677 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@marshalleck - well then Mr. PHI 301 - go with Kant. He's so mysterious and Prussian.

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Toaster: Please don't drop me.

Me: You're a toaster. Shut up. *smash*

Me: That was easier than I thought. It's time to get a less talkative toaster.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...


1) That was never my point, my point is that the massive majority of the Quarian people think its wrong. Which is what we were talking about.

No we weren't. I said Tali was a fool for disagreeing with Xen. That goes for anyone who disagrees with her approach.

History does not prove anything. Mistakes can be corrected. More importantly, they can be learned from.

So everyone is a fool except for her? Interesting logic you have there.

That's the problem she isn't learning... she's trying to do what the Quarians have failed to do for over 300 years. She's just as foolish as the people who want to have a head on fight with the Geth they both have learned nothing.

[marshalleck]

Saphra Deden wrote...

A geth is a simulation at best. It has no mind. It has no body. No brain.

You can make a much better case for EDI having genuine consciousness because she has actual physical structures that needed to give her consciousness in the first place.

Geth do not have this. They are purely coding and nothing more!

That is the materialist argument in a nutshell; that intelligence, a mind, arises from its physical components (and chemistry). It is an implicit assumption of the hard determinism that Bog was advocating. 

[pablodurando]

GodWood wrote...

Intuaisho7996 wrote...
What makes the geth's free will and ability to think for themselves any less important than a human's, or turian's, or quarian's?

Nobody has free will

Determinism, yuck.  One question, what do  you think is the first cause that began everything thus determining all.

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Feelings are chemical reactions. Chemical reactions are mathematical equations.
Your logic fails.
Next.

They can be described mathematically, but they are not purely mathematics.

I covered this in the last thread about geth (the one supposed to be about the Illusive Man).

A geth is not a real being, it has no mind. It's just a very convincing simulation.

You can be described mathmatically, the whole universe can be described mathmatically.  You are not justified to consider yourself better than any piece of matter in the enitre universe.   If I really wanted to go far I can say that humans are no different than a rock and sand is more life filled than a human.  You can't determine if a species has a mind or not, for all you know lint has a mind capable of registering far more dimensions then you can.   It is illogical to compare what is a being and what is not for their is no proof other than antecedal evidence.

[LuxDragon]

I wonder who is arguing in favor of the geth more:

Geth sympathizers or Legion fans.

[Golden Owl]

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Inutaisho7996 wrote...

So? You're nothing more than electricity passing between synapses.

Much more complex than simple computer code.

I'm a thinking, feeling being. A geth is not. Geth are just mathematical equations. They feel nothing, they are nothing.

Then why did Legion partially fix itself with Shepard's armor? What mathematical calculation could have proven that to be rational? Rationally, it should have easily fixed the hole with something else long before it found Shepard's armor.

Legion...aka...the Geth are evolving, possibly becoming ever more self aware and I believe Legions choice in using Sheps armor is a display of the beginning developments of emotional reactions.

[pablodurando]

I'm a geth empathizer, notice my avatar isn't legion.

[pablodurando]

Is not the whole purpose of AI to create an independent race that makes its own choices. Every organic species could be considered an AI created through biology, the only difference with the geth is that the were created through technology, but they could reach the same path that organic species are on currently.

[marshalleck]

I don't think I am. Pain, for example, is electrical impulses from your nerves registering in your mind. The only difference perhaps are some of the instinctual physiological responses to the stimuli, such as snatching your hand away from a hot pan. Although even those could be hard-coded into a machine to prevent it doing damage to itself, in the same way a human might respond without conscious effort. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 juillet 2011 - 03:56 .

[pablodurando]

Saphra Deden wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

You can be described mathmatically,

No, I can't. You don't even know for certain what consciousness/awareness is. Nobody does.

Your conscince is just information.  Quantum mechanics tells us that everything is information including you.  Theoretically all information could be measured and calculate in some fashion. 

[Bogsnot1]

Saphra Deden wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

You can be described mathmatically,

No, I can't. You don't even know for certain what consciousness/awareness is. Nobody does.

Yet you claim that the Geth do not possess it, and they are simply programs.
Once again, you contradict yourself.

[AtreiyaN7]

No, why would they be an abomination? Like man, they evolved from something lesser until finally achieving sentience. They're like any other intelligent species as far as I'm concerned, and the quarians should have handled things better once confronted by the fact that the geth had developed awareness.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

No, we know that with Reaper tech and Geth assistance Geth may be capable of controlling the Geth (Though even that may not be permanent) The Quarians are using old tech on a more advanced being and they are using it against tech they have very little knowlwedge of at all. If the Quarians 300 years ago couldn't reprogram the Geth when their tech and knowledge were on the same level than they can't do it now.

If you're talking about Overlord Legion couldn't be controled so that shows that there's never been anything in ME history that has ever been shown that could permanetly control the Geth out side of Reaper tech/Geth assistance.

[marshalleck]

Saphra Deden wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I don't think I am. Pain, for example, is electrical impulses from your nerves registering in your mind. The only difference perhaps are some of the instinctual physiological responses to the stimuli, such as snatching your hand away from a hot pan. Although even those could be hard-coded into a machine to prevent it doing damage to itself, in the same way a human might respond without conscious effort. 

Yes, you could program a machine to behave as though it felt pain but obviously it would not feel actual pain.

Simulatin =/= the real thing.

Again though, if you were to perfectly model all the functions of the human brain, your subject would indeed be experiencing pain.

[Medhia Nox]

@marshalleck - but a machine would likely not be doing damage to itself by touching a stove. So for it to react by jerking back its hand would only be mimicry. If it possesses its own ability to think, it likely would not remove its hand at all.

[pablodurando]

Saphra Deden wrote...

pablodurando wrote...

Is not the whole purpose of AI to create an independent race that makes its own choices. Every organic species could be considered an AI created through biology, the only difference with the geth is that the were created through technology, but they could reach the same path that organic species are on currently.

The method of creation, the parts, the composition, are all important.

As I once asked Inverness Moon and he declined to answer:

Assume a talent artist decides to recreate on of Picaso's master works. The artist does such a perfect job that nobody can tell his piece is a copy and not an authentic Picaso work.

Is it a Picaso work? We might treat it as such becuase we can't tell the difference, but we'd be making a mistake.

It's the same with geth and the appearance of a mind.

If you write geth code down on paper you can work through the program manually and the geth will behave as though it were uploaded into a computer.

You could talk to it even... but it has no mind, no consciousness. It can't, it's just symbols on paper.

Clearly not the same as a person who has a complex brain, harnessing energy. Or even EDI who does something similar.

Why do you think geth aren't as authentic as organic species?  I don't want to bring in religion again, but do you believe that life was modeled?

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@marshalleck - but a machine would likely not be doing damage to itself by touching a stove. So for it to react by jerking back its hand would only be mimicry. If it possesses its own ability to think, it likely would not remove its hand at all.

Of course, if said machine had a hand made of carbon fibers and steel it wouldn't be fazed by a hot stove. But exposed to conditions which could damage those materials, the response would essentially be the same; sensory data triggering a motor response which shortcuts the conscious mind before serious damage can be done.

But anyways, yes, as Saphra pointed out this is drifting away from the geth.

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:05 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

No, we know that with Reaper tech and Geth assistance Geth may be capable of controlling the Geth...

If geth can do it anyone can.

We also have the example of Overlord.

In fact, A.I. Hacking works, it is just temporary.

It can be done.

Correction the Geth and Reapers did it... if you think a small group of Quarians using ancient tech are on the same level as them than that's amussing. Also we don't know if that is a truely permanent fix until we see ME3.

Legion couldn't be controled by overlord. You have to remember that the Geth everyone sees are the Heritics who are 5% of the core Geth. Geth intellegence and complexity is based off of their numbers. The Heritics by being only 5% are that much more simplistic and unintelligent. The fact Overlord could control them doens't mean they could control the real Geth which Legion is an example of.

A.I. Hacking is a game play mechanic. It would be the same thing as saying a human can survive being shot in the face three times when his shields go down.