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[ReiSilver]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Interesting theories on the Eluvians. Maybe each eluvian is used for different skills and such. Maybe some of them are communication devices. Maybe some are portals or doorways somewhere else as Morrigan suggested. Finn was under the impression they were also used to communicate.

We know in the Dalish Elf story in DAO, that Duncan realized that the mirror was tainted and darkspawn could get through it. We know that Morrigan (Warden) also went through one. In Merrill's mirror the one that Duncan saw was tainted, the demon on the other side was trying to come through into the living world. Which also suggests that Merrill and Duncan's mirror is somehow connected to the fade.

So the evidence so far does point to them being portal devices. I'm still not ruling out that they could be communication devices as well. Just like some golems seem to do different things when they are created. Some seem to be golems who are smiths, other Golems defenders or a battle golems like Shale, and let's not forget the Nexus Golem who sold things in the deep roads.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that different eluvians might do different things. We still don't know yet.

My theory is that as powerful ancient magical devices an Eluvian could be used for any number of things depending on the skill of the user. The Tevinters got them from the elves but only managed to figure out how to use them for communication, but the ancient elves may have not only been able to use them to travel but have been able to 'tune' it to connect to any number of places/planes

[whykikyouwhy]

This will be a long post, and for that I apologize, but I found myself pondering some things…

According to the wiki – “It is said that a long time ago, the Maker created the Fade as His first world. His first children were the spirits of the Fade and the Maker believed He had made them in His own image. Yet the Maker turned away from His first children, because while they could alter their world at will, they lacked a soul, and could only copy, not create or imagine for themselves. Dissatisfied with the result, He left the Fade behind, creating the world of Thedas instead.”

The wiki has this to say about the Old Gods – “the Old Gods were false. They turned mortals from worship of the Maker, recognized as the "First Sin". As a result, the Maker imprisoned them underground. Their minds continued to roam the Fade like any other dreaming individual's mind would, and they were able to contact the Magisters and teach them to use magic in hope that the magisters might free them.”

The Black City is supposed to be the one constant in the Fade. So before the Golden City became Black, was it a constant in the Fade as well? When the Old Gods were first imprisoned and their minds were freshly traversing the Fade, was the Golden City visible?

The wiki states this about Spirits of the Fade – “The malicious ones among the Maker's first children were jealous. They called out to the mortals, drawing their sleeping minds across the veil and saw the land that the Maker had created for them in their dreams. They coveted the spark within them, but did not understand it. They shape the Fade to create the land that they see in the minds of men, and seek to draw the spark from them without truly understanding where it might actually come from.”

So…if the Golden City was visible from the Fade, perhaps it was not the actual crossing of the threshold that corrupted it. Maybe when both the spirits called to mortals and gleaned what the living world was, they then shaped the Fade as a mirror. And the Golden City became Black from that reshaping alone since the hearts and souls of men may have been dark with envy, greed, and the like. But it was when the magisters actually managed to cross into the Golden-Black City that the taint was unleashed – it was no longer held in the spiritual realm, but could cross over into the world of men – the magisters being the conduit of sorts. Not exactly the cause of the taint, but the cause of it becoming rampant. Which then makes it so that mankind was the source of the taint all along. (Of course this then eschews the Chantry teachings of the Blight being a literal curse brought about by hubris.)

Which then pulls in the Eluvian theory – the Eluvian can supposedly transmit the Blight disease. So the magisters enter the City through an Eluvian (maybe a super amped up mirror – or an Eluvian in its more fresh and raw power), cross the threshold, become tainted, bring the taint back.

To tie in Kirkwall – it’s a conduit point, a threshold point. And maybe the location of an Eluvian. I don’t think that the Black City is, or was, Arlathan exactly, but the elves of Arlathan created the Eluvian. So there may be a mirror locked away where Arlathan once existed. And it’s possible that there was never a mirror in Kirkwall, but that the energies of the other Eluvian were directed on the city/location somehow in order to open that threshold. Possibly somewhere in the vicinity of the primeval thaig.

Again, apologies for the lengthiness. It’s speculation upon speculation.

[Merle McClure II]

I don't know, personally I don't believe that there ever was a Golden City, although I haven't played Legacy yet I've read that "Big C" talks about being promised a golden light and *A* golden city, not "THE" golden city.

Now, Big C is supposed to confirm that one of their Old Gods is the one promising them the power of the Gods, which to me just utterly smacks of being able to shape the Fade as Spirits do.

As for the Old Gods themselves, personally I just think that they are as they seem, extremely powerful and ancient Dragons who use some form of hibernation in order to achieve immorality ala the elven legends.

Elven gods you ask? Personally I don't think we have enough information to even venture a guess. Is that a gun to my head? Fine, then I'd guess that they are either a different faction of ancient Dragons or "merely" myths based off of various powerful elven/spirit mergers.

What of the Maker? Hmm, *IF* it exists at all then the Maker would simply be a vast and powerful Spirit with the remarkable ability to imagine and dream. The real question is why didn't/couldn't the Maker gift the Firstborn with the same ability? Did this all powerful ability need to reach across universes and rip the "Old Ones" into Thedas in order to copy their souls to create the mortal races?

Now what of the Chant and the Maker's Bride? I doubt Andraste was anything other than a mad woman who used the natural aftermathe of the First Blight to seek her revenge. The Chant is as true as possible when history is written by the victors and twisted for further political power.

The answer that I really want to know is how many alters to the Old Gods would be typically found in a Grey Warden fortress? I get the feeling that the Wardens have more than a few and perhaps that the entire "archedaemon death blow" thing is more akin to the Dark Ritual then they would have their own memebers realise. Perhaps Flemeth's ritual merely redirects the Archedaemon's soul to a vessal of her choosing as opposed to that of the Warden's choice.

A little scary to think that maybe none of the Old Gods were killed, merely reborn into a vessal of the Warden's choice.

[Sepewrath]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Shades of the  Full  Metal Alchemtist:Brotherhood  there

lol yeah that's the first thing that came to mind for me too. A system like that would be a good way to tie many of the major locations to this overarching plot.

I don't think the mirror Morrigan used links to the Black City, my guess would be Arlathan, she isn't powerful enough to go to the Black City and come back unscathed. And that is what Tamlen saw when he looked into the mirror, Arlathan was suppose to be the hub of the Elven civilization, its like Grand Central Station in NYC, almost every train goes there and you can get anywhere from there. I would think every Eluvian is connected to Arlathan in some shape or form and Arlathan had a means to connect to a number of places.

And I would agree with the above poster, a lot of people are attributing things to Fen Harel and all that, but I don't think most of that stuff is real. Maybe "The Maker" is real, but not the Chantry's Maker, just an extremely powerful spirit and basically the wants and desires of people, when given face has created these images of Old Gods and such.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

ReiSilver wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Interesting theories on the Eluvians. Maybe each eluvian is used for different skills and such. Maybe some of them are communication devices. Maybe some are portals or doorways somewhere else as Morrigan suggested. Finn was under the impression they were also used to communicate.

We know in the Dalish Elf story in DAO, that Duncan realized that the mirror was tainted and darkspawn could get through it. We know that Morrigan (Warden) also went through one. In Merrill's mirror the one that Duncan saw was tainted, the demon on the other side was trying to come through into the living world. Which also suggests that Merrill and Duncan's mirror is somehow connected to the fade.

So the evidence so far does point to them being portal devices. I'm still not ruling out that they could be communication devices as well. Just like some golems seem to do different things when they are created. Some seem to be golems who are smiths, other Golems defenders or a battle golems like Shale, and let's not forget the Nexus Golem who sold things in the deep roads.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that different eluvians might do different things. We still don't know yet.

My theory is that as powerful ancient magical devices an Eluvian could be used for any number of things depending on the skill of the user. The Tevinters got them from the elves but only managed to figure out how to use them for communication, but the ancient elves may have not only been able to use them to travel but have been able to 'tune' it to connect to any number of places/planes

Exactly.

I'm also curious about the Eluvian mirror in the Black Emporium.  With this mirror a person is able to change their appearance.  Which goes to show that the mirrors can be used for many things that Bioware wishes to introduce into the game.  Was the mirror included in the Black Emporium as an addition to the lore on the mirrors showing that a person could change their appearance?  For me the answer is yes, and not just a tool for the user to have if they don't like their pc's appearance outside of the CC. Bioware did a very clever trick with the mirror for the mechanics of the game and also for the lore of the game.   

So now we have mirrors that can change a characters looks, be a communication device, and also used as portals.  I also agree that the skill of the user would be involved.   The full knowledge on the mirrors has to be in fallen city of the immortal elves.  Flemeth has to hold this secret and I think this is what Morrigan is trying to accomplish.  Gaining the knowledge of immortality, maybe Flemeth wouldn't tell her and it's Morrigan's quest given to her by her mother that she has to learn the secret on her own.   Morrigan even says that her mother wanted her to see and experience the world.  So I don't agree that Flemeth was holding Morrigan in bondage or going to possess her.  The explanations from both just don't add up.  Flemeth or Morrigan both need to enter Arlathan for some reason and they need the soul of one of the old gods to do this.  I'm guessing to revive the Golden City which could be the city of Arlathan itself which many people have speculated. 

[Raya Aroukii]

The eluvians are a mystery, but who's to say that the ancient elves were the ones to create them? They could've received them as a gift from their gods, or even obtained them from a conquest of war. The ancient elves had an empire. One race usually doesn't have an empire, unless they conquer all others. Elves don't have to be peaceful...

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

No the elves are not peaceful at all. We do know that an elven uprising may very well be in progress. I think they'd be foolish to side with the Qunari like we saw in DA2.

You're also right that the Eluvians could also be from the gods. That would be interesting to learn this.

@ Why

There is a Eluvian in Kirkwall now.  Merrill brought it from Ferelden.  I'd like to know how she got that thing there!!!!!   

Plus, the one in the Black Emporium.   So there are actually two in Kirkwall and one still in Ferelden.  The one Morrigan used.  There could also be another one in Ferelden when you do the quest to kill all the bloodmages in Denerim.  If you notice, the leader of the bloodmages in Denerim is standing and casting right in front of one or what could be one.  This one isn't as big as the one in the elven ruins.   

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 01 août 2011 - 02:53 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

This will be a long post, and for that I apologize, but I found myself pondering some things…

According to the wiki – “It is said that a long time ago, the Maker created the Fade as His first world. His first children were the spirits of the Fade and the Maker believed He had made them in His own image. Yet the Maker turned away from His first children, because while they could alter their world at will, they lacked a soul, and could only copy, not create or imagine for themselves. Dissatisfied with the result, He left the Fade behind, creating the world of Thedas instead.”

To add a few more details, He created the world of Thedas (with life, apparently) and separated it from the Fade through the Veil. What I find totally odd is why in the name of whatever He would allow interactions between the two worlds. And why, further, "create" a substance like lyrium to allow that to happen "consciously." What could have been His motive?

The wiki has this to say about the Old Gods – “the Old Gods were false. They turned mortals from worship of the Maker, recognized as the "First Sin". As a result, the Maker imprisoned them underground. Their minds continued to roam the Fade like any other dreaming individual's mind would, and they were able to contact the Magisters and teach them to use magic in hope that the magisters might free them.”

A rather convenient story, I'd think. Again, imprison them but allow them to have access to "both" worlds He just created? The stories to me don't really add up. Unless, the Chantry is suggesting that the whole idea behind it was to test His new creations.

I'm sorry. I know your intention in stating all this was to have a basis for your theory, but still I couldn't help myself.

The Black City is supposed to be the one constant in the Fade. So before the Golden City became Black, was it a constant in the Fade as well? When the Old Gods were first imprisoned and their minds were freshly traversing the Fade, was the Golden City visible?

The Chantry seems to think of the Golden City (and hence the Black City also perhaps) as something apart from the Fade and the mortal realm. Apparently, the Golden City was once the home of the spirits also, until He became displeased with their lack of creativity, and "expelled" them from the Golden City to the Fade. This directly suggests that the rules of the Fade needn't apply to the Golden City. Although, it's anyone's guess why this "constant" black form should be visible from the Fade. And, not to mention, where did this this Fade actually came from.

The wiki states this about Spirits of the Fade – “The malicious ones among the Maker's first children were jealous. They called out to the mortals, drawing their sleeping minds across the veil and saw the land that the Maker had created for them in their dreams. They coveted the spark within them, but did not understand it. They shape the Fade to create the land that they see in the minds of men, and seek to draw the spark from them without truly understanding where it might actually come from.”

Yes, that is the explanation.

So…if the Golden City was visible from the Fade, perhaps it was not the actual crossing of the threshold that corrupted it. Maybe when both the spirits called to mortals and gleaned what the living world was, they then shaped the Fade as a mirror. And the Golden City became Black from that reshaping alone since the hearts and souls of men may have been dark with envy, greed, and the like. But it was when the magisters actually managed to cross into the Golden-Black City that the taint was unleashed – it was no longer held in the spiritual realm, but could cross over into the world of men – the magisters being the conduit of sorts. Not exactly the cause of the taint, but the cause of it becoming rampant. Which then makes it so that mankind was the source of the taint all along. (Of course this then eschews the Chantry teachings of the Blight being a literal curse brought about by hubris.)

Your suggestion that the Golden City turned black even before the magisters of Tevinter entered it and the explanation for it is an interesting one.

However, my mind seems unable to make that connection from the spirits of the Fade shaping the Fade to mirror the mortal realm to the supposed corruption of the Golden City to become the Black City, because of the supposed "dark" natures of men's minds, which the spirits supposedly looked into.

Let me elaborate. As I said a few paragraphs above, the Chantry itself seems to regard the Golden City (the seat of the Maker) as apart from the realm of the Fade. The Maker apparently has abandoned the Fade to its own devices. He now, however, seems to be judging the actions of men. So, that being the case, I'd think the Chantry's explanation seems the more sound - the actions of the magisters (a few of the many men to be sure) in attempting to enter the Golden City could have brought about corruption of the Golden City.

I don't believe any of the Chantry's versions, but at least not all of it is contradictory.

Which then pulls in the Eluvian theory – the Eluvian can supposedly transmit the Blight disease. So the magisters enter the City through an Eluvian (maybe a super amped up mirror – or an Eluvian in its more fresh and raw power), cross the threshold, become tainted, bring the taint back.

There is the suggestion that the magisters never really learned the full use of the Eluvian, in that they concluded that it was just a communication device. But perhaps not all is known about the magisters - so it is a possiblity. Assuming of course the Eluvian can lead to the Golden City.

To tie in Kirkwall – it’s a conduit point, a threshold point. And maybe the location of an Eluvian. I don’t think that the Black City is, or was, Arlathan exactly, but the elves of Arlathan created the Eluvian. So there may be a mirror locked away where Arlathan once existed. And it’s possible that there was never a mirror in Kirkwall, but that the energies of the other Eluvian were directed on the city/location somehow in order to open that threshold. Possibly somewhere in the vicinity of the primeval thaig.

Again, quite possible.

EDIT: Adding minor details.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 01 août 2011 - 03:21 .

[Sepewrath]

I don't really count that one in the Black Emporium, I don't think that is really suppose to be part of the story. And everything cant be laid on some god, give people some credit, I would say the elves made the mirrors themselves, they didn't descend from the sky or come delivered by a golden chariot lol.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Merle McClure II wrote...

Now, Big C is supposed to confirm that one of their Old Gods is the one promising them the power of the Gods, which to me just utterly smacks of being able to shape the Fade as Spirits do.

And why would the magisters want to shape the Fade? I think the power of the gods is actually a reference to immortality. The magisters were probably promised eternal life.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 01 août 2011 - 03:27 .

[Merle McClure II]

I figure that shaping the Fade would give them much greater magical abilities then Mages currently have without having to sacriface one's self to the rule of a spirit, after all, if I'm remembering currectly mana is basically the amount of "Fade Stuff" that a Mage can benchpress, so having a spirit's raw ability to shape it at whim should give a mortal Mage nearly limitless Mana amoung other things.

[Macropodmum]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

There is a Eluvian in Kirkwall now.  Merrill brought it from Ferelden.  I'd like to know how she got that thing there!!!!!   

She only brought the shard of Eluvian from there, she has rebuilt the whole thing from the shard apparently...

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Macropodmum wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

There is a Eluvian in Kirkwall now.  Merrill brought it from Ferelden.  I'd like to know how she got that thing there!!!!!   

She only brought the shard of Eluvian from there, she has rebuilt the whole thing from the shard apparently...

Are you sure?  I seem to recall Merrill saying that she brought the mirror from Ferelden and she repaired the mirror with a shard that she used blood magic on.  The demon told her how to untaint the mirror with the shard using blood magic somehow.  

Why would a demon be concerned about the taint? 

I do believe that we have a dialogue option that comes up and this is when Hawke can ask Merrill if the mirror is evil or will harm people.  She mentions Tamlen in this convo if I'm not mistaken.  I think Anders is also present and isn't with the rest of the party in Merrill's house when this convo happens.   Anders was standing right behind me and he makes a wise crack about blood magic.   Nobody else in my party is with us, they are by Merrills front door during this convo.  This is the convo for the quest to agree to help her repair the mirror and get the tool from the Dalish.  It's in Act II.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 01 août 2011 - 04:35 .

[Macropodmum]

I am pretty sure, I do remember something about it although I can't say exactly from where for sure (it may have been in one of the conversations with her).

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Sepewrath wrote...

I don't really count that one in the Black Emporium, I don't think that is really suppose to be part of the story. And everything cant be laid on some god, give people some credit, I would say the elves made the mirrors themselves, they didn't descend from the sky or come delivered by a golden chariot lol.

Well they might have if their Halla can fly?  So the Dalish had a major amount of gold for Merrill's clan to make it to Sundermont and Kirkwall on ships.   I don't see Meredith and the Viscount allowing Dalish elves into the city.  I'm guessing  they flew and killed their Halla from exhaustion from the trip or Merrill killed all of the Halla with her contact with the Demon.  Maybe even the keeper being turned into a demon and Merrill got blamed for it. 

The new Arvals of Merrills clan were different from the ones in DAO.  They have sails on them now.  In DAO they just looked like gypsy wagons.  So their ships might be able to travel over land and sea.   A keeper might also have a spell to change the Arvals according to the needs of the clan.

I remember thinking in DAO when encountering the Dalish for the first time.  I keep thinking how in the world do they get through the forest in those large wagons?

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 01 août 2011 - 04:50 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Merle McClure II wrote...

I figure that shaping the Fade would give them much greater magical abilities then Mages currently have without having to sacriface one's self to the rule of a spirit, after all, if I'm remembering currectly mana is basically the amount of "Fade Stuff" that a Mage can benchpress, so having a spirit's raw ability to shape it at whim should give a mortal Mage nearly limitless Mana amoung other things.

I will not deny the possibility. However, I think it does not follow that, if one is able to shape the Fade, he/she/it would have better magical abilities. I always figured that the ability to focus  the energies of the Fade better (willpower or whatever that means) gives a mage more mana. And lyrium augments the mana artifically.

Spirits already have the ability to shape the Fade. They do it not because they want more power, but, from how it appears, because they want to mimic the mortal world. And in any case, the magisters could simply have learnt the ability from the spirits - if the knowledge was transferable.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Macropodmum wrote...

I am pretty sure, I do remember something about it although I can't say exactly from where for sure (it may have been in one of the conversations with her).

I'll watch for this convo the next time I playthrough.  Actually, I have a character in Act II right now.  I don't think it has come up yet.  I've been to busy playing Legacy. 

[Merle McClure II]

Spirits are "born" with the ability to shape the Fade to their whims, it's part of their nature. However I don't think we've ever seen a mortal with that ability, after all "their gift" from the Maker according to the chant is the ability to imagine and create.

In other words, I totally disagree that the Mages of yore could have simply "learnt" a spirit's ability to shape the Fade no matter how powerful they were, hence the attempt to physically enter the Fade and wrest the power of the Gods from heaven itself.

I do agree that a mage's will does allow him to channel increasing amounts of mana, but I imagine that having the ability to actually shape the Fade would allow said mage to "refine" his mana to have much more power.

To use a car as an example, "Mana" is how much gas your fueltank holds, shaping the Fade would give you much, much better MPG.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Merle McClure II wrote...

Spirits are "born" with the ability to shape the Fade to their whims, it's part of their nature. However I don't think we've ever seen a mortal with that ability, after all "their gift" from the Maker according to the chant is the ability to imagine and create.

I did qualify my statement with "if the knowledge was transferable"...

In other words, I totally disagree that the Mages of yore could have simply "learnt" a spirit's ability to shape the Fade no matter how powerful they were, hence the attempt to physically enter the Fade and wrest the power of the Gods from heaven itself.

Yes, perhaps the knowledge of shaping the Fade couldn't have been learnt.

I do agree that a mage's will does allow him to channel increasing amounts of mana, but I imagine that having the ability to actually shape the Fade would allow said mage to "refine" his mana to have much more power.

My question was why would shaping the Fade have anything to do with more power? To have more power, it ought to be "more of the Fade," if anything.

To use a car as an example, "Mana" is how much gas your fueltank holds, shaping the Fade would give you much, much better MPG.

The analogy assumes "how much" of gas. What you're suggesting is shaping the Fade by "putting more of it" or "concentrating it" in some regions. If that is the case, then it could be true. But what the spirits do isn't that, exactly. They re-shape the Fade by moving things around - like shaping it into circular, rectangular, etc. forms. And it is not as if they have more command over the power of what they shape - it is just that they shape it according to some image.

It is more about "form" than "putting more of it," I'd imagine. And the reason why the spirits do that is different.

[In Exile]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
And why would the magisters want to shape the Fade? I think the power of the gods is actually a reference to immortality. The magisters were probably promised eternal life.

Which they got. Just not how they thought they would. 

[stonemyst]

Merle McClure II wrote...

Spirits are "born" with the ability to shape the Fade to their whims, it's part of their nature. However I don't think we've ever seen a mortal with that ability, after all "their gift" from the Maker according to the chant is the ability to imagine and create.

In other words, I totally disagree that the Mages of yore could have simply "learnt" a spirit's ability to shape the Fade no matter how powerful they were, hence the attempt to physically enter the Fade and wrest the power of the Gods from heaven itself.

I do agree that a mage's will does allow him to channel increasing amounts of mana, but I imagine that having the ability to actually shape the Fade would allow said mage to "refine" his mana to have much more power.

To use a car as an example, "Mana" is how much gas your fueltank holds, shaping the Fade would give you much, much better MPG.

Well Feneral is a dreamer and he has the will to give shape to the fade from our realm. I Do believe the darkcity is in the deep roads. That is why larius and janica both were happy as if a part of the magister is in them still. Larius was happy you freed him. and Janica said she feels like a new person. Both had a evil grin. I am expecting we will see either one of them again in the deep, Remember the wardens know were the darkcity is. but getting there is another story. I see us going to the fade location the source of the nexus. I beleive it will be below Orlasis. Just as the nexus golem said "" below orlasis. In the end we will need to kill all the remaining magisters and I bet there is still one in the black. Were the true source is. I have made several posts on the black city and our dao map of the deeproads not being finished. I saw a golem and what looks to be a mirrored city on the old dao map of the deep and I believe that city to be arlathan or darkcity  and we know that from arcane warrior gem from dao that elves and magisters ran from something worse but it could not remember. Maybe the magisters are heros and sinking the city saved us all and morrigan want to raise it back. this is all just an idea but Im sure we will be killing more magisters of old and find our selfs in a part of the fade to do it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

In Exile wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...
And why would the magisters want to shape the Fade? I think the power of the gods is actually a reference to immortality. The magisters were probably promised eternal life.

Which they got. Just not how they thought they would. 

That is an interesting thought. I believe you're referring to Corypheus. I do not know the exact details (not having played the Legacy DLC), but what I could understand from discussions here is that his "essence" could transfer to others - darkspawn/gray wardens perhaps? But I wonder if all the original magisters had similar fates.

[Rifneno]

Since we've got confirmation on the Black City/darkspawn origin now, my money is on it having to do with the Primeval Thaig. That place was just... alien compared to real dwarven thaigs, and never explained. There was also a codex from there that mentioned an entire thaig, or rather everyone in it, simply disappearing without a trace. And then there's this beauty:

"We who are forgotten, remember,

We clawed at the rock until our fingers bled,

We cried out for justice, but were unheard,

Our children wept in hunger,

And so we feasted upon the gods.

Here we wait, in aeons of silence.

We few, we profane."

Something horrible happened, we don't know what, and they "feasted upon the gods" in desperation. .... Sleep tight.

[whykikyouwhy]

Rifneno wrote...

Since we've got confirmation on the Black City/darkspawn origin now, my money is on it having to do with the Primeval Thaig. That place was just... alien compared to real dwarven thaigs, and never explained. There was also a codex from there that mentioned an entire thaig, or rather everyone in it, simply disappearing without a trace. And then there's this beauty:

"We who are forgotten, remember,

We clawed at the rock until our fingers bled,

We cried out for justice, but were unheard,

Our children wept in hunger,

And so we feasted upon the gods.

Here we wait, in aeons of silence.

We few, we profane."

Something horrible happened, we don't know what, and they "feasted upon the gods" in desperation. .... Sleep tight.

This may not be the most concrete theory (it's early, I need more coffee, etc), but do you think that the lyrium idol/relic could have contained, or been empowered by, the essence of a magister? That might explain how it "spoke" to both Bartrand and Meredith - appealed to their darkest desires, their more negative traits, their deep fears.

Perhaps a magister was in the thaig to enter the Golden-Black City (calling it both, just in case) and was somehow imprisoned in the relic, or trapped himself there as a means os preservation. The evil that radiated from the idol afterwards essentially confined and wiped out the denizens of the thaig. The profane may be dwarves or elves or some beings that, while trapped, were forced to eat pieces of the idol (we know Bartrand was feeding chunks of it to his servants - we just don't know what would have become of them decades or centuries afterwards).

Just a wild theory. Seems that if the Primeval Thaig is involved as some sort of threshold to the City, the idol played a part in some way, shape or form.