677 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

 I think the real question is whether the Geth would try me for murder if I threw my laptop against a wall? 

[James2912]

Luc0s wrote...

James2912 wrote...

 I think the real question is whether the Geth would try me for murder if I threw my laptop against a wall? 

Throwing a laptop against the wall would mean as much to the geth as throwing an already-death body against the wall would mean to us. It would be a little disturbing at most.

Laptops aren't alive. They aren't sentient. They aren't self-aware.
Death bodies aren't alive. They aren't sentient. They aren't self-aware.


PS: Yes I'm fully aware that your comment probably wasn't serious and my reply is serious.

My laptop talks to me, even sometimes when its turned off.  

[General User]

James2912 wrote...

 I think the real question is whether the Geth would try me for murder if I threw my laptop against a wall? 

No.  They'd try you for cruelty to animals.

[James2912]

Luc0s wrote...

James2912 wrote...

My laptop talks to me, even sometimes when its turned off.  

LIES! 

It sounds like Samuel L. Jackson when its angry... its angry right now. In fact I am not even writing this the computer is.... 
It wants to talk to you. 
http://alice.pandorabots.com/

Edit it also has a face
http://sheepridge.pa...ee0624a5e345abd

Modifié par James2912, 03 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[Agamo45]

Luc0s wrote...

James2912 wrote...

 I think the real question is whether the Geth would try me for murder if I threw my laptop against a wall? 

Throwing a laptop against the wall would mean as much to the geth as throwing an already-death body against the wall would mean to us. It would be a little disturbing at most.

Laptops aren't alive. They aren't sentient. They aren't self-aware.
Death bodies aren't alive. They aren't sentient. They aren't self-aware.


PS: Yes I'm fully aware that your comment probably wasn't serious and my reply is serious.

By every definition of life the geth are not anymore alive than a laptop.

[Agamo45]

Luc0s wrote...

Agamo45 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

James2912 wrote...

 I think the real question is whether the Geth would try me for murder if I threw my laptop against a wall? 

Throwing a laptop against the wall would mean as much to the geth as throwing an already-death body against the wall would mean to us. It would be a little disturbing at most.

Laptops aren't alive. They aren't sentient. They aren't self-aware.
Death bodies aren't alive. They aren't sentient. They aren't self-aware.


PS: Yes I'm fully aware that your comment probably wasn't serious and my reply is serious.

By every definition of life the geth are not anymore alive than a laptop.

Yes they are.

The geth are self-aware. The geth are sentient. The geth are sapient. That is enough to classify the geth as "alive", or at least more alive than your laptop.

Besides, it's a deep philosophical question what it means to be alive. We don't can exactly say when something is alive and when something isn't. It's hard to tell. The border between alive and non-alive is wide and grey.

Not really. There is a biological definition of life.  The geth don't have living cells so they don't fit into this definition. They are basically an artificial imitation of life that should never have been allowed to exist, but they do because of the stupidity of the quarian race.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

It's this kind of thing that ultimately assures me of my moral superiority to everyone else.

I hope that was sarcastic. I hope you were joking, I really do hope that.

I'm as serious as I'm sure Inverness Moon was.

Xen is an interesting character. Smart, ambitious, and dedicated. It's a screw-up on Bioware's part that they don't let us befriend her.

Having her take our side and be buddy buddy would have mad her betrayal and switchover to an antagonist role in ME3 all the better.

You  can't make her a friend but you can certainly take her side.  Just tell the Quarians to go to war to subjugate or eliminate the Geth.
And I'm sure if it's a possible choice for ME3, the decision to support the Geth or not will make her either one of your enemies or one of your allies.
I still wouldn't want to invite her over to my cabin to watch vids on a friday night.

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 04 août 2011 - 12:00 .

[mauro2222]

Agamo45 wrote...

Not really. There is a biological definition of life.  The geth don't have living cells so they don't fit into this definition. They are basically an artificial imitation of life that should never have been allowed to exist, but they do because of the stupidity of the quarian race.

They are not biological life  so that doesn´t apply to them. They are an accident just like us. The quarians didn´t want to create a sentient species, they wanted slaves, but well they evolved, just like organic cells.

Modifié par mauro2222, 04 août 2011 - 12:23 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

An abomination? Strong words, but correct in a sense. They are the quarian's mistake and a threat to galactic stability. Currently I see them as no more than an asset which can be used against the reapers. Yet sooner or later they will have to be dealt with and destroyed and or reprogrammed.

Are they life? I don't think so, I see them as no different from any other machine, they just happen to be over-designed and malfunctioning in the worst way possible.

I have little love for the geth or quarians, they can fight it out for the time being. Yet it will probably fall to one of the other races to crush them.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 04 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[xXljoshlXx]

Anything can be correct in a sense. Humans are a threat to galactic stability so are all of the other races so all of them should be destroyed or brainwashed right?

[Kasai666]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

 Reminds me of the scene from Full Metal Alchemist. 

Edward: Water, 35 litres. Carbon, 20kg. Ammonia, 4 litres. Lime, 1.5kg. Phosperus, 800g. Salt, 250 g. Niter, 100g. Sulphur, 80g. Fluorine, 7.5g. Iron, 5g. Silicon 3g. And fifteen other elements. Those are the elements to make an average adult human body. You can buy these elemental ingredients at the market with the pocket money of a child. Humans are made so cheaply. 

Geth may be made cheaply but saying they are just technology doesn't really do the Geth justice. 

The Quarians made a mistake, from the start they should have accepted the Geth as equals and created a mutually beneficial arrangment. 

It's not just fear that would have to be overcome though, I'm sure many would find it difficult to accept a sentient machine as an equal. 

I love this person. I truly do. I also agree with said person. The Quarians over reacted to a comment made by one geth platform. It asked if it had a soul. The quarians found that to be a precursor to genocide and shot first without asking questions. If anyone is an abomination, its the quarians. They played god and lost. 

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

But Saphra Deden, what reason do you have for thinking we could not (in the same theoretical expanse of time with the same theoretical insight) do the same thing with an organic brain?
 

An organic brain is not a series of algorythms. You could simulate one that way, in theory. However that is not literally what it is. It is complex matter and energy.

A geth is not. A geth is literally those symbols you've written down on the paper.

 Symbols and algorythms are a language we use to explaning and describe processes. Software and programming is not literally a series of symbols you would find if you cracked open a computer, it is a series of commands that mean the hardware acts in a certain way

 Considering the Geth, their mobile platforms, memory storage, and Legion (the hardware that when brought together achieves the symptoms that would suggest sentience); for that sentience to be real their hardware must be complex matter as well. As we here have never studied the inside of a Geth, we cannot know how complex their hardware is, but given their actions it must be extremely complex. Although the remarkable ability to move those run times (and overall configurations) from one hardware to another gives them a differennt view of that hardware, you couldn't claim that they would continue to exist were every piece of Geth hardware wiped out. As such it is a combination of that sophisticated, extremely complex hardware, and the specific configuration and run times, that bring about the geth sentience, just as in a brain you need the complex matter as well as the genetic code which decides what goes where, and the changes in energy configuration that are memory and learning

 The Geth sentience is then defined by the configuration brought about by their run times, as those run times can move from one body to another. In the same way, our mind / consciousness / personality can only be understood as the specific arrangment of that complex hardware that is the brain (its genetic composition and how it has developed over time, changes in memory storage etc.)

 If it is a belief of yours that only organic matter can bring about consciousness / subjective experience / emotions etc. then I don't hold that against you, but you should admit that it is a belief. 

 If you intend to show that by definition the vastly complex matter and energy in a brain can bring about results that similarly vastly complex hardware and energy in a synthetic construct, then you need to state what is about the remaining differences that means one thing can result whereas the other can't. And seeing as though you, or I, or the best neuroscientists in the world don't know what about that complex matter and energy in the brain can bring about consciousness and sentience, I don't rate your choices and being able to point out what bit of organic complex matter and energy can produce the outcome and yet cannot be recreate synthetically using equally complex matter and energy (just different elements)

[lovgreno]

It all depends on who you ask. From a quarian perspective I guess it's understandable to call them abominations. But the geth doesn't need anyones aproval or opinions about who they are. They think they are a sentient lifeform and don't care if it doesn't work with your irrelevant opinions. They also have the guns and numbers to defend their own way of life if necesary so it seems like the galaxy better have to deal with the fact that they do exist even if it is a uncomfortable fact for some.

[goofyomnivore]

I think they're life. I believe that technology can/does impact evolution/life. I see the Geth as an extreme case of this. However they could just be an analog of life. I don't really know. Not enough context in game for me anyways to make an informed opinion on this.

[mintyman]

They can think and act as they want and they only kill because that is what they are told, so no they are not abominations

[TheZyzyva]

 First of all, Saphra, you have come across as a bigot that displays psychopathic tendencies in this thread. Not sure how you act in real life, but that is certainly the way you have acted here. Sorry if you find that harsh.

Truely we know very little about the Geth. What we do know is that they are smarter as they grow in number, and that Legion is likely the smartest single platform since he bears 10x more Geth than any other one we know of. We know that they share information through their platforms, but must network up to share specifics. We know that they are capable of coming to different conclusions through the heretics, although it seems that they rarely ever act outside the majority. And we know that single programs are often inconsequential to the whole as they are often shuffled about in the network and share data and vicariously a personality.

What we don't know is a much bigger story. Legion tells us almost all that we know of the Geth, but it's what he simply is that hints at so much more, and is left unclear. Do Geth have emotions? Despite what Legion says, he appears to certainly have some. At the very least, Shepard holds some sentimental value to him as can be concluded to it being Shepards armor he uses to patch up a hole that was two years old. Can Legion be recreated? He has been away from the network for two years, and we can make a logical leap that that would be longer than any platform has been on its own. How much has changed with his Geth coding over that time and is he even compatible with the network anymore? Or is he now the next step up with no bacwards compatibilty? That Legion is so unique and so far removed from the rest of the Geth makes him so very interesting, to me at least, and certainly shows just how "alive" the Geth can be. 

Maybe my thoughts on the matter go to far, but to me Legion is the next step for the Geth. He says they want to be as one, but I believe that he shows them headed down a different path, one of differentation and uniqueness, one that would lead to a wholely realized Geth culture in the future. They're not there yet, but they're certainly in infancy. 

Not to start a whole other flame war, but killing of the Geth to me is akin to abortion, only not of one creature, but an entire species. Obviously I have  made some assumptions and leaps, but Legion truely intrigues me for those reasons. If he is still only a machine to you, then I don't think I can do anything more to change your mind. Sorry for the long winded post, I'm just really into the Geth storyline.

[Bcuz]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Some of the people on the other topic argued that the geth are an abomination because they are unnatural. "The geth are not truly alive" was their argument. What do you guys have to say about that?

I'm sure most of them are quarian/tali fanatics,  that seems to be the way things work.

Tali fan here.

Geth are not an abomination, and I find the overall state of affairs in Quarian politics regarding the geth to be rather silly. And while no one enjoys a good laugh  more than I

[Bcuz]

Thanks for the entertainment Luc0s and Saphra, you have put me through 2 bags of popcorn reading your conversation so far, almost choked laughing twice.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Are the Geth abominations? No. Vorcha? Well, maybe. Well, more like vermin.

The old machines need organics. Geth oppose the old machines. The Old Machines oppose Geth. Geth want peace and to be left alone. There won't be conflict unless organics involve themselves. Organics will involve themselves. The Old Machines fear that in the power vacuum they leave, Geth will occupy the rest of the galaxy and deprive them of their semi-100,000 yr harvest of fresh intelligent organics.

Now the true abomination was Overlord. Interfacing a human with a VI to give it true enhanced intelligence was probably going to be what Cerberus and TIM had in mind for the reaper he was wanting to build in the CB, hoping it would be one he could control. No goo necessary at that point. Just replace the human when it wore out. Now that would be an abomination.