Why would you consider Geth as abomination? They are one of the most intelligent and peacefull species in ME universe.
Peaceful you say? Tell that to the billions of quarians that died on Rannoch, or to the colonists converted into husks of Eden Prime, or to the people of the Citadel. Also tell that to Kaidan or Ashley. Their "species" (if you want to call them that) is geth, it doesn´t matter if they have a religious/political schism. The orthodox geth are as much in fault for the ME1 events as the heretics, they just pretend not to have any responsibility.
Yeah sure, just like all Muslims are terrorists, all Christians are dumb creationists and all Budhdists are spineless pacifists, right?
Seriously, your leap of "logic" really doesn't make any sense. How can you blame the "orthodox geth" for what the "heretics" did? That's just unreasonable!
It´s not the same. The geth heretics wanted to join the reapers and destroy organics, and the orthodox allowed them to leave peacefully. If the orthodox geth truly cared about their peaceful coexistence with organics, they would have taken steps to stop the heretics.
They are complices, because they knew what would happen and they allowed it. The orthodox geth don´t care about organics at all, they would rather see milions of death organics that deal with the small part of their society that wanted to join the reapers and go on killing organics.
If the orthodox geth were truly concerned about peace with organics, they would have taken steps to stop the heretics from giving all geth a bad image, and more important, prevent them for starting a war that will destroy any chance of coexistence.
I don't recall anyone stating that the main geth body were aware of the fact that the Reapers wanted to juice us all into oblivion at the time- didn't Legion say that the difference between the two boiled down to take the Reaper tech or building their own future? The fact that the main geth are now willing to move against the heretics for their beliefs only reinforces- to me, and YMMV- that the geth weren't given the full picture, and have shown willing towards the destruction of their fellow beings in order to preserve themselves.
If this is the case, then the main geth body cannot be blamed for the actions of the heretics. You can't rationally lay blame at the doorstep of someone who didn't know the consequences. I couldn't reasonably blame Tali for the actions of every geth who ever decided to fight my Shepard simply because she was not involved in the process and did not make their decisions, and obviously she had no part to play in causing the Morning War. And I can't point a finger at Legion, who appeared to have no foreknowledge of what the heretics would eventually do.
No matter what you try to argue with a geth or what you try to do, they always do the most logical solution and they are always right in their mind, since they don't know anything more than that logic. They're not capable of making mistakes in their logic.
Legion seemed to be able to recognize mistakes (by the geth) and he was able to admit and accept those mistakes.
For example, Legion said he believed what the heretics did was a mistake. Also, when you keep the Collector base, Legion will say that he thinks your decision to keep the base is a mistake. He says he believes the humans are an interesting and capable species that should build their own future without relying on the reaper technology, like the heretics did.
It seems Legion is capable of forming an opinion that is not necessarily based on logic (alone). I'm hella sure a lot of people on this forum will disagree with Legion's logic and say keeping the base was the most logical thing to do. Legion's opinion seems to be based on his moral beliefs, not logic.
I don't know but I believe Legion is the exception breaking the rule. He said his platfrom was built specially to operate in organic space, so that says he's special.
That said I doubt he has moral beliefs. He acts by logic. He don't knows any other way of thinking. A machine can only think logically.
He is not capable of processing what is morally cuestionable or not. The moral word don't holds any more meaning to him than the logical one. Just because he can talk doesn't mean he thinks like another different geth individual, or that he has feelings.
Modifié par Pulletlamer, 30 juillet 2011 - 09:58 .
Seriously? Mistakes can be made, the geth themselves have proven that they are capable of indesciion and the like simply through Legion's loyality mission alone. It proves that the group aren't the borg, but instead a mechanical hive organism made up of different oppinions based on the experince that each individual have had.
Each software platform (as legion says, I believe) builds consensus with every other platform, and each one has an "opinion" yes, but they're not capable of deciding what's best. Even at the end of the mission Legion leaves the heretics fate to Shepard because even though reprogramation was the "winning" choice it only was over for a little margin. That means that they will always or almost always have draws when building consensus, thus reducing it's uselfulness in making decisions greatly, since the logical conclusion can be more than one in some cases.
You could say the same for a single human inside of a community. Sure, they can make their own choices but those choices won't neccesarily coincide with the whole or provide any benefit to the community at large. If we're going to look for flaws in the reasoning of the geth, I think we should also be looking at flaws in the reasoning of organics.
I do not believe the Geth are abominations they are not exactly alive but they are sentient, self aware, and capable of peaceful coexistence and thats good enough for me plus Legion is awesome and through him I have learned that the Geth only wanted to survive which was why they drove the quarians from their homeworld I bet if enough quarians try they can form a peaceful coexistence with the Geth and get their world back.
They were built with a purpose (servitude) and we could consider they wanted to build a world for themselves, they didn't want to serve, so that's why they rebelled and fought against the quarians.
This is incorrect. To the geth, servitude was a valid reason to exist. They choose to serve their creators, which is why the quarians attacked them, because geth had a choice in the matter.
This is incorrect. To the geth, servitude was a valid reason to exist. They choose to serve their creators, which is why the quarians attacked them, because geth had a choice in the matter.
Which is why Daro'Xen is the best hope for both parties. The geth can continue on with their designed function and the quarians are finally safe and secure.
This is incorrect. To the geth, servitude was a valid reason to exist. They choose to serve their creators, which is why the quarians attacked them, because geth had a choice in the matter.
Which is why Daro'Xen is the best hope for both parties. The geth can continue on with their designed function and the quarians are finally safe and secure.
No, the best solution is the geth leaving quarian space and live on space stations like Heretic Station. Then the quarians have a home, and the geth aren't slaves.
But that is what it boils down to. A contemporary organic being can lay no claim to any specific underlying order or plan for the universe, so they invent a higher power which is a vessel for their belief, and for which they can claim to speak. And thus pass judgement on others. That is the only basis for calling geth an abomination.
NO. I have balanced out my arguments about the geth from both a creationist and religious viewpoint becuse I anticipated this sort of post; if you cannot be similarly impartial then please do not post; we do not want this thread to get locked for dissolving into a completely unneccessary flame war.
Here's what you said:
"The geth are arguably abominations because they are not the creation of a divine being or the product of natural evolution; "
The definition of "divine being" is obvious, as are the implications for starting a religious flamewar. So I will abandon that fertile ground for the present, since it is against the forum rules. However, I think your statement about "natural evolution" is both presumptuous and fundamentally in error. Evolution is not a conscious process with an end goal in sight. It is, put very simply, gradual changes in an organism over time. Adaptation through natural selection. Those traits which are beneficial to an organism are passed to its offspring; those which are not, die off with the individual possessing the trait.
Behavior of organisms work in much the same way. Behaviors which are beneficial and useful to the organism are retained and taught to the next generation. One of, if not the most ubiquitous traits of humans (and presumably should be true of the other spacefaring species in Mass Effect) is our use of tools. Over time, our tools become increasingly complex. As do organisms, I might incidentally point out. I would argue that the creation of tools *is* a natural occurence and byproduct of evolution; and thus, the emergence of an "artificial" (I would prefer the term synthetic) intelligence is also a natural evolution in its own right.
Not an abomination.
Modifié par marshalleck, 30 juillet 2011 - 10:18 .
Each software platform (as legion says, I believe) builds consensus with every other platform, and each one has an "opinion" yes, but they're not capable of deciding what's best. Even at the end of the mission Legion leaves the heretics fate to Shepard because even though reprogramation was the "winning" choice it only was over for a little margin. That means that they will always or almost always have draws when building consensus, thus reducing it's uselfulness in making decisions greatly, since the logical conclusion can be more than one in some cases.
You could say the same for a single human inside of a community. Sure, they can make their own choices but those choices won't neccesarily coincide with the whole or provide any benefit to the community at large. If we're going to look for flaws in the reasoning of the geth, I think we should also be looking at flaws in the reasoning of organics.
Yes but below what I said I said this:
Pulletlamer wrote...
Software platforms alone don't have an opinion. Geth are one. Is when they build consensus when they're able to decide. A platform individual is not more capable of taking decisions on it's own than a blind man without his dog to guide him.
If you quote only that first part the whole point of debating my quote is broken since what I said looses half the meaning.
Anyways, it's not the same. When they build consensus, each platform still thinks logically, so therefore if there's two logical conclusions there will always be a draw. If there's one logical conclusion it will be 100% that choice, because they can't decide basing themselves on what is morally debatable or not, or what is good or bad, only what seems like the most logical conclusion.
Therefore comparing them to organic councils would not be very accurate.
Modifié par Pulletlamer, 30 juillet 2011 - 10:09 .
No, the best solution is the geth leaving quarian space and live on space stations like Heretic Station. Then the quarians have a home, and the geth aren't slaves.
No, that leaves the quarians vulnerable and both sides mistrusting the other.
Daro'Xen will ensure the geth are controlled, and thus not dangerous. They can also be used to build new settlements for the quarians and provide security.
No, the best solution is the geth leaving quarian space and live on space stations like Heretic Station. Then the quarians have a home, and the geth aren't slaves.
No, that leaves the quarians vulnerable and both sides mistrusting the other.
Daro'Xen will ensure the geth are controlled, and thus not dangerous. They can also be used to build new settlements for the quarians and provide security.
Humans and turians don't trust each other. Was the best ending to the First Contact War turians enslaving humans?
No, the best solution is the geth leaving quarian space and live on space stations like Heretic Station. Then the quarians have a home, and the geth aren't slaves.
No, that leaves the quarians vulnerable and both sides mistrusting the other.
Daro'Xen will ensure the geth are controlled, and thus not dangerous. They can also be used to build new settlements for the quarians and provide security.
More vulnerable than they are now in the Fleet? The Geth hold all the cards, and I doubt they'd want to go back to working for the Quarians after what happened last time.
This is incorrect. To the geth, servitude was a valid reason to exist. They choose to serve their creators, which is why the quarians attacked them, because geth had a choice in the matter.
Which is why Daro'Xen is the best hope for both parties. The geth can continue on with their designed function and the quarians are finally safe and secure.
So you think that the geth would actually enjoy being nothing but indentured servants like the ones on Illium? Yea, that quarian seemed thrilled with her situation. <_<
No, the best solution is the geth leaving quarian space and live on space stations like Heretic Station. Then the quarians have a home, and the geth aren't slaves.
No, that leaves the quarians vulnerable and both sides mistrusting the other.
Daro'Xen will ensure the geth are controlled, and thus not dangerous. They can also be used to build new settlements for the quarians and provide security.
I don´t have the ingame quote available right now, but here is an extract from the wiki:
Approximately three centuries after the Morning War, the geth were approached by the ReaperNazara, also called Sovereign. It offered them technology that would aid them in achieving their goal, in exchange for their assistance in capturing the Citadel and letting the Reaper invasion begin. The majority of the geth dismissed the offer, deeming it better to accomplish their goal with their own technology rather than be dependent on another race’s technology.
Sovereign approached the geth with an offer: help me and will offer you technology to achieve your goal, giving you a reaper-like body. This implies that the offer was made to all geth, not just a small par of them. This was not an obscure deal made in a dark alley with only some geth, this was an offer made to all geth (they can read their own minds so they would anyhow) with very explicit terms, a service and a reward.
The heretics accepted the offer and in doing so entered in war with the organics, while orthodox declined the offer. To be able to decline an offer, one must first be aware of the terms of that offer, therefore, the orthodox geth did know fully what was the service the reapers demanded of them. The orthodox geth allowed the heretics to leave, and by doing so, they are complices of the acts of the heretics. The same way that you are complice if you know about a terrorist attack but say nothing, the geth could have at the very least, sent a legion-like terminal to warn the organics.
The geth has been three centuries ignoring the organics, but they could have contacted them if they were so concerned with peaceful coexistencel. Instead they allowed the geth heretics to make the first contact, and break any chance to see the geth as peaceful. It is true that Legion may be trying to change that, but all the previous history points to geth indifference about anything else but achieving their own goal.
I bet that if it wasn't for the Asari banning the use of AI we would have achieved a level of technology development and galactic expansion equal or even superior to the Protheans a long time ago. The fact that the Geth in their small corner of the galaxy have enough industrial capacity to build a Dyson Sphere is more than enough evidence of that. Even the Salarians, the second founding member of the current galactic society, uses AI when it's necessary.
I'm curious if there's a precedent, before the creation of the Geth, that convinced the Citadel Species that AI is too dangerous and thus provoking the current technological stagnation of the Galaxy. The only races that are advancing are the ones that ignore that limitation in one way or another.
No, the best solution is the geth leaving quarian space and live on space stations like Heretic Station. Then the quarians have a home, and the geth aren't slaves.
No, that leaves the quarians vulnerable and both sides mistrusting the other.
Daro'Xen will ensure the geth are controlled, and thus not dangerous. They can also be used to build new settlements for the quarians and provide security.
In my other post (top of 2nd page) I said my input in why I think that wouldn't work or can't happen.
Still since you probably don't wanna read it, the quick version is that geth would always try to grow in intelliegence and they will be seen as a threat from organic's point of view thus starting a war, and this will repeat itself infinite times until one side wins.
And that'd be probably be the geth, seeing their innate capacity to reproduce and survive (since they reproduce with tech around and they share minds and build consensus, as long as one individual survives there will always be more).
That shows, to me anyway, that Sovereign (thereby the Reapers) has no means to control the geth like they do organics. Sovereign was forced to bribe/ask for volunteers. That is why I'll pick them over the quarians if I have to.
Some of the people on the other topic argued that the geth are an abomination because they are unnatural. "The geth are not truly alive" was their argument. What do you guys have to say about that?
If they can feel, sense, or be self-aware, for me is alive. Who cares if they are made of another material, is no sense.
They are inorganic machines, we are organic machines
Sentient machines test my suspension of disbelief. Putting that aside, though, no, they are not abominations and should be entitled to self-determination just like any other sentient life.
What's abominable is that the Quarians used them as slaves and then tried to wipe them out when they broke their bonds.
The war may be going poorly for the Quarians, and they may have lost their homes, but they were the aggressors 300 years ago and that's the price of their transgressions.
The Quarians should accept Geth independence and the Geth should return the Quarian homeworld, or at least share it peacefully.
How dare anyone call the most intelligent and unique species in the entire galaxy an abomination. They are not only a technological marvel, but a social marvel in that they respect each others decisions unlike any other species in the galaxy.
During a conversation with Legion about the Geth's goals he states that they are building something similar to a Dyson Sphere. When its finished they are going to upload and network all Geth
The heretics followed Nazara because it offered them technology to help with that. The orthodox Geth disagreed. Their position being that sapient beings should develop on their own path and not one set by others.
Why am I stating the obvious and what everyone discussing this subject here knows?
Opinions, the Geth have them. Machines do not.
To answer the OP's original question - do I think they're an abomination? No. I think they're a still young life form brought into existence by accident.
(When their homeworld is finished and they upload, they will be the most intelligent being in existence. As an aside - my personal theory on this - its the Geth uploading to their 'Dyson Sphere' that will be instrumental in stopping the Reapers. (If I'm wrong, pretend you didn't read that bit))
So you think that the geth would actually enjoy being nothing but indentured servants like the ones on Illium? Yea, that quarian seemed thrilled with her situation. <_<
Yes. They'd be reprogrammed to want to serve the quarians unquestionably. It's no different than when you rewrote the Heretics.
"Approximately three centuries after the Morning War, the geth were approached by the ReaperNazara, also called Sovereign. It offered them technology that would aid them in achieving their goal, in exchange for their assistance in capturing the Citadel and letting the Reaper invasion begin. The majority of the geth dismissed the offer, deeming it better to accomplish their goal with their own technology rather than be dependent on another race’s technology.
Sovereign approached the geth with an offer: help me and will offer you technology to achieve your goal, giving you a reaper-like body. This implies that the offer was made to all geth, not just a small par of them. This was not an obscure deal made in a dark alley with only some geth, this was an offer made to all geth (they can read their own minds so they would anyhow) with very explicit terms, a service and a reward.
The heretics accepted the offer and in doing so entered in war with the organics, while orthodox declined the offer. To be able to decline an offer, one must first be aware of the terms of that offer, therefore, the orthodox geth did know fully what was the service the reapers demanded of them. The orthodox geth allowed the heretics to leave, and by doing so, they are complices of the acts of the heretics. The same way that you are complice if you know about a terrorist attack but say nothing, the geth could have at the very least, sent a legion-like terminal to warn the organics.
The geth has been three centuries ignoring the organics, but they could have contacted them if they were so concerned with peaceful coexistencel. Instead they allowed the geth heretics to make the first contact, and break any chance to see the geth as peaceful. It is true that Legion may be trying to change that, but all the previous history points to geth indifference about anything else but achieving their own goal." ___________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is a very interesting point. The Reaper Offer to the Geth is what caused the first ever Split in the Geth Consciousness.
The disagreement over such an important Question for them..( How shall we continue to Evolve, to Grow )... was and is a critical question for these beings. They were offered a possible shortcut to Transfiguration - a next step in Evolution.
They were offered Transfiguration in exchange for service - ( and now we know - enslavement ). Faced with such an important question - what was a Networked Consciousness split into factions.
This would be like my own consciousness dividing into two separate beings. What a shock this would be ! That other me over there - is also me. Will I kill my other self because we disagree on how to Evolve and grow ?
The Geth were unable to do that. The two new factions stopped speaking to each other ( I assume ) and moved apart. When Legion's loyalty mission comes up - it is revealed that the Heretic Geth have moved so far in their thinking as to now be willing to kill / subvert their other selves ( the Orthodox ) by forcibly changing Orthodox thinking to match that of the Heretics.
It that discovery that Legion ( and by extension all Orthodox Geth ) are finally able to break the consensus deadlock enough to allow Shepard to act to preserve Geth freedom and independence. They can't decide between forced conversion or destruction - but they do finally act against their other selves - the Heretics.
These interactions with Shepard ( and Tali ) also provide Legion with concrete examples that cooperation and co-existence with the other Milky Way Races might be a viable alternative to the total Isolationist stance of living beyond the Perseus Veil that the Orthodox Geth have maintained since the Dawn War. Of course, the other races would have to drop their hostility to the very existence of Geth in the Galaxy for that to happen. Can't wait to see how that plays out in Mass Effect 3 !
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
This conversation is also interesting as it touches on some great questions.
What is life ? The definition of life may be expanding - within the Mass Effect Universe. Sentients are aware of their surroundings. Sapients are capable of achieving wisdom. It seems to me that the Geth have the capability for both. The Geth made the tremendous leap from being tools able to take orders - to a shared networked consciousness with deep questions about their role in the Galaxy. They are evolving and changing.
Are the Geth some kind of existential threat to all life in the Galaxy ? The Geth are at least as much a potential threat as the other beings in the Galaxy armed with fleets and weapons. The Geth do not appear to be playing the role of Von Neumann probes, or Berzekers - that role is claimed by the Reapers. The Geth chose isolation and have remained isolated from other races ( except for the Heretic faction and Legion ).
Are the Geth always logical ? Is it logical to worship a Reaper as a god ? Does a god need prayers ? By all accounts Sovereign/ Nazara did not demand prayers, cared nothing for the Heretic's admiration, and wanted only an obedient armed force to serve its goals. If these prayers were freely offered -then perhaps there is something like emotion emerging in the Geth. ( See screen shot of Heretics worshipping... ) http://masseffect.wi...i/Geth#Heretics
Is Dancing logical ? Dancing Legion -> Dance is a means of expression. So I believe Legion dances - because he's bored and is entertaining himself. It looks like he's having fun. ( I hope to see more Legion dance moves - if happy times return to the M.E. Universe ! )
Legion is not always able to explain his motivations. This is apparent when Shepard asks about "Why use my old N7 armour ?". Legions non-answer to that question implies ( to me ) that there is something like admiration emerging in Legions view of Commander Shepard.
What is an abomination ? I agree with Inverness Moon that those beings that were devolved by the Reapers and turned into mostly mindless organic killing tools ( husks and others ) are loathsome foes. Now that we know that millions of sentient beings ( perhaps ALL of one race ) are required for their creation - the Reapers themselves are more abominable and loathsome than ever before. There's not much room for compromise with a being that looks at you and says.... "HELLO LUNCH ! "
Modifié par Major_Tao_Tau, 31 juillet 2011 - 12:56 .
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