677 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@marshalleck - but a machine would likely not be doing damage to itself by touching a stove. So for it to react by jerking back its hand would only be mimicry. If it possesses its own ability to think, it likely would not remove its hand at all.

Thats an interesting thought....I personally find it hard to imagine that a Geth may actually feel physical pain...maybe a feed back of sort (though not pain as we know it) that informs the Geth that this action, etc...is causing damage to it's structure, as for actual pain though?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Pain was an evolutionary creation to limit damage to the body nothing more nothing less. The Geth having sensors that tell them they are being damamged is the exact same thing as the nerves in us sending signals to our brain that we are being damaged.

[Medhia Nox]

@marshalleck - why would a machine possess a survival instinct that is not programmed into it by an outside source.

We assume that survival would be the most logical conclusion it would come to because that is the choice the human species has made (and we ascribe it to all biological life).

But - a machine is not biological life.

====

Everything is moving toward star dust - the logical conclusion is not to fight against the inevitable.

Humanity is not a logical creature - no matter how much it wants to be - or asserts that it is.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:13 .

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Correction the Geth and Reapers did it... if you think a small group of Quarians using ancient tech are on the same level as them than that's amussing.

Why would they be using ancient tech?

Probably because technological advancement could realistically stagnate. Because they spend so much time trying to keep older technology alive in order to maintain their fleet, the amount of time, brain power and resources that could go towards moving ahead technologically would be limited.

Not saying this is the case, but it's a simple and realistic enough scenario.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Correction the Geth and Reapers did it... if you think a small group of Quarians using ancient tech are on the same level as them than that's amussing.

Why would they be using ancient tech?

Because they're Quarians. Everything they have is second hand at best. Second hand techology going against a race that is constantly changing and updating itself is practically ancient tech. It would be like using the very first computer and trying to hack into the pentagon.

[Yakko77]

Is being "self aware" the same as being "alive"?  To me, being alive is to be "born" but is the Geth "awakening" their mechanical equivalent of being "born" or is all just a "math error"?  Life is "created", not "built", or is it?

Complicated to be sure.  I honestly don't know what they are but they are part of the galaxy regardless.  Also, Legion really impressed me when he described how the Geth treath the Quarian homeworld.  He referenced, Arlington National Cemetary and Auschwitz-Berkenau to name a couple and that they live not on the homeworld but on space stations.  My jaw literally dropped the first time I heard that.  It was about the biggest WTF moment in the whole game for me, in a good way.  The Geth never intended to be conquerors.  They have of course done the worst job possible letting this be known.  As little as organics know about them I think their knowledge of organics is equally ignorant.  Thankfully we have Legion to help fix that.  It one thing I hate about my Renegade playthrough as I sold him to Cerberus.

Modifié par Yakko77, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:16 .

[Raiil]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

Probably because technological advancement could realistically stagnate.

Why would it? The quarians don't live in a bubble.

Rael also seemed very excited by the development of his viral weapon, as were his subordinates. They were close to success before they got careless.

Uh... I'm pretty sure the answer to your question was in the rest of the post. <_<

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@marshalleck - why would a machine possess a survival instinct that is not programmed into it by an outside source.

We assume that survival would be the most logical conclusion it would come to because that is the choice the human species has made (and we ascribe it to all biological life).

But - a machine is not biological life.

I don't see how that matters. We're talking about intelligent machines here. If your point is to illustrate that they have instruction sets--yes. Obviously. 

Animals (including humans) have instruction sets as well. Sometimes they even circumvent them and act in novel, unexpected ways. 

[Golden Owl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Pain was an evolutionary creation to limit damage to the body nothing more nothing less. The Geth having sensors that tell them they are being damamged is the exact same thing as the nerves in us sending signals to our brain that we are being damaged.

It fulfills the same function but it is not the same thing.

Legs are just appendages that allow me to move about my environment.

Wheels are just appendages that allow a car to move about its enviornment.

Are wheels and legs the same thing?

Fingers are appendages that let me manipulate my environment.

Tentacles are appendages that let a squid manpulate its environment.

Are tentacles and fingers the same thing?

This is probably the only thing we would agree on in regards to the Geth Saphra

[Medhia Nox]

@Yakko77: For the Geth, a Creator-God, is an indisputable fact.

I would be curious to be told the kind of thoughts they might experience fighting their God.

It makes sense - since the Geth are represented as biological creatures with metal bodies - that they revere their Creator.

For the Geth - they do not question if they were created by a Will outside their own. They question why that "Will" decided to destroy what it had created.

[Medhia Nox]

@Marshalleck - and, like Legion, I do not ascribe any special significance to a machine... new or old. Legion chides Shepard for calling them Reapers when clearly they're just old machines.

Legion did not care one way or the other if you destroyed the Heretic Geth. It did not worry about the "loss of life". That's a biological concern. To Legion, it's like deleting useless data.

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Marshalleck - and, like Legion, I do not ascribe any special significance to a machine... new or old. Legion chides Shepard for calling them Reapers when clearly they're just old machines.

Legion did not care one way or the other if you destroyed the Heretic Geth. It did not worry about the "loss of life". That's a biological concern. To Legion, it's like deleting useless data.

Okay. I wasn't asking you to ascribe any special significance to a machine. I sense a communication gap widening here. 

[Raiil]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Marshalleck - and, like Legion, I do not ascribe any special significance to a machine... new or old. Legion chides Shepard for calling them Reapers when clearly they're just old machines.

Legion did not care one way or the other if you destroyed the Heretic Geth. It did not worry about the "loss of life". That's a biological concern. To Legion, it's like deleting useless data.

Legion didn't care how you destroyed the geth. It did care that the situation itself got handled. You think all humans care about things like collateral damage so long as the job gets done?

[SnakeStrike8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Marshalleck - and, like Legion, I do not ascribe any special significance to a machine... new or old. Legion chides Shepard for calling them Reapers when clearly they're just old machines.

Legion did not care one way or the other if you destroyed the Heretic Geth. It did not worry about the "loss of life". That's a biological concern. To Legion, it's like deleting useless data.

It did care one way or the other, actually. The reason it asked Shepard-Commander to make the call was because it couldn't reach consensus. Ideally, that tells me that its programs had enough individualism to make two different choices on the same problem, and argue each other to a standstill. Clearly some of its programs didn't see slaying the heretics as 'deleting useless data'.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Saphra Deden wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Because they're Quarians. Everything they have is second hand at best.

No, they have priorities, you know. The average quarian makes due with second-hand crap but the more important ones will be right on par with at least the galactic standard.

If quarians were so backwards and primitive they wouldn't be desirable as engineers elsewhere in the galaxy.

I would like to have some kind of evidence that says the Quarians have technology that is on par with the rest of the galaxy if you'd please. Everything we know about the Quarians is that everything they have in the fleet is second hand.

Quarians are desirable as engineers because everything they own breaks down and they have to fix it so obviously when it comes to broken down junk the Quarians would be the people to call. Do you think the every day machanic is capable of hacking into advanced computers?

[LilyasAvalon]

I don't think they're an abomination. Their creation may have been an abomination, but we're WAY past that now.

Legion is too adorable to be an abomination.

[marshalleck]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Marshalleck - and, like Legion, I do not ascribe any special significance to a machine... new or old. Legion chides Shepard for calling them Reapers when clearly they're just old machines.

Legion did not care one way or the other if you destroyed the Heretic Geth. It did not worry about the "loss of life". That's a biological concern. To Legion, it's like deleting useless data.

It did care one way or the other, actually. The reason it asked Shepard-Commander to make the call was because it couldn't reach consensus. Ideally, that tells me that its programs had enough individualism to make two different choices on the same problem, and argue each other to a standstill. Clearly some of its programs didn't see slaying the heretics as 'deleting useless data'.

And in a strange twist of irony, it was renegade Shepard who respected the heretic geth's self-determination by accepting them as an enemy and destroying them, rather than brainwashing them with a repurposed Reaper virus. Well done, paragons. :innocent:

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:32 .

[Medhia Nox]

@SnakeStrike8: Yes, because those other programs came to the conclusion that overwriting the data was the better option.

So - you either delete the data or overwrite it. You don't "kill them" or "enslave them".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:33 .

[VegasVance]

Luc0s wrote...

Some of the people on the other topic argued that the geth are an abomination because they are unnatural. "The geth are not truly alive" was their argument. What do you guys have to say about that?

The Geth are "alive" and as much of an "abomination" as the Commander is following the events of the second game. 

[Bogsnot1]

marshalleck wrote...
And in a strange twist of irony, it was renegade Shepard who respected the heretic geth's self-determination by accepting them as an enemy and destroying them, rather than brainwashing them with a repurposed Reaper virus. Well done, paragons. :innocent:

Not as bad as you think.
The Renegade option of killing them and accepting their self determination only took care of the one, known Heretic base. Any other bases which Legion was unaware, or any Heretics that were not in the base at the time, were left to live.
Paragons who "brainwashed" the Heretics sent out a signal via FTL comm buoys that would re-write all Heretic Geth within receiving range. That means they would either have to be offline, or well off the grid when that happened to avoid the effects.
While 5% of the Geth population may or may not be much, it does leave one less enemy for Paragons to fight. I guess Renegades just love kicking tin cans down the steps.

[marshalleck]

Hah, talk about wishful thinking.

Whatever helps you sleep at night and live with yourself, killer.

PS: 305,000 batarians and their slaves, lol

Modifié par marshalleck, 31 juillet 2011 - 04:48 .