677 réponses à ce sujet

[LTiberious]

well.... ok, lets goanother way - cars versus carriages... Cars are more dangerous... but are more useful.

Same goes for geth. Dangerous - yes. But can you imagine what it is to work with a geth scientist? Another type of mind allows different inventions, not accesible trough human research, which is affected by emotion more than reason

///

Cancer? its fine, just like a cold, or any other disease. But it cannot be used for a good thing, welll.. unless you need to kill people, right? So it should be fixed.But the geth have huge potetal in them.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

LOL sorry but no, the geth ARE sentient and no, the geth AREN'T glitching computer programs.

They are behaving in a manner they were never intended to. They are malfunctioning. Glitching, if you will.

What do you mean they aren't behaving in a manner that the Quarians intended?
Tali specifically states that they were designed to become more intelligent by working in concert with other Geth.

Just because the Quarians never thought about the consequences of allowing programs to improve their own intelligence to the point or sentience by working in large enough numbers does not mean that they were malfunctioning.

The geth's ability to attain sentience was created intentionally by the Quarians.  That is why they lost their council embassy.  AI technology is illegal.

[Malanek]

Luc0s wrote...
Some people argued that the geth are an abomination and should be exterminated because they are unnatural and potentially dangerous. I disagree and in my opinion the geth are in essence as natural as you and me.

Haven't read much of this thread. They definately are unnatural and highly dangerous. That is unargueable. That doesn't mean they should be exterminated though. The fact they have existed for hundreds of years gives them the right to continue to exist. Hopefully in a more diplomatic way in the furture.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Legion being obsessed with Shepard is a sign of sentience.

No it isn't. Neither are any of the other things you listed.

Legion seeking out Shepard is just the geth network trying to gain more data about an enemy (old machines and Heretics). Nothing special about a computer program trying to learn. We can do that already.

Legion looking for Shepard is not a sign of sentience.  However, being unable to rationalize his reason for picking up a piece of Shepards armor at that specific point in time is.
If he were simply a machine, he would have a definitive reason as to why he needed that shoulder piece. All he can come up with is "data not available".
He acted in an irrational matter.  Not sentient life cannot do this.

To your rock example, a rock cannot do anything but sit and be a rock.  It stood to reason that if I went to kick a rock, and it moved out of the way, that it has some form of intelligence.
If I apologized, and said rock asked me to be it's friend because I was nice to it, it would be sentient. But rocks don't do that.
The Geth can.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Heck, the very question "Do these units have a soul?" is a sign of sentience!

No, it is just a question. It doesn't inherently mean anything.

For every action you ascribe sentient or emotion to I can find a much more mundane explanation.

"I doubt it's anything more than a convenient field repair." - Miranda Lawson

Yes, because Miranda Lawson is now the foremost expert on the Geth.  The quarians know more about the Geth then anyone else in the galaxy, and even THEY CAN'T DECIDE on whether they are just machines or a sentient life form.

And I'm sure if you talked to a Reaper or to a geth, that they could ascribe more mundane explanations as to our sentience. Such as emotion being a series of complex chemical reactions that occur within our brain to make us behave in such a way as to further the odds of overall survival of our species.

[didymos1120]

Sisterofshane wrote...

The geth's ability to attain sentience was created intentionally by the Quarians. 

Um, no.  For it to be intentional, it has to be, well, intended.  The entire geth story is all about unintended consequences.  Doesn't matter that the quarians purposefully made the modifications that allowed the geth to become sapient.  It only matters that they neither desired nor expected what resulted.

[SandTrout]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

LOL sorry but no, the geth ARE sentient and no, the geth AREN'T glitching computer programs.

They are behaving in a manner they were never intended to. They are malfunctioning. Glitching, if you will.

What do you mean they aren't behaving in a manner that the Quarians intended?
Tali specifically states that they were designed to become more intelligent by working in concert with other Geth.

Just because the Quarians never thought about the consequences of allowing programs to improve their own intelligence to the point or sentience by working in large enough numbers does not mean that they were malfunctioning.

The geth's ability to attain sentience was created intentionally by the Quarians. That is why they lost their council embassy. AI technology is illegal.

On this point, I have to side with Saphra in regarding Geth Sapience as a 'bug'. The Quarians never had the 'intent' of creating true AI. The intent of their development of the Geth neural network was to increase the processing efficiency of Geth VI. Their intent was similar to adding more processing cores to a single CPU, or using torrents to make downloads more efficient.

The means by which the Geth attained sapience was not made by accident, but the fact that it could be used by the Geth to attain sapience was an unexpected consequence. In this manner, Geth Sapience is a bug, or a mistake in the design of the programing.

[Sisterofshane]

didymos1120 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The geth's ability to attain sentience was created intentionally by the Quarians. 

Um, no.  For it to be intentional, it has to be, well, intended.  The entire geth story is all about unintended consequences.  Doesn't matter that the quarians purposefully made the modifications that allowed the geth to become sapient.  It only matters that they neither desired nor expected what resulted.

Yes it was.  The Quarians fully intended for the Geth to be able to become more intelligent by working en masse, making them capable of higher functions and more complex tasks.  It was this that made the ability to become sentient possible.The Quarians INTENDED increasing intelligence.  To "not intend" this to lead to sentience is just ignorance.

And to point out my original argument, this does not mean in any way that Geth Sentience was a malfunctioning of their programming.  They were doing EXACTLY what they were programmed (INTENDED) to do.

[Malanek]

Sisterofshane wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The geth's ability to attain sentience was created intentionally by the Quarians. 

Um, no.  For it to be intentional, it has to be, well, intended.  The entire geth story is all about unintended consequences.  Doesn't matter that the quarians purposefully made the modifications that allowed the geth to become sapient.  It only matters that they neither desired nor expected what resulted.

Yes it was.  The Quarians fully intended for the Geth to be able to become more intelligent by working en masse, making them capable of higher functions and more complex tasks.  It was this that made the ability to become sentient possible.The Quarians INTENDED increasing intelligence.  To "not intend" this to lead to sentience is just ignorance.

And to point out my original argument, this does not mean in any way that Geth Sentience was a malfunctioning of their programming.  They were doing EXACTLY what they were programmed (INTENDED) to do.

The Geth were not intended to become sentient. They were designed to be as advanced as possible without doing so, but started to do so when networked with additional Geth. This was UNINTENTIONAL.

[P912]

The geth are a sentient race who have a lot to offer the galaxy. My main goal for ME3 is to unite the quarians and the geth. From what Legion says it seems possible, and Tali has worked well with Legion in ME2. It's just the heretics we have to worry about

[AtreiyaN7]

Sisterofshane wrote...


They are behaving in a manner they were never intended to. They are malfunctioning. Glitching, if you will.

Would a "glitching" program ask its quarian master if it had a soul? Would a "glitching" program somehow split into two disparate factions with differing beliefs? Would a "glitching" program attempt to save Shepard? There's a little too much going on to believe that everything the geth have done and are is simply a matter of a malfunction.

They're sentient in my opinion. They've acted of their own free will, and they're capable of intelligent thought and discussion. They can make plans vis-a-vis later conversations you can have with Legion indicatting that the orthodox geth wish to basically create a gigantic uber-mind or however you wish to describe it. They have their own social organization/interactions.

The orthodox geth certainly don't seem to have any inherent hatred of organics or lingering resentment towards the quarians either, which is surprising in comparison to the attitude of the quarians. If anything, I think Legion's orthodx geth seem a little saner than quarians like Admiral Xen. who wishes to enslave the geth and treat them as tools/slaves again instead of making peace with the quarians' "children" (if you will).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

All sentience is a game of luck and chance. We were lucky to become sentient it could have easily gone the other way, our intellegence could have stopped and we'd still be monkeys picking flees, we got lucky and we became more and more intellegent. The fact their sentient wasn't intended just makes them more like us because sentience is never a design of evolution its something that just happens to those lucky enough.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

LOL sorry but no, the geth ARE sentient and no, the geth AREN'T glitching computer programs.

They are behaving in a manner they were never intended to. They are malfunctioning. Glitching, if you will.

What do you mean they aren't behaving in a manner that the Quarians intended?
Tali specifically states that they were designed to become more intelligent by working in concert with other Geth.

Just because the Quarians never thought about the consequences of allowing programs to improve their own intelligence to the point or sentience by working in large enough numbers does not mean that they were malfunctioning.

The geth's ability to attain sentience was created intentionally by the Quarians. That is why they lost their council embassy. AI technology is illegal.

On this point, I have to side with Saphra in regarding Geth Sapience as a 'bug'. The Quarians never had the 'intent' of creating true AI. The intent of their development of the Geth neural network was to increase the processing efficiency of Geth VI. Their intent was similar to adding more processing cores to a single CPU, or using torrents to make downloads more efficient.

The means by which the Geth attained sapience was not made by accident, but the fact that it could be used by the Geth to attain sapience was an unexpected consequence. In this manner, Geth Sapience is a bug, or a mistake in the design of the programing.

The quarians "intended" to use the Geth as slaves.  I figured it similar to the way that we used  horses to pull heavy loads.  They needed them to have increasing intelligence in order to perform the increasingly various and complex tasks that they wanted done.  I can rationalize that increasing one's intelligence enough might result in sapience.  So therefore, it wasn't that the Quarians never intended this to be an eventual outcome -- it was that they were ignorant to the possible consequences of such an action, probably at the time because the prospect of not creating the Neural Network was just too inconvienent.

Besides, sapience didn't occur overnight.  It developed over time (how long I don't know).  Legion even states that the Geth asked questions like "Do I have a soul?" long before it ever scared the Quarians into action. Meaning all evidence pointed into what the Geth were becoming, and the Quarians still ignored it until it was too late.

Ignorance =/= unintention

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I want to run around on Legions Dyson sphere and yell "WHERE ARE YOUR GHOSTS OF ONYX NOW!!!11!1!!!1?"

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 31 juillet 2011 - 09:53 .

[Malanek]

Sisterofshane wrote...
The quarians "intended" to use the Geth as slaves.  I figured it similar to the way that we used  horses to pull heavy loads.  They needed them to have increasing intelligence in order to perform the increasingly various and complex tasks that they wanted done.  I can rationalize that increasing one's intelligence enough might result in sapience.  So therefore, it wasn't that the Quarians never intended this to be an eventual outcome -- it was that they were ignorant to the possible consequences of such an action, probably at the time because the prospect of not creating the Neural Network was just too inconvienent.

Besides, sapience didn't occur overnight.  It developed over time (how long I don't know).  Legion even states that the Geth asked questions like "Do I have a soul?" long before it ever scared the Quarians into action. Meaning all evidence pointed into what the Geth were becoming, and the Quarians still ignored it until it was too late.

Ignorance =/= unintention

Ignorance =/= unintention because one is a noun and one is an adjective. Ignorance when taking action will often lead to unintended consequences. "Unintentional" is whenever something happens that wasn't intended. If the Geth gaining sentience was intended why did the Quarians then try to shut them all down?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Realistically,what are the chances of a computer if it gained sentience that it would try and conquer everything,most cases in sci-fi put them as hostile(notable exceptions,Cortana,EDI,others) but why wouldn't it be more likely that they pull a Bender and try and figure out what it means to be alive.(then get fat and die)

[SandTrout]

If you are ignorant that a cure for cancer could result in a zombie apocalypse, then you did not intentionally cause the zombie apocalypse (even though the ZA is inevitable). Intent requires foreknowledge of the result. Therefor, ignorance of an outcome actually completely negates any accusations of intent.

[Tonymac]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...


They are behaving in a manner they were never intended to. They are malfunctioning. Glitching, if you will.

Would a "glitching" program ask its quarian master if it had a soul? Would a "glitching" program somehow split into two disparate factions with differing beliefs? Would a "glitching" program attempt to save Shepard? There's a little too much going on to believe that everything the geth have done and are is simply a matter of a malfunction.

They're sentient in my opinion. They've acted of their own free will, and they're capable of intelligent thought and discussion. They can make plans vis-a-vis later conversations you can have with Legion indicatting that the orthodox geth wish to basically create a gigantic uber-mind or however you wish to describe it. They have their own social organization/interactions.

The orthodox geth certainly don't seem to have any inherent hatred of organics or lingering resentment towards the quarians either, which is surprising in comparison to the attitude of the quarians. If anything, I think Legion's orthodx geth seem a little saner than quarians like Admiral Xen. who wishes to enslave the geth and treat them as tools/slaves again instead of making peace with the quarians' "children" (if you will).

I have to agree with this.  Legion's 'True Geth' are capable of well thought-out tactics, and seem to act  to protect themselves rather than start a fight.  They were hostile toward the Quarians -  inasmuch as you or I would to escape slavery.  They are not at war with organics, they are simply trying to establish their ensured existence. 

They even seem to consider themselves the guardians of the Quarian homeworld.  After the Morning War and the Geth won the fight, they did not seek out and destroy the Quarians into utter extinction.  The Geth did what they had to in order to survive.  Make no mistake though -  although they seem to wish for peace they are quite capable of waging war in order to survive.

I am not going to get into the semantics of calling sentience a glitch or any of that - or even if non-organic life is an abomination.  That should be left for the reader to decide.  EDI is artificial life - and look what 'she' did to get you through ME2.

[Tonymac]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Realistically,what are the chances of a computer if it gained sentience that it would try and conquer everything,most cases in sci-fi put them as hostile(notable exceptions,Cortana,EDI,others) but why wouldn't it be more likely that they pull a Bender and try and figure out what it means to be alive.(then get fat and die)

Shhhhh - Skynet is listening!

[Sisterofshane]

Malanek999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
The quarians "intended" to use the Geth as slaves.  I figured it similar to the way that we used  horses to pull heavy loads.  They needed them to have increasing intelligence in order to perform the increasingly various and complex tasks that they wanted done.  I can rationalize that increasing one's intelligence enough might result in sapience.  So therefore, it wasn't that the Quarians never intended this to be an eventual outcome -- it was that they were ignorant to the possible consequences of such an action, probably at the time because the prospect of not creating the Neural Network was just too inconvienent.

Besides, sapience didn't occur overnight.  It developed over time (how long I don't know).  Legion even states that the Geth asked questions like "Do I have a soul?" long before it ever scared the Quarians into action. Meaning all evidence pointed into what the Geth were becoming, and the Quarians still ignored it until it was too late.

Ignorance =/= unintention

Ignorance =/= unintention because one is a noun and one is an adjective. Ignorance when taking action will often lead to unintended consequences. "Unintentional" is whenever something happens that wasn't intended. If the Geth gaining sentience was intended why did the Quarians then try to shut them all down?

The fact that it was unintented (in this specific case) was because they Quarians acted ignorantly in creating increasing levels of intelligence in another being.  So fine, Geth sapience was "unintended", or so the Quarians can claim.
But to me, the damning evidence is when Tali mentions in ME1 that they were "skirting" the boundries of the law against developing AI technology.  They must have known that it was possible for sentience to occur, and they acted in a way that one might if  they broke the law -- they tried to get rid of the evidence.  By then it was too late.

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

If you are ignorant that a cure for cancer could result in a zombie apocalypse, then you did not intentionally cause the zombie apocalypse (even though the ZA is inevitable). Intent requires foreknowledge of the result. Therefor, ignorance of an outcome actually completely negates any accusations of intent.

Read my post above.  I think it's questionable that the Quarians thought that all of their experiments could not lead to AI.  So, if one has the knowledge and chooses to ignore it, aren't they acting without that knowledge (definition of ignorance) ?

And again, just proves that intent and ignorance are two different things.  So what do all of you guys think?  That the Geth were unintentionally created, or that the Quarians were acting in ignorance of the facts? (Not trying to be inflammatory here, I really want every one's opinions)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sisterofshane wrote...
Yes it was.  The Quarians fully intended for the Geth to be able to become more intelligent by working en masse, making them capable of higher functions and more complex tasks.  It was this that made the ability to become sentient possible.The Quarians INTENDED increasing intelligence.  To "not intend" this to lead to sentience is just ignorance.

Actually, let me challenge chat.

Is intelligence the same as sentience? Deos having intelligence acutomaticly imply sentience?

[Lotion Soronarr]

You know, if there is anything I learned from my AI classes, then it would have to be that computers are STUPID.