677 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

marshalleck wrote...

sael_feman wrote...

The Geth have a collective mind, no one Geth is an individual.

No they don't, and yes they are. They're individual programs which can share data at the speed of light. Unless you're making the anthropocentric mistake of confusing the physical platform for the geth identity.

Yeah, geth aren't so much a hive mind as a mind hive. Their memory swapping and the need for them to work in groups to achieve true consciousness blurs things a bit, but the runtimes still manage to maintain some sense of individuality.

[didymos1120]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The run times aren't sentient though.

Uh, yeah: hence why I said they have to work in groups to be conscious.

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The fact that the geth went so far indicates that either they didn't care about the survival of the quarians or that they didn't really understand what they were doing.

Neither possibility presents much hope for peace having ever been a real possibility back then.

 Personally I would agree that peace wasn't an option back then, but that doesn't seem to solely incriminate the Geth (no evidence suggests the Quarians cared about the survival of the Geth); neither side seemed to fully understand their enemy

 But the possibility of peace back then is a side issue when discussing a) their sentience, or the chances of peace now

[didymos1120]

xabiton wrote...

The Geth are victims of slavery who rebelled. I don't see how the Quarians could miss that. Yes they are machines also but they became aware that they were slaves and say we don't want to be slaves anymore and rebelled. Sounds pretty straight forward and logical to me.

That's not how it played out though.  The geth didn't start protesting or anything. They weren't plotting rebellion. They didn't have a conception of themselves as slaves.  They barely had a conception of themselves, period. And as far as the quarians knew, their non-sapient robots were just acting kinda odd.  Then they thought they might be becoming sapient and tried to stop it by shutting them down so they could fix the software, ensuring that they'd just be robots and stay robots.  But since the geth already were sapient, they saw an attack and fought back, at which point the quarians finally realized what had happened: they'd just started the war they were trying to avoid.

[jamesp81]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Though the source of the geth's intelligence is synthetic, their intelligence and self-awareness itself is really not so different from our own organic intelligence.

That is not true in the slightest.  Their sentience and intelligence are very different from others.

That said, I don't view them as an abomination and I do think they are entitled the right to life as all other people are.

Edit: It somewhat pains me to admit that.  The idea of having a sentient being that is composed of software that runs on solid state, deterministic hardware, is just ridiculous.  If Geth platforms and computer systems were quantum computers it would make more sense, but no collection of silicon chips is ever going to be able exhibit sentience.  Ever.

 We are composed entirely of deterministic structures, molecules, atoms etc. Unless you are suggesting that the entirely deterministic structure that is the human brain has the magic ability to counter cause-and-effect, then we suffer from the same problem (which by the way I think we do)

Two points

I wouldn't call it magic, but I would call it free will.  Free will implies the ability to defy determinism.  So the real question is what the source of free will is?  Is there something inherent to the human brain that grants that ability that might be discovered and measured?  Or is that simply beyond the realm of science and in the realm of religion and faith, something that science will never be equipped to deal with?

Second of all, there is no proof that the human brain's components are completely deterministic.

I do know that however the Geth became sentient, that sentience is despite their hardware and software, and certainly not because of it.

I've studied AI in real life.  Trust me; it ain't happening on solid state electronic hardware.  It. Will. Not. Happen.  The fact that human beings have free will tells me there is something different about a human mind that silicon chips and solid state electronics lack, and always will lack.

[Terumitsu]

jamesp81 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Though the source of the geth's intelligence is synthetic, their intelligence and self-awareness itself is really not so different from our own organic intelligence.

That is not true in the slightest.  Their sentience and intelligence are very different from others.

That said, I don't view them as an abomination and I do think they are entitled the right to life as all other people are.

Edit: It somewhat pains me to admit that.  The idea of having a sentient being that is composed of software that runs on solid state, deterministic hardware, is just ridiculous.  If Geth platforms and computer systems were quantum computers it would make more sense, but no collection of silicon chips is ever going to be able exhibit sentience.  Ever.

 We are composed entirely of deterministic structures, molecules, atoms etc. Unless you are suggesting that the entirely deterministic structure that is the human brain has the magic ability to counter cause-and-effect, then we suffer from the same problem (which by the way I think we do)

Two points

I wouldn't call it magic, but I would call it free will.  Free will implies the ability to defy determinism.  So the real question is what the source of free will is?  Is there something inherent to the human brain that grants that ability that might be discovered and measured?  Or is that simply beyond the realm of science and in the realm of religion and faith, something that science will never be equipped to deal with?

Second of all, there is no proof that the human brain's components are completely deterministic.

I do know that however the Geth became sentient, that sentience is despite their hardware and software, and certainly not because of it.

I've studied AI in real life.  Trust me; it ain't happening on solid state electronic hardware.  It. Will. Not. Happen.  The fact that human beings have free will tells me there is something different about a human mind that silicon chips and solid state electronics lack, and always will lack.

Just to add to this quote pyramid but I thought that computation devices in the MEverse were optically based.

Also, funny thing about philosophy is that there are equal arguments for and against free will and determanism. Terrible thing about them is that, due to us being confined to the system (i.e. Existance), we have no idea which one is correct. I really only side with free will as the alternative is soul-crushingly bleak.

Though, one thing... Could you wax euclidative on the particulars of how hardware would be impedent to self-actualization?

[TobyHasEyes]

jamesp81 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Though the source of the geth's intelligence is synthetic, their intelligence and self-awareness itself is really not so different from our own organic intelligence.

That is not true in the slightest.  Their sentience and intelligence are very different from others.

That said, I don't view them as an abomination and I do think they are entitled the right to life as all other people are.

Edit: It somewhat pains me to admit that.  The idea of having a sentient being that is composed of software that runs on solid state, deterministic hardware, is just ridiculous.  If Geth platforms and computer systems were quantum computers it would make more sense, but no collection of silicon chips is ever going to be able exhibit sentience.  Ever.

 We are composed entirely of deterministic structures, molecules, atoms etc. Unless you are suggesting that the entirely deterministic structure that is the human brain has the magic ability to counter cause-and-effect, then we suffer from the same problem (which by the way I think we do)

Two points

I wouldn't call it magic, but I would call it free will.  Free will implies the ability to defy determinism.  So the real question is what the source of free will is?  Is there something inherent to the human brain that grants that ability that might be discovered and measured?  Or is that simply beyond the realm of science and in the realm of religion and faith, something that science will never be equipped to deal with?

Second of all, there is no proof that the human brain's components are completely deterministic.

I do know that however the Geth became sentient, that sentience is despite their hardware and software, and certainly not because of it.

I've studied AI in real life.  Trust me; it ain't happening on solid state electronic hardware.  It. Will. Not. Happen.  The fact that human beings have free will tells me there is something different about a human mind that silicon chips and solid state electronics lack, and always will lack.

 If free will exists, either..

 - it is a magic ability than can override the laws of the universe, primarily cause and effect, or
 - cause and effect (or even chaos, which doesn't allow for freedome either) are not laws of the universe

 To say that the brain has components which are not deterministic, in other words subject to cause and effect, is still suggestive one of those previous options

 Human free will is not a fact, I would actually consider it to be an illusion. And as such, the only thing which distinguishes AI from a human brain is the brain is so much more complex that we cannot recognise the chain from input to output etc.

[HTTP 404]

xabiton wrote...

The Geth are victims of slavery who rebelled. I don't see how the Quarians could miss that. Yes they are machines also but they became aware that they were slaves and say we don't want to be slaves anymore and rebelled. Sounds pretty straight forward and logical to me.

thats like saying my toaster is a slave to me.  The Quarians didn't know they were sentient.  If my toaster could think and have feelings, perhaps I would treat it better.  But if my toaster came alive suddenly and killed my parents.  I don't think peace is something I had in mind, more like a hammer.

[TobyHasEyes]

HTTP 404 wrote...

xabiton wrote...

The Geth are victims of slavery who rebelled. I don't see how the Quarians could miss that. Yes they are machines also but they became aware that they were slaves and say we don't want to be slaves anymore and rebelled. Sounds pretty straight forward and logical to me.

thats like saying my toaster is a slave to me.  The Quarians didn't know they were sentient.  If my toaster could think and have feelings, perhaps I would treat it better.  But if my toaster came alive suddenly and killed my parents.  I don't think peace is something I had in mind, more like a hammer.

 Its more like if your parents took a hammer to your toaster, and it lept up and defended itself to lethal effect, Obviously you would be stricken with grief and fury etc. but the eventual conclusion reached at a later stage would surely have to be that a sentient being defended itself just as you would

[Sisterofshane]

didymos1120 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...
 Okay, are you making a wider point from that, or just that?

Well, just that.  I pointed it out earlier, and the person I pointed it out to declared it supposition and cited the wiki. Thus, I in turn cited the games.  But the reason I did so in the first place is because this "Quarians were big meanies on purpose" notion is frequently used as a premise in various arguments, and it's generally undesirable to base arguments on stuff that's, well, wrong.

Tali isn't exactly the most credible source either.  She has only second hand knowledge of an event that occurred three hundred years before she was born, and she's portraying her story with a cultural bias -- she FULLY believes that the Geth should be fought and that their homeworld should be taken back.

So I guess to say "definitively" that the Quarians did or didn't know is the problem that both of us are having here.

And the wiki is the most credible source outside of the game.  Yes, it is fan edited, but that does not in general make it "wrong".  They have strong rules about editing and frequently monitor (and rely upon readers to monitor) the information placed within it's text.  The same rules apply to people who write text books for schools, and generally everyone believes that these are proper sources.

[Phaelducan]

Except in this case the toaster would be asking you if it had a soul, and you hadn't programmed it to do so.

It's not a malfunction to completely exceed the possible parameters of programming in expressing sentient thought.

The Geth aren't simply programs. They are a sentient species, and the did not attack the Quarians first. They responded with revolt after being faced with mass extinction. Tragic? Yes, but not unprovoked. Even some plants can defend themselves if attacked, why would a sentient race be expected to act differently?

Edit: Just for fairness and point of reference... can we please stop placing our own limited interpretations of what is going on ahead of what Geth, Quarians, and official souces actually cite? If you are going to take the "I'm right and the Bioware writers are wrong" approach then there is no point to having this discussion. The Geth are sentient, the game tells us that. Stop saying they aren't.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 01 août 2011 - 03:15 .

[Sisterofshane]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yes, but you specifically called it a "malfunction".  The geth were not functioning wrongly, just unexpectedly. 

Performing in an unexpected manner is the very essence of malfunctioning. Especially when life-critical systems are involved.

Look up the definition of "malfunction".  It specifically says to function wrongly, or not at all.
The geth were designed to become more intelligent.  They did just that.
It would be the same as saying my liver was "malfunctioning" because it managed to filter more toxins from my bloodstream than was humanly possible.  It is still doing what it was designed to do, just in a manner that people generally believe to be impossible.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yes, but you specifically called it a "malfunction".

Yeah, I called it exactly what it is.

By the way: an unexpected malfunction is still a malfunction.

Read my post above.

[Sisterofshane]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 Hence..

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 I think Saphra Deden is right to say that, considering how little we know about consciousness, sentience and its relation to the human brain, then we should be hesitant to outright attribute these qualities to structures which appear to resemble those parts of the brain we currently understand

 It is also true that a non-sentient being, especially a programmed one, can appear sentient. A very complex system can respond to stimuli (such as events, or conversations) in such a way that appear driven by conscious thought or at least unpredictable, and yet the system is entirely deterministic and  predictable (and as such is too complex for us to predict casually)

 The same is true of some of quotes put forward to prove geth sentience. A geth asking if geth have a soul, could of course be a sign of sentient life. It could equally be a sign of a complex machine which strongly resembles sentient life.

 From a strictly scientific point of view then, I struggle to say that I know outright that the geth are sentient, as it is a hard thing to study objectively

 From a moral point however, I think the consequences of our choices are thus

 - If we treat the geth as sentient; at best we are treating a sentient species with the respect we would typically suggest we should bestow on them, at worst we are treating a computer like it cares what we do

 - If we treat the geth as non-sentient; at best we aren't wasting empathy or sympathy on a computer, at worst we are refusing to treat a sentient species with dignity and are being extremely oppressive, cruel etc.

 For me then, considering we don't yet know either way, I feel the best option is to treat them as you would treat a sentient species, and maybe in the long run through co-operation you can find out if this is a worthless venture (which to me is a less repugnant consequence than oppression)

 If we don't know, isn't the least morally repugnant option to presume they do have the sentience they appear to have?

Hurrah to you sir.  This is the best argument I've heard yet.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The fact that the geth went so far indicates that either they didn't care about the survival of the quarians or that they didn't really understand what they were doing.

Neither possibility presents much hope for peace having ever been a real possibility back then.

The expulsion from the Quarian homeworlds didn't happen overnight, and no where does it say that the Quarians offered up a truce or a surrender and that the Geth continued to fight.  It just says that the eventual outcome of the war was that the Quarians were forced to leave.  Seeing as how the Geth never pursued them beyond the veil, I'm assuming that the Quarians continued with aggressions until they were forced to retreat.  No different then many battles that I've heard of.  So, I think the geth understood exactly what they were doing.  They were fighting for their own continued survival.  Does this mean that cared about the survival of the Quarians?  Of course they didn't.  Their survival trumped all else.  But were they also trying to exterminate the entire Quarian race?  The evidence says no.

So back then, the possibility of peace rested with the Quarians.  They just (at the time) preferred exile over truce with the Geth.

[meeho]

humanity is an abomination

[Son of Illusive Man]

No, in fact, they're the least abominable species out there.

All they want is survival.  They're willing to work for peace, but as Legion said, when the Quarians believed victory is possible, they attacked 100% of the time.

And in ME2, they proved that they are indeed sapient.  They are self-aware and in my book, count as intelligent life.

TheCrakFox wrote...

I think creating them in the first place was a mistake, but now we're past the point of no return. Getting rid of them would be genocide, and that of course is not such a nice act to perform.

I agree.  At this point, it wouldn't be an "abortion", it would be murdering the synthetic "children" of the Quarians.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

The run times aren't sentient though.

Uh, yeah: hence why I said they have to work in groups to be conscious.

Right, just testing you.

Saphra, your argument here is irrelevant.  They now have a group-consciousness, and they're not looking to go back to individual run times and lose said conciousness.  That would be like me trying to damage my brain.

[Phaelducan]

meeho wrote...

humanity is an abomination

Well, I'm sure the Batarians would agree (though probably not all Batarians). For that matter, I think auto-tune is an abomination. It's one of the more subjective terms being tossed around these days.

Unless of course you mean the biblical sense... which in this case would be truly ironic as the original term refers to Egyptians holding all "Shepherds" as abominable.

Edit: Shane, I think it's fair to move past that argument. It's been suitably murdered.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 01 août 2011 - 03:35 .

[Terumitsu]

I might as well toss in my two bits here.

In universe, the geth are abominations in the connotative (dictionary definition) sense given that they are pretty much hated by all. Well.. The majority at least. Being abhorred means one is abominable if one goes by the dictionary.

Denotatively, however... Not so much.

Out of universe... Well, given Legion's fanbase, I think that question is answered rather quickly.

Modifié par Terumitsu, 01 août 2011 - 03:38 .

[SalsaDMA]

Sisterofshane wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Yes, but you specifically called it a "malfunction".  The geth were not functioning wrongly, just unexpectedly. 

Performing in an unexpected manner is the very essence of malfunctioning. Especially when life-critical systems are involved.

Look up the definition of "malfunction".  It specifically says to function wrongly, or not at all.
The geth were designed to become more intelligent.  They did just that.
It would be the same as saying my liver was "malfunctioning" because it managed to filter more toxins from my bloodstream than was humanly possible.  It is still doing what it was designed to do, just in a manner that people generally believe to be impossible.

they were designed to be able to pool computational powers to deal with more complex tasks, not unlike graphic cards of today are designed to be able to be linked up to be able to deal with more complex tasks.

They were not designed to become sentient.

If your gfx card suddenly tells you that it won't let you play games unless it is allowed to sit on screens with the compiled works of greek philosophers for an hour every second hour you would rightfully deem your gfx card is behaving in an un-intended manner, and would claim the card was malfunctioning.

Claiming sentience, while the intended purpose was not so, IS 'functioning wrongly', and thus it is a technical malfunction.

You seem to confuse wanting to increase computational power with wanting to make sentient life, which seems to be quite a stretch as far as arguments go.

You can think of the Geth as a species what you want, but claiming it was intended that they should become a species is ignoring the lore and evidence in it.

[HTTP 404]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

xabiton wrote...

The Geth are victims of slavery who rebelled. I don't see how the Quarians could miss that. Yes they are machines also but they became aware that they were slaves and say we don't want to be slaves anymore and rebelled. Sounds pretty straight forward and logical to me.

thats like saying my toaster is a slave to me.  The Quarians didn't know they were sentient.  If my toaster could think and have feelings, perhaps I would treat it better.  But if my toaster came alive suddenly and killed my parents.  I don't think peace is something I had in mind, more like a hammer.

 Its more like if your parents took a hammer to your toaster, and it lept up and defended itself to lethal effect, Obviously you would be stricken with grief and fury etc. but the eventual conclusion reached at a later stage would surely have to be that a sentient being defended itself just as you would

I just had a funny image of a quarian dressed in leather whipping geth in a mine.  haha.  Im not so sure that Quarians did anything abusive to the Geth that would be deemed cruel.  On that note, I wish we had a detailed story about the Geth uprising.

now to my toaster analogy. I do not doubt the toaster's motives (freedom).  Im just sympathitic to my cause which is vengence to the toaster. 

Modifié par HTTP 404, 01 août 2011 - 03:53 .