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The Geth: Are they an abomination?

Débuté par Guest_Luc0s_* , juil. 30 2011 08:53

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#76
joriandrake
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 12:51

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Uzrbital wrote...

The geth wants peace, if I'm right. You heard what Legion said in ME2!

yes they want peace, heck they after the quarians left they still keep their original home nice and clean so they can go back wheneve they want


Geth are a sentient self-improving species, people who want them destroyed are like those who would try to kill all cats if they would become sentient oh Earth too, I would say they have too much racial pride and arrogance to realize two different sentient species can co-exist

#77
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 12:56

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joriandrake wrote...

yes they want peace, heck they after the quarians left they still keep their original home nice and clean so they can go back wheneve they want


Which is why they hang around and shoot anyone who comes near.

#78
joriandrake
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 12:59

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Saphra Deden wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

yes they want peace, heck they after the quarians left they still keep their original home nice and clean so they can go back wheneve they want


Which is why they hang around and shoot anyone who comes near.




as far I know the cultist geth are a whole different issue, and quarians always tried to kill of the Geth whenever they went back or scvouted the area, they never even tried to negotiate peace or accept the geth as an independent and equal sentient species

#79
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:00

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We want peace.

We will kill you if you come near.

#80
V-rex
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:01

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I'd never call the Geth an abomination. They are certainly different to organic life but they are still sentient and self aware and developing into a full fledged race. Sure they started as simple machines but it's not about where things start, it's about where they end.

If nothing else, either through poor judgement or total accident or random one-in-a-million chance, the Geth evolved the capacity to think for themselves. To question their own existence, and if Legion is any indication in the 300 years since that event they've even started to develop and evolve the capacity to feel emotion and perform actions that have no grounding in logic.

Whatever the case, if you ask me, Geth are now their own beings and as such no one can claim a right or ownership over them, anymore then I can walk over to the Elcor home planet and snap my fingers and demand they all belong to me.
Geth are people now, and though their origins aren't standard I'd hardly call them an 'abomination'.

#81
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:01

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Saphra Deden wrote...

RocketManSR2 wrote...

So you think that the geth would actually enjoy being nothing but indentured servants like the ones on Illium? Yea, that quarian seemed thrilled with her situation. <_<


Yes. They'd be reprogrammed to want to serve the quarians unquestionably. It's no different than when you rewrote the Heretics.

You're changing the way they think.




I think rewriting the geth was unethical, even though Legion didn't seem to care. I destroyed the heretic geth in most of my playthroughs.

I wouldn't want to brainwash or indoctrinate an organic species, so I don't see how doing the same thing to a synthetic species is okay.

#82
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:03

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V-rex wrote...

I'd never call the Geth an abomination. They are certainly different to organic life but they are still sentient and self aware and developing into a full fledged race. Sure they started as simple machines but it's not about where things start, it's about where they end.

If nothing else, either through poor judgement or total accident or random one-in-a-million chance, the Geth evolved the capacity to think for themselves. To question their own existence, and if Legion is any indication in the 300 years since that event they've even started to develop and evolve the capacity to feel emotion and perform actions that have no grounding in logic.

Whatever the case, if you ask me, Geth are now their own beings and as such no one can claim a right or ownership over them, anymore then I can walk over to the Elcor home planet and snap my fingers and demand they all belong to me.
Geth are people now, and though their origins aren't standard I'd hardly call them an 'abomination'.


Amen.

Well said.

#83
PrinceLionheart
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:03

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marshalleck wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
some grand, cosmic intelligence that decides the way things ought to be,


And by that I do of course mean God.


Even if you believe in God (which I do BTW) I don't consider them abominations. Honestly, they have their own culture much like the aliens have their own culture, and so far there's en no attempt from either side to peacefully negotiate. Hell, the Turians launched an attack on Humans in their very first encounter and were about to nuke the humans before the council intervened. Turians clearly aren't abominations.

I'm of the belief that the second you can question your existence or fight for your survival, you are a persona. Give or take. Image IPB

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 31 juillet 2011 - 01:04 .

#84
joriandrake
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:04

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heretics were different, they were already influenced by Sovereign, their reprogramming is justified as it just "un-corrupt" them, it is like they were already brainwashed then restored

#85
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:05

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Luc0s wrote...


I think rewriting the geth was unethical, even though Legion didn't seem to care. I destroyed the heretic geth in most of my playthroughs.


Then I'm glad you are consistent in the application of your morals. Many others aren't.

That said, rewriting the geth is a non-issue for me even though I blew them up (for reasons that had nothing to do with ethics).

#86
PrinceLionheart
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:10

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


I think rewriting the geth was unethical, even though Legion didn't seem to care. I destroyed the heretic geth in most of my playthroughs.


Then I'm glad you are consistent in the application of your morals. Many others aren't.

That said, rewriting the geth is a non-issue for me even though I blew them up (for reasons that had nothing to do with ethics).


I blew them up on the off-chance that Legion was lying. That, and like Legion said, they came to the decision to break away. Something seems off about forcibly converting them back.

#87
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:18

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


I think rewriting the geth was unethical, even though Legion didn't seem to care. I destroyed the heretic geth in most of my playthroughs.


Then I'm glad you are consistent in the application of your morals. Many others aren't.


Yeah well, I play as a Paragon (most of the time) and I actually found it rather silly that destroying the heretics was the renegade option, while rewriting was the paragon option. From my perspective, rewriting the heretics was the logical thing to do, while destroying them was the ethical thing to do. So in my opinion, it would have made more sense if destroying was paragon and rewriting was renegade.

Not that I cared though. It's not that I pick paragon options simply to be paragon. I pick the options that I PERSONALLY think is the most "paragon". In this case, I thought destroying the heretics was the more "paragon" thing to do.

#88
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:36

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Luc0s wrote...


Yeah well, I play as a Paragon (most of the time) and I actually found it rather silly that destroying the heretics was the renegade option, while rewriting was the paragon option. From my perspective, rewriting the heretics was the logical thing to do, while destroying them was the ethical thing to do. So in my opinion, it would have made more sense if destroying was paragon and rewriting was renegade.


To be honest, I think you've got it a bit backwards. Though I see where you are coming from.

Look at it like this: when you rewrite the Heretics you put your trust in the orthodox geth. Trusting others is a consistent aspect of Paragon Shepard.

When you blow them up you are mistrusting the orthodox geth, a consistent Renegade trait.

Though, this combined with your approach is what convinces me that this choice should have been completely Paragon/Renegade neutral.

#89
marshalleck
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:38

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marshalleck wrote...

Here's what you said:

"The geth are arguably abominations because they are not the creation of a divine being or the product of natural evolution; "

The definition of "divine being" is obvious, as are the implications for starting a religious flamewar. So I will abandon that fertile ground for the present, since it is against the forum rules. However, I think your statement about "natural evolution" is both presumptuous and fundamentally in error. Evolution is not a conscious process with an end goal in sight. It is, put very simply, gradual changes in an organism over time. Adaptation through natural selection. Those traits which are beneficial to an organism are passed to its offspring; those which are not, die off with the individual possessing the trait. 

Behavior of organisms work in much the same way. Behaviors which are beneficial and useful to the organism are retained and taught to the next generation. One of, if not the most ubiquitous traits of humans (and presumably should be true of the other spacefaring species in Mass Effect) is our use of tools. Over time, our tools become increasingly complex. As do organisms, I might incidentally point out. I would argue that the creation of tools *is* a natural occurence and byproduct of evolution; and thus, the emergence of an "artificial" (I would prefer the term synthetic) intelligence is also a natural evolution in its own right.  

Not an abomination.


I'm surprised nobody has refuted this. 

#90
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:41

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marshalleck wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Here's what you said:

"The geth are arguably abominations because they are not the creation of a divine being or the product of natural evolution; "

The definition of "divine being" is obvious, as are the implications for starting a religious flamewar. So I will abandon that fertile ground for the present, since it is against the forum rules. However, I think your statement about "natural evolution" is both presumptuous and fundamentally in error. Evolution is not a conscious process with an end goal in sight. It is, put very simply, gradual changes in an organism over time. Adaptation through natural selection. Those traits which are beneficial to an organism are passed to its offspring; those which are not, die off with the individual possessing the trait. 

Behavior of organisms work in much the same way. Behaviors which are beneficial and useful to the organism are retained and taught to the next generation. One of, if not the most ubiquitous traits of humans (and presumably should be true of the other spacefaring species in Mass Effect) is our use of tools. Over time, our tools become increasingly complex. As do organisms, I might incidentally point out. I would argue that the creation of tools *is* a natural occurence and byproduct of evolution; and thus, the emergence of an "artificial" (I would prefer the term synthetic) intelligence is also a natural evolution in its own right.  

Not an abomination.


I'm surprised nobody has refuted this. 


Why would anyone try to refute it? What you said make sense and I fully agree with it. I think the person who would try to refute your argument would essentially dig his/her own grave.

No, I don't want to sound a like a butt-kisser. I honestly agree with you in almost every single way.

#91
marshalleck
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:42

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 There are always contrary opinions on the BSN. :lol:

#92
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:45

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


Yeah well, I play as a Paragon (most of the time) and I actually found it rather silly that destroying the heretics was the renegade option, while rewriting was the paragon option. From my perspective, rewriting the heretics was the logical thing to do, while destroying them was the ethical thing to do. So in my opinion, it would have made more sense if destroying was paragon and rewriting was renegade.


To be honest, I think you've got it a bit backwards. Though I see where you are coming from.

Look at it like this: when you rewrite the Heretics you put your trust in the orthodox geth. Trusting others is a consistent aspect of Paragon Shepard.

When you blow them up you are mistrusting the orthodox geth, a consistent Renegade trait.

Though, this combined with your approach is what convinces me that this choice should have been completely Paragon/Renegade neutral.


Yeah well I trust the orthodox geth, but I'm afraid reintroducing the rewritten heretics back into the orthodox geth network might make things complicated later. The whole plan might backfire somehow, turning ALL geth into heretics, INCLUDING the orthodox geth.

As as I said earlier, rewriting just isn't ethical in my opinion.


I agree, the decision should have been neutral.

#93
GodWood
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:45

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No, but I they are guilty of mass genocide and thus must be punished and/or destroyed.

#94
BlackwindTheCommander
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:48

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If anything i find the Geth are the victims. I love the Quarians but I can't really feel bad about their forced exodus. The reacted poorly to the Geth's newly found intelligence.

#95
Guest_Luc0s_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:49

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GodWood wrote...

No, but I they are guilty of mass genocide and thus must be punished and/or destroyed.


And how exactly are the geth guilty of mass genocide?

Genocide is killing people with the purpose to wipe out an entire race or species. The geth didn't do this.
However, the Krogan did commit genocide (well, the Salarians did, they simply used the Krogan as their tools to commit genocide on the rachni).

So, shouldn't we destroy the Krogan and/or the Salarians instead of the geth? Hmmm?

Modifié par Luc0s, 31 juillet 2011 - 01:50 .

#96
spirosz
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:52

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V-rex wrote...

I'd never call the Geth an abomination. They are certainly different to organic life but they are still sentient and self aware and developing into a full fledged race. Sure they started as simple machines but it's not about where things start, it's about where they end.

If nothing else, either through poor judgement or total accident or random one-in-a-million chance, the Geth evolved the capacity to think for themselves. To question their own existence, and if Legion is any indication in the 300 years since that event they've even started to develop and evolve the capacity to feel emotion and perform actions that have no grounding in logic.

Whatever the case, if you ask me, Geth are now their own beings and as such no one can claim a right or ownership over them, anymore then I can walk over to the Elcor home planet and snap my fingers and demand they all belong to me.
Geth are people now, and though their origins aren't standard I'd hardly call them an 'abomination'.


This!

In my opinion, the Quarians deserved what happened to them, they did attack first - I understand why the attacked, being afraid of the unknown, but who knows what would of happened if they never attacked the Geth.  Also, what do you expect from them when the Quarians attacked?  They basically defended themselves and didn't even pursue the Quarians after the war. 

There's the obvious threat with the Geth and Soverign during ME1, but as Legion stated, they had a choice to leave or stay and there's always going to be a rebellious group in any form - even from synthetics, which surprised me.

That one recording Legion brought up, the one about the Geth asking about it's existence, really got to me because it just seemed so honest and I don't know, curious - like a child asking about stars and clouds and why we're here, etc. 

When it all comes down to it, I hope the Geth and Quarians can find peace because there's more at stake then just the Quarian homeworld.

#97
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:52

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I guess murdering 99% of all the quarians existence isn't genocide if you don't finish off that last 1%.

#98
Golden Owl
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 01:52

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Medhia Nox wrote...

Seeing as I put more value over a living organism than I do the nebulous concept of what is "sapient" - I do not consider the Geth's existence to be of any intrinsic value. Certainly not any more than a cactus, a dung beetle, or a chimpanzee.

Human value - to me - does not lie in the nature of our brains. I do not perceive humanity to be any more significant than said "cactus, dung beetle, chimpanzee" - and therefore, since the Geth do not qualify as a biological organism - their potential imitation of intelligence does not bring me to the conclusion that blowing up a Geth would be of the same value as killing a man (or crushing a cactus, dung beetle, or chimpanzee).

"Sapients" actually seems quite detrimental to the other 5 million animal and 250,000 plant species on our planet.

That being said - I have no reason to go out of my way to destroy the Geth. I don't destroy computers - and they imitate intelligence in every facet of their actions.

Throwing my computer on the ground would not give me any pause as to whether it was "wrong" - it would be only a matter of - "is there a reason to?"


Bolded: My thoughts exactly.....Though at these points we diverge:...

" I do not consider the Geth's existence to be of any intrinsic value.
Certainly not any more than a cactus, a dung beetle, or a chimpanzee. "

" their potential imitation of intelligence does not bring me to the
conclusion that blowing up a Geth would be of the same value as killing a
man (or crushing a cactus, dung beetle, or chimpanzee)."

I do see the Geth as a self aware being myself...albeit a different kind...but as a self aware being, I do consider them to share all rights with all other species....Thats my take anyway.

#99
PrinceLionheart
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 02:05

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Luc0s wrote...

GodWood wrote...

No, but I they are guilty of mass genocide and thus must be punished and/or destroyed.


And how exactly are the geth guilty of mass genocide?

Genocide is killing people with the purpose to wipe out an entire race or species. The geth didn't do this.
However, the Krogan did commit genocide (well, the Salarians did, they simply used the Krogan as their tools to commit genocide on the rachni).

So, shouldn't we destroy the Krogan and/or the Salarians instead of the geth? Hmmm?


And if I'm correct, the Turians attempted Genocide on the Humans. What happened between the Quarians and Geth was war. War isn't pretty. The Geth were fighting for survival and the Quarians were fighting to destory the Geth. As I said to Tali, I don't blame the Geth for fighting back since, for all intents and purposes, the Quarians instigated the "war" in the first place.

#100
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 31 juillet 2011 - 02:07

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A fight for survival does not in any way explain the complete eradication of almost the entire quarian species.

There came a point at which the quarians could not offer any effective resistance and yet the geth persisted in killing them down to the last man, woman, and child.
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