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The Geth: Are they an abomination?

Débuté par Guest_Luc0s_* , juil. 30 2011 08:53

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#576
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:06

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Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

But Saphra Deden, what reason do you have for thinking we could not (in the same theoretical expanse of time with the same theoretical insight) do the same thing with an organic brain?
 


An organic brain is not a series of algorythms. You could simulate one that way, in theory. However that is not literally what it is. It is complex matter and energy.

A geth is not. A geth is literally those symbols you've written down on the paper.


I love it how people like creationists, intelligent-design-supporters (e.g. creationists with a different label) and apperantly you try to use the complexity of a biological system as an argument. As if the complexity of a biological system actually supports your arguments. It does not.

What does almost all technology on earth have in common? Make an educated guess....

... Okay, here's the answer: almost all technology on earth is somehow inspired from phenomena we observe in nature.


When we created the first plane, we drew inspiration from birds. Are you saying planes do not really fly, but merely "simulate" flying?

When we created the first submarine, we drew inspiration from fish. Are you saying submarines are not really operating underwater, but are merely simulating underwater operation?

The geth and their technology that makes them sapient, draws inspiration from how a sapient brain works. So, are geth not really sapient, but merely simulating sapience?


You know the answer to all 3 questions is "no". Planes are really flying, just like birds. Submarines really operate underwater, just like fish. The geth are really sapient, just like brains.

Modifié par Luc0s, 03 août 2011 - 10:08 .

#577
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:08

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Luc0s wrote...

I love it how people like creationists, intelligent-design-supporters (e.g. creationists with a different label) and apperantly you try to use the complexity of a biological system as an argument. As if the complexity of a biological system actually supports your arguments. It does not.


I don't see why it is unreasonable to speculate that only biological systems can give rise to certain phenomena.

At the same time I think it is reasonable that only synthetic/digital systems can give rise to others.

#578
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:11

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I love it how people like creationists, intelligent-design-supporters (e.g. creationists with a different label) and apperantly you try to use the complexity of a biological system as an argument. As if the complexity of a biological system actually supports your arguments. It does not.


I don't see why it is unreasonable to speculate that only biological systems can give rise to certain phenomena.

At the same time I think it is reasonable that only synthetic/digital systems can give rise to others.


Yes, but in the Mass Effect universe, sapience can be achieved by both biological systems and digital systems.
If this is possible in reallife is debatable (scientists are trying hard to create a self-aware digital neural network, but so far, no succes), but it's obvious that in Mass Effect, the quarians have achieved (by accident) what scientists in real-life are still trying to achieve.

Modifié par Luc0s, 03 août 2011 - 10:13 .

#579
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:12

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Luc0s wrote...


Yes, but in the mass effect universe,


Even in the Mass Effect universe this is still up for debate.

See Daro'Xen.

#580
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:16

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


Yes, but in the mass effect universe,


Even in the Mass Effect universe this is still up for debate.

See Daro'Xen.


It's not up for debate. Daro'Xen hardly has any supporters because her theory doesn't make any sense. Just like in real-life the intelligent-design movement doesn't have any scientific support because it doesn't make any sense.

Daro'Xen is wrong. But she doesn't know she's wrong because she doesn't have first-hand experience with the geth, unlike Shepard and Tali, who have Legion in their crew, who obviously is self-aware. I don't see how you can deny the obvious so stubbornly. You're like a creationists who stubbornly denies the theory of evolution.

#581
Inverness Moon
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:16

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Saphra Deden wrote...

You've said it all before I remain unconvinced. Obviously you feel the same about my side of it.

It's quite boring.

I haven't seen you attempt to explain your reasoning.

Luc0s wrote...

May I add something to this debate?

I think you guys are mixing up 'sentience' and 'self-awareness' and/or sapience.



self-awareness = to recognize yourself for what you are and being able to consciously separate 'self' from the environment.


sapience = understanding yourself and the environment and/or trying to gain knowledge and understanding.


sentience = to be able to have subjective experiences, feelings and emotions, for example: suffering.

I dismiss the notion that emotion is a requirement for sapience any more than five fingers is. That is a purely human bias. But either way, your definition doesn't match up to the real one, which is more like "wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment."

As for the science fiction use of sapience:

In fantasy fiction and science fiction, sapience describes an essential human property that bestows "personhood" onto a non-human. It indicates that a computer, alien, mythical creature or other object will be treated as a completely human character, with similar rights, capabilities and desires as any other human character. The words "sentience", "self-awareness" and "consciousness" are used in similar ways in science fiction.


"Will be treated as a completely human character." Geth are not human, they are geth. A lack of emotion on the part of the geth is merely a difference. Whether that is a negative or positive is purely a matter of opinion.

#582
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:17

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Inverness Moon wrote...

I haven't seen you attempt to explain your reasoning.


Then it looks like you never read my posts.


Luc0s wrote...


It's not up for debate. Daro'Xen hardly has any supporters...


How do you know that? She's unpopular on the admiralty board, but it isn't implied if she is unpopular anywhere else.

Regardless, whether she is popular or not is irrelevant.

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 03 août 2011 - 10:18 .

#583
Googlesaurus
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:19

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If the geth are an abomination, then the krogan and present-day Shepard are abominations as well.

#584
Inverness Moon
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:20

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I love it how people like creationists, intelligent-design-supporters (e.g. creationists with a different label) and apperantly you try to use the complexity of a biological system as an argument. As if the complexity of a biological system actually supports your arguments. It does not.


I don't see why it is unreasonable to speculate that only biological systems can give rise to certain phenomena.

At the same time I think it is reasonable that only synthetic/digital systems can give rise to others.

It's unreasonable because biological systems are made of cells. Cells have discrete functions which can be easily simulated. What escapes us is what arises from their complex interactions and how things need to be arranged to get that result.

#585
Inverness Moon
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:21

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Regardless, whether she is popular or not is irrelevant.

Indeed. Daro'Xen is simply ignorant. She certainly has an ego, which is why its no surprise she attempts to elevate herself by considering the geth beneath her.

#586
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:22

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


It's not up for debate. Daro'Xen hardly has any supporters...


How do you know that? She's unpopular on the admiralty board, but it isn't implied if she is unpopular anywhere else.

Regardless, whether she is popular or not is irrelevant.


I just checked all Daro'Xen's lines from ME2 to fresh up my memory. it seems she doesn't deny that the geth are sapient. She merely states that ti doesn't matter that the geth are sapient, they're still "just machines".

Daro'Xen does not actively deny the geth's sapience, like you do. So it seems that you're on your own. Even Daro'Xen's lines doesn't back up your silly arguments that the geth aren't really sapient (because they are).

#587
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:23

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When does Daro'Xen say the geth are sapient? If they're just machines then clearly she regards them as not being living beings. So she's in agreement with me.

Inverness Moon wrote...

Indeed. Daro'Xen is simply
ignorant. She certainly has an ego, which is why its no surprise she
attempts to elevate herself by considering the geth beneath her.


Oh, she tasks me.

If only she were mine.

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 03 août 2011 - 10:24 .

#588
Inverness Moon
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:27

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Saphra Deden wrote...

When does Daro'Xen say the geth are sapient? If they're just machines then clearly she regards them as not being living beings. So she's in agreement with me.

Inverness Moon wrote...

Indeed. Daro'Xen is simply
ignorant. She certainly has an ego, which is why its no surprise she
attempts to elevate herself by considering the geth beneath her.


Oh, she tasks me.

If only she were mine.

I would love to dissect Xen's brain while she watches and show her how much "just a machine" appliers to her aswell.

#589
Googlesaurus
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:28

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Saphra Deden wrote...

When does Daro'Xen say the geth are sapient? If they're just machines then clearly she regards them as not being living beings. So she's in agreement with me.

Inverness Moon wrote...

Indeed. Daro'Xen is simply
ignorant. She certainly has an ego, which is why its no surprise she
attempts to elevate herself by considering the geth beneath her.


Oh, she tasks me.

If only she were mine.


Not necessarily true. She can see them as living beings that are machines, but which possess no rights because they are machines. It's the same reasoning that differentates "eating meat" from cannibalism. Obviously the legitimacy of this view is a point of contention, but it is not without merit.  

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 03 août 2011 - 10:29 .

#590
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:28

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Inverness Moon wrote...

I would love to dissect Xen's brain while she watches and show her how much "just a machine" appliers to her aswell.


Uh huh.

It's this kind of thing that ultimately assures me of my moral superiority to everyone else.

#591
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:30

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Saphra Deden wrote...

It's this kind of thing that ultimately assures me of my moral superiority to everyone else.


I hope that was sarcastic. I hope you were joking, I really do hope that.

Modifié par Luc0s, 03 août 2011 - 10:30 .

#592
Inverness Moon
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:31

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Uh huh.

It's this kind of thing that ultimately assures me of my moral superiority to everyone else.

I wasn't suggesting anything naughty if that is what you were implying.

She just needs a hard dose of reality, and that seems to be the quickest way to do it.

Then we'll ride off into the sunset or something else cliche.

#593
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:32

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I think Admiral Daro'Xen's "the geth are just machines" and should obey the creator masters is more like racism than anything else. She reminds me of the KKK that says black people are just n!ggers that should obey their white masters.

Modifié par Luc0s, 03 août 2011 - 10:32 .

#594
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:32

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Luc0s wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's this kind of thing that ultimately assures me of my moral superiority to everyone else.


I hope that was sarcastic. I hope you were joking, I really do hope that.


I'm as serious as I'm sure Inverness Moon was.

Xen is an interesting character. Smart, ambitious, and dedicated. It's a screw-up on Bioware's part that they don't let us befriend her.

Having her take our side and be buddy buddy would have mad her betrayal and switchover to an antagonist role in ME3 all the better.

#595
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:35

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's this kind of thing that ultimately assures me of my moral superiority to everyone else.


I hope that was sarcastic. I hope you were joking, I really do hope that.


I'm as serious as I'm sure Inverness Moon was.

Xen is an interesting character. Smart, ambitious, and dedicated. It's a screw-up on Bioware's part that they don't let us befriend her.

Having her take our side and be buddy buddy would have mad her betrayal and switchover to an antagonist role in ME3 all the better.


You're crazy.

But I already figured that you're crazy in another topic a few months back, where you said that it's okay to surpress and extort other alien races for the benefit of mankind. In fact, you even said that surpressing and extorting other alien races should be humanity's goal to secure human dominance in the long run. Seriously... wtf...

Modifié par Luc0s, 03 août 2011 - 10:36 .

#596
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:36

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How is that crazy? It might be callous, but it is quite rational.

I had hoped that Bioware would surprise me with characters like Xen, Udina, and TIM, but so far all indications are that Bioware is going to go the predictable route with each and every one of them.

It's a damn shame.

#597
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:39

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Saphra Deden wrote...

How is that crazy? It might be callous, but it is quite rational.

I had hoped that Bioware would surprise me with characters like Xen, Udina, and TIM, but so far all indications are that Bioware is going to go the predictable route with each and every one of them.

It's a damn shame.


Being callous is not something to be proud of. It's not in our human nature. We're sentient beings. We care for each other. We feel sympathy for each other. We want to help each other. THAT are character traits to be proud of. THAT are traits that makes us human.

You're no better than a machine. In fact, you're even worse than the geth. Even the geth, who ARE machines, are less callous than you are.

Your apathy towards other living creatures and lack of value for their lives concerns me.

Modifié par Luc0s, 03 août 2011 - 10:42 .

#598
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:40

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Luc0s wrote...


Being callous is not something to be proud of. It's not in our human nature.


I disagree. Humans are incapable of doing anything that is not in their nature. There is certainly nothing unique about my callousness.

#599
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Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:45

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


Being callous is not something to be proud of. It's not in our human nature.


I disagree. Humans are incapable of doing anything that is not in their nature. There is certainly nothing unique about my callousness.



Callousness is not doing something that isn't in our nature. Being callous means you LACK something that is supposed to be in our nature (e.g. empathy).

It's in our nature to feel empathy and care for other living creatures. You LACK that sympathy and you DON'T care for other living creatures.

Your lack of valuing other living creatures concerns me. If you really are as callous as you present yourself, than what's stopping you from going on a killing-spree for whatever reason you can come up with? If your answer is "nothing" then I'm even more concerned.

Modifié par Luc0s, 03 août 2011 - 10:46 .

#600
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 03 août 2011 - 10:46

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Luc0s wrote...

It's in our nature to feel sympathy and care for other living creatures. You LACK that sympathy and you DON'T care for other living creatures.


I care, but I try not to let my emotions guide my actions and beliefs.
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