facilitate that :P

#366
Archereon

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Medhia Nox wrote...

Okay - then I stand corrected (at least where you're concerned).

But I think a large portion of this population has a double standard where the Geth/Batarians are concerned.

===

But still, "why" is sentience some sacrosanct quality that instantly makes the Geth worthy - whereas before, they were machines.

We currently corral mass quantities of domesticated livestock in brutal conditions and commit atrocities upon them - and science suggests that one day we might have to accept they have sentience (the term is more philosophical than scientific).

Are you all vegans?

Is it the fact that "it seems so human" the taboo people can't get around?

===

Again, I have no hardon for killing Geth.

While I did destroy the Heretics (instead of re-write them) - I don't think they're "abominations" and I don't have some deep moral abhorrence for them as if to say: "They are against God."

But I don't understand why sentience (used in this thread to suggest "human" styled sentience) - suddenly elevates the Geth from a microwave - to a microwave who's "rights" should be considered.


The difference between us and presumably the geth and livestock is that we (us and the geth) are sapient as well as sentient, which is to say, we are capable of percieving subjectivity.  Yes, that is a very big deal.  Only a few animals besides humans are believed to be sapient, among them are dolphins and gorrillas.  Both of which are rated very close to humans on the "value" scale. 

Modifié par Archereon, 31 juillet 2011 - 07:49 .


#367
Medhia Nox

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@Archereon - So, you possess a trait that you have deemed "a very big deal" (or are you suggesting that an outside source has proclaimed it a "very big deal"?) - and, so long as the Geth acquire this special trait, you will deem them worthy. But otherwise - they are akin to livestock?

#368
KainrycKarr

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The Geth are no more unnatural than any other man-created thing.

Are they dangerous? They obviously can be.

#369
LTiberious

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The Geth are a result of organic evolution, and thus - are a normal thing.

Its like calling poop an abomination to its kind because it's purple (epic poop).

Same goes for geth. Live with it.

#370
Guest_Luc0s_*

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Medhia Nox wrote...

Okay - then I stand corrected (at least where you're concerned).

But I think a large portion of this population has a double standard where the Geth/Batarians are concerned.

===

But still, "why" is sentience some sacrosanct quality that instantly makes the Geth worthy - whereas before, they were machines.

We currently corral mass quantities of domesticated livestock in brutal conditions and commit atrocities upon them - and science suggests that one day we might have to accept they have sentience (the term is more philosophical than scientific).

Are you all vegans?

Is it the fact that "it seems so human" the taboo people can't get around?

===

Again, I have no hardon for killing Geth.

While I did destroy the Heretics (instead of re-write them) - I don't think they're "abominations" and I don't have some deep moral abhorrence for them as if to say: "They are against God."

But I don't understand why sentience (used in this thread to suggest "human" styled sentience) - suddenly elevates the Geth from a microwave - to a microwave who's "rights" should be considered.


As a matter of fact I am indeed mostly vegan. I'm vegetarian. I drink soy milk and I only eat eggs from the local farmer, who treats his chickens right.

I believe EVERY SENTIENT THING deserves rights. That includes animals and that includes geth.

The geth aren't just a microwave anymore, they are sentient self-aware beings like you, me and some animals. 

#371
Medhia Nox

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Are we celebrating poop now?

Poop is a waste product... and it would behoove us to consider it "an abomination" so that we will properly dispose of it.

Celebrating poop and wondering "how it feels about being disposed of" would only lead to plague.

===

Cancer is a result of organic evolution - go and tell a cancer patient "What you're going through is normal - live with it."

Coldly - what they're going through is normal. But you'd be a monster for telling someone that.

===

@Lucos: Plants aren't sentient? I'll do some research - when I find some articles suggesting that they are, what will you do? Die? ((Unless you mean - Sentient like a human - in which case, that's the pinnical of species arrogance))

When you eat a tomatoe - you're eating an egg.

When you're cutting down trees to make your home - you're taking lives.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 juillet 2011 - 08:39 .


#372
SandTrout

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So, can we agree that the general consensus is that the Geth are not 'abominations', then?

/thread

#373
Medhia Nox

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@SandTrout - agreed.

#374
Guest_KaidanWilliamsShepard_*

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SandTrout wrote...

So, can we agree that the general consensus is that the Geth are not 'abominations', then?

/thread


Just because you (1 person) don't have anything else to add to the conversation, doesnt mean it should be locked or ignored.Image IPB

Modifié par KaidanWilliamsShepard, 31 juillet 2011 - 08:45 .


#375
Guest_Luc0s_*

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SalsaDMA wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

1) The fact that the geth don't behave the way they were intended to doesn't mean they're glitching or malfunctioning. A glitch or malfunction is an error in the system. The geth "waking up" isn't an error in the system. It's simply the result of the expanding neural-network, something the quarians knew was possible but they didn't realize it would happen so soon.

When I overclock my CPU it let my CPU run faster than originally intended by Intel. Does that mean my CPU is now glitching or malfunctioning? No, of course not.


I take it you never dealt with software design?

A program behaving in an un-intentional way is a program that is not functioning as intended, and thus malfunctioning. Anything that is not part of intended design is a bug. Some bugs are malign, some are benign, and some just doesn't matter. It does not change the premise of a bug being a bug.

Your example is void, btw. By purposfully overclocking your CPU YOU are 'reprogramming' it for an intended effect. Doesn't matter that it shipped in a prior state when you actively reprogram it. Your CPU blowing up because of you overclocking it, however, would indicate a malfunction because of an effect happening that was not intended with the reprogramming.

The Geth were never intended to 'wake up with sentience', they were purely meant to be a tool to lighten the load of the quarians. That the quarians were taking too big risks in their designs and failed to understand their own design routines proper is just a case of them being careless and shoddy when making their designs; not that the effect was intended.


As a matter of fact I study 'game design' at an university for art and technology, so yes, I deal with software design on a daily basis.

Okay sure, even if we take what you said for fact and admit that the geth waking up was a "bug", would that really justify the argument that the geth are "just machines"? No! The geth might be machines, but they are no longer "just machines", they are sentient, self-aware beings that are essentially alive, like you and me. Therfor they no longer should be treated as mere "things", they should be treated as persons or living individuals.