677 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You know, if there is anything I learned from my AI classes, then it would have to be that computers are STUPID.

Not programmers are stupid?

AI is hard. You do lots of really clever stuff for minimal results.

[SandTrout]

I think that Geth Sapience was unintentionally created, and that the Quarians had no good reason to believe that the Geth were capable of becoming sapient.

[King Killoth]

I want a geth counciler

[SalsaDMA]

Luc0s wrote...
 they should be treated as persons or living individuals.

But that's the point. They are NOT persons or individuals...

Even legion confirms this.

[Sisterofshane]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
Yes it was.  The Quarians fully intended for the Geth to be able to become more intelligent by working en masse, making them capable of higher functions and more complex tasks.  It was this that made the ability to become sentient possible.The Quarians INTENDED increasing intelligence.  To "not intend" this to lead to sentience is just ignorance.

Actually, let me challenge chat.

Is intelligence the same as sentience? Deos having intelligence acutomaticly imply sentience?

Intelligence is a prerequisite for Sentience.  And intelligence is measured on a scale.  One has to have "sufficient" intelligence in order to be considered Sentient.
I.E. Chimpanzees are intelligent enough to use simple tools, but are not considered to be a sentient species by most scholars.
However, if we were to give Chimpanzees the amount of intelligence required to be considered "sentient", then it stands to reason that we would have created a sentient species. (like the Quarians and the Geth).

[Sisterofshane]

SandTrout wrote...

I think that Geth Sapience was unintentionally created, and that the Quarians had no good reason to believe that the Geth were capable of becoming sapient.

And that makes movies like "Planet of the Apes" even scarier, LOL!

[SalsaDMA]

Luc0s wrote...

No, plants aren't sentient.

How do you know? You asume so because you personally cannot communicate with them?

You realize that there are scientific studies that show behaviour in plants that could be translated into fear when faced with a known threat?

[SalsaDMA]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Ignorance =/= unintention

I actually think it was more along the lines of:

Quarian engineer 1: "So hey.. We can link these programs up with each other to share processing power so they can compute more complex tasks for us."

Quarian engineer 2: "Sounds cool. Remember to use a large enough array to facilitate future needs, we don't want the old earthling joke of '640 kilobytes is enough for everyone' to bite us in the rear, right?" (yes, I know they didn't have contact with earth at that point in time, just flow with the joke)

Quarian engineer 1: "You know what? I'll just make a linked list. No limit. That'll give us all the buffer in the future we need for increased power."

QE2: "Hmm.. Sure about that? putting limitless variables in the design might be risky.."

QE1: "Pftftft... what's the worst that could happen? Lack of character variables for enough enumeration of all the variables in the table?"

QE2: "Whatever..."

....

In other words: carelessness...


Somewhat remniscent of this topic, people today actually want to make use of 'evolutionary design' to figure out solutions to problems. It's the exact same kind of thought process and puts less and less knowledge about the actual systems designed with the socalled 'designers' because they basicly just ask the systems to design themselves and makes recursive selections of whatever seems to generate the closest/best result untill they got something that produces the intended result. If quarians used this technique for their Geth designs, no wonder they don't know half of what is going on within their own designs.

[SandTrout]

Sisterofshane wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

I think that Geth Sapience was unintentionally created, and that the Quarians had no good reason to believe that the Geth were capable of becoming sapient.

And that makes movies like "Planet of the Apes" even scarier, LOL!

Actually, more like terminator. Planet of the Apes fails to take into account biological 'economy', which is one of the underlying principals of evolution. Brain cells require significantly greater energy than the same mass of muscle tissue. An organism must economize available calories between its nervous system and other aspects that are relevant to survival, such as muscles mass. Simply increasing the size of the brain on a chimp to be comprable to that of a human would not result in something with human intelligence and a chimpanzee's physical power unless the experiment is allowed unlimited caloric intake, which does not occur in nature.

Machines, like the Geth, operate on a different scale than biology, and therefore theoretically could become both stronger and smarter than humans. By their very nature, machines are 'min-maxed' toward their stated goals.

[simo2003]

This thread raises some interesting philosophical points. What is life? What is sentience? What is intelligence? The reason that these things have been debated for hundreds, probably thousands of years is because there is no easy answer - it comes as no surprise to me that there is a wide diversity of opinion in the thread up to this point.

By my own reckoning, I would consider the Geth as a collective to be 'alive'. I don't consider the point that the Geth network is a 'mechanical simulation' to be relevant. My brain is a collection of cells working together to achieve self-awareness. Just because this happens with organic cells and not transistors (or whatever) is not important. The end result is the same, in either case, with the right hardware, biological or synthetic, if an organism demonstrates self-awareness and is capable of original thought (as humans and Geth are), then it is alive.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

simo2003 wrote...

This thread raises some interesting philosophical points. What is life? What is sentience? What is intelligence? The reason that these things have been debated for hundreds, probably thousands of years is because there is no easy answer - it comes as no surprise to me that there is a wide diversity of opinion in the thread up to this point.

By my own reckoning, I would consider the Geth as a collective to be 'alive'. I don't consider the point that the Geth network is a 'mechanical simulation' to be relevant. My brain is a collection of cells working together to achieve self-awareness. Just because this happens with organic cells and not transistors (or whatever) is not important. The end result is the same, in either case, with the right hardware, biological or synthetic, if an organism demonstrates self-awareness and is capable of original thought (as humans and Geth are), then it is alive.

Maybe thats what the future they are building is for,to achieve "true sentience"

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Luc0s wrote...

I wonder if we will see and/or hear more about the Dyson Sphere that the geth were planning to build.

I hope the dyson sphere would be like a super reaper but with the geth's mind in it. Then, if we managed to get the geth on our side, we would have a super geth reaper on our side! That would be awesome!

I doubt this is going to happen in ME3, but one can always hope, no?

Fricken Death Star.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Luc0s wrote...

Yeah, a mo-fokkin death star that can operate itself (because it has the geth mind). BOOYAH! Who's your daddy now huh mo-fokkin reapers!?!?

xD

We are Legion,we have built a concensus,prepare to be terminated.

[InkognitoY]

I think it depends how you define life. I personally define life as anything that is capable of sustaining itself and reproducing >autonomously<

When you think about it, humans are machines. We may not be made of metal, but we still have parts that ultimately form a larger whole. We take in information, process it, and react based upon what is happening around us. The Geth do the same thing, albeit in a different way.

Personally, just because they are made in a different way and with different material does not exclude them from being alive.

Is a cat not alive because it's not self aware?

It comes down to how you define life. I don't think we, as humans, can properly define life until we find life on another planet. A sentient intelligence, regardless of composition, is alive (to me).

[sympathy4saren]

"Geth. An annoyance. Limited utility."

[SandTrout]

See, I prefer not to involve myself in these discussions about the meaning of abstract concepts such as 'what is life?' and 'what is sentience?'. Their meanings are irrelevant when compared to the more practical questions of 'How do survive the Reaper invasion?' and 'How do I get (insert squad member here) to put out?'

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Going a bit off topic. If the Geth dyson sphere is capable of destroying Reapers than that would make them the single most powerful, adaptive, smart, and capable specie in the galaxy. A specie that's only been around for 300 years being able to destroy beings that have excisted for billions if not trillions of years who have made a living out of genocide.

[pablodurando]

SandTrout wrote...

See, I prefer not to involve myself in these discussions about the meaning of abstract concepts such as 'what is life?' and 'what is sentience?'. Their meanings are irrelevant when compared to the more practical questions of 'How do survive the Reaper invasion?' and 'How do I get (insert squad member here) to put out?'

How are the meanings irreleveant?  Are they not connected to understanding simpler questions better.  I like these discussions because they actually provide intelligent views on the 'big' questions.

Modifié par pablodurando, 01 août 2011 - 04:41 .

[darthnick427]

The geth want peace and the right to exist as stated by legion. I like them and think they deserve to be treated like a true race

[JediMaster_Murph]

simo2003 wrote...

This thread raises some interesting philosophical points. What is life? What is sentience? What is intelligence? The reason that these things have been debated for hundreds, probably thousands of years is because there is no easy answer - it comes as no surprise to me that there is a wide diversity of opinion in the thread up to this point.

By my own reckoning, I would consider the Geth as a collective to be 'alive'. I don't consider the point that the Geth network is a 'mechanical simulation' to be relevant. My brain is a collection of cells working together to achieve self-awareness. Just because this happens with organic cells and not transistors (or whatever) is not important. The end result is the same, in either case, with the right hardware, biological or synthetic, if an organism demonstrates self-awareness and is capable of original thought (as humans and Geth are), then it is alive.

i concur

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

What do you mean they aren't behaving in a manner that the Quarians intended?
Tali specifically states that they were designed to become more intelligent by working in concert with other Geth.

Call me crazy, but I don't think the geth were ever intended to utterly destroy quarian civilization and exterminate 99% of the quarian species. I also find it unlikely the quarians ever intended the geth to be able to completely disregard quarian commands.

Just putting that out there.

Yes, but you specifically called it a "malfunction".  The geth were not functioning wrongly, just unexpectedly.  And so maybe the Quarians never "wanted" any of it to happen, but it did.  It didn't give them the right to turn around and try to disable all of them, especially once they were discovered to have apparent conciousness (which, for all purposes in the game, they do).
Can you imagine back in the 1800's if, rather than let slaves be free, slave holders just decided to kill all of the slaves they had and start from scratch with new slaves, ones that would be more obedient and not demand freedom of will?  That's exactly what the Quarians did to the Geth.  And they paid for it by losing their homeworld.

I agree wih Legion when he basically says that everyone with the ability to determine their own fate should have the right to do so.