677 réponses à ce sujet

[ThanesSniper]

CMDR Locke wrote...

Here's a question I asked myself that made me think Geth are just thinking software.

Legion has approx 1500 Geth in his mobile platform.
If you honestly believe they are the same as a sentient species. Ask yourself.

If you had to choose between saving Legion (1500 approx geth) or ONE THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED sentient species which would you save?

1500 other species, because Legion can just re-download.

But that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If Geth are "just software" then organic life is "just chemical reactions". You're oversimplifying what the Geth are, and that's probably the reason you seem to view them the way you do.

[Quole]

How is Xen`s idea of brainwashing the geth into worshiping the quarians any worse than brainwashing the heretics into siding with the true geth?
Not that I necessarily agree, but it would end the war.

Modifié par Quole, 10 août 2011 - 04:31 .

[ThanesSniper]

Quole wrote...

How is Xen`s idea of brainwashing the geth into worshiping the quarians any worse than brainwashing the heretics into siding with the true geth?
Not that I necessarily agree, but it would end the war.

Because instead of becoming slaves to the Quarians, they just become blank slates that can choose whatever belief they want again. 

[Googlesaurus]

Quole wrote...

How is Xen`s idea of brainwashing the geth into worshiping the quarians any worse than brainwashing the heretics into siding with the true geth?
Not that I necessarily agree, but it would end the war.

That's the issue. Tell me, what's the difference between stealing because you're poor and stealing because you're a dick? 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

TheZyzyva wrote...

Agreed. I like Legion. People I don't know? Up in the air. Depends where the 1500 are coming from. Reminds me of that button movie that killed someone but gave you a cool mil. It flopped with good reason.

Pro-tip: Avoid "logical hypotheticals" in a debate or argument. They often end poorly.

Thing is, they are different. You don't see them f***ing each other over for a percentage.

Stealing because you're poor could be for simple survival -- as in stealing food to survive. Stealing food when you're not wanting for food would be different.

Yes they are both stealing, but one is less wrong than the other. Ah, moral relativism. Don't ya love it?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[Quole]

ThanesSniper wrote...

Quole wrote...

How is Xen`s idea of brainwashing the geth into worshiping the quarians any worse than brainwashing the heretics into siding with the true geth?
Not that I necessarily agree, but it would end the war.

Because instead of becoming slaves to the Quarians, they just become blank slates that can choose whatever belief they want again. 

... not they cant. They are forced into believing what the true geth believe.

[Quole]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

Agreed. I like Legion. People I don't know? Up in the air. Depends where the 1500 are coming from. Reminds me of that button movie that killed someone but gave you a cool mil. It flopped with good reason.

Pro-tip: Avoid "logical hypotheticals" in a debate or argument. They often end poorly.

Thing is, they are different. You don't see them f***ing each other over for a percentage.

I C WUT U DID THAR

[Googlesaurus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

TheZyzyva wrote...

Agreed. I like Legion. People I don't know? Up in the air. Depends where the 1500 are coming from. Reminds me of that button movie that killed someone but gave you a cool mil. It flopped with good reason.

Pro-tip: Avoid "logical hypotheticals" in a debate or argument. They often end poorly.

Thing is, they are different. You don't see them f***ing each other over for a percentage.

Stealing because you're poor could be for simple survival -- as in stealing food to survive. Stealing food when you're not wanting for food would be different.

Yes they are both stealing, but one is less wrong than the other. Ah, moral relativism. Don't ya love it?

So what's the difference? When do intentions actually make a difference in the moral quality of a decision? 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 10 août 2011 - 04:46 .

[Quole]

Maybe people should just stop being poor

[ThanesSniper]

Quole wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

Quole wrote...

How is Xen`s idea of brainwashing the geth into worshiping the quarians any worse than brainwashing the heretics into siding with the true geth?
Not that I necessarily agree, but it would end the war.

Because instead of becoming slaves to the Quarians, they just become blank slates that can choose whatever belief they want again. 

... not they cant. They are forced into believing what the true geth believe.

Are you sure? I could have sworn they were just wiped.

Oh well, doesn't matter. Heretics are a small portion of the Geth, and they were rewritten to help stop the Reapers, and will still retain some measure of free will. Xen wants to rewrite all the Geth to serve the Quarians, not to stop the Reapers. There's a huge difference between the two actions.

[Quole]

ThanesSniper wrote...

Quole wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

Quole wrote...

How is Xen`s idea of brainwashing the geth into worshiping the quarians any worse than brainwashing the heretics into siding with the true geth?
Not that I necessarily agree, but it would end the war.

Because instead of becoming slaves to the Quarians, they just become blank slates that can choose whatever belief they want again. 

... not they cant. They are forced into believing what the true geth believe.

Are you sure? I could have sworn they were just wiped.

Oh well, doesn't matter. Heretics are a small portion of the Geth, and they were rewritten to help stop the Reapers, and will still retain some measure of free will. Xen wants to rewrite all the Geth to serve the Quarians, not to stop the Reapers. There's a huge difference between the two actions.

No, you reprogram the virus so it brainwashes them.

Also, if they serve the quarians they will also likely work to stop the reapers... and yes, it is a large difference in number but the principle is the same. Again, I dont necessarily agree with Xen.

Modifié par Quole, 10 août 2011 - 04:51 .

[bobdooly]

Quole wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

Quole wrote...

How is Xen`s idea of brainwashing the geth into worshiping the quarians any worse than brainwashing the heretics into siding with the true geth?
Not that I necessarily agree, but it would end the war.

Because instead of becoming slaves to the Quarians, they just become blank slates that can choose whatever belief they want again. 

... not they cant. They are forced into believing what the true geth believe.

Either way, the heretics were going to do it to the true geth. Turning their won weapon against them is morally superior, but only by so much. I personally rewrote them because they operate by logic: I need everybody against the Reapers and it suits my purposes (sp?) to do that, and they would understand.

[ThanesSniper]

Quole wrote...

No, you reprogram the virus so it brainwashes them.

Also, if they serve the quarians they will also likely work to stop the reapers... and yes, it is a large difference in number but the principle is the same. Again, I dont necessarily agree with Xen.

I would disagree. The heretic Geth wouldn't lose all of their free will. I'm not quite sure what Geth do in their free time, so this is going to be a ridiculous example, but bear with me. Even brainwashed to the normal Geth's way of thinking (not worshipping the Reapers), the heretics would still be in control of most of their actions. If they wanted to play soccer, they'd play soccer. If they wanted to eat ice cream, they'd eat ice cream. If all the Geth were under Quarian control though, they'd have no free will. They wouldn't want to do anything. If you found a Geth playing soccer, it would be because it was told to play soccer.

Also, the heretic Geth have recently been proven to be aggressive, hostile, and genocidal, so their brainwashing is justified. The normal Geth have recently been proven to be open to peace with the Quarians.

And that's how I see it as different.

[TheZyzyva]

Has this become an argument over the morality of Legions loyalty mission?
Since I'm not really seeing the distinction between the arguments here, let me ask how would, or should even, you treat any other galactic criminal? Assuming that's what the heretic Geth can be considered, are they different from anything else? If brainwashing the criminal out of "biologicals" was an option, would that be ok? Or if the mission had a third option of confining the heretics to isolation, would that be the most ethical?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The heretics are infected programs where part of their code was recoded by the Reapers to serve them. To Legion the choice is to run an anti-virus to clean the code of the Reaper modification, or you have the choice of just eliminating the code. We're not talking about the mobile platforms. Geth are the individual programs.

Your computer is infected with a virus. You have two choices. One is to run your anti-malware programs to clean the operating system. The other is to just wipe the hard drive. Which is more ethical?

The fact that the individual programs load into various mobile platforms doesn't mean each individual platform has sapience. It's just that when they're in a group their programs total up to where the group achieves sapience.

At this point Xen's idea of rewriting them wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for the Quarians, and the Geth would remember nothing of what they did before. However, there are far more Geth than there were, and they would simply reach that sapience sooner, and given the Quarian/Geth history, the entire process could happen all over again. Perhaps this is what Tali meant when she looked at Xen and said "you're insane."

Legion is an exception. It has sufficient programs running within it to achieve sapience. I would guess that Legion wouldn't be the exception for much longer, however. Once that happens you have something different. You have individual sapient mobile platforms that eventually will ask the question "Who am I?" When you get that you get true sentience from individuals. That's when changing the code becomes unethical.

The Heretics weren't at that level. So no third option was necessary.

[captainoblivious]

In my opinion, the geth aren't as valuable as organics. They exhibit signs of sapience, but it could just be programming telling them to act in a certain way that simulates it without them actually having self awareness. The same is true for everything they do. They might just be acting on their programing withought a real understanding or reason of why.

If they are self aware, however, which is what I think, that increases their value to little above insects. Insects struggle to survive without actually knowing why. It is a series of reflexes. Many animals are self aware, that doesn't make them equal to humans.

Emotions are the real determinant here. They give things actual desires to live. Not achieving a goal makes an organic upset; I don't think we have an inclination to believe that the geth would experience sadness if they didn't achieve a goal. I think they would only move on to something else. Their achievements hold no value other than that they did what their programming told them to do. If one geth dies, other geth don't get sad, their ability to think or work quickly diminishes, which they will fight against, because their programming forces them to try to be as efficient as possible.
However, they may have the potential of developing emotions. From when legion said "no data available" it seemed to me that he might have motives that he himself doesn't understand, such as emotion. (or he was hiding something from us). The possibility of developing emotion does make me hold them in higher regard than insects, however, a mammal that feels pain, happiness, or sadness still holds more value in my eyes until they actually do develop emotions. Just because something can talk or think doesn't make it as valuable as something that has emotions. Killing a geth to me would be slightly worse than killing an insect, but slightly better than killing a monkey, for example.

That's my opinion anyway. It's changed many times, and it's open to changing again.

[jshadow]

I'll just say this: Judging other species by your own standards is racist, especially if they're sentient machines. Don't discuss what's ethically correct if it's not your own kind.

[CMDR Locke]

jshadow wrote...

I'll just say this: Judging other species by your own standards is racist, especially if they're sentient machines. Don't discuss what's ethically correct if it's not your own kind.

The problem here is that you assume it's a species already.  Yes if we voted to call geth a species, and gave them equal rights, and then judged them against ourselves it would be raciest.

But, Geth have not been given species status yet.  They are not like us.  The feel no pain no remorse.  They don't feel guilt or compasion.  They don't struggle daily to survive.  They don't have to procure food, water, need to breath.  They do not need warmth or risk freezing to death.  

In fact we don't even know if they have a fight or flight reflex.  It seem like maybe they do since they fought back against the Quarians.  Or was it simply just another program that allowed them to fight back?  I mean other species have Mechs that are programmed to fight and kill, so it's not a stretch that a Quarian built Geth may have had similier programming.

In fact at the very least Geth seem closer to Brainiac than any sort of AI demonstrated anywhere.  Geth aren't even as advanced as EDI.  EDI tells you her name.  "Legion" is all like "derp herp we is Geth"   Once again if the Geth fail to reconize themselves as anything but a collection of thiking software, then I am not racist for calling them thinking software they have hundreds of years thinking at the speed of light to to figure themselves out and yet can't even answer the question "But why did you use my armor, and not use something else to repair yourself sooner?"

Inability to understand that simple concept is proof they are no more sentient and deserving species consideration than a speak and spell.

[ThanesSniper]

CMDR Locke wrote...

But, Geth have not been given species status yet.  They are not like us.  The feel no pain no remorse.  They don't feel guilt or compasion.  They don't struggle daily to survive.  They don't have to procure food, water, need to breath.  They do not need warmth or risk freezing to death.  

Lolwut?

So because the Geth aren't like us, they're not a species? Bacteria aren't like us either. Bacteria feel no pain, remorse, guilt, or compassion. They don't struggle daily to survive. Some species don't have to procure food, water, or breathe. Some species don't need warmth or risk freezing to death. But there are still SPECIES of bacteria.

I've concluded that you have no idea what you're talking about.

[CMDR Locke]

ThanesSniper wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

But, Geth have not been given species status yet.  They are not like us.  The feel no pain no remorse.  They don't feel guilt or compasion.  They don't struggle daily to survive.  They don't have to procure food, water, need to breath.  They do not need warmth or risk freezing to death.  

Lolwut?

So because the Geth aren't like us, they're not a species? Bacteria aren't like us either. Bacteria feel no pain, remorse, guilt, or compassion. They don't struggle daily to survive. Some species don't have to procure food, water, or breathe. Some species don't need warmth or risk freezing to death. But there are still SPECIES of bacteria.

I've concluded that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I think this is actualy a strawman defense.  I'm using the word to describe the already reconized sentient/sapient/self-aware/free-thinking community of collected individuals given rights by other's in the same boat.

So please take your "waaah he's using this word this way" defense and realize that in Mass Effect there are THREE Alien Races/Species that do not offer the same rights to the other dozens of Alen Species because they have not proven to be ready for it.

The Geth are NOT the same as any other reconized sentient/sapient species.  Read my last post as to why.

[ThanesSniper]

CMDR Locke wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

But, Geth have not been given species status yet.  They are not like us.  The feel no pain no remorse.  They don't feel guilt or compasion.  They don't struggle daily to survive.  They don't have to procure food, water, need to breath.  They do not need warmth or risk freezing to death.  

Lolwut?

So because the Geth aren't like us, they're not a species? Bacteria aren't like us either. Bacteria feel no pain, remorse, guilt, or compassion. They don't struggle daily to survive. Some species don't have to procure food, water, or breathe. Some species don't need warmth or risk freezing to death. But there are still SPECIES of bacteria.

I've concluded that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I think this is actualy a strawman defense.  I'm using the word to describe the already reconized sentient/sapient/self-aware/free-thinking community of collected individuals given rights by other's in the same boat.

So please take your "waaah he's using this word this way" defense and realize that in Mass Effect there are THREE Alien Races/Species that do not offer the same rights to the other dozens of Alen Species because they have not proven to be ready for it.

The Geth are NOT the same as any other reconized sentient/sapient species.  Read my last post as to why.

They're not the same, but that doesn't mean they're not sentient/sapient. They've been proven to have emotional attachment to objects, they've asked questions such as "Am I alive?" and "Do I have a soul?", and they can recognize the difference between the survival of an individual unit and the survival of their species. If a cat did these things, it would be considered sentient. But because the Geth rely on electronics and metal plates instead of chemical reactions and various tissues, they're somehow still no different than speak and spells.

[CMDR Locke]

ThanesSniper wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

ThanesSniper wrote...

CMDR Locke wrote...

But, Geth have not been given species status yet.  They are not like us.  The feel no pain no remorse.  They don't feel guilt or compasion.  They don't struggle daily to survive.  They don't have to procure food, water, need to breath.  They do not need warmth or risk freezing to death.  

Lolwut?

So because the Geth aren't like us, they're not a species? Bacteria aren't like us either. Bacteria feel no pain, remorse, guilt, or compassion. They don't struggle daily to survive. Some species don't have to procure food, water, or breathe. Some species don't need warmth or risk freezing to death. But there are still SPECIES of bacteria.

I've concluded that you have no idea what you're talking about.

I think this is actualy a strawman defense.  I'm using the word to describe the already reconized sentient/sapient/self-aware/free-thinking community of collected individuals given rights by other's in the same boat.

So please take your "waaah he's using this word this way" defense and realize that in Mass Effect there are THREE Alien Races/Species that do not offer the same rights to the other dozens of Alen Species because they have not proven to be ready for it.

The Geth are NOT the same as any other reconized sentient/sapient species.  Read my last post as to why.

They're not the same, but that doesn't mean they're not sentient/sapient. They've been proven to have emotional attachment to objects, they've asked questions such as "Am I alive?" and "Do I have a soul?", and they can recognize the difference between the survival of an individual unit and the survival of their species. If a cat did these things, it would be considered sentient. But because the Geth rely on electronics and metal plates instead of chemical reactions and various tissues, they're somehow still no different than speak and spells.

A machine comprised of thousands of individual programs wouldn't need to ask "Do I have a soul."  And, they also would know they are not "Alive" by the pure definition of the word.  Had they asked "Was I created only for this purpose?"  or "I do not enjoy this task I would like to do something else."  I would agree with you.  Also I'm pretty sure they never used the word "I" to describe themselves.  It was most likely "Creator -Quarian Name-rank- do we have a soul?"  But, once again this is an A.I. that can out think a biological brain by many thousands of times faster.  And, should have already known with the information available that Geth are programs and not Spiritual/Emotional driven creatures that require ideas like a "soul" to explain there most basic actions.

I also find it funny that Legion couldn't come to a consensus on whether to rewrite-destroy I just have this weird image of the programs allowing him access to battle, killing, destruction, fighting, combat, ect saying to destroy, and then his technical programs of hacking, security counter measures ect, saying to rewrite based purely on their coding.

I'd also be interested in knowing how he handles learning something new.  Say if we wanted him to cook the meals.  Would Legion's programs write a new program or would a current program get rewritten?  Or would he simply stand there saying "No Data Available." proving Geth are not sentient.

[didymos1120]

CMDR Locke wrote...

But, Geth have not been given species status yet. 

They're considered a "race".  The fact that biologists haven't classified them taxonomically is rather irrelevant.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

ThanesSniper wrote...

They're not the same, but that doesn't mean they're not sentient/sapient. They've been proven to have emotional attachment to objects, they've asked questions such as "Am I alive?" and "Do I have a soul?", and they can recognize the difference between the survival of an individual unit and the survival of their species. If a cat did these things, it would be considered sentient. But because the Geth rely on electronics and metal plates instead of chemical reactions and various tissues, they're somehow still no different than speak and spells.

But perhaps this is only because they've heard the Quarian talk about a soul and being alive. They see the Quarian expressing emotion then with enough of the platforms together they have the ability to ask those questions.

Even EDI has simulated emotional responses. Although I consider EDI more evolved than the Geth. "You are my crewmates." Still that is consistent with the three laws for robots.

Law I / A robot may not harm a human or, by inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.Law II / A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the first law.Law III / A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the first or second law.

The Quarian apparently didn't consider that the linked intelligence would get to this point where those would become a factor and neglected to put that in their initial programming.

EDI I would assume would have been programmed with these as part of its protocol. This does not prevent EDI from carrying out its mission from TIM, however, so long as that mission doesn't directly involve it violating any of the laws. It may gather information to be passed to TIM that TIM could use to do those things, however.

The Geth are not a species. They do not have DNA. They assemble themselves. The do not reproduce. However, will "skin jobs" be in their future?

The idea of the existance of a soul gets into religious discussion and I won't go there. I do find it quite ironic that the Heretics worshipped the Old Machines. Not logical.

If you wanted Legion to cook meals for you, you'd better be damned sure you have a good recipe, because Legion would prepare it exactly as written.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 10 août 2011 - 07:19 .

[ThanesSniper]

CMDR Locke wrote...

A machine comprised of thousands of individual programs wouldn't need to ask "Do I have a soul."  And, they also would know they are not "Alive" by the pure definition of the word.  Had they asked "Was I created only for this purpose?"  or "I do not enjoy this task I would like to do something else."  I would agree with you.  Also I'm pretty sure they never used the word "I" to describe themselves.  It was most likely "Creator -Quarian Name-rank- do we have a soul?"  But, once again this is an A.I. that can out think a biological brain by many thousands of times faster.  And, should have already known with the information available that Geth are programs and not Spiritual/Emotional driven creatures that require ideas like a "soul" to explain there most basic actions.

Life is defined as the property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
www.thefreedictionary.com/life

Geth have internal reactions, grow, reproduce, and respond to outside stimuli. Maybe not in the classical sense, but they still satisfy the qualifications to being "alive".

Also, we humans should also know that we don't have souls and are little more than a series of chemical reactions bound inside cells and tissues. Yet we still question whether we have a soul or not. Perhaps that irrationality is a sign of our and their sentience.

I'd also be interested in knowing how he handles learning something new.  Say if we wanted him to cook the meals.  Would Legion's programs write a new program or would a current program get rewritten?  Or would he simply stand there saying "No Data Available." proving Geth are not sentient.

I'd imagine he can learn and evolve since we already have programs that can do that now.

Modifié par ThanesSniper, 10 août 2011 - 07:47 .