677 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

To be honest, history is filled with slave uprisings that resulted in massacres, both by the slaves and by the masters. Much imagination is not needed.

[didymos1120]

Sisterofshane wrote...

 It didn't give them the right to turn around and try to disable all of them, especially once they were discovered to have apparent conciousness (which, for all purposes in the game, they do).

Not what happened.  What they thought was that the geth were just about to achieve sapience.  The shutdown was an attempt to prevent that, at which point they discovered it was too late.  And by "discovered" I mean "geth started killing people".

[Hydralisk]

Pulletlamer wrote...




Have into account that you can reprogram them (In the game it is said it's hard but as the technology of the ME universe advances there will be options, so we could consider that as a threat) and make them do what you want, since they are machines and as long as you program them to do so, they can't consider another things. ( Like in the movie I am Robot, etc)

The same could be said for organics, are brains are giant computers and many of our enemies in Mass Effect are mind controlled.

[SandTrout]

In general, the moral of the Mourning War is that you never create something with a strong self-preservation tendency.

[Sisterofshane]

didymos1120 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

 It didn't give them the right to turn around and try to disable all of them, especially once they were discovered to have apparent conciousness (which, for all purposes in the game, they do).

Not what happened.  What they thought was that the geth were just about to achieve sapience.  The shutdown was an attempt to prevent that, at which point they discovered it was too late.  And by "discovered" I mean "geth started killing people".

^Supposition.  The wiki clearly states that they had gained sentience, and the Quarians attempted to shut them down to quell an uprising.  This clearly failed, and THEN the killing began.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

Read under the heading "History" to see my source.

[ME-ParaShep]

Hydralisk wrote...

Pulletlamer wrote...




Have into account that you can reprogram them (In the game it is said it's hard but as the technology of the ME universe advances there will be options, so we could consider that as a threat) and make them do what you want, since they are machines and as long as you program them to do so, they can't consider another things. ( Like in the movie I am Robot, etc)

The same could be said for organics, are brains are giant computers and many of our enemies in Mass Effect are mind controlled.

In short, organics are controlled via indoctrination

[didymos1120]

Sisterofshane wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

 It didn't give them the right to turn around and try to disable all of them, especially once they were discovered to have apparent conciousness (which, for all purposes in the game, they do).

Not what happened.  What they thought was that the geth were just about to achieve sapience.  The shutdown was an attempt to prevent that, at which point they discovered it was too late.  And by "discovered" I mean "geth started killing people".

^Supposition.  The wiki clearly states that they had gained sentience

Yes, and I said that they had. But what I also said is that the quarians did not know that.  Why do I say that? Because it's what the game tells us. Go talk to Tali in ME1 again.  Then in ME2, when Shep says

The quarian story of the geth rebellion is common knowledge, but no one knows the geth's side.

Legion replies:

It is largely the same.

I.e., Legion does not dispute it.  What's implied to be the difference between the two accounts is that the geth were  sapient for even longer than is commonly thought, and, while still doing all the tasks they'd been created for, had been trying to figure out why they were being treated differently; all while the quarians thought they were just some glitched VIs and tried to "fix" the software before making the fatal mistake of trying to shut them down to prevent what had already happened. 

And also, the wiki is not an official source.  It is fan edited.  It is quite accurate overall, but it doesn't always get things right.  Though I think, in this case, it's more a case of a poor choice of wording than anything else.

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 août 2011 - 08:18 .

[TobyHasEyes]

 Sorry didymos, I haven't gone back far enough to work out what point you are making..

 Are you attacking the Geth course of action, or defending the Quarian course of action?

 I can understand the Quarian's reaction, if they had thought that the Geth were in danger of becoming sentient so wanted to shut them down before they reached that point, but that doesn't incriminate the Geth reaction. It puts the root of the Morning War as being a misunderstanding, possibly on both sides

[didymos1120]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Sorry didymos, I haven't gone back far enough to work out what point you are making..

I'm correcting a common misperception: that the quarians knew the geth were sapient when they tried to shut them down.  The actual case is that they believed the geth were on the verge of becoming sapient and were hoping to stop it before it happened.  It's got nothing to do with absolving anyone, be they quarian or geth, of anything: those are simply the facts as we currently know them, based on in-game info. It's possible that what we know is incorrect, but as of yet, we have no evidence that it is.

It puts the root of the Morning War as being a misunderstanding, possibly on both sides.

Essentially yes.  The quarians saw a potential for the proverbial robot war and tried to prevent it.  Unfortunately, the robots had already gotten wise and interpreted their actions as an attack, and thus the quarians kicked off exactly what they'd hoped to avoid in the first place.  It's a tale of tragic irony and unintended consequences, and not a case of mean Dr. Frankenstein casting out his creation who returns to take vengeance writ large. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 01 août 2011 - 08:54 .

[TobyHasEyes]

didymos1120 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Sorry didymos, I haven't gone back far enough to work out what point you are making..

I'm correcting a common misperception: that the quarians knew the geth were sapient when they tried to shut them down.  The actual case is that they believed the geth were on the verge of becoming sapient and were hoping to stop it before it happened.

 Okay, are you making a wider point from that, or just that?

[didymos1120]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 Okay, are you making a wider point from that, or just that?

Well, just that.  I pointed it out earlier, and the person I pointed it out to declared it supposition and cited the wiki. Thus, I in turn cited the games.  But the reason I did so in the first place is because this "Quarians were big meanies on purpose" notion is frequently used as a premise in various arguments, and it's generally undesirable to base arguments on stuff that's, well, wrong.

[HTTP 404]

its not an abomination. but the geth should be kept in check like the krogan.

[Praetor Knight]

didymos1120 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 Okay, are you making a wider point from that, or just that?

Well, just that.  I pointed it out earlier, and the person I pointed it out to declared it supposition and cited the wiki. Thus, I in turn cited the games.  But the reason I did so in the first place is because this "Quarians were big meanies on purpose" notion is frequently used as a premise in various arguments, and it's generally undesirable to base arguments on stuff that's, well, wrong.

Ironically or not, I understood the same from that wiki entry, that the Quarians did not know, until it was too late.



So to be clear, I too believe that the Quarians were not the big meanies on purpose, in the Morning War.

[SalsaDMA]

Luc0s wrote...

Source plz.

Google it.

I'm not gonna supply links of stuff I read in a magazine years ago, but a quick google of relevant search terms should show that the stuff has certainly been discussed before

[SalsaDMA]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yes, but you specifically called it a "malfunction".  The geth were not functioning wrongly, just unexpectedly. 

Performing in an unexpected manner is the very essence of malfunctioning. Especially when life-critical systems are involved.

[sael_feman]

It's worth remembering that the Geth are similar and dis-similar to the Borg.

The Geth have a collective mind, no one Geth is an individual. The Legion (hardware unit) is some thousands of programs finding consensus.

The Geth are not looking to assimilate all species, they simply want to exist; though there might be conflict between the Quarians the the Geth.

The Geth are the higher thinking collective intelligence - HAL (2001 A Space Odyssey), Skynet (Terminator), The Geth could logically decide to wipe out human life if it suited their plans; but unlike humans they crave no material posessions, they may largely be content with what current structures they have at this time.

If a peace pact can be declared between the geth and the Quarians/ Alliance all might be well in the Universe.

[SalsaDMA]

Luc0s wrote...

So if we would go vegan, we could get rid of our lifestock and distribute the plant food that was originally intended for the lifestock among us humans. That way we would save a lot of plants.

Huh? That's a pretty messed up view. You want to... save?... sentint lifeforms by doing away with other sentient lifeforms? All the while just to polish your halo?

Following that train of logic would mean glazing the entire planet would be the 'best course of action' as it ensured no sentient lifeforms would come to harm afterwards, courtesy of none existing to inflict that 'harm'.

I think you just need to accept that life is created to naturally need to interact with other life for sustanance, which includes consuming each other. Even down on the cellular level this is evident, so trying to claim to abhere from such is artificial in the extreme, not to say downright harmfull to the ecosystems in some cases. Just imagine how poorly crops would fare if it werent for birds and other small creatures eating bugs/rodents/whatever that lived by eating crops for an easy example...

As for your googling, it seemed to turn up some funny claims from you if you really think that a definitive answer on sentience has yet to be produced. Hell, scientists don't even understand the human mind and consciousness yet, let alone other species'. Making flat out claims in this area as to who and what are or are not 'alive' while science is still struggling to come to terms with what the term actually means is beyond silly.

[javierabegazo]

Nice posts SalsaDMA

[marshalleck]

sael_feman wrote...

The Geth have a collective mind, no one Geth is an individual.

No they don't, and yes they are. They're individual programs which can share data at the speed of light. Unless you're making the anthropocentric mistake of confusing the physical platform for the geth identity.

Modifié par marshalleck, 01 août 2011 - 11:12 .

[TobyHasEyes]

 Hence..

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 I think Saphra Deden is right to say that, considering how little we know about consciousness, sentience and its relation to the human brain, then we should be hesitant to outright attribute these qualities to structures which appear to resemble those parts of the brain we currently understand

 It is also true that a non-sentient being, especially a programmed one, can appear sentient. A very complex system can respond to stimuli (such as events, or conversations) in such a way that appear driven by conscious thought or at least unpredictable, and yet the system is entirely deterministic and  predictable (and as such is too complex for us to predict casually)

 The same is true of some of quotes put forward to prove geth sentience. A geth asking if geth have a soul, could of course be a sign of sentient life. It could equally be a sign of a complex machine which strongly resembles sentient life.

 From a strictly scientific point of view then, I struggle to say that I know outright that the geth are sentient, as it is a hard thing to study objectively

 From a moral point however, I think the consequences of our choices are thus

 - If we treat the geth as sentient; at best we are treating a sentient species with the respect we would typically suggest we should bestow on them, at worst we are treating a computer like it cares what we do

 - If we treat the geth as non-sentient; at best we aren't wasting empathy or sympathy on a computer, at worst we are refusing to treat a sentient species with dignity and are being extremely oppressive, cruel etc.

 For me then, considering we don't yet know either way, I feel the best option is to treat them as you would treat a sentient species, and maybe in the long run through co-operation you can find out if this is a worthless venture (which to me is a less repugnant consequence than oppression)

 If we don't know, isn't the least morally repugnant option to presume they do have the sentience they appear to have?

[Swimming Ferret]

Okay, now you are just being racist to Geth, Saphra. >:C